The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Apologetics => Topic started by: Dana Pescator on August 22, 2003, 02:57:00 PM

Title: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dana Pescator on August 22, 2003, 02:57:00 PM
I just read an article about spanking children, and I don't think that I am in agreement with it. Beating children has never been the answer to discipline. There are many great books which prove this. Children need to be loved. The old saying that you get more bees with honey than with vinegar still holds true.

What do you are think about this subject? Are we making our children into monsters by beating them? It seems those who beat their children, their children grow up violent and disjointed and troubled. I hear about it on the news all the time. We need to find better ways to discipline our kids instead of violence.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dan on August 22, 2003, 04:13:42 PM
I agree. I can see how this situation can get so frustrating for parents, but children act out because they are disconnected and want attention. To spank them would be to make them as violent as you are being. It will send them such confusing messages that they will never become disciplined. Children are precious, but they just don't have the ability or strength to grasp christian boundaries and laws without peaceful prodding. Spanking is wrong as we agree, and so we must seek alternative methods.

There is really no quick fix solution for having children behave, but a time-out certainly will help them stop and think about their actions. With a little patience and careful planning you can discipline your children without violence to them.

One way is to not scream at them when they do something wrong, but give them a pat on the back and say you know they'll do better next time. Give them positive stimulation and feedback and they'll respond positively. They won't be trying to get your attention if you head that off by giving them your attention beforehand. If you give them positive attention, they won't be looking to get negative attention.

Children are not inherently evil, despite what calvinists claim, I see love and adoration in their eyes when I look at them. Think what must be going through their little minds when parents hurt them and physically, mentally, or emotionally abuse them by barking out orders or punishing them.

I am praying that other Christians will have some good wisdom and sound advice for parents, hopefully which doesn't include hurting children or causing them pain by spanking. There is enough pain in the world.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Glenda on August 22, 2003, 07:03:08 PM
WHAT SAYETH THE SCRIPTURE:
Prov.15:10
 Correction [is] grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: [and] he that hateth reproof shall die.
 
Prov.15:11
  Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Prov.22:6
 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
 
Prov.22:15
 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Prov.23:12
  Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

prov. 23:13
 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
 
prov.23:14
 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov.23:15
  My son, if thine heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, even mine.
Prov.23:22
  Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old.
 
  I am not an advocate for "abusing children" and I would never "abuse my , or any other other child in my charge. But if I cant correct and or spank a child when it is needed I wont keep them. I remember parents saying , "it hurts me more than it hurts my child and I remember thinking ...yeah right! but as a parent I know it does hurt a loving, godly parent to spank a child more  than it hurts the child. These people who are coming around saying dont spank are in contradiction to what the bible says, and as a parent to 4 grown sons and a 10 year old girl I will say, you better be spanking if they need it or you'll pay for it later! This day in time people blow kids egos up and brag on their kids and NO-Where in the bible is that talked about, but the bible DOES talk about being humble.
Also the "world " says that we should'nt hit or punish our children I would like to remind you that :

1John 4:5,6
 says:  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.  
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
 
Just my Humble opinion!
Glenda
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Bryan on August 22, 2003, 09:27:14 PM
WHAT SAYETH THE SCRIPTURE

Words of wisdom, Glenda.  Scripture is our only guide to raising children.  I can't believe the comments I am seeing in this thread from Dana and Dan.

Dana said:
Beating children has never been the answer to discipline

Parents have spanked their kids since the dawn of time.  Now in this politically correct age we have Oprah Winfrey to tell us what parents have not known all this time--spanking our children is not the answer!!!  Dana, I got spanked when I was a kid.  And most of the time I NEEDED to be spanked.  And the next time I started to do that same naughty thing again, my parents only needed to give me the "look" and I knew they meant business.  

There are many great books which prove this.

Well, Dana, the greatest book of all proves these other "great" books wrong.

Proverbs 23:13 - Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
 
Do you understand what God is saying here?  The child will not die if you beat him.  If you love him, you will spank him.  It's that simple.  I don't care what all of your books from all of these psychobabble teachers say.  The Bible is clear that spanking is necessary and is not destructive to kids.

It seems those who beat their children, their children grow up violent and disjointed and troubled. I hear about it on the news all the time.

If you mean beat as in beat up to the point of causing physical harm, yes, you are right.  That is not discipline; it is abuse.  And no one here is arguing in favor of abuse.  But spanking a kid on the behind or slapping his wrists or the back of his legs is not abuse.  If done with the proper motives and common sense, it is loving discipline.

