The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: Shirley on July 29, 2009, 08:14:01 AM

Title: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Shirley on July 29, 2009, 08:14:01 AM
Since this has been the topic of conversation of late, I thought we might look at the biblical grounds for a Christian apology. Notice I said Christian apology, as I'm not talking about among unsaved people. I'm interested in the Christian community. And Please, if anyone wants to get personal, or direct this at any individual, I ask that you please don't participate in this discussion.

First, I'm sure we all agree that no one should apologize if they have not offended anyone. At least I think we all agree. But when is an apology Biblically required, or is it? That's what we'll start off with. I think it is in certain situations, but I am open to differing opinions.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Kenneth White on July 29, 2009, 10:07:02 AM
Since this has been the topic of conversation of late, I thought we might look at the biblical grounds for a Christian apology. Notice I said Christian apology, as I'm not talking about among unsaved people. I'm interested in the Christian community. And Please, if anyone wants to get personal, or direct this at any individual, I ask that you please don't participate in this discussion.

First, I'm sure we all agree that no one should apologize if they have not offended anyone. At least I think we all agree. But when is an apology Biblically required, or is it? That's what we'll start off with. I think it is in certain situations, but I am open to differing opinions.

A very good and topical question Shirley. Particularly since many Christians express real opposition to the idea that Christians should be apologizing for offenses they may have committed against brethren. One person told me that this sounded Catholic. And I read in one blog where this guy thinks this makes Christians seem weak. Here is his abbreviated comment:

"why should we, when people of other religions never apologize for anything that they do. It will make Christians appear to the world like they are always doing something wrong if they start apologizing to each other for every little thing. So why should Christians apologize if other religions are not expected to do so as well".

First, I don't think Christians are always apologizing. But I took from his comments to mean that he thought this was a form of Christians "groveling," and it was an unseemly thing to the world. This seems to be the prevalent attitude of Christians that I come in contact with. That if someone is offended, that is their problem, not mine. But I think this passage has some bearing on the question.

Matthew 5:22-24
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift".

I do not think that asking forgiveness for any offense to a brother or sister in Christ for disrespectful behavior, even if it is merely perceived, is in any way unchristian. Do you? On the contrary, I believe that it shows real Godly humility. We have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Humility is something that the unsaved, to a large degree, do not have. But Christ said more than once that we are blessed if we have it. And what other religions do is their business, it should have no bearing on our behavior.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Harold on July 29, 2009, 11:39:17 AM
You guys are getting soft. Christians shouldn’t have to apologize for anything. Christians are already forgiven and already perfect, so as perfect, they have nothing to apologize or make amends for.

 John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
 
 We have no sin to apologize for. Next you'll be confessing to Priests.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: beelsls on July 29, 2009, 12:47:22 PM
Because Christians do still sin, I think that throughout our lives there are times when an apology is in order. When we break one of Gods laws the Holy Spirit convicts us and if you are truly one of Gods Elect you will repent and ask for forgiveness. The difference between God and man is that God has already forgiven His Elect and man has not and may not.
An apology needs to come from someone not be drawn out of them. An apology is worthless unless it is given. When we tell our children to say they are sorry, they say it but most of the time don’t mean it. On the other hand if our children say they are sorry without being told they truly see that they were wrong and are truly sorry.
I also think that there are things that may be offensive to one person that someone else does not. Sometimes there are good reasons for the way people feel and even though we may be offended by something they say, they may have a reason for saying it.
I think back of the many times I should have apologized for things I have done in my life and did not, and the times that someone else should have in my mind apologized to me. I probably owe more than I am owed.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Shirley on July 29, 2009, 12:52:10 PM
Harold,
  I actually expected some of this type of sentiment, because I've encountered it before, but if that verse is the best you can come up with to forbid Christian apology, then I must say, it's pretty thin. Personally, I believe that when a Christian claims some responsibility for a slight or offense they never intended, and yet made, is the pinnacle of true sacrifice and Christian behavior. This doesn't have anything to do with being made perfect in Christ, I absolutely believe that. Because without a Christian apology for offense, Christian reconciliation is a distant option.

The problem is (as I see it), some obstinate Christians are so stubborn, they don't really care about that. This is the real problem in general Christianity today, and I think we've seen examples of that. I feel Christians are slow to examine themselves in general.

Psalms 139:23-24
"Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting".
 
But you have to want to be a better Christian before you can ever be a better Christian. You have to want to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus, before you can. And to many Christians have an intellectual knowledge of Christ, but are lacking in the personal relationship.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Shirley on July 29, 2009, 01:01:00 PM
An apology needs to come from someone not be drawn out of them. An apology is worthless unless it is given.


Good point! An apology must come from the heart, else it is artificial and without real meaning. I know when people try to shame someone into apologizing, even when they really should rightly apologize, that apology (if forthcoming) is really worthless. It's not from the heart in repentance.

 That's why I try never to ask anyone for an apology.  If they are of a mind to, they'll give it gracefully. If not, that's between them and God. the problem is, people don't think about the damage they do with words. I guess that is why God likens the tongue to a snake.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Soldier on July 29, 2009, 01:36:09 PM
I guess I'll chime in. Hope I don't put my foot in my mouth, if I do, I apologize. From my dealings on many different forums, I would say the Reformed and Puritan community is less likely to apologize than any other. I think it has to do with their strict background and thinking everything is ordained, but neglecting that they should "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." Does not even our conscience tell us to apologize to the brethren when we offend them? It does me.

Acts 24:16
 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

The Reformed doctrine has nothing to do with neglect of apologies, but somehow that is connected. There are some Christians, particularly the well educated, who fear that the nature of an apology is that of an admission of direct personal responsibility to some degree (which it is). And their sense of fearing to be found in error will not permit them to admit to any responsibility. Is it not really an ego problem? The more egotistical a person is, the less likely they are to apologize, because they feel that impinges on how people will perceive them. It's all about them. In other words, they're worried about the effect it will have on perceptions of them, rather than its effect on the person offended. the fact is, apologies are a basic of real Christianity, despite what some think. It is easy to get mixed up in semantics here, but in all truth, repressing ego is a part of personal growth and is a part of what a Christian apology brings out in us.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on July 29, 2009, 02:39:30 PM

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but any Christian who proclaims that a Christian should never apologize to anyone for anything, is truly ignorant of what Christianity is. Truly!
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Amy Lineal on July 29, 2009, 06:12:50 PM
If we are talking about cyberspace and there is no face-to-face contact, then preferably BEFORE someone has to start another thread with a question.  When one is confronted and witnesses are brought forth, the offender should apologize.  Of course, if he or she stops reading the thread, then no action can take place.

...Christians shouldn’t have to apologize for anything. Christians are already forgiven and already perfect, so as perfect, they have nothing to apologize or make amends for.

In the spirit of I'm OK--You're OK by Thomas Harris  and I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional: The Recovery Movement and Other Self-Help   by Wendy Kaminer, I am inspired to write a book called,

I'm Christian, You're Christian: How Church Relationships Benefit from Ignoring Offenses Rather than Deal With Them.
 
Would anyone like to write my preface?  ;D


We have no sin to apologize for. Next you'll be confessing to Priests.


This is as unloving a spirit one can have.   :'(
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Diane Moody on July 29, 2009, 06:22:40 PM
I guess I'll chime in. Hope I don't put my foot in my mouth, if I do, I apologize. From my dealings on many different forums, I would say the Reformed and Puritan community is less likely to apologize than any other. I think it has to do with their strict background and thinking everything is ordained,

That's not really true. A lot of Reformed people have commented, and I think most believe in apologies. So you can't really generalize like that. I know what you mean about "some" reformed theologians, but they are really a small minority. Tony Warren, Rev C Bouwman, David J. Engelsma, James M. Frye, Anthony A. Hoekema, Kim Riddlebarger, they have all preached sermons on forgiveness and apology. If you are talking about the more Reconstructionist Reformed, that's a different area. But you can't generalize.


Quote
but neglecting that they should "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." Does not even our conscience tell us to apologize to the brethren when we offend them? It does me.

Acts 24:16
 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

Yes, I agree. But this has nothing to do with Reformed people not understanding this. I think most do.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Diane Moody on July 29, 2009, 06:34:17 PM

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but any Christian who proclaims that a Christian should never apologize to anyone for anything, is truly ignorant of what Christianity is. Truly!


Yeah! Hard to believe that there are really those professing Christians around who "actually" believe that, isn't it? Whew!

