The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: bloodstone on October 13, 2013, 03:04:52 PM

Title: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: bloodstone on October 13, 2013, 03:04:52 PM
A question that has been puzzling me for some time now is, why are Muslim women so much more modest (Godly speaking) and respectful of their men than Christian women today are? Christian women seem to have no modesty at all, showing just much skin as unsaved women do. At least most of them. Especially with these little bathing suits and low cut blouses that they pretend are proper for Christian women to wear. To tell you the truth, when I watch stories of Muslim women overseas on TV, they are shocked at the amount of skin Christian women show. It reminds me of the way the Bible speaks of the women in the Old Testament. I'm starting to think we Christians have lost something not bad, but something good from the past. Am I off base? Does anyone beside me notice this lack of modesty?
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Cecil on October 15, 2013, 09:40:12 PM
 Christian men do not dress like Muslim men and yet know one questions their dress and grooming.
Modesty is the principle that all Christians strive to attain to.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: bloodstone on October 15, 2013, 10:16:49 PM
Christian men do not dress like Muslim men and yet know one questions their dress and grooming.
Modesty is the principle that all Christians strive to attain to.

I don't know what you are talking about, but I do know it has nothing to do with my questions about the immodesty of western "Christian" women. In dress, in dance in what they enjoy, in what they talk about, the list is endless. Why are Muslim women so much more modest (Godly speaking) and respectful of their men than Christian women today are? That's the only question I'm interested in. Not a justification of it, but why it is. Christian women in general seem to have no modesty at all. When did it become proper for Christian women to have their breasts falling out of their blouses, or showing just much skin as unsaved women do. I guess I'm not getting any "legitimate" responses because Christians feel guilty about it or they just want to ignore this modern phenomenon in the Church.

Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Sojourner on October 16, 2013, 03:40:06 AM
I guess I'm not getting any "legitimate" responses because Christians feel guilty about it or they just want to ignore this modern phenomenon in the Church.

There may be a third option. That we agree with you to some degree but have no answer as to why.  :Say_what:

 It seems like it may be unchanging culture over there where they've remained living in the past and so retained some of the moral values of the past. By contrast, western culture has gone in the toilet, and western values and morals right along with it. Progress and modernization isn't always a good thing.

But in the long run, it doesn't make them better in any way, because the wrong gospel is as good as no gospel or a declining gospel.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Kyle on October 16, 2013, 05:33:38 AM

Because Christian women and men today are amoral. They don't look at things in terms of whether it is moral or immoral, but in terms of whether they can find a preacher who'll say it's not a sin. You find one preacher that says it's OK to wear a skirt 5 inches above the knee and that's all that is required. You find one preacher to say that a man playing the lottery is not a sin and that's all that is required. They're both amoral and don't understand morality as people did many years ago.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformer on October 17, 2013, 02:15:55 AM

Well, Islam does lay down a proper code of behavior, which is primarily intended to safeguard the modesty, dignity and honor of men and women. I guess at this point I should start ducking for cover :)

Christianity once did, but hasn't done that since the 50s. That's when the value system started changing on a country-wide level. The new modernism with Christians compromising chastity and moral values of Christ with the new freedoms and values of society at large.

I don't think it's Muslim women per se, but the old fashioned morality that was once pretty much the norm worldwide. Let's not forget, we were all created in the image of God, and while we have lost that because of sin, there is still that natural God breathed law and morality in every soul. It's "this" morality that causes Muslim women who have not tasted on the fruit of the west (so to speak) to understand the goodness of moral women. And that's what Christian women have lost when it started choosing the way of the world (of freedom) instead of the way of the Bible (of a bondservant to Christ).

Let's face it, not just Muslims, but all women were more moral (I'm speaking generally) than they are today. Yes, men also. Because there is no light of the Church shinning in the world to brighten man's darkened soul. Christians are too busy being offended to see the immorality in the world, much less the Church.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Wayne on October 17, 2013, 03:10:13 AM
We still have moral women in the Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch Church areas. Even some Catholics who live in rural South America also keep themselves chaste. So it's not only Muslim women who put their faith ahead of modern dress and moral behavior. Yes, it's true a lot of Muslim women are amongst them, but they are not the only ones.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Dwight on October 17, 2013, 07:41:53 AM

I wouldn't want to put forth any idea that Islam is a moral religion for women, so I won't comment except to say that Christian women are falling. That much is clear. But before you women get upset, Christian men have already fallen.

Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Jeremy on October 17, 2013, 07:57:25 AM
This is very much related to this thread:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=3055.0

Modesty and Christian women. It seems we mostly agree that there needs to be some restoration.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maurice on October 17, 2013, 10:45:55 AM
A question that has been puzzling me for some time now is, why are Muslim women so much more modest (Godly speaking) and respectful of their men than Christian women today are?

The simple answer is, Muslim women have more faith. Hard to believe, but true.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: docholl on October 17, 2013, 11:46:47 AM
 Faith In What ?
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maurice on October 17, 2013, 12:02:04 PM
Faith In What ?

In their god of course. Christian women have no faith in their god, else they wouldn't ignore his word concerning modesty. But you tell me why Christian women wear breast revealing blouses and dresses way above the knee. Because they have faith god wants them to? The only faith they have is in their dress attracting men's eyes.



Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: docholl on October 17, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
 I Don't Think It's Faith , I Think It's Fear  :hammerhead:
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maurice on October 17, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
I Don't Think It's Faith , I Think It's Fear  :hammerhead:


Hmmmmm. So you're saying women don't wear low cut blouses to attract eyes to a certain area? Or short dresses to attract eyes to the legs?  :Say_what:
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: John on October 17, 2013, 08:36:13 PM
Before Muslim women are praised for their constraint in not dressing provocatively consider that their societal norms require this - by their religious law backed up by an entire societal structure. The consequences for disobedience are severe.

Most Christian women live in an entirely different environment wherein their secularized societal norms embrace carnality and celebrates the sexualization of women. Tremendous pressure is exerted throughout society and imposed on all women to think, act, and behave in a brazenly godless fashion - to the applause of a secularized godless male dominated society.

No doubt, if Muslim women can be freed from the dictates of their dress code without fear of retribution, many would not hesitate to behave in identical fashion.

Christianity does not require women to dress in a burlap sack but it does require women to dress modestly and honorably - which can be done attractively and with full femininity yet without exuding sexuality or dressing to gain undue physical attention.

If the church doesn't press the issue of purity in dress, which it doesn't, then the congregation will slide downward into the carnal fashions of the world until it becomes standard fare within Christian circles for women to dress like tramps. Where is the Christian males and church rulership - isn't their silence simply a commendation and secret encouragement for the sexual dress practices within the church?

You can be sure most professing Christians haven't a clue as to what is proper attire (where would they learn this?) and would be bewildered and offended if the church leadership insisted they cover up. Pastors are hardly willing to lose a high percentage of their offering monies (for most, church is a business that needs to turn a profit) over something nobody else in the church seems to care about (and probably likes).

john
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Trevor on October 18, 2013, 03:27:05 AM
Let me add my two cents. I will agree that there likely is some element of fear involved. But that doesn't detract from the fact that even out of these societies, away from the fear of retribution, Muslim women still are decidedly more sexually moral and modest than their counterparts. That's a fact that cannot be denied. So it's not all fear, it's their abiding in their religious beliefs. Muslims here wear the same modest clothing. I'm not saying women should cover from head to toe, I'm saying they recognize it is ungodly to dress like women dress today. And here they have absolutely no fear that if they don't they'll be harmed. It's not fear that keeps them dressed like that, it's their religion, beliefs and faith. False as it is, it still is really the determining factor.

A perfect example is what's in the news lately about this 16 year old girl that was shot in the head by the Taliban years ago for wanting to go to school and have more rights for women. She and her whole family live in England now and they have accepted all the modern lifestyle changes. But she and her family in England still wear modest clothing, and she and her mother have publicly said the only thing that shocks her and her family (negatively) was the way the women in the West/Europe cavort around shamelessly in tight or very little clothing, and that they had no intention of following suit. It's not fear that keeps her clothed modestly, it's the faith in her religion, moral values and her training of what is respectful and modest for women to wear. I agree with what others who have posted have said. Both the Church and Christian women are being influenced by society, rather than faith in God's word. Christian training today has failed miserably.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
 
This is Godly training that this country once would abide by, and passed down to their children, but which is now all but absent from Christian homes and Churches. My problem is, there is no outcry against it. No preacher standing up and preaching a sermon on it.  John says they'll lose their people. And that may be true. But I don't even hear Christians in general having a problem with it, or parents for that matter. Coming to this forum was the first I've heard about it by anyone in years.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Dryfus on October 18, 2013, 05:27:45 AM
A question that has been puzzling me for some time now is, why are Muslim women so much more modest (Godly speaking) and respectful of their men than Christian women today are?

The simple answer is, Muslim women have more faith. Hard to believe, but true.

 Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Melanie on October 19, 2013, 04:08:13 AM
A question that has been puzzling me for some time now is, why are Muslim women so much more modest (Godly speaking) and respectful of their men than Christian women today are?

The simple answer is, Muslim women have more faith. Hard to believe, but true.

I agree it is a type of faith, but that kind of faith is worthless. Moral dress code and all.

 Jamess 2:10
 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law."

So if you wear a modest clothing, but then don't know Christ, what good is it to wear modest clothing? None. You might as well eat, drink and be merry, because tomorrow you die.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Cecil on October 19, 2013, 09:19:12 AM

To remain Kingdom citizens, we need not only to know Godís standards but also to love them. Many citizens of human governments say that they agree with the laws and standards of the country in which they live. However, when they find a requirement to be inconvenient and feel that nobody is looking, they break the law. Often, these people are ďmen pleasers.Ē (Col. 3:22) Kingdom citizens live by a higher standard. We gladly obey Godís laws, even when no other human is looking. Why? Because we love the Lawmaker.óIsa. 33:22; read Luke 10:27.
 How can you know whether you truly love Godís laws? Examine the way you react when you receive counsel about what you feel is a personal preferenceófor example, on the matter of dress and grooming. Before becoming a Kingdom citizen, you may have preferred to dress sloppily or provocatively. As your love for God grew, you learned to dress in a way that honors him.  A foundation law of Godís Kingdom is that all citizens imitate Christ. (1 Pet. 2:21) Regarding Jesusí example, the apostle Paul wrote: ďLet each of us please his neighbor in what is good for his upbuilding. For even the Christ did not please himself.Ē (Rom. 15:2, 3) For the sake of peace in the congregation, a mature Christian is willing to yield without resentment to the consciences of others.óRom. 14:19-21.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Arnold on October 23, 2013, 05:02:30 AM

I have a question. Not that anyone will answer it. But why do Christian women wear their pants and sweaters so tight. I mean skin tight. Like they need a shoe horn to get in them.  It's an honest question.
 :anyone:
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: aquatic on October 23, 2013, 06:05:48 PM
Arnold it's the same for any woman. It has to be for attention from others or to make themselves feel good, because it sure isn't for comfort. 
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Melanie on October 24, 2013, 12:23:34 AM
I have a question. Not that anyone will answer it. But why do Christian women wear their pants and sweaters so tight. I mean skin tight. Like they need a shoe horn to get in them.  It's an honest question.
 :anyone:

Actually, it's not an honest question. It's an assumption. I have a better question. Why do "some" Christians generalize so much in saying Christian women wear tight clothes? Notice I said "some" while you said "Christian women?" You were generalizing, I am not. Because there are lots of Christian women who don't wear skin tight clothing. You can't lump all Christian women into the same basket. That's like saying why are Jews cheap, why do Irish people drink, why are Polish people dumb or why do blacks have rhythm? When you make such generalizing statements, you weaken your argument because it's not true.

When you ask why do Christian women wear their pants and sweaters so tight, that's not a true statement. My Christian parents have never worn skin tight clothing. I'm sure some people do, but they can't be used as a representative of all Christian women. Also, just because they call themselves Christian, doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maurice on February 26, 2015, 05:25:34 AM
Notice I said "some" while you said "Christian women?" You were generalizing, I am not. Because there are lots of Christian women who don't wear skin tight clothing.

And where are these christian women? I've never seen them, unless you are talking about the Quakers, The Amish or the Pennsylvania Dutch. Other than that, Christian women wear tight clothes. You might find one here or there, but basically they do wear tight, hip-hugging, revealing, low-cut, sexy clothing. Just like everyone else. Let's not be hypocritical.


Quote
You can't lump all Christian women into the same basket. That's like saying why are Jews cheap, why do Irish people drink, why are Polish people dumb or why do blacks have rhythm? When you make such generalizing statements, you weaken your argument because it's not true.


None of that is true?  :Say_what:
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on March 15, 2015, 09:04:18 AM
So if you wear a modest clothing, but then don't know Christ, what good is it to wear modest clothing? None. You might as well eat, drink and be merry, because tomorrow you die.

Melanie,
  I just realized that you were the only woman to comment in this thread, and not really to condemn immodest clothing. Does that not say it all? Women in general just love dressing immodestly because it gets them attention. That may not be politically correct to say, but I believe it to be the truth. Women avoid issues of modesty like it was a disease.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Arnold on March 15, 2015, 05:35:00 PM
That's Harsh!  :-\
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Betty on March 16, 2015, 01:48:51 AM
 :ditto: Well here's the second woman to speak up in this thread, and I doubt you'll like what I'm going to say either. Maybe women aren't addressing this issue because of men like you. You mistake legalism for modesty and you seem to blame women for your (men) own salacious, lecherous and lustful thoughts. If you have lusts when you look at woman's clothing, isn't that's on you?