Dan said:
One way is to not scream at them when they do something wrong, but give them a pat on the back and say you know they'll do better next time.

ROTFLOL!!!!!     Dan, have you seen the kids of parents who do this?  There is one word to describe them.  BRATS!!!!  When I see parents trying to "reason" with their kids this way, I feel like taking the parents aside and slapping some sense into THEM.  Kids are emotionally immature.  Sometimes the only way to get through to them is to speak the language they understand.  Spanking.  That is why the Bible says not to spare the rod.

Children are not inherently evil, despite what calvinists claim

Psalm 58:3   The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Sorry, Dan, but God disagrees with you.  Children are inherently evil just as all men are inherently evil and need to be born again to be freed from the bondage of sin.  We can believe your words, or we can believe God's Word.

Think what must be going through their little minds when parents hurt them and physically, mentally, or emotionally abuse them by barking out orders or punishing them.

I'm sure what goes through their head when parents "bark out" orders to them is what goes on in our heads when we don't like the orders we are given by our authority figures.  Our prideful hearts inwardly rebel against that authority.  That is because the heart is evil above all things and desperately wicked.  We don't like anyone telling us what to do.  That is why man wants the Ten Commandments removed from public display everywhere he goes.  He doesn't want to be reminded that God has laid down the law and told man what to do and not to do.  

I am praying that other Christians will have some good wisdom and sound advice for parents, hopefully which doesn't include hurting children or causing them pain by spanking.

And I am praying that other Christians will have the good wisdom to seek out God's Word for direction in rearing children and not the "we shouldn't spank our kids" false teachers who abound these days.

Glenda said:

and as a parent to 4 grown sons and a 10 year old girl I will say, you better be spanking if they need it or you'll pay for it later!

And all God's people said,  AMEN!




Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: R.ellis on August 22, 2003, 10:09:43 PM
No need for me to quote any scriptures on this subject as Glenda covered them rather well.  I would however like to submit my thoughts...

Having grown up in the country in a large family I have seen my fair share of "whippings".  By today's "enlightened" standards they would have been more fairly classified as abuse.  But these types of whippings have always been the norm all throughout the ages until this one.   We are all familiar with images of by-gone days in classrooms of teachers having a whipping switch or stick hanging above the chalkboard.  I myself have felt the end of those paddles during my school years of the 70's.  I will wholeheartedly conclude that I needed those whippings then from both my earthly Father and from the Schoolteacher.  And guess what, I'm over 40 and still getting whippings from my Heavenly Father (Heb 12:5-11)

I'm  a firm believer one should lay aside personal thought, human teachings on such subjects, and go solely to scripture for guidance.  The Lord lays on the heavy burden of parents to use firm discipline in raising their children.  Of course it must be based on Love, but at times the rod, or in the case of my children a paddle is called for.

Paddling a child is indeed a painful exercise for both parent and child.  I have often marvelled at the way a child behaves for the next few days afterwards, it's as if you have a whole new kid.  The Lord knows what He's doing when He tells us to discipline them firmly.  Spanking children, in my opinion, instills in them a healthy fear and reverence for their parents.  That's indeed the same principal the Lord is instilling in us when He spanks us.

To conclude, I believe a thorough study in the fall of man, or man's total depravity will reveal to anyone with a spirtual mind that children are not the little, if you will, "angel's" the world makes them out to be.  There is plenty of scripture to show otherwise.  I'll leave those scriptures for someone else to bring forward...  *

*As I was typing this Bryan already brought some of these forward

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Glenda on August 22, 2003, 11:16:07 PM
Here is a link to an excellent article on this site dealing with how to train your child in a Godly manner:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/loving_art_of_spanking.shtml

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on August 23, 2003, 03:55:16 AM
Quote
And all God's people said,  AMEN!

I add my AMEN! to Bryan's for Glenda's initial
post.  One but needs to compare the integrity and character evidenced in those of earlier generations who were raised along biblical guidelines, against  the pedominantly morally bankrupt generation of today, (exceptions of course like our Rebel and those raised by godly parents),  to know that God's way is the best way.

As already noted,  the Bible in no way advocates abuse.  Just the opposite is true.  Namely,  responsible parenting rooted in love, with a view of children as blessings, towards whom we are to be good 'stewards'.

And Let's not forget about the worse type of abuse of all -- emotional/psychological abuse from permissive, indifferent, or uncaring parents who neglect the discipline of their children.  

Eph 6:4[/u]

4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.