For those of us who actually take the word seriously, which seems to be fewer and fewer, I think this passage speaks directly to the issue of the Church community, confession/apology and forgiveness. I mean if we are going to bring the Bible into it  :-[

 James 5:16
 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Pretty hard to do if you self righteously proclaim you have no faults, and therefore nothing to pray for.  ::)

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Jimmy on July 30, 2009, 01:01:46 AM
I was wondering, can anyone think of place in Scripture where someone has clearly made an apology to someone who they had done wrong?
I can't seem to recall one right now.

I do believe in apologizing if we have done someone wrong. I think it is a serious matter when we know we have sinned against someone and aren't willing to set the record straight.

Isn't it somewhat of an apology when we go to the Lord humbly asking forgiveness of our sin to Him? And are not our brothers and sisters in the Lord of the same body with Christ Himself? Surely it's easy to offend others in the Church when we are still in this sinful body. Without the restraining hand of the Lord we are still capable of doing some pretty bad stuff.
So asking forgiveness; Yes.
Forgiving ; seventy times seventy

Pro 18:19    A brother offended [is harder to be won] than a strong city: and [their] contentions [are] like the bars of a castle.

Mat 18:15 Tells us to go to that person even before he comes to apologize



Mat 18:6   ¶    But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


Mat 18:7        Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Mat 18:15   ¶    Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.


Mat 18:16        But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.


Mat 18:21   ¶    Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?


Mat 18:22        Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Mat 18:17        And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Jimmy
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Granny on July 30, 2009, 01:44:57 AM
Wonderful post Jimmy. When we are told to confess our sins one to another, the whole point is forgivenesws, and thus apology. The dictionary defines apology (in this instance) as the expression of regret; confession of wrongdoing; to be sorry for; a written or spoken expression of one's remorse, or sorrow for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another. No surprise it fits the biblical description of confession of faults to one another. Apology begets forgiveness, does it not? Is it not good for the soul?

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Terrell Meyer on July 30, 2009, 07:42:27 AM
I guess I'll chime in. Hope I don't put my foot in my mouth, if I do, I apologize. From my dealings on many different forums, I would say the Reformed and Puritan community is less likely to apologize than any other. I

I think the word you're looking for is not necessarily Reformed but "Snobbish" Christians. They are in every group, not just the Reformed. They are theologians who stick their collective noses out at the layman or the less learned, and they generally always ask for your "credentials" when you debate them with scripture. As if without training at a seminary, you can't know what the bible says. I ran across a few of them at the PuritanBoard forum and never went back.  I wouldn't worry about Christians like that, they have their reward.

I don't believe that any sound Christian would reject the idea of a Christian apologizing. The one person that said that here is the exception, not the rule. And where was his backing for such a nonsensical Christian theology? His word alone!
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Pearson on July 30, 2009, 09:29:09 AM
[Soapbox mode on]
We should all know that an apology is the expression of our regret for some error, perceived or otherwise. Confession is the first step in forgiveness, even as with God, so with man (Acts 24:16; James 5:16). There are no unforgiving people in the kingdom of God.

1 John 2:15-16
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Pride is the killer of confession and without confession there is no recognition of wrongdoing, so how can there be remission or forgivenesss. Is there any wonder God said;

Proverbs 16:18-19
"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud."

More Christians should seek the lowly spirit rather than the prideful one in dealing with offenses. An apology is healing to the soul of the apologist, even more than the one receiving the apology. And often the lack of an apology is the start of deterioration and trouble among the Church. Which thing God hates.

Pro 18:19    A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Bunyan on July 30, 2009, 12:09:08 PM

This is a good topic. It goaded me to search the web and look up the words Christian and apology. To my surprise, all I came up with is these three subjects. 1. Christians apologizing to the Jews. 2. Christians apologizing to the Muslims. And 3. Christian apologetics. It seems not a lot of Christians ever write about Christian offences, personal Christian relationships, apology or Church interaction. It is truly a subject neglected. I did read the Good Rev. Carl Haak write:

"If you do not confess your sins, there will be a spiritual withering within you-a spiritual hardening inside you. Confess. Put content into your words. Do not generalize. Tell the Lord what you have done. And confess your sins one to another. When I discover the sins that I have committed against my brother, then I must confess that sin. Yes, confess your sins. Repent of your sins. Be sorrowful for your sins. But know why God forgives your sins!"

So some good Christians are aware of the need. And I'm glad we get a chance to discuss it here, even though some posts are ridiculous. The subject is long overdue. Anyone know of any articles on the web concerning it? ..or any books on the subject? Preferably from a Reformed or biblical perspective.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Drew on July 31, 2009, 08:11:28 AM
A couple Unfortunate and hurtful comments made by what we will call, anonymous Christian posters:

"Why? Did you think a Christian was someone who doesn't dance, smoke, or drink and attends Sunday service? Those are Baptists, and if a bake sale, Lutherans."

"We all know different denominations are known for certain distinguishing characteristics.  The last Baptist church I attended was just as bad as the Pentecostal and catholic church in their teachings.   There’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between them if you ask me, lost is still lost."

Not a bit of difference between baptist Churches, and I assume, baptists. WOW! To come to a place where obviously there are a lot of Baptist Christians, and make such comments, shows a lack of common sense caution. Don't you think that these comments that are insensitive at best, and callous at worst, come under this category? if they fit in either case, do you think that an apology is out of order?  Or is it? Perhaps we are wrong and feelings should have no bearing on the offense of a Christian. That is possible. So the question is, should we rule out feelings as a reason to apologize?
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Reformer on July 31, 2009, 09:30:20 AM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I was curious about the silence of the Lamb. And Christian behavior is right on topic. So I looked up the word apologize, and I found that every regular Christian on this forum has used it at one time or another. Even Reformer (humor - humor!!!!)

  Hey! I resemble that remark! ;)

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Reformer on July 31, 2009, 09:31:19 AM
Well, this thread is getting a lot of comment. I'll add mine.

As one who is often saying something he shouldn't and has to apologize, I think for a Christian to apologize is a very healthy and blessed thing of the spirit. We all have to learn to admit when we are wrong, and thus endeavor to build bridges between fellow Christians instead of walls. Like someone else said in this thread before, too often Christians don't really care. They think they are right, and therefore that justifies any offense to the fellow christian.

Proverbs 6:2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.
 3 Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend.

God has to move a soul to be humble enough to understand that we sometimes do and say things that we should not have. Even when we feel justified. So when we are in the wrong (even though we may be right), I think we need to take responsibility for causing strife and admit we are wrong. Be humble enough to say we are sorry for any offence to our brethren. I think scripture teaches that n abasing ourselves, we exalt and glorify our Lord. That's a part of what makes us "different" from the world. A Spirit of love, compassion and union with the Christian family. God, who is well pleased with such charity and sacrifice, rewards us in ways we cannot even imagine. Learn the meaning of the proverbs concerning this

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
 
Humility and honor in God's eyes goes hand in hand. So why glory in our ego when his grace is both sufficient and honorable. This taking on the vesture of humility is something I think a lot of Christians really have a difficult time doing. Myself included. But that doesn't mean it is not something we should strive for, that we may grow in grace.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Rose on July 31, 2009, 11:16:40 AM
All excellent posts. But let me say something. We can talk and talk until we are blue in the face, but unless a Christian wants to hear it, it goes in one ear and out the other. The same hardness and resistance you may have encountered when talking to dispensationalists or Pentecostals about the scriptures, we find that exact same hardness with some Christians when they do things they shouldn't. They always resist the truth, and we have to recognize that. We can't change anyone's mind, but we have left a record of our good witness to the word and that is enough. Amen?
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Colleen on July 31, 2009, 01:45:05 PM
 https://web.archive.org/web/20160421132539/http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon_trans/forgiveness.html

 Revelant?
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Colleen on July 31, 2009, 08:57:25 PM
Here's an excellent piece, the author can be reached below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Principles of Judging
Christian Behavior
and
Principles of Forgiveness

Luke 17:3; 1 Timothy 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:12;
1 Thessalonians 5:14
 

1. We are always to first judge ourselves for any sin present in our lives that we know of (1 John 1:9). We are to examine ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:31). We are to repent of all sin habits.

2. If we have knowledgeably sinned against others, we are to refrain from worshiping God, and immediately go to our offended brother or sister for reconciliation (Matthew 5:23 & 24). And...

3. The same is true (#2) if we have sinned against unbelievers (Matthew 5:25).

4. If a Christian sins against you, first, make sure you have no known sin in your life that you could be rebuked for, before you go to your brother to correct him. Read Matthew 7:1-5 very carefully.