Luke 6:41 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

 :Fighting: There certainly are a lot of male chauvinists in the world, and some of them on this forum. I reject out of hand the idea that women are immodest today. Define immodest. A short dress or low cut blouse tastefully worn is not immodest. Yoga pants are not immodest. Without a doubt, a lot of Christian men are misogynist and contribute to this widespread contempt for women.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Tra Millwood on March 16, 2015, 04:05:17 PM
With all due respect Betty, you don't count. We're looking for women who hold the Bible as the authority, who honor its words and who accept God's word concerning morality. If we don't accept God's word as authority, then that puts us in another religion, not of the living Word.  The Word is alive, it's not dead like the law. It lives in our heart. If you are going to contradict it, then how is it the religion of Christ?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  John 1:12-14"

God's Word made flesh and dying that it might live in us, not die in us.

Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Sojourner on March 17, 2015, 10:05:43 AM
I think that anyone who can't see that Muslim women are more outwardly moral have their heads stuck in the sand. Of course that's not all encompassing, but in general they are. Even when they migrate to other countries, to a large degree they retain that modesty. Unlike most other religions where the women seem to change to fit the social (immoral) norms of the countries they enter into. That's my observation and opinion of this issue.

On the other hand, there are also a lot more hypocrites as they're watching porn, gambling, drinking, ready to murder someone who doesn't agree with their views, etc., and then praying every morning about the wicked society they live in. It's like the Priests and Pharisees of old who were outwardly modest and pious too, but Christ taught that inwardly they were farther away from God than the Prostitutes.

It seems like it may be that the Muslim religion doesn't attempt to modernize or change as much as religions like Christianity, they keep their roots (so to speak). Modern Christianity changes its laws constantly where almost everything becomes debatable and no judgment should be made. It's like going from one extreme in one religion to another in Christianity where there are no absolutes. The Muslim religion has retained most of the past moral values of women, but not morality in general. By contrast, western culture has gone in the toilet, and western values and morals of women have gone right along with it. As I said before, progress and modernization isn't always a good thing.

But it's not about who is being more moral, it's about who has Christ as Savior. So all the social morality in the world isn't a big help. It's a cultural thing and I believe their religious leaders have done a much better job of teaching and maintaining standards than the Christian church has. They still evangelize and proselytize, while the Christian church does not. At least not on the scale that this religion does. Instead of teaching, we want to feed hungry people, get involved in politics and give money to Israel. They work harder at doctrinal evangelizing. So in a nutshell, that is why Muslim women are (generally) so much more modest than Christian women? It comes down to teaching, something the Christian church doesn't do anymore.  They're too busy learning compromise from the world.

 Pr 22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformer on March 18, 2015, 03:24:21 AM
You mean giving up on teaching kids what not to wear and why they shouldn't wear it is hypocritical? Especially when you go to work in the same sexy clothes? Or giving up on telling children they have to abstain from sex before marriage because they don't listen anyway? This is not a good Christian attitude?  ::) I guess you can tell I'm being sarcastic. Does it seem to you that Christians are defeated before they even get up in the morning?

I get what you mean. But it's so much more enriching and rewarding to contemporary Christians to argue endlessly over the imperfect tense in Greek showing continuous duration of existence in the past and continuing into the future when John says the Word was made flesh. It's embarrassing witnessing and boring making disciples, so let's just enrich ourselves? (another eye roll).  Not that there's anything wrong with personal growth, but we were comissioned to make disciples of men. Somewhere, we've lost that talent.

Yes I agree, we've failed as preachers, as parents and as a church. As I see it, the problem is it's too late now. It's like a cancer that you saw the symptoms of and did nothing and now it's too far gone to stop now. It reminds me of the passage in Jeremiah.

 Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
 21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
 22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

How prophetic to our times. If they had, but they didn't. And because of that, the immorality of the world is rampant in the church. You could no more effectively tell christian woman today to stop wearing suggestive clothes as you could tell them to stop walking. Contemporary style is ingrained in them. Nor can you stop men from their lust because it's like telling them to stop breathing. Because it's so everywhere today, it seems normal and impossible to beat. I notice that anyone condemning these things appear archaic, judgmental and loveless to most Christians.  Muslim women in general just don't have that type peer pressure to conform to the immoral dress norms that Americans do. In most Muslim countries they're living in a time capsule type society where modesty in dress is expected. We live in a country where it's just the opposite and immodest dress is expected. If a woman wears a long dress here (and by long I don't mean down to the ground), she's made fun of in most places. We are a decadent country.


Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Erik Diamond on March 19, 2015, 12:26:05 PM
Immodesty simple means dressing to draw attention to the BODY instead of the HEART or SPIRIT.  Christian women (as well as men) are responsible for what they wear that is supposed to reflect their relationship with God AND the decision to have sex with someone, other than spouse, as a result. Her body is reserved for God AND her Christian husband, is a distraction to the Christian community if she does not dress properly.

The women forgot that their body is a TEMPLE that belongs to God, therefore, should be treated with respect if they receive what Scripture says instead of protesting with feminism and cultural lies. There is NO POINT of pointing the finger at either men or women. Immodesty can, and does go BOTH ways.

Erik 


Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Jeff on March 21, 2015, 02:01:11 AM
A lot of people here write as if this statement is a given. I don't accept the premise that muslim women are more modest than Christian women. There's no proof of that.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Betty on March 22, 2015, 12:30:19 PM
A lot of people here write as if this statement is a given. I don't accept the premise that muslim women are more modest than Christian women. There's no proof of that.

 :ditto:  &TY
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Trevor on March 23, 2015, 02:26:28 AM
I wonder if many Christian women are aware that the dress and modesty of muslim womem (which they so hate) are actually the very same modesty and dress that the jews and early Christoians practiced? The documentarian Ruhi Hamid in her film "Islam Unveiled," shows that Muslim women were actually influenced by the early Byzantine Christians, which took their modesty from the faith of Israel women. The women of the church of Christ wore head coverings in accordance with the Apostle Paulís command in 1st Corinthians for women to cover their heads in public worship. This in accordance with the customs of of the women of Israel that required them to cover their heads in public and to dress modestly for public worship and interactions. Speaking of the modesty that God requires, we read

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:" 1st Peter 3:5

So here we see another reason why women should seek that modesty and adorning as this characterized the pious and honored women of ancient times who were commended of God. So I have to agree with what Sojourner said about the Muslim religion holding true to the modesty of their women and not attempting to modernize or change as much as Christianity does. I think it's pretty obvious that there has been a change in Christian women concerning modesty, and it has to do with culture and religious leaders, not with God allowing less modesty.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on March 23, 2015, 05:06:52 AM
Well here's the second woman to speak up in this thread, and I doubt you'll like what I'm going to say either. Maybe women aren't addressing this issue because of men like you.

Men like me who say that modesty is next to Godliness? I doubt it. Maybe it's because there really is no justification for it. Even you have to resort to distraction, because God's word is clear about modesty, isn't it?


Quote
you seem to blame women for your (men) own salacious, lecherous and lustful thoughts. If you have lusts when you look at woman's clothing, isn't that's on you?

Yes. It is. Likewise, if you wear immodest clothing when God says don't wear immodest clothing, isn't that on you?  :S_Confused:

You see the difference between you and me is that I can answer a question honestly. How about you?  :)


Quote
There certainly are a lot of male chauvinists in the world, and some of them on this forum.

Would that include God and his decisions about the roles of men and women?


Quote
I reject out of hand the idea that women are immodest today. Define immodest.

I thought I did. For starters, short skirts and dresses, tight pants, Low cut blouses, bare midriffs, excessive adornings, gaudy lipsticks, bikinis, or any skin tight clothing in public.


Quote
Without a doubt, a lot of Christian men are misogynist and contribute to this widespread contempt for women.

No contempt here. Just a desire t be obedient to what God says is righteous.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on March 23, 2015, 05:11:33 AM
I have to agree with what Sojourner said about the Muslim religion holding true to the modesty of their women and not attempting to modernize or change as much as Christianity does. I think it's pretty obvious that there has been a change in Christian women concerning modesty, and it has to do with culture and religious leaders, not with God allowing less modesty.

 :ditto:  More than pretty obvious, it is painfully obvious to anyone who isn't blind. You're right, God is not allowing less modesty today, women today are the ones deciding they can be more immodest. That's the elephant in the room. That's the thing no one wants to say out loud. Show more legs, show more cleavage, bare midriffs, tight sweaters and blouses, and on and on. Then claim it's just changing culture and not a violation. And don't tell me it's fashion either, fashion has nothing to do with letting your breasts hang out or wearing skin tight clothing. There are plenty of decent blouses and loose fitting fashionable clothing. It has to do with the modern desire to attract attention to the body.