Col 3:21

21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.


judy

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Jen on August 23, 2003, 10:37:13 AM
Much good Biblical advice and scripture has been given on this subject. I just wanted to quickly add my 2 cents worth. I grew up in a home where... I was NOT spanked. I was disrespectful, a backtalker, rebellious, a liar, a hater, and violent. My Dad chose not to spank me, I wish he had. I wish my parents would have set boundaries for me and not worried so much about my "feelings". I lied and decieved my parents and had no respect for them much of my up bringing. I recieved the yelling and cursing instead, so for my teenage years that is how I dealed with confrontation, I would just yell louder and curse more than my opponent.
Then...came Salvation! I was in such a pit of SELF. The whole world revolved around me. Then I became hungry and thristy for the things of God, I became very uncomfortable with my sin , I studied the scriptures and the Holy Spirit convicted me of my most miserable hell deserving condition. The reason why I lived in such a way is because I was a sinner. Then by God's Grace, He taught me that Jesus was and is THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. My husband and I have 5 boys. I remember vividly an argument we had one evening about spanking, our first son was about 8 months at the time and my husband wanted to talk with me about how we would discipline. I was just staring to learn of God from my Bible and I said, "No I will never spank my children."( I was not aware of submission yet either). My husband, patiently tried to reason with me about how he wanted to discipline. Then I read in my Bible, many of the verses which Glenda shared. I began to understand that we are all sinners, even small children. When a parent properly administers a spanking in love for correction it shows that our sins will reap consequences. God is holy and He cannot look upon sin. We must teach our children "in love" that we all deserve nothing but hell. God in His Mercy has chosen a people for Himself and when He saves us, we will have a desire to be obedient to His Commandments as we learn them from the Bible.  A parent should not be easily angered, nor display outbursts of wrath. It should be with the intention to teach. The infliction of pain by itself will possibly produce a rebellious individual(that is one who is already rebellious). All that a Christian does, needs to be for the Glory of God. As a mother, I love my children with an eternal love. I want them to be saved and not to perish. I discipline when they are disobedient. I also praise when they are obedient. I do not love them less or more depending on their behavior, but I do correct them differently. The bible teaches that Foolishness is bound to the heart of a child. I know this and see it. If I truly love my children I will discipline them for their soul's sake, not their bottoms sake, or their feelings sake. I guess my 2 cents turned into more like 10...smile. Time to go. Take Care.
In His Mercy,
Jen
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carol on August 23, 2003, 01:19:57 PM
I agree we should spank children when they need it.  Back in the days when children received spankings regularly, they were much more well behaved, respected their elders, and were much more pleasant to be around.   The high self-esteem movement of today has so changed our way of parenting.  Parents feel guilty if they even discipline their children anymore.  Parents worry that they might damage their self esteem.  We are told by mental health professionals to pay a lot of attention to our children.  The more attention we pay, the more we love them, and the better parents we are.  We are to praise them constantly, and protect them from frustration and failure.  I believe children have become addicted to praise and attention.  Our families are child-centered, instead of marriage-centered.  --When I was a child, we were told that children are to be seen and not heard.   My mother put me outside in the morning and told me to stay out and play all day.  She didn’t worry about keeping me entertained, about making sure I felt loved and happy all the time.  When I disobeyed, I had to go get a switch from a tree and bring it to her to use on me.   LOL. Talk about an humbling experience!   Of course, I didn’t like it at the time, but am so thankful today that I had a mother that loved me enough to discipline me and teach me humility, that the world didn’t revolve around me.   Love is not just a warm gushy feeling, it is doing what is best for a child, even if it hurts sometimes.  

My thoughts,
Carol
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Doug Johnson on August 24, 2003, 03:12:57 PM
I once believed in spankings. I keep hearing reformed christians say that "it's better to spank children than to let them run wild." But I don't think I believe that. Children remember their father's angry yelling and whacks on the butt and it takes years for them to understand how they got to be such timid and withdrawn adults. I'm sure parents did the best they knew how in old days but it's a new day now.

People who got spanked as children and just happened to appear to be normal do so in spite of those insults and violence, not because of it. How is violence a good example to set for children. I share the concerns of all those who wish to discuss parenting methods apart from spankings, and the surrounding social issues that result from that.

I gave up spankings because spankings interfered with my relationships with my children. I didn't want my children afraid of me, I wanted them to feel comfortable with telling me exactly how they felt, even if they expressed it angrily or even with curse words. It's the only way to communicate with them peacefully, solve the problems, and really get to the bottom of their rebellion.

You Christians act as though you don't make mistakes yourself. Parents make mistakes every day. I learned to apologize to my kids and accept their criticisms.