5. Then, only if you have no “beams” in your eye, can you apply Galatians 6:1. Watch your attitude. Go in gentleness.

6. Depending on his response, use Matthew 18:15-17 if he (your brother) has offended you.
 
7. We must judge our brother as to whether he is in sin, and if he is willing to repent of it and separate himself from it. We must make the judgment to separate ourselves from fellowshipping with him, if he is unrepentant and refuses to ask for forgiveness. (2 John 7-11; Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:11-13; 1 Timothy 6:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 3:6; Romans 16:17)

8. Can we judge (krino) a brother’s service, ministry or stewardship? NO! The only exception is if ALL the facts are known and sin is actually and openly involved. (1 Corinthians 4:1-5)

9. Again, be warned of Matthew 7:1-5. Better to ask “why” a person is doing something than to judge (krino) by appearance or haste.

10. If an unbeliever sins against you, you can forgive or use 1 Timothy 1:8-10.
 
Proverbs 27:5-6 - Open rebuke;
Nouthesis; Correction; Restoration
 
To Admonish: putting in mind (verbally), (Greek - nouthesis) training by word (negate “do nots” or encouragement) includes reproof, remonstrance, i.e. strong reasoning against something. Warn.

To Exhort: call aside, entreat (verbal), (Greek - parakaleo, paraineo) urge, plead to come back to God’s way, advise, warn, beseech.

To Rebuke: Put honor upon, then to adjudge, (Greek - etitimao) solemn warning of consequences of sin. (Greek - elencho), convict, refute, reprove with conviction, to put to shame. (Greek - epiplesso) to strike at, on (all verbal). (Greek - elenxis) rebuke.

To Reproof: is to bring to light, privately, a fault in another person. (Greek - elegimos) to expose something, convict. (Verbal)
 
SAME
 
To Refute: to expose, convict (elegimos) (verbal)


CHANGE BEHAVIOR


To Correct: (Greek - diorthoma) reform, amendment, correction, a making straight, clarifying, change. (Greek - epanorthosis) a restoration to an upright state. (Greek - paideutes) a corrector/teacher/chastizer.

 
MANNER OF APPLICATION
 
...in longsuffering and doctrine, love, meekness,
...in humility, patiently, responsibly, gently

Judging a sin:
1 Corinthians 5:3, 12, 13, 11:29-32
To restore:
Galatians 6:1 (Greek - kartatizo) mend, repair
To Judge:
Angels, the world (1 Corinthians 6:3)
Brethren (1 Corinthians 5:3, 5, 12; 6:5)
Ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:31)


PRINCIPLES OF FORGIVENESS - (Aspect 1 - Before Man)


Luke 17:3 & 4 - (Read) This verse reveals “conditional” forgiveness. IF he repents FIRST, I will forgive him.

“if he repents”; (changes his attitude, apologizes, admits his sin, asks you to forgive him), you THEN are to forgive him, and forget what happened. The commitment here - to forgive - is to God, NOT to the offender. (There is no such thing as advance forgiveness.)

Matthew 18:15-17 - NO forgiveness is granted to him or her until the offender
repents.

2 Corinthians 2:6-7 - after church discipline has been done (Matthew 18:15-17)
and IF repentance comes, THEN forgive him. Tell him you forgive him so he knows it for sure.


PRINCIPLES OF FORGIVENESS - (Aspect 2 - Before God)
  

You MUST forgive all people who have offended you so that God will hear your prayers (Mark 11:25)

If you don’t forgive them before God, you won’t be forgiven your transgressions either (Mark 11:26; Luke 11:4 Our Father’s Prayer); (Matthew 6:14-15; “if you have repented”.)

WARNING: You cannot ask another Christian to repent if you haven’t repented of known sins or sin habits in your life (Matthew 7:1-5; Galatians 6:1).

Forgiveness requires “forgetting” the past completely. To keep “digging up” old sins is sin. To be bitter and carry a grudge is sin. Forgiveness ALWAYS means “forgetting” the offense.
 
We, at Good News Bible Church, encourage you to print any of these Bible studies on our website for your own personal Bible study, or to use in a group Bible study. But just as salvation is a FREE gift, offered to us through the work of Jesus Christ, these Bible studies are a FREE gift and are not to be sold for any reason.

If you have questions or comments, or you would like any other information concerning this or any other Bible studies we have available, please contact us using the information below.

gnbcbible@gnbcbible.com

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Doug Johnson on August 01, 2009, 11:08:17 AM
A couple Unfortunate and hurtful comments made by what we will call, anonymous Christian posters:

"Why? Did you think a Christian was someone who doesn't dance, smoke, or drink and attends Sunday service? Those are Baptists, and if a bake sale, Lutherans."

"We all know different denominations are known for certain distinguishing characteristics.  The last Baptist church I attended was just as bad as the Pentecostal and catholic church in their teachings.   There’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between them if you ask me, lost is still lost."


Ok, from someone who lurks and reads this forum, I think that the first comment is humorous but seems quasi-insensitive. But the second comment seems mean, implying all Baptist Churches are alike. From my perspective, that's neither a good thing to say, nor is it true. That's why there are so many different sects in the non Catholic Churches, because there are different types even in the same groups where you don't all have to be the same. I consider that a minus rather than a plus, but that's beside the point. Apology is in order in both instances.


Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Nikki on August 01, 2009, 03:41:32 PM

Forgiveness.  Revelant?

Hi,
  Have you read John Bunyan's Christian Behavior?
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Pearson on August 02, 2009, 04:42:03 AM
Firstly, I want to give my sincere apology to anyone, whether Baptist or Lutheran, that was offended. I can see how someone can take my statement about these denominations and find it offensive; it was a poor choice of words.

[Soapbox mode on]

Apology accepted of course. Not that I needed it. Let's hope that others don't use this as a reason to continue the defense of the indefensible. I think good Christians here understood it was simply a poor choice of words. The problem is, those attempting to defend them, I think, caused more harm than good. That you can see how someone can take your statement, and defenders could not see it, is in my view the real problem that offended more.


Quote
However, for those interested in what I was seeking to convey: the context was - what is a Christian? Is it legalism:  don't dance, smoke, drink, etc? Indeed, the church has adopted forms of legalism throughout its history and the holiness movement has affected most all denominations - so the "joke" is a familiar stereotype based on authentic problems within the church that still exists in a host of denominations. But, a Christian actually is very unlike the caricatures the world presents - which was my point, however garbled.

I think most of us got what you were trying to convey, and the "usual suspects" (who, according to rules will remain nameless) who attempt to cause trouble are well known, as is their motivation.


Quote
Thus, "if" Granny views a Christian as someone who does "things" to become holy (a common fallacy) - she would do well to understand it is the reverse. We are made holy by our relationship with Christ - which is why our liberties can be restrictive and yet express true freedom.  It is because our liberty is bound in Christ we do not have, nor want, freedoms outside of Christ. 

Amen!


Quote
A wrong-hearted action would be to turn your offense into a cause célèbre and bemoan the fact to the world that you haven't got your much-deserved deserts in the form of an apology. The consequences are that soon you have a polarized community with people taking sides.

I think it would have blown over if not for those attempting to justify it, and also adding this comment, which was much more offensive:

"We all know different denominations are known for certain distinguishing characteristics.  The last Baptist church I attended was just as bad as the Pentecostal and catholic church in their teachings.   There’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between them if you ask me, lost is still lost."

If this was supposed to be a defense of what was said, it was an offense worse than the original misunderstanding, only serving to widen the breach and miss the point entirely.



I disagree in one point. The agitators have really gained nothing, and the Church (I believe) has been edified and strengthened by the resultant discussion and agreement on Christians offending Christians and graceful action of apology. I'm not saying it was all a good thing, but that it was used to the good of all of us. I think that your actions and witness of words on this forum will speak volumes, as will theirs. Christians are not as foolish as one might think.


Quote
I think the proper Christian attitude toward small offenses is two-fold:  First, stop being hurt by every little thing, which means you must stop thinking the worst of everyone – and to do that you'll have to stop thinking so highly of yourself and your own importance.

While I agree in principle, sometimes I believe that an apology is in order and even required by the word of God. Not that yours was one of those cases, but they do occur and I don't think that it is out of line for a Christian to expect, but not demand one from other conscientious Christians.


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Secondly, being genuinely offended, first deal privately with the person - state your case plainly (without overstatement) and make it clear how you were personally affected. And then go your way. Leave the matter with God.