And that's why women aren't commenting :baghead:

Not because they disagree, but because they know we're telling the truth and there is no biblical justification for what they desire to wear.

Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Dryfus on March 23, 2015, 01:21:47 PM

Interesting reading

http://www.backpackingdiplomacy.com/comparing-nuns-to-muslim-women-photos/
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Arnold on March 23, 2015, 07:48:04 PM
More than pretty obvious, it is painfully obvious to anyone who isn't blind. You're right, God is not allowing less modesty today, women today are the ones deciding they can be more immodest. That's the elephant in the room. That's the thing no one wants to say out loud. Show more legs, show more cleavage, bare midriffs, tight sweaters and blouses, and on and on. Then claim it's just changing culture and not a violation. And don't tell me it's fashion either, fashion has nothing to do with letting your breasts hang out or wearing skin tight clothing. There are plenty of decent blouses and loose fitting fashionable clothing. It has to do with the modern desire to attract attention to the body.

That's way harsh! How do you know why women do things or their motivation or the immorality of it? Are you a woman or are you psychic?


Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformer on April 07, 2015, 08:27:21 AM

God offers a righteous alternative to the sexual objectification of women, which is the honor of women.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maryam on June 23, 2015, 09:07:27 PM

This is my first post this forum, and as i am a muslim woman - don't shoot - i feel compelled to reply to this thread.

But first let me say that i was surfing the internet about christian modesty, to get some talking points with my mother, who is christian but could care less about the scriptures.
Then i saw that the forum has a very nice eschatology section, and i registered because comparative eschatology is a passion of mine. (We muslims are waiting for the Second Coming of Christ, when he will descend from heaven between two angels and fill the Earth with Justice and Peace).

Anyways, my take on the subject is this : many christians follow their religion out of habit, not out of conviction. But there are some christian women who really believe deeply, and they apply. My pinterest boards are full with different christian headcoverings.

Some christians veil their face, too :
She is an orthodox christian and gives her arguments in the description of the video.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: SavedByGrace on June 23, 2015, 10:44:17 PM
Welcome Maryam, :welcome:

I want to wholeheartedly welcome you to MountainRetreat.  I have wanted to talk to a Muslim for a very long time, but never had the chance. 

I am so impressed that you want to honor your husband.  Here are my questions for you:

I assume that you practice arranged marriages.  What do you personally think about this if you donít mind answering?  How long have you been married?  Are you happily married?  Do you want this for your daughter?

Again thanks again for your reading MR and I hope that we can have a great discussion here.

Your friend,

BillnJune
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maryam on June 23, 2015, 11:26:47 PM
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   I want to wholeheartedly welcome you to MountainRetreat.

Thank you.

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I have wanted to talk to a Muslim for a very long time, but never had the chance.

Well... i'm here...

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I am so impressed that you want to honor your husband.

Here is the thing, i don't cover to honor my husband - even if i do respect him - but to ascertain my spiritual identity and to obey the Lord. Obedience isn't for obedience sake, but to prove our Love for the Creator. We can't say that we Love Him and play pretend. We have to prove our Love, both by obedience, and by staying firm when befallen by calamities.
My ex-husband forbid me to veil my face, so i didn't, out of respect for his opinion. (Guess what i did the first day after my divorce...)
My veil, is affirming that i am not a body with a soul, but a soul with a body.
It is affirming that i refuse to be judged on my weight, on my sexiness/ugliness, on my ethnicity or on my age.
It is affirming that what matters in society is what i think, say, and do.
I grew up with veiling around me by the way, i had two grandaunts who were nuns. One was cloistered, the other teached english and photography.
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I assume that you practice arranged marriages.  What do you personally think about this if you donít mind answering?  How long have you been married?  Are you happily married?  Do you want this for your daughter?

Well for my first marriage it was a romantic marriage - and as a christian, i respected the fact that my muslim partner did not want to have sex out of marriage. That lasted 14 years and three children. I did the wrong choice and was not happy, though i didn't ask for divorce (the islamic view on divorce is that it is the worst thing of all permissible acts, a last resort), i placed my trust in the Lord, knowing that it is only a short life after all, and that every single suffering, even the smallest, is an expiation of sins. Anyways, i  didn't have to endure all my life after all, he divorced me last year.