 I don't think that you all know this, but you could be arrested and charged with a crime for hitting your children. If you need help, there are many family services that keep a library of books on non-violent parenting. And many states have agencies that offer help and even workshops and support for parents who once spanked. You people have to get over your need for "the good ole days" and come into the 21st century. Because spanking is nothing more than a lack of self control. We need to be better parents and we won't have to spank, and will be able to raise our children free of violence and hurtful coercion.

Children deserve more than to be hit on by people twice their size, and who should know better.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: jd@ on August 25, 2003, 12:30:53 AM
No one is advocating "angry yelling" Doug.  We have to be careful to distinguish between the use and the abuse of spanking.  If it is done in a godly way, then yes - it does profit the child.

Quote
I don't think that you all know this, but you could be arrested and charged with a crime for hitting your children.

It's interesting that you say that.  Where I live the Government is considering legislation that will ban all smacking.  I believe this is religious discrimination because at least some Christians believe that the Bible commands (not just allows) smacking.



Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on August 25, 2003, 03:07:30 AM
Quote
Children remember their father's angry yelling and whacks on the butt and it takes years for them to understand how they got to be such timid and withdrawn adults. I'm sure parents did the best they knew how in old days but it's a new day now.

Doug,  I think it's important to distinguish between the issue of parenting in general, from the issue of spanking.  The relationship a parent establishes with their child, if a strong and loving one, is not going to crumble as a result of spanking.

Quote
People who got spanked as children and just happened to appear to be normal do so in spite of those insults and violence, not because of it. How is violence a good example to set for children.

You presume that it’s “in spite of” when the evidence suggests otherwise.  Also, "insults" can occur without anyone touching another, and is not the same thing as discipline.  'Violence' implies abuse, which is not condoned by anyone here, that I know of.

Quote
I gave up spankings because spankings interfered with my relationships with my children. I didn't want my children afraid of me, I wanted them to feel comfortable with telling me exactly how they felt, even if they expressed it angrily or even with curse words. It's the only way to communicate with them peacefully, solve the problems, and really get to the bottom of their rebellion.

No one is suggesting that other forms of discipline cannot be used, as much depends upon the child and the circumstances.   However, this seeming need of some parents to be their child's 'friend', and this fear that their child won't 'like' them, sets the stage for disrespectful and disobedient behavior.  Disobedience towards parents is no small matter, and makes the teaching of obedience to God that much more difficult.

I suspect that your relationship with your children did not suffer because you spanked them (assuming that’s all it was).   What child enjoys any kind of discipline?  And what child can’t quickly pick up on and take advantage of insecurity, hesitancy or inconsistency on the part of the parent?  One thing about a spanking -- it’s over quickly, brings home the point, and ‘clears the air’. :)   As opposed to prolonged tensions and built-up resentments, and escalating rebellion to see just how far they can stretch the limits, which arise from taking too little or no action at all.

Don’t misunderstand me when I say this, but children should fear the consequences of rebellious behavior.  Fear has it’s proper place. Some people even try to deny the fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom (Ps 111:10).

Deut 6:5-7, 12-13

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
12 Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Ps 34:9-11

9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
10 The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.


Quote
You Christians act as though you don't make mistakes yourself. Parents make mistakes every day. I learned to apologize to my kids and accept their criticisms.

I doubt any parent can honestly say that parenting is easy, or that they never made mistakes.  Saying I’m sorry is something that’s very important to model for our children.  As for criticism, I would rather use a different word; children should feel free to come to their parents with any concern, but it had better be expressed with an attitude of respect.  There are too many children today who disrespect authority and are allowed to control the household, rather than the other way around.

Eph 6:1-4

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers,  provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Col 3:20-21

20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.



Quote
I don't think that you all know this, but you could be arrested and charged with a crime for hitting your children. …. Because spanking is nothing more than a lack of self control. We need to be better parents and we won't have to spank, and will be able to raise our children free of violence and hurtful coercion…. Children deserve more than to be hit on by people twice their size, and who should know better.

Those laws you're speaking of are aimed at child abuse, not appropriate discipline which includes spanking.  (Though I admit some would like to make it otherwise).  No punishment should be administered unjustly,  nor with the intent to do harm, but rather with the intent to teach.  Since self-control is one of the lessons that children need to learn; an out-of-control parent should not lay a hand on their child.  Any parent who truly abuses their child deserves to be held accountable, and will ultimately have to answer to God.  The Bible makes this clear:

Matt 18:6

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


Quote
If you need help, there are many family services that keep a library of books on non-violent parenting. And many states have agencies that offer help and even workshops and support for parents who once spanked. You people have to get over your need for "the good ole days" and come into the 21st century.

Godly parents should recognize that our children belong to the Lord, and our ultimate desire is for their salvation.  A careful study of biblical principles of child rearing, which goes well beyond the topic of spankings, should guide us.  There are some good books by authors who recognize the authority of Scriptures.  It’s these permissive ‘2lst century’ books, who wrongly view all corporal punishment as ‘violent’ and abusive, while promoting a ‘ME’ generation of self-centered  people with under-developed consciences, no Christain values, and no fear of the Lord.  That’s what these ‘21st’ century books promote by and large.

When you consider what the Bible teaches as a whole about parenting, it’s not so much the issue of physical punishment per say.  The real issue is that of obedience,  which begins with obedience to parents.  Obedience to God is of utmost importance and a characteristic of a true believer in that they have an ongoing desire to be obedient.  This is no small matter when you consider these passages in the OT, which this side of the cross should not be taken literally because Jesus came to fulfill the law, but nonetheless show how serious this matter of obedience is to the Lord:

Prov 30:17

The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

Deut 21:18-23

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
[19
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

This brings to mind the incident in the OT (Num 15:32-36) where a man gathers a few sticks on the Sabbath – the day of rest.  For this seemingly minor infraction, God demanded he be stoned to death, because of the importance that we recognize our salvation rests wholly with Christ – the author and finisher of faith, towards which we can contribute nothing.  So the above account about the stoning of a disobedient son suggests that obedience and salvation go hand-in-hand – (a passage I will take great delight in showing my young adult son at the earliest opportunity   :)).

May God give you the patience and wisdom to raise godly children.

judy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carol on August 25, 2003, 08:32:22 AM
Very well said, Judy!

Carol
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Anne on August 26, 2003, 05:46:44 PM
Dana,
 I think this article may be helpful for you to read concerning this issue.

It's Not P.C. But Spanking Works

Source: Boston Herald
Published: October 20, 2000 Author: Betsy Hart

On the way back from a recent trip to visit family in Chicago, I found myself on a plan handling my three young children by myself. The 6- and 4-year-olds behaved well, which meant I could concentrate on minimizing any annoyance the 17-month-old might cause. So, I spent the entire time focused like a laser beam on pacifying her and keeping her from fussing. I was largely successful - and exhaused.

It later occurred to me that on that relatively short flight I got a little taste of what it's like to be a fairly typical parent these days - meaning one who is always intimidated by her children and their outbursts, and will do anything to avoid a tantrum.

I see it constantly, in settings both public and private. Sure, maybe sometimes it's just another mom trying to keep the peace with her young toddler out of consideration for others. But when I regularly watch 3-, 4-, 5- and 6-year-olds completely intimidating their parents, throwing fits, calling the shots, I cringe. These are parents who don't have much confidence in their necessary position of authority in their children's lives.

And I can pretty much guarantee they are not parents who judiciously spank their children. It's not politically correct, it's certainly not something today's "experts" approve of, but appropriate physical discipline at the appropriate ages trains a child to understand that words like "no" have meaning, and that the parent is in a position of loving authority in the child's life. One doesn't have to be a psychologist to know that feelings often follow actions. Properly and lovingly using spanking to train a child a child to outwardly respect authority and the rights of others or to control his temper will in time inform his heart on those matters.

Besides, if I told my kids I loved them but never touched them, would they believe it? So too, if I tell them "no" but never physically back up the word, can it have much meaning? Too often, I see parents who refuse to spank resort instead to bribing, begging, screaming, empty threats, or ineffectively rendered "time-outs." Noe of that happens in our house. A line is crossed, a controlled spanking is rendered, there are hugs all around and we move on. In fact this consistency means my kids get the message fast - and spankings quickly become relatively infrequent for each child.

The "experts" of course suggest that a controlled spanking teaches "violence." What nonsense. To use a very loose analogy, that's like saying that allowing police officers to use judicious physical force teaches criminals to be violent. Wade Horn is a noted child psychologist and head of the National Fatherhood Initiative, an organization which encourages responsible parenting. He believes that a number of different discipline methods including appropriately administered 'Time-outs," which he prefers, are effective. But Horn says there is no evidence that judicious spanking causes children to "act-out" more aggressively as some psychologists maintain the studies show.

Instead, such studies just as likely evidence the obvious - that children who are naturally prone to "act-out" more aggressively simply get more spankings.

But his biggest concern, he says, is that if we remove spanking as an option parents can use to intervene early before bad behavior escalates, that might increase the risk of child abuse if parents then find themselves pushed to the point they strike out in anger.

Today's children, thanks to the "experts," have to be the least spanked in our history. Yet our current generation of young people may be the most violent, depressed and "angry" we've ever seen. They are certainly the most medicated. Not only are more than four million young people on Ritalin to control staggering levels of Attention Deficit Disorder, some 2.5 million are on anti-depressants. And since 1990 the number of preschoolers - yes, preschoolers - prescribed such drugs has risen dramatically.

Spanking is hardly a panacea for too many young people spinning dangerously out of control. But it does seem to me the fear of using appropriate physical discipline with one's children is a sympton of a larger problem: an epidemic of parents afraid to stake out their rightful position of authority and responsibility in their children's lives, for the training, well-being and protection of their kids. Betsy Hart is a commentator for national news stations.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dan on August 27, 2003, 03:06:32 AM
Anne

To my mind, hitting anyone remains battery, and battery is abuse. Special interest groups is the only reason why in some places it is still looked upon as OK to hit children. Spanking is shaped by the person administering it, their frustration, rage, ego, pride, issues or momentary need for instant compliance.

Do you know that to perpetuate biblical as well as legal foundation for the use of what you call "reasonable disciplinary" action by christian parents against their kids will ultimately give new licence to child abusers in the name of the bible. Saying it's o\k to beat children, even with the hand will confuse well-intentioned parents and place them in the compromising position of being legally charged. This has already happened in some states.  You can't just hit your children anymore. Not without being reported to authorities.

Why can't we just say that spanking is wrong because it teaches the wrong lessons? And if spanking works, please tell me why there are so many troubled children in our world?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: jlkjr on August 27, 2003, 08:27:51 AM
Dan, Dana, And Doug,
Since Glenda did so fine a job with her scriptural proofs, I don't think it necessary to be redundant. You seem to be confused with the concept of discipline as opposed to abuse. Biblical discipline is done out of love for the child in a way that God mandates. It is never done in anger or in an abusive manner. God, the Creator knows how to deal with his creation.  This may be a "new day", but human nature is unchanged since the fall of Adam.  The wisdom of God continues to be foolishness to man.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2003, 10:12:14 AM
Dan,
You ask why there are so many troubled children in our world? The answer should be obvious from the testimony of the scriptures. This world is sin cursed. It is the outworking of sin which causes much of what we see. I pray you will put aside your own understanding and recieve the Word of God as your only authority. If God has saved a child they will have a desire to be obedient to God and their parents. The world and it's many voices will try to lead astray God's people, but the sheep will only listen to God and His Word. What I think about "spanking" or "not spanking" does not matter. The only thing that matters is what God instructs me to do. He tells me "be not soon angry". I am not to lash out at anyone. What you are trying to compare are two different views into one package, with NO Biblical basis. If you feel so strongly and can show your position from the Word of God then we who seek to be Biblically minded will listen...until then I do not think we will understand each other. May God have mercy on us all.
Jen
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Peng Bao on August 31, 2003, 04:33:57 AM
Why are so many of you so unnecessarily defensive about the "judicious" use of spanking? Some of you seem almost apologetic about doing it God's way. You shouldn't be timid and defensive about your hitting your child when they need correction. Christian parents have a responsibility to discipline their kids, and spanking is a very important part of bringing up a child in Godly love.

"Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." Proverbs 19:18-

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." -Proverbs 22:6

Despite what the "experts" say, God is still the best authority on rearing Godly children. In China, we have a tradition of being stern on our children and it seems strange that there would even be this debate by conservative Christians. Who are these "experts" and how does one become an "expert" with respect to child raising? You would think that before they came along, the world didn't survive and children were all murderers and violent criminals. That line is so not true. If we ignore the word of God and our parental instincts, the problems we see with children today can only get worse.

I can't think of a better way to show our children that we love them, and to teach them responsibility and accountability. That's what's missing in the world today. Accountability. And more than that, when done with explanation it gives them security knowing that the parent cares about them and only does it for their benefit. They may not understand it all right away, but you can be very sure that if you raise them right and teach them correctly, they will thank you for it when they are old enough to understand.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sue Landow on August 31, 2003, 07:52:15 AM
I wish you guys on this site could instruct other christians on parenting because not a lot hold to your views. I have to commend you for remaining faithful to biblical precepts. What you are saying requires a common sense approach to scripture, christian effort, and often personal sacrifice. And these are all things which are not really PC these days.

The modern parents we have today have created a lot of the the problems by allowing their progeny to get out of control. Even many christian parents have reneged on their christian obligation to discipline and biblically train their offspring.

I grew up in the generation before the Dr. Spock books which helped to tear down parental responsibility in discipline. But I don't know if you all are aware that even Dr. Spock admitted he was wrong about that before he died. Unfortunately, the damage had already been done. Isn't that how it often is in life.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Christ_Alone on September 02, 2003, 01:56:34 PM
I just read an article about spanking children, and I don't think that I am in agreement with it. Beating children has never been the answer to discipline. There are many great books which prove this. Children need to be loved. The old saying that you get more bees with honey than with vinegar still holds true.

What do you are think about this subject? Are we making our children into monsters by beating them? It seems those who beat their children, their children grow up violent and disjointed and troubled. I hear about it on the news all the time. We need to find better ways to discipline our kids instead of violence.


I haven't read the replies to this, so if I'm repeating something someone else has already said, just ignore it.

The first problem is, in your very first 2 sentences.  You say you read an article on spanking, then you turn around and call it beating.

Spanking a child, when he needs it (and I've never yet met one who doesn't need it from time to time), and beating your child, are as different as night and day. Assuming that spanking, is the same as beating, is one of the most common misunderstandings folks have, about physical discipline.

In my chat room the other day, we were discussing this very topic.  It was the general consesus among all there (all present were over 30 years of age), that most people our age and older, grew up getting spanked, when we deserved it.  And most of us, turned out just fine.

On the other hand, the generation after us, that grew up being brainwashed that spanking is beating, or somehow abusive, those people (and their children) are the ones with major issues about right and wrong (i.e., there are no lines, they do as they please).

Granted, not all unspanked people turn out to be like this, but from what I've observed, and from the general agreement in the chat room the other night, most have.

Comparing that to, the "monsters" that came from a childhood of spankings?  I dont know, I'd say most folks who turn out to be "monsters", would be, no matter how they were raised.

Tough subject... but I do believe physical discipline is supported by the Scriptures, and I know folks who I know personally, who were spanked as kids, all say they deserved it, and all still love and respect their parents a great deal.  No monsters in my circle of friends, and they all got it, when they earned it.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Drew on September 02, 2003, 06:50:54 PM

The first problem is, in your very first 2 sentences.  You say you read an article on spanking, then you turn around and call it beating.

Spanking a child, when he needs it (and I've never yet met one who doesn't need it from time to time), and beating your child, are as different as night and day. it.


Careful what you say, lest you be found to contradict your own premise of doing as God commands. The bible doesn't use the word spanking, that's a new word of modern times. God speaks of beating or hitting the child with a rod or a slim stick. And when you get right down to it, spanking is beating. Check your dictionary. If I take my hand and hit my child on his bottom, I have beaten him on his bottom. These word games just don't work because the scriptures obviously speak of beating kids who deserve it. parents did it routinely 30 years ago.

Unless you're going to tell me times have changed and so the bible has also.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Christ_Alone on September 02, 2003, 07:38:54 PM

The first problem is, in your very first 2 sentences.  You say you read an article on spanking, then you turn around and call it beating.

Spanking a child, when he needs it (and I've never yet met one who doesn't need it from time to time), and beating your child, are as different as night and day. it.


Careful what you say, lest you be found to contradict your own premise of doing as God commands. The bible doesn't use the word spanking, that's a new word of modern times. God speaks of beating or hitting the child with a rod or a slim stick. And when you get right down to it, spanking is beating. Check your dictionary. If I take my hand and hit my child on his bottom, I have beaten him on his bottom. These word games just don't work because the scriptures obviously speak of beating kids who deserve it. parents did it routinely 30 years ago.

Unless you're going to tell me times have changed and so the bible has also.


Let's be blunt, shall we?

Where the Scriptures speak to physically discipling your child, they do not condone or even suggest, abusing your child - which is in fact what most people picture in their mind, when they hear of a "beating".

Let's see a comparison chart:

Bible: Pr 23:13  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

beatest: Hebrew word nakah
definition (in this context): to strike, to chastise

This verse, and the usage of this word, in this verse (and there are many which have already been posted), never once suggests to parents, to abuse their child.

Modern society: "If you spank your kid you are beating him!"

beating (Merriam Webster):
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : an act of striking with repeated blows so as to injure or damage

When a parent swats a kid on his backside, it is NOT to injure or damage him - that constitutes abuse, and a sick and twisted desire on the part of the parent, to hurt his own kid.

Do spankings hurt? Sure they do, they're supposed to smart, and make the kid remember the consequences for wrong actions.  But are they supposed to injure, or damage the child? NO.

As a mother of 7 children, from ages 20 down to 2 months, and as a person who grew up getting spanked when she earned it, I do know a little of what I'm talking about. My children are my heart, and the last thing in the world I want for any of them, is pain, in any form.  Regardless, there are times when they've crossed the line, and earned for themselves the consequence of a spanking.

God has layed down the best pattern for this, in His word.  Folks can play word-games all they like, but the fact of the matter is, even God chastens those He loves - and better to be chastened by your earthly parents in love, and learn a healthy respect for authority, than to find yourselves in the hands of an angry God.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Kyle on September 03, 2003, 06:14:42 AM
Beating is a word that's been warped by society to mean child abuse. But beatings are not child abuse. I was beaten with a belt as a child by my father and today I thank God for that. It's the only thing that kept me out of prison like the rest of my hoodlum friends. I know it was really God directing him to discipline me. It showed he cared. My friends parents didn't care whether they stayed out until 2 am and came home with stollen goods. It all makes a big difference when you have discipline.

I have numerous times seen small children calling the shots in public with their passive and beaten-down parents. I have stood in super markets and watched these parents going out of their way to placate their rebellious and misbehaving kids with what can only be described as them pathetically begging them to nehave, or offering them bribes such as buying them something.

One day there was this child who was whining, running up and down the aisles and deliberately bumping into other shoppers with the cart. The mother whispers "okay sweetie, be good now" or "honey, now please be quiet and stop bumping into people for mommy." This nonsense went on for at least five minutes straight. She ended up bribing the child by buying him candy, and then potato chips as he started acting up again.

This is the result of a generation that will not discipline their kids when they need it. They have abandoned the biblical principles and the fruit of this is seen all over this country.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Christ_Alone on September 03, 2003, 11:31:16 AM
Hi Kyle,

I read your post and had to laugh... not really because what you describe is funny, but because it's so ironic.

Everything you say, is dead on.  How many of us have seen these same kids in the grocery store, or at the park, or anywhere in public, acting like the classic BRAT?  And the parents always react the same way, pleading with their kids to hush, or be good, or settle down.

And then... these same parents always say the same things... "I dont know how to get thru to him" or "I just can't seem to settle him down".

When I was a kid, 30 years ago, and I went out in public with my mom, not only did we not dare scream and yell for the spaghetti-o's, instead of the choice she made for our lunch, most people my age now, as kids, never even considered screaming and yelling.  We were better kids, smarter, or somehow more angelic, than the kids today?

No... we were unregenerate little people - just like the kids today, but the huge difference is, we knew where the line was, we were taught respect for our parents, and we (for the most part) did what we were told.  Sure there was always that 1 kid that we all knew, who did all the really dangerous stuff, like yell at his mom (then run before dad got home) or stole the candy from the corner store, but this kid was the exception to the rule, most of us sinned vicariously  ;) through that 1 kid we all knew, we didn't dare do the stuff he was doing.

Now?  The opposite is true.  In any age group of kids, the kids that are well-mannered and polite in public, that hardly ever get into trouble, that are the GOOD example in the group, they're few and far between.

Some months back, my husband and I were in the grocery store, and there was a little boy, maybe 2, there with his mother (we assume she was the mom)... anyway, this kid and his mom were about 2-3 aisles over, and we could hear this kid screaming something.  I dont know what he was saying, he was just very loud.  We heard them all the way through the store, and finally by the time we were almost done shopping, they were in the same aisle as us.  He yelled something again, then got a huge smile on his face as his mom smiled back at hime and "hushed" him.  He was a really cute kid, and I mentioned to Kev (my husband) how cute the kid with the loudmouth was.  

Kev says "cute!?! did you hear what that kid was saying!?!" I didn't, I wasn't really paying attention.  I listened to him again, and what he had been screaming through the store the whole time was "f___ you!!"

Honestly, I wanted to throw up.  It blew me away.  Our own son is about the same age as that kid, and it just rocked my boat to hear another little boy, saying that - not to mention, the mom, condoning it.

I wont even go into my thoughts and my husband's thoughts, on proper discipline for the MOTHER...

But this is the kind of thing that goes on, and then 15 years down the road, this is the mother sniveling and crying to someone about what a rotten brat her adorable son turned out to be.  DUH... hello?  

Raising kids isn't a game, and we're not given children so that we can be their "friends".  Sure it's great to have a close relationship with your kids, so that when they need to trust someone and get honest, reliable answers, they can come to you - but they have friends, they need PARENTS.

They need people willing to