I agree with this totally. Unless it is a continuing offense, in which case there may be need for it to be openly rebuked.



(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Amy Lineal on August 02, 2009, 07:45:24 AM
I've read John's post carefully.  Some parts more than once.

I thought about responding with quote blocks but I defer because I think I can state my confusion with one statement.

I, first of all, was not offended by the original remarks made by John.  If his response stopped at his first paragraph, I would simply iterate: "apology accepted."

HOWEVER, the rest of his response seems to further defend himself RATHER than to be sincerely apologetic.  (Am I the only one to sense this?)

It 'seems' he is "offended" by being told he offended people and is asked to apologize.    :o  This is bizarre, IMO.

Regardless, I think I am going to re-read Bunyans Pilgrims Progress--the part where Christian and Hopeful meet up with TALKATIVE.  Maybe that would help me with undestanding the mindset or worldview of others better.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Drew on August 02, 2009, 09:17:29 AM
I've read John's post carefully.  Some parts more than once.

I thought about responding with quote blocks but I defer because I think I can state my confusion with one statement.

I, first of all, was not offended by the original remarks made by John.  If his response stopped at his first paragraph, I would simply iterate: "apology accepted."

HOWEVER, the rest of his response seems to further defend himself RATHER than to be sincerely apologetic.  (Am I the only one to sense this?)

No, you're just the only one who has the integrity to say anything about it, since the writer apparently can do no wrong.


Quote
It 'seems' he is "offended" by being told he offended people and is asked to apologize.    :o  This is bizarre, IMO.



I wouldn't call it bizarre, because we see it all the time. It's called pride. He can't bear to just "admit" that he's done something he shouldn't have done, it has to ultimately be someone else's fault.


Quote
Regardless, I think I am going to re-read Bunyans Pilgrims Progress--the part where Christian and Hopeful meet up with TALKATIVE.  Maybe that would help me with undestanding the mindset or worldview of others better.


 I totally agree with Amy. I know it is difficult for some oif you, but try and be fair and look at this objectively. If you can. What John does is apologize, and then in effect minimizes his real responsibility by saying it's really your fault for either not having a sense of humor, or being too sensitive.  ???

 A real apology is taking responsibility, not in ranting or blaming the people you are supposedly apologizing to. That's pride kicking in. He can't bear to apologize without striking out at the people he's (supposedly) apologizing to. That is all this is, and if you are honest with yourselves, you know this. All these replies most of you made about humility, and we get an example of just the opposite. This so-called apology lacks that humility of a sincere apology. And you know it.

If you're going to apologize, just apologize and let it go. Then we can all move on. One line is all that was required. "I apologize if I have offended Baptists." Period!  But don't go on this pious rant about all the Baptists who were offended being too thin skinned and who themselves were evidently to blame in some way. That negates the whole apology. He might as well have not said anything.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Drew on August 02, 2009, 09:21:44 AM
Oh, PS:

 The worst comments on Baptists made by Mr. U-No-Who isn't apologized for at all. So I guess we should count ourselves lucky to be in the presence of John, who at least moved in that direction. Perhaps we expect so much of Christians.  :-\
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Amy Lineal on August 02, 2009, 09:55:57 AM
Drew, thank you very much.   :)

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Amy Lineal on August 03, 2009, 08:41:33 AM
I need to correct a previous statement.  TALKATIVE discourses with FAITHFUL and not HOPEFUL.  The scene is before VANITY FAIR so Faithful isn't dead yet.

Some excerpts:

Faith.  Now did Faithful begin to wonder; and stepping to Christian, (for he walked all this while by himself,) he said to him, (but softly,) What a brave companion have we got? Surely this man will make a very excellent pilgrim.

Chr.  At this Christian modestly smiled, and said, This man, with whom you are so taken, will beguile, with that tongue of his, twenty of them that know him not.

. . .

Faith.  What would you have me to do?

Chr.  Why, go to him, and enter into some serious discourse about the power of religion; and ask him plainly (when he has approved of it, for that he will) whether this thing be set up in his heart, house, or conversation.

. . .

Faith.  Because I saw you forward to talk, and because I knew not that you had aught else but notion. Besides, to tell you all the truth, I have heard of you, that you are a man whose religion lies in talk, and that your conversation gives this your mouth-profession the lie. They say, you are a spot among Christians; and that religion fareth the worse for your ungodly conversation; that some have already stumbled at your wicked ways, and that more are in danger of being destroyed thereby; your religion, and an alehouse, and covetousness, and uncleanness, and swearing, and lying, and vain-company keeping, will stand together. The proverb is true of you which is said of a whore, to wit, that she is a shame to all women; so are you a shame to all professors.

Talk.  Since you are ready to take up reports and to judge so rashly as you do, I cannot but conclude you are some peevish or melancholy man, not fit to be discoursed with; and so adieu.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/pilgrims_progress3.html (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/pilgrims_progress3.html)





Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Rose on August 03, 2009, 04:27:06 PM

HOWEVER, the rest of his response seems to further defend himself RATHER than to be sincerely apologetic.  (Am I the only one to sense this?)

It 'seems' he is "offended" by being told he offended people...


I think we all noticed. It was somewhat disappointing that it was obviously a half-hearted apology, as he seems to blame those he offended, for being offended. I agree, why apologize then if that's how you feel. It sounds like a big case of hurt pride, but I think we are all ready to move on. I think I'll use it to better myself, instead of condemning others. People are what they are, and like I said before, we all have pride. So I'm not going to throw stones. But yeah, I think it's hard not to notice it.

When should a Christian apologize? Only when it's heart felt.


Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Mitchell on August 04, 2009, 06:49:07 AM
Some apologies are weak, seem forced and qualified because for many, it is a dirty word. And unfortunately, some Christians are molded in the form of the Pharisee. For the Pharisee, the apology can never be heart-felt or without qualification because he would feel that it takes away from his virtue to do so. It's like confessing, "I'm a sinner," which will never do. Not without qualification of someone else being a sinner too. The more noble Christian realizes that a heart-felt Christian apology actually shows the virtue of Christ in them, rather than take away from any virtue that they think they might have. Observe that to the prideful, humility is just a word to be read in the scripture, but not to be put into practice within the Church. It practical application, it means nothing in their daily walk with God. The Christian Pharisee today spends his time looking for the sin in others, that he may couch his apology to minimize the sin in himself.

My view is, if we can apologize for mistaking one person for someone else, or apologize for placing a post in a wrong thread, or apologize for a typo or for misspelled words, surely we can apologize for offending another Christian. If we refuse to apologize for offending a brother or sister in Christ in more weightier matters, what does that say about us as a Christian who is supposed to have love and charity for each other?

 Matt. 5:23-24
  "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

So I read that apology is an integral part of Christianity. And from what I'm reading, with few exceptions, I think that the majority of us are in total agreement on this. God's word says confess our faults one to another. And not just for typos and errant posts, but in more important things. As a body, we should cast aside our pride, and for the good of the whole, make sacrifices that benefit all. Consider these passages which I think are tremendously inspiring.

1 Cor. 12:24-27
 "For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
 
Whether one member suffers by an offense, all the members suffer by it. If indeed we are a true body, that is how it works. That's why I think we are basically coming together on this topic. Because we all feel the pain of suffering to some degree. A Christian should apologize to another whenever he has in any way wronged him. It is required by scripture. In fact, the sun shouldn't go down except we have left off our prayers to God, and first be reconciled to our brother, and then we can come and offer in good conscience towards the God of forgiveness.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Drew on August 04, 2009, 12:29:42 PM
Hey Reformer. I noticed that you were one of the few who didn't comment on this thread. I wonder why? What's your stand on this issue of apology?  :)

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: judykanova on August 04, 2009, 10:59:29 PM

HOWEVER, the rest of his response seems to further defend himself RATHER than to be sincerely apologetic.  (Am I the only one to sense this?)

It 'seems' he is "offended" by being told he offended people...


I think we all noticed. It was somewhat disappointing that it was obviously a half-hearted apology, as he seems to blame those he offended, for being offended. I agree, why apologize then if that's how you feel. It sounds like a big case of hurt pride, but I think we are all ready to move on. I think I'll use it to better myself, instead of condemning others. People are what they are, and like I said before, we all have pride. So I'm not going to throw stones. But yeah, I think it's hard not to notice it.

When should a Christian apologize? Only when it's heart felt.





HOWEVER, the rest of his response seems to further defend himself RATHER than to be sincerely apologetic.  (Am I the only one to sense this?)