I met my second husband on the internet - as happens with most non-rural marriages these days.
As for arranged marriages, why not if both parties incline to each other. But i am vehemently against forced marriages. It is illegal anyways under islamic law - as marriage is considered a contract, and a contract is only  valid with consenting parties. What i would like for my daughters, is a believing husband with excellent manners and character.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: SavedByGrace on June 24, 2015, 10:26:50 AM
Thank you so much for your response Maryam,

I am most grateful to you for your answering my questions.  I want to be so careful that my questions donít sound sarcastic or belittling.  I respect you for your desire to please your God above all.  Some more questions if you donít mind:

You are obviously educated but I was under the impression that girls in Islamic countries were not educated and not allowed to work outside the home, drive, hold office or for that matter even to have opinions.  Is this true?

We are told that an Islamic man who dies for his faith will have 1000 virgins in heaven.  Is this true?  That sounds like Islam is a male orientated religion.  What is in it for the girls?  Is it the girls desire to serve men in heaven?  I wonder if Islamic men are such hunks of men that they would even know what to do with 1000 virgins?

Is Islam a polygamist society?  Did not Mohammad have multiple wives?

Does the Koran really specify these things for everyone to obey?

Thanks again for your time,

BillnJune
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on June 24, 2015, 11:05:11 AM

Hi,
  I don't want to get off topic, But I'm impressed that at least you're not afraid to make a comment like the "Christian" women around here. I don't know if you read my post or not, but I have steadfastly argued about this modesty issue and the Christian women here simply don't have anything to say because they don't want to admit that they don't want to give up their provocative way of dressing. Lots of comments from men, but the women all pof a sudden have their tongues removed it seems. I agreed with what the poster named Sojourner said about the Muslim religion holding true to the modesty of their women and not attempting to modernize or change as much as the women in Christianity does. As I said, I think it's pretty obvious that there has been a change in Christian women in the west when it comes to modesty, and anyone denying that is blind. I think it has to do with our religious leaders losing their conviction, not with God permitting more immodesty (as it seems modern women believe). Here's my post:

Quote
More than pretty obvious, it is painfully obvious to anyone who isn't blind. You're right, God is not allowing less modesty today, women today are the ones deciding they can be more immodest. That's the elephant in the room. That's the thing no one wants to say out loud. Show more legs, show more cleavage, bare midriffs, tight sweaters and blouses, and on and on. Then claim it's just changing culture and not a violation. And don't tell me it's fashion either, fashion has nothing to do with letting your breasts hang out or wearing skin tight clothing. There are plenty of decent blouses and loose fitting fashionable clothing. It has to do with the modern desire to attract attention to the body.

And that's why women aren't commenting :baghead:

Not because they disagree, but because they know we're telling the truth and there is no biblical justification for what they desire to wear.

I 100 percent believe that is true. So while I do not believe in the Muslim religion, I wholeheartedly agree that Muslim women are more modest, and it's not even debatable as far as I'm concerned. I believe they are so because of their conviction. Western Christians mutilate scripture for their own selfish purposes.

Can I assume you were taught modesty by accepting what is in your book, or taught by your parents or your leaders teachings, rather than blindly follow society?
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on June 24, 2015, 11:06:26 AM
We are told that an Islamic man who dies for his faith will have 1000 virgins in heaven.  Is this true? 

 :offtopic:  You should start another thread for that discussion Bill.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: SavedByGrace on June 24, 2015, 11:24:13 AM
Sorry RB,

You are right.  I started a new thread on the Islamic faith

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=3096.msg34516;topicseen#msg34516

Bill
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Kyle on June 24, 2015, 11:40:15 AM
Christian men do not dress like Muslim men and yet know one questions their dress and grooming.
Modesty is the principle that all Christians strive to attain to.

Christian men do not go to church in skin tight pants, breasts hanging out, bright red lipstick or short skirts either. It's not about style of dress, it's about immoral dress. What the world does is one thing, what Christians should do is another.

I don't think Christian men should go shirtless in front of other women either, but that's not the point. Do you ever see a shirtless man in church? I doubt it. Those are generally unbelievers (who I'm not talking about). I'm talking about believers, or people who say they are Christians. They should be held to a higher standard don't you think? And Christian women are no exception to God's rule concerning moral dress or humility.

 1st Timothy 2:9-10
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works".

That about sums it up, don't you think?

Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Maryam on June 24, 2015, 04:56:25 PM

to stay on topic :

Quote
Can I assume you were taught modesty by accepting what is in your book, or taught by your parents or your leaders teachings, rather than blindly follow society?

I wasn't taught the Bible as a child. Sure, i went to church with my father and grandparents, i had some catechism classes, but i was never taught the what is actually in the scriptures. I only seriously started to study the Bible as a young adult.