It 'seems' he is "offended" by being told he offended people...


I think we all noticed. It was somewhat disappointing that it was obviously a half-hearted apology, as he seems to blame those he offended, for being offended. I agree, why apologize then if that's how you feel. It sounds like a big case of hurt pride, but I think we are all ready to move on. I think I'll use it to better myself, instead of condemning others. People are what they are, and like I said before, we all have pride. So I'm not going to throw stones. But yeah, I think it's hard not to notice it.

When should a Christian apologize? Only when it's heart felt.



We should have "moved on" long before now, with the apology.  Only God sees the heart and I find if very disturbing that some feel the need to decide whether an apology is sincere or not. That's not our place.  I figured this would be the response of some who take no part of the responsibility for the misunderstanding that occured, and would rather promote contention rather than reconcilation.

You're alsolutely right Rose, about the benefit of looking in the mirror and considering our own ways.   It certainly doesn't promote apologies/reconciliation when we behave as the world does in this regard.

Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.  

judy

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Drew on August 05, 2009, 05:00:00 AM
We should have "moved on" long before now, with the apology.  Only God sees the heart and I find if very disturbing that some feel the need to decide whether an apology is sincere or not. That's not our place.

That comment makes no sense, but is what we would "expect" from someone who thought the offending comments against Baptists by John and Penne were perfectly fine from the beginning. One of the few who thought so, by the way. So your continued support of such obvious causes of offense does not go without notice.

However, the title of this thread is when should a Christian apologize. So in spite of your being so called "disturbed" that we would even discuss the matter, it is a legitimate topic. Funny how you can be disturbed by this Christian discussion that has edified so many here, but not be disturbed by John and Penne's offense. Curiously, you have ignored the many scriptures given, including..
 Mt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.


Quote
  I figured this would be the response of some who take no part of the responsibility for the misunderstanding that occured, and would rather promote contention manner rather than reconcilation.

Here we have again, the usual suspect, defending the indefensible. Why should baptists be made the brunk of jokes and horrible generalizations. Misunderstandings?

"Why? Did you think a Christian was someone who doesn't dance, smoke, or drink and attends Sunday service? Those are Baptists, and if a bake sale, Lutherans."

"We all know different denominations are known for certain distinguishing characteristics.  The last Baptist church I attended was just as bad as the Pentecostal and catholic church in their teachings.   There’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between them if you ask me, lost is still lost."

These aren't misunderstandings, they are offenses to Baptists, and obviously to the majority of the Christian community here. The "Click" you are in, notwithstanding. Even Reformer can see that! I believe even Tony Warren was offended by some of the things said. So we have every right, and indeed the Christian obligation to discuss if off-color comments like these should be apologized for. How about if we change the word Baptist to Mexicans, would you be offended then? How about if it said, "We all know different races are known for certain distinguishing characteristics. There’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between them if you ask me, lost is still lost." Would that be offensive then? If it is, then from a Christian, an apology is in order. And Christians are free to debate if it is. You aren't moderator here, though you have tried to be. the contention here was brought about by stubborn pride, not by me.

I think Christians should be offended by your implication that the 99 percent of Christians here who clearly believe an apology was in order, should take part of the responsibility for the misunderstanding that occurred, and would rather promote contention manner rather than reconciliation. What a foolish thing to say. Let me name a few of the people who have commented on this issue along with me. maybe you should go back and read the thread. Most of these Christians and I have never gotten along doctrinally, but we are in agreement on apology. Shirley, Kenneth White, Soldier, Reformed Baptist, Amy Lineal, Diane Moody , Jimmy, Terrell Meyer, Granny, Pearson with his two cents,  Bunyan, Reformer (Sorry Reformer for my previous post, I see you have commented), Rose, Colleen, Doug Johnson , Nikki and Mitchell. To imply these are all trouble makers who should just have shut up long ago is sad. You don't have a let to stand on. It is clear you want to make this about me, but clearly the majority don't think so. It is about Christian behavior. So you can attempt to cover up for the "click" if you want, but I am not the only one who reads scripture and understands when a Christian offends another Christian, they should apologize. And they should do so without ranting on about the offended party being the one to blame. Most Christians agree. It's a matter of pride or a matter of humility. You blame me for this contention, not the offending comments or the prideful response. But let's see what the scripture says.

 Proverbs 13:10  Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

 The contention came with pride. The pride of one offering no apology for obvious offences, and the other giving a half-apology on one line, and then ranting on with 30 lines blaming the Baptists offended by these comments.


Quote
You're alsolutely right Rose, about the benefit of looking in the mirror and considering our own ways.   It certainly doesn't promote apologies/reconciliation when we behave as the world does in this regard.


Rose is not in agreement with you, but you take her comments out of context so it would appear so. Rose believes an apology was in order. Rose was disappointed in the half-hearted apology. So she's one of the Christians you accuse of judging another man's heart. So you see, your blind support of these comments is not shared by the majority of Christians here.

By the way, we could have moved on if there was a one line apology. That part you leave out. Because you want us to ignore the 30 lines that followed the apology and just shut up. While Rose is obviously ready to move on, it is not because she supports your blind support of your friends offenses as you do. All good Christians recognized it required an apology.

...you didn't!


Quote
Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

judy

 Does that make you a hypocrite for judging me and my motives as you accuse all these others who have commented. For your information darling, the majority of posts here are not mine. So don't try to make this about me, or about judging. It is about what should be proper Christian behavior.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Rich Aikers on August 05, 2009, 09:16:04 AM

I think we all noticed. It was somewhat disappointing that it was obviously a half-hearted apology, as he seems to blame those he offended, for being offended. I agree, why apologize then if that's how you feel. It sounds like a big case of hurt pride, but I think we are all ready to move on. I think I'll use it to better myself, instead of condemning others. People are what they are, and like I said before, we all have pride. So I'm not going to throw stones. But yeah, I think it's hard not to notice it.

When should a Christian apologize? Only when it's heart felt.


We should have "moved on" long before now, with the apology.  Only God sees the heart and I find if very disturbing that some feel the need to decide whether an apology is sincere or not. That's not our place.



With all due respect Judy, that wasn't so much an apology as it was a charge that the ones apologized to were at fault for being offended. I don't have to be a court judge to know that, it was quite obvious. And again, with all due respect, we don't have to decide whether an apology was sincere or not to know that he was blaming the people who were offended. You can close your eyes to that fact if you like, but it is a fact. Speaking of judge, all those words belong to him. Including the original ones about Baptists. I don't agree with Drew's doctrines, I think few of us do, but right is right no matter who is making the good points.

 Psalm 119:30
  "I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me."
 
Maybe it is time to move on, but it is not up to you to decide when a discussion about Christian behavior has run its course. Just as right is right, likewise, wrong is wrong. Even when done by your friends and mine.

 Psalm 119:62
  "At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments."

As his judgments are right, we must seek to make right judgments as well.  Not based on friendship, but on what actually is right and wrong. Seems you just may have forgotten that.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Lieberman on August 05, 2009, 11:09:53 AM
I'm relatively new here judging by the dates on some of the members here. But I will have something to say also. This is not in reference to any Christian in particular, but principles in general. It seems to me that the whole point of an apology is to accept some responsibility for some offense committed? Correct? I think all rational people would agree on that. A Christian apology (as opposed to non-Christian apologies) should not be an exercise of passing the blame off on the Christians that you are apologizing to. I don't get it. It seems so simple to me, but Christians seem to make everything so complicated. I mean, we can't just say I'm sorry and move on? Why do we have to pass off the blame on to the ones apologized to? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of an apology?

A Christian apology is meant to bring the offended party back in union with the offender. Am I Correct? But to go about casting blame on the offended, for being offended, hardly does that. I mean if we are talking about Christian principles in humility and not worldly principles in pride. We would expect worldly people not to be humble, but shouldn't we expect just a little more from Christians? And particularly from Christians who respect the Bible and its principles. Are we not flattering ourselves when we apologize stipulating that the responsibility was really on the Baptists who were offended? This scripture comes to mind.

 Psalms 12:3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
 4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

Is our tongue our own? Who is Lord over us? The Lord of pride and ego, or the Lord of humility and grace. Is it "I apologize for offending you," or is it "I apologize for offending you, but actually you are more responsible for being offended in the first place." You decide!

So, if I am disturbed, I'm disturbed by the lack of humility, not that Reformed Baptists felt slighted by generalizations and unkind remarks, or by humor made at their expense. That's not what disturbs me.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Pamela on August 05, 2009, 12:58:00 PM
Lieberman,

I really liked your post.  Thank you.

I apologize for taking things so lightly.  I have learned to laugh at "Baptist" jokes, but that doesn't mean that everyone is like me. 

In the two Baptist churches I have been in, even the pastors joked about Baptists!  But again...not everyone feels the same about this, and I will say that I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

God bless,
Pam



Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Lieberman on August 05, 2009, 03:53:30 PM
Lieberman,

I really liked your post.  Thank you.

I apologize for taking things so lightly.  I have learned to laugh at "Baptist" jokes, but that doesn't mean that everyone is like me. 


Thanks Pam. And I think that's all we're saying. Everyone's not alike and it's not going to hurt "any Christian" to apologize. Simple as that. Nothing more complicated. You are blessed sister.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: judykanova on August 05, 2009, 10:02:25 PM
We should have "moved on" long before now, with the apology.  Only God sees the heart and I find if very disturbing that some feel the need to decide whether an apology is sincere or not. That's not our place.

That comment makes no sense, but is what we would "expect" from someone who thought the offending comments against Baptists by John and Penne were perfectly fine from the beginning. One of the few who thought so, by the way. So your continued support of such obvious causes of offense does not go without notice.

However, the title of this thread is when should a Christian apologize. So in spite of your being so called "disturbed" that we would even discuss the matter, it is a legitimate topic. Funny how you can be disturbed by this Christian discussion that has edified so many here, but not be disturbed by John and Penne's offense. Curiously, you have ignored the many scriptures given, including..
 Mt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.



I don't mind your disagreeing with me -- namely that you think the apology given was not sincere, while I think that's not our place to judge.  However, I do mind your distortion of the facts.  I said nothing in reference to or defense of Penn's post.  I also in no way said nor implied that this topic  is not worth discussing.  

There is a flip side to when an apology is made, and that is our response to it, which is what my post was all about.

Consider:

Mat 6
14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Pro 24
17  Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
18  Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.  

Lastly, I never said that Rose agreed with me.  I said that I agreed with her statement regarding self-reflection.  I also made no reference at all to you.

I don't post based on popular opinion, or fear of man, but rather based on my on convictions.  I would ask that you do the same without resorting to distortions of the facts or personal attacks.
In my opinion that is more offensive than a bad joke.

judy


Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Drew on August 07, 2009, 09:03:55 AM
I don't mind your disagreeing with me

Clearly, that's not really true.

 2 Peter 1:7 & 8 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Quote
-- namely that you think the apology given was not sincere..

I have good reading comprehension. How about you? There were approximately 39 "WORDS" saying I apologize. Followed by 60 "LINES" (that's Lines) of blaming the Baptists for being offended and others for commenting on it because we all were the real problem. So, talk about distortion! If that was sincere, I'm Davey Crocket!


Quote
However, I do mind your distortion of the facts.  I said nothing in reference to or defense of Penn's post.

Who's Penn? You mean Penne? You didn't say Penne's post was offensive to baptists. Everyone else did because they are honest, but you didn't. No, you don't say much of anything, except to defend John and tell Christians when they have posted enough on a topic. 

Anyway, I went back over your posts (including the post in "what does it mean to be a Christian") and EVERY ONE is either in defense of John's comments, whining about us not having a sense of humor, calling those posting trouble makers or claiming the discussion has gone on long enough. Not once is there any admission of offensive language by anyone, including Penne's comments. Which would lead intelligent people to believe you think these type comments made by the two are no big deal and we should just "get over it," (just as your BFF John thinks they are). So we can "SURMISE" not only were you not offended, you want everyone else who was, to just shut up. Clearly!


Quote
There is a flip side to when an apology is made, and that is our response to it, which is what my post was all about.

No,no. What your post in effect says is, "Shut Up, enough already!!!!!" You're like a broken record. Here's just one of your posts, and Reformed Baptist's reply to it. Is he the trouble makers you claim is only out to cause contention? Speak up, or forever hold your peace.



Judy:
But to zero in on only this, take offense, and ignore the rest/core of what's been said, would be a lost opportunity to possibly broaden understanding of what being a true Christian is -- based on biblical principles and not man-made traditions.   

Reformed Baptist:
 Hi Judy,
  Of course we're zeroing in on this aspect of what was said, since this is the part of the post we have a problem with. People zero in on certain parts of posts all the time, including you, this isn't something new. It doesn't mean we don't get the rest of it. We comment on the part that troubles us.


You see, clearly you want us to ignore the offense and pretend as if it didn't happen. Just as you're doing now. Flip side of an apology? You mean the diatribe of blaming the Baptists for being offended and anyone else who commented as causing contention? That one?  You said "lost opportunity to possibly broaden understanding of what being a true Christian is." Do you have any idea? It is not absolving John or Penne of responsibility, nor of shoving truths under a rub so your friends aren't accountable to God. Based on your own not man-made traditions.   


Quote
Lastly, I never said that Rose agreed with me.  I said that I agreed with her statement regarding self-reflection.


Yet you didn't self-reflect on your own behavior. Christians don't sweep issues under a rub, they deal with them honestly. And also, there was only one perfect man, and it ain't John. He showed that much with his half-hearted apology. And Rose agrees. So while you pick little parts out of her post and distort them, read her whole post. All of them!


Quote
I also made no reference at all to you.

LOL.  Oh yeah, right! You were really talking about Rose, Reformed Baptist, Lieberman, Reformer, John and the rest of your friends. Right? There are only a limited number of people who posted, so don't play that game with me. Are those the trouble makers you were talking about? You must think people are stupid. Of course both you (and John) were calling me the person seeking to cause contention. Just the fact that you are denying it is incredible. Why not be honest, who were you talking about? Tony Warren, Pamela, Jimmy, Colleen, Nikki, Pearson, No? ....that leaves only me and Penne doesn't it? ...Oh, you were talking about Penne? Silly me.

And speaking of Penne, the worst of the offenders against Baptists, she/he seems to have suffered a sudden severe case of laryngitis after insulting Baptists so bad EVEN TONY WARREN had to intervene. No apologies there either from that outstanding Christian. Oh well, I guess we are starting to see people's true colors.

Forgiveness you say? That's a good word. So is repentance. They go hand in hand, JUDY

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Kirk on August 07, 2009, 10:57:17 AM
Most of you make good points, including Judy. To John I would only say,  I have never been a big fan of the "yes, but" apology. For one reason. It simply doesn't do what an apology is intended to do. Wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: beelsls on August 07, 2009, 11:52:55 AM
Quote from Penne
I can’t believe this conversation has lasted this long.  I guess that poor horse needs a few more stripes.  We all know different denominations are known for certain distinguishing characteristics.  The last Baptist church I attended was just as bad as the Pentecostal and catholic church in their teachings.   There’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between them if you ask me, lost is still lost. 
Why is it, for those who demand an apology, forget to forgive?
Mark 11:26
  "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

I see Penne stating what she believes and for that she owes no one an apology. My wife and I attended a Baptist Church and afterwards spoke with the pastor regarding his free will sermon. He called us “FIVE POINT CALVINESTS” and walked away. I expect and desire no apology from him.

When God’s Elect get to heaven they will only be speaking of God’s true church, not any man made denomination.

I’m sure there are some Baptist Churches teaching the truth but most are not. That’s why most of God’s Elect don’t attend a church.

Mr 13:14   ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:      

His Will Be Done!
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Amy Lineal on August 07, 2009, 12:28:42 PM

I’m sure there are some Baptist Churches teaching the truth but most are not.

How do you know this?  How many Baptist Churches have you been to?  In how many cities and in how many states?  In other countries?


That’s why most of God’s Elect don’t attend a church.


How do you know this?  Do you have a link to a survey or poll? 

Please don't be offended by my questions, okay?  I'm just asking for clarification because making assertions without evidence is sinful.  But, if you qualify your statements with "in my opinion" then no offense has been made.

Thanks in advance for your response.   

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Tony Warren on August 07, 2009, 05:17:51 PM
>>>
My wife and I attended a Baptist Church and afterwards spoke with the pastor regarding his free will sermon. He called us “FIVE POINT CALVINESTS” and walked away.
<<<

Wonderful, you attended a Baptist Church. What has that to do with the price of Bananas? I talked to a Reformed pastor about the kingdom, and he told me that was foolish and proceeded to speak of the golden Utopia on earth to come, and then went his way.

...what has that to do with the price of Bananas?

Do I now lump all Reformed Christians into this group and start bashing them? It's logic like this that baffles me. Always has. Always will.

By the way, most of the "Baptists" I've come across "in this forum" (some of whom attend Church) are Biblical, moral and honest in their dealing with scripture.. And they don't deserve to have to listen to this nonsense from a few Christians seeking to show how righteous they are..


Quote
>>>
I see Penne stating what she believes and for that she owes no one an apology.
<<<


Obviously that's what she believes. Which is her right.


Quote
>>>
When God’s Elect get to heaven they will only be speaking of God’s true church, not any man made denomination.

I’m sure there are some Baptist Churches teaching the truth but most are not.
<<<

Most of "ANY" Church denomination is not speaking the truth these days, including he REFORMED, so this has nothing whatsoever to do with Baptists! So I say once again for the benefit of the truly hard of hearing. There will be no Baptist Christian bashing in this forum. ...Period! We debate doctrines here, not bash or ridicule the Christians of different denominations. If you cannot abide by these rules, then do not post in the forum.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Chicago Bear on August 08, 2009, 11:37:31 AM
Tony Warren, friend of righteousness, the needy, the Baptists, Presbyterians, Reformed, Puritans, Lutherans, you just don't care who you associate with, do you ;)

 Mark 9:38-40 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.
 
In other words, leave the denominations alone, deal with what they are saying and doing! Amen! Thanks Tony!

To be on topic, "when Should a Christian apologize?" When he or she has offended another Christian, regardless of denomination, race, creeds, country or political party. It's no different than when your mom made you apologize to your sister for some offense. That's what family is all about. And more so in the Christian family. Or so it should be.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Penne on August 09, 2009, 07:01:40 PM
I don’t have a problem apologizing to anyone.   I do offer my apology to anyone who goes by the name Baptist.  To those Baptist who truly divide the Word righteously and love God and are constantly seeking truth.  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ.  God bless them.

I wasn’t aware there are righteous Baptist left, I’m glad to be wrong. 

Penne
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on August 09, 2009, 08:14:32 PM
I don’t have a problem apologizing to anyone.   I do offer my apology to anyone who goes by the name Baptist.

Reformed Baptist? ...That be Me ;)


Quote
  To those Baptist who truly divide the Word righteously and love God and are constantly seeking truth.  They are my brothers and sisters in Christ.  God bless them.

Thanks! There are a lot of us here.  Most just don't wear their name on their sleeve like me :)

 God Bless Penne, apology accepted! Might be my turn next.




Quote
I wasn’t aware there are righteous Baptist left, I’m glad to be wrong. 

Penne

 Well, we're all wrong sometime. Just your turn.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Chicago Bear on August 09, 2009, 10:05:55 PM
Quote
I don’t have a problem apologizing to anyone.   I do offer my apology to anyone who goes by the name Baptist.

Class move Penne.

Quote
I wasn’t aware there are righteous Baptist left, I’m glad to be wrong. 

I believe that half the Christians on this forum are either Baptist or from Baptist Churches. A lot of Good Baptist Christians.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: matt205 on August 10, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
 Real Christians Don't Apologize

Romans 8:9-21  (9-30-07)

http://sermons.wspc.org/audio/2007_09_30.wma

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Herman Stowe on August 11, 2009, 08:20:57 AM

I believe that half the Christians on this forum are either Baptist or from Baptist Churches. A lot of Good Baptist Christians.



 Oh, it's more than half, I'll tell you that. Maybe as much as 3/4. That's why it's amazing that people might think there aren't any good Baptists left. Most of the posts in this forum are from Good Baptists. 

Penne, I hope you didn't feel put upon by the people to apologize, but by the Spirit. I'm sure no Christian here holds any ill will. Christians are one big family, dysfunctional at times, but always a family bound together in love. And I'm also glad that you didn't blame the Baptists for being offended. That was very big of you.

Now I have to go and apologize to my wife for snapping at her yesterday. That's where I learned not to blame the person I'm apologizing to. It kinda backfires.   ;)

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Dwight on August 11, 2009, 12:54:17 PM

I think the proper Christian attitude toward small offenses is two-fold:  First, stop being hurt by every little thing, which means you must stop thinking the worst of everyone – and to do that you'll have to stop thinking so highly of yourself and your own importance. No doubt with a correct opinion of your own self-worth apart from God’s grace, all the attacks in the world would be of such little importance - what is there in this perishing world that you must be offended over it?  With that in mind, take the time to analyze why you feel offended when you are. If it something needing to be resolved, something incontrovertibly damaging – then take the steps to remedy the matter, but it ought to be approached with proper Christian charity and prayer.

Secondly, being genuinely offended, first deal privately with the person - state your case plainly (without overstatement) and make it clear how you were personally affected. And then go your way. Leave the matter with God – you are not there for an apology or to get-even, but, if there is error, to restore fellowship.

Likewise, we should on this forum first ask for clarification openly, with charity, and refrain from assuming the worst. The best rule is to assume you have misunderstood and give the benefit of the doubt to the other person. I’m speaking here of perceived slights that crop up on forums – not open rebellion or people peddling false gospels – to those we confront openly. Ah, wouldn't it be pleasant if everyone considered the other person more highly than themselves (me included)? I think so.

I'd like to simply quote something from a very biblical Reformed pastor whom I've come to respect in giving sound advise.


"The hard struggle of a wounded ego fighting for survival. It is hard for us to acknowledge our regret or sorrow. It is hard for us to admit it to ourselves, to acknowledge it before God, and perhaps hardest of all for us to name it to the one whom we have hurt. Even when we are successful at naming our sorrow in some cases, it is easy for us to ruin perfectly good apologies with excuses. Often in the face of an apology, we will feel a need to give supporting evidence, reasons, conditions, circumstances, and our "rationale at the time" that somehow shaped why we said or did something. And every time we offer this supporting evidence for our actions or inaction, we take a little of the weightiness of our apologies away.

By Rev Marc Nelesen - from a sermon on apology preached in 2006"

A very wise man. We'd all do well to consider his words, rather than find ways to negate them.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Matrix on August 12, 2009, 10:40:54 AM

"The hard struggle of a wounded ego fighting for survival. It is hard for us to acknowledge our regret or sorrow. It is hard for us to admit it to ourselves, to acknowledge it before God, and perhaps hardest of all for us to name it to the one whom we have hurt. Even when we are successful at naming our sorrow in some cases, it is easy for us to ruin perfectly good apologies with excuses. Often in the face of an apology, we will feel a need to give supporting evidence, reasons, conditions, circumstances, and our "rationale at the time" that somehow shaped why we said or did something. And every time we offer this supporting evidence for our actions or inaction, we take a little of the weightiness of our apologies away.

By Rev Marc Nelesen - from a sermon on apology preached in 2006"

A very wise man. We'd all do well to consider his words, rather than find ways to negate them.


I like it!  Sounds like one of those rare very cerebral teachers who are led by the spirit. Who is he?

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Theo on August 12, 2009, 12:09:34 PM

 Who is he?



Marc Nelesen is pastor of Third Christian Reformed Church, Zeeland, Michigan.

http://www.reformedworship.org

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Dryfus on October 14, 2009, 08:08:17 PM

 Psalm 10:10 He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.

No, never apologize, even when you are wrong. It's a sign of weakness.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Red on October 15, 2009, 09:48:50 AM
Often!

"For in "many things" we ( yes, even the holy apostle included himself) offend all..." James 3:2

But sad to say, many are like the scornful, sullen, surly servant of Proverbs 29:19:

"A servant (Christians are God's servants) will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer."

If you explain things carefully and clearly, he will not agree or submit. Though you ask questions he understands, he will not answer!

Christians should "never" be such blots on their Savior. They should take corrections with cheerfylness and contrition. They should makes amends as quick as possible.

Let us be the quickest to say we are sorry when shown our faults. If we refuse to do so, it is a mark of a reprobate. As Christians, we should avoid such peutations. If we have had displayed such a spirit in the past, let us confess our sins and folly to God and others: Proverbs 28:13; Job 33:27; 34:31-32; 1John 1:9 ; and your GOd will receive you and you will help to make others around you more Christ like.

I have said to my wife of forty plus years, "I am sorry" many times, and most likey will many times more.

Red Baker

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Red on October 15, 2009, 09:53:36 AM
By the way, dear saints...I am a Baptist, even though I worship at home.  ;)

Your brother, Red Baker
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 15, 2009, 10:35:14 AM
>>>
Psalm 10:10 He croucheth, and humbleth himself, that the poor may fall by his strong ones.

No, never apologize, even when you are wrong. It's a sign of weakness.
<<<

Dryfus,
  Scripture out of context is pretext. That line of yours is better suited for a Gangster film, not Christian behavior. Let's read that scripture of yours in its Context.
 
Psalms 10:8-12

Blessed are the humble few who can apologize. For there be many who cannot find it within themselves to do so.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Dustin on January 03, 2010, 08:17:41 AM
While doing a Google search, I found this website from the title, "when should a Christian apologize?" And I found it very interesting that there are still so many Christians who resist apologies. I continue to be amazed at the resistance in the Christian community to even talking about apology, regret or repentance with others. Their reply is that, "That's between me and my God." But is it? This forum thread seemed a microcosm of that bad Christian behavior rejecting apology which stems from pride. While most accepted that apologies were in order, the main culprits resisted it, and thus extended and prolonged the whole resentment, bad feelings and healing process far above what would have occurred if there was the quick admitting error and moving on. And that's what I find so fascinating about people. they tend to make matters worse by their pride fullness. A proverb that Christians should take heed of is 13:10

"Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom". -Proverb 13:10

Contention gives birth to pride, and that is what I witnessed in this thread. Pride and contention, contention and pride, no one with the wisdom to simply say, My mistake. Seems to me it all down to one simple Christian acronym, A.F.M.  "Admit" it, "Fix" it, and "Move On". So simple and yet Christians make it so complicated by introducing other things because of their hurt feelings or pride. I believe that even as Christians we allow our pride to rule us because we don't want to look bad to others. We're still ruled to some degree by the pride of this life.  This too is sin.

I heard one comment that struck me curious. "Why should Christians apologize when others are not expected to do the same?" Well, because Christians are not like others. Or at least, they're not supposed to be. They are Christians, and as such, answer to a higher authority. There is nothing wrong with having a contrite heart. The world things it makes us weak, but Christians should know better.

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise". -Psalm 51:17

Finally, I believe that a sincere Christian apology for our careless words and actions is less about easing our own guilt, and more about helping heal those who we have hurt. Yes, we should have compassion for them. We often need those words of contrition from a fellow sinner who is bound to be a representative of Jesus.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Pearson on January 03, 2010, 09:35:25 AM
[Soapbox mode on]

Welcome Dustin,
 Nicely stated. You'll get no argument from me. It seems the spirit is always willing, but the flesh is weak.

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Melanie on January 03, 2017, 01:45:02 AM
Real Christians Don't Apologize

Romans 8:9-21  (9-30-07)



Truly, this is one of the most ridiculous comments and verses out of context that I have ever read from someone professing Christianity. Real Christians don't apologize?

"For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin. Psalms 38:18"

Real Christias apologize to God and man for their wrongdoing. Any wrongdoing against anyone is sin, and all sin should be apologized for. So God forgive me for my sin, and anyone here who I have sinned against I ask the same.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Pearson on January 04, 2017, 01:52:52 PM
[Soapbox mode on]

Melanie,
I agree in that instance. In other instances, no. To me, Christianity has been so compromised today by false teachings and ministries that we would be constantly apologizing or them if we start down that path of apology for wrongdoing (the Crusades, Racism, Barth, etc.). I don't think we should have to apologize for the sins of others, but yes for the sins we commit. I think that should be obvious to real Christians, and those who don't accept this do do because of pride and stubbornness. I'm not going to apologize for the crusades or racist reformed writers, because that's not my sin. And we cannot apologize for others, since apology by definition is a type of admitting wrong doing. Neither we nor Christian doctrine had any part in these actions, thus we have no reason to personally apologize for the bad actions of others.

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Gerry on January 04, 2017, 02:30:25 PM
I just finished reading through this whole thread with much interest and I'm interested to know what John did that was so egregious? Since I didn't see it in any of the posts.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on January 05, 2017, 04:38:39 AM
Gerry, it's a long story. Basically, this started a long time ago. Rather that get into it all again, I'll just say this thread is a continuation, or rather spinoff, of another topic thread in which John made some rather sweeping bad generalizations about Baptists, which many here (and rightly so) took offense at. Myself included, since I'm a Reformed Baptist. There are many Baptists here, or at least there was. Penne apologized for making jokes or light of the issue, but I think the point was that John refused to apologize for his comments. Anyway, that's how the thread was created or got started. Evidently Shirley wanted to hear opinions on when a Christian should apologize, if ever? That's where the title came from. Some believe there is no real moral obligation for any apology, others think that a Christian having done wrong should apologize just because that is his new spirit and nature. So this thread was basically delving into what was our Christian responsibility (if any) regarding apologies when we offend another Christian. I hope that helps your understanding.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Emily on January 05, 2017, 05:36:47 PM
People get offended so easily. Of course I'm not Baptist so it's easy for me to say that. On the other hand, I do understand why a Baptist might be offended by what was said. Christian beliefs are nothing to joke about, whether good or bad.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Simon on January 08, 2017, 12:09:25 AM
Interesting article on this subject

https://sojo.net/articles/christians-it-s-ok-apologize-non-christians

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Hammerle Labinowic on January 08, 2017, 09:12:15 AM
I would have to say that apologizing for a true Christian is basic. If you wrong someone, you apologize. To Christian or non Christian. Since there are very few true Christians, there are very few Christians who will humble themselves, swallow their pride and apologize.

Matthew 5:23-24 KJV
"Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift".

Isn't it really a question of humility, which the natural man seldom has, and the Christian fights to maintain? We all have trouble with the flesh. Speaking only for myself, I have a hard time apologizing. It's not something that comes naturally, since we are all flesh. But I know it is the will of God.

Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Larry on January 09, 2017, 12:08:20 AM

The attitude of a brother should be one of reconciliation and understanding among the group of saints. And if not, the Bible says we should look at them as a heathen and not of the spirit of grace. Wrongdoing should be addressed and the offending one humble to accept responsibility without playing the victim.

 Matthew 18:15-17
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

This is the Calvinist view of this issue, which I hold and is held by most Puritans and Reformed writers of old. Work it out in the church.
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Matrix on January 12, 2017, 07:21:32 PM
The Bible tells us a lot about apologizing and confessing our sins. Learning about the consequences of sins and the harm we do to others leads us to why apologizing is important. Joseph's brothers apologized to him for selling him into slavery. In apologizing we learn that there is an importance in adhering to God's plan. We also learn that God is very forgiving, and people should strive to following in God's footsteps. Also, apologizing is a way of recognizing and confessing our sins, which is an important part of our daily Christian walk. It has a way of clearing the air between people and between us and God. When we apologize, we look for forgiveness for our sins.

Sometimes it means apologizing to people for what we have done to them. Sometimes we also have to be patient and allow other people to get over it. Meanwhile, God can forgive us whether we ask or not, but it is still our responsibility to ask for it.

from Kelli Mahoney
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Melanie on January 15, 2017, 02:08:00 PM
[Soapbox mode on]

Melanie,
I agree in that instance. In other instances, no. To me, Christianity has been so compromised today by false teachings and ministries that we would be constantly apologizing or them if we start down that path of apology for wrongdoing (the Crusades, Racism, Barth, etc.). I don't think we should have to apologize for the sins of others, but yes for the sins we commit.

That's what I meant. Not that we should apologize for others, but for our own sins. I also don't believe we are obligated to apologize for the crusades, slavery etc. That's not our own personal sins, but the sins of our fathers.  We are on the same page.


 I think that should be obvious to real Christians, and those who don't accept this do do because of pride and stubbornness. I'm not going to apologize for the crusades or racist reformed writers, because that's not my sin. And we cannot apologize for others, since apology by definition is a type of admitting wrong doing. Neither we nor Christian doctrine had any part in these actions, thus we have no reason to personally apologize for the bad actions of others.

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
[/quote]
Title: Re: When Should A Christian Apologize?
Post by: Bunyan on February 02, 2017, 11:30:01 AM

 I think that should be obvious to real Christians, and those who don't accept this do do because of pride and stubbornness.

Melanie and Pearson, I think that because of today's pressures, Christians are becoming more prone to anger, backbiting strife, and  so dig their heals in. In my day (dating myself here) there use to be compromise, but today it seems no one wants to admit any culpability. That's why most marriages break up also. One or both parties think they are right and so it's "my way or the highway> There's no compromise because that shows weakness. That's not how relationships, Christian, marriage or friendships should work. Sometimes we're just wrong. No shame in that. Everyone is wrong sometimes.