But i grew up in an upperclass, oldblood families environment, and went to an all girls boarding school, so wearing mini skirts has never once gone through my mind.
I was supposed to 'hold my rank', dress with 'good taste' and not ridicule myself by dressing like 'peasants'.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Jeremy on January 26, 2016, 01:31:29 PM

Hi,
  I don't want to get off topic, But I'm impressed that at least you're not afraid to make a comment like the "Christian" women around here. I don't know if you read my post or not, but I have steadfastly argued about this modesty issue and the Christian women here simply don't have anything to say because they don't want to admit that they don't want to give up their provocative way of dressing.

  :-X,  but Interesting   :)
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Betty on February 11, 2016, 10:34:34 AM
But i grew up in an upperclass, oldblood families environment, and went to an all girls boarding school, so wearing mini skirts has never once gone through my mind.
I was supposed to 'hold my rank', dress with 'good taste' and not ridicule myself by dressing like 'peasants'.

Which is why I never liked conservatives, they're so full of themselves.  ::)
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: R. Anspach on March 24, 2016, 08:15:42 AM
I would say that Muslim women are so much more modest than Christian women because their religion has what Christianity no longer has. They are taught that discipline in dress at an early age and for the most part they don't stray from it. Christianity seems to has no such teaching discipline anymore, in fact it seems to reject any criticism or law of immodesty as a attack on Christian liberty or a form of legalism. If a Christian says anything about immodest dress, the first thing they hear from other Christians is that times have changed or don't judge

I Tim. 2:9
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."

In like manner means with the very same regard to what Christianity demands. In other words, women have the same duty or obligation to God to adorn themselves with modesty and discretion.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on March 27, 2016, 05:37:38 AM
I would say that Muslim women are so much more modest than Christian women because their religion has what Christianity no longer has. They are taught that discipline in dress at an early age and for the most part they don't stray from it.

In a word, "training". Isn't that what God told Christians to do also?

Proverbs 22:6
 "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

 Bring your children up with Godliness, virtue, modesty and fear of God and he will continue to have these traits later on in life. This doesn't mean there are no exceptions, but it is a general rule that holds true. For Muslims, Christians, everyone. God's proverbs were wise then and are wise now. You'd have to be blind not to "notice" that bad parenting makes for bad children, hoodlum parents have hoodlum kids, entitled parents have entitled kids, racist parents produce racist kids, dishonest parents produce dishonest kids, and so on and so forth. The old expression is true that "The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree." Training.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Chicago Bear on March 28, 2016, 12:55:19 PM
I would say that Muslim women are so much more modest than Christian women because their religion has what Christianity no longer has. They are taught that discipline in dress at an early age and for the most part they don't stray from it.

In a word, "training". Isn't that what God told Christians to do also?

Proverbs 22:6
 "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."


Amen! Muslims understand that, Christians think that would be bad parenting, a violation of chilldren's liberty or brainwashing.  ::)

Luke 16:8
"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Melanie on November 22, 2016, 03:01:03 AM
I would say that Muslim women are so much more modest than Christian women because their religion has what Christianity no longer has. They are taught that discipline in dress at an early age and for the most part they don't stray from it.

In a word, "training". Isn't that what God told Christians to do also?

Proverbs 22:6
 "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."


Amen! Muslims understand that, Christians think that would be bad parenting, a violation of chilldren's liberty or brainwashing.  ::)

Luke 16:8
"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

Ooooh! Well said. I do love the Apologetics category here. But careful there, the church may sanction you for that.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on July 12, 2017, 02:15:38 PM
Muslims get some things right. Training and modesty is a couple of them that Christians seem to have forgotten over the years.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: ZeroCool on January 20, 2019, 04:42:29 AM
Interesting subject. They are definitely more modest than Christian women, but I would have to agree that it has to do with their upbringing, not that they are inherently more moral. Western women are raised to think that a low cut blouse, tight pants tight skirt or shorts are not immodest. I think they are but I think I would be in the minority.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Melanie on January 21, 2019, 07:37:57 PM
I would say that no group of people are inherently more moral than another. To some degree it does depend on the environment they are raised in. If most of us were raised up in Japan, there's a good chance we wouldn't be Christian, except of course God decides to single us out to hear the gospel in some way. Muslims dress modestly because that's the way they were brought up.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.  Proverbs 22:6"

There is God's answer to why Muslim women are so much more modestly dressed. American women have been raised up to think showing a lot of skin has nothing to do with modesty, and it's all the man's fault if he looks.
Title: Re: Why are Muslim Women so much more Modest than Christian Women?
Post by: Beechwood on January 21, 2019, 11:05:53 PM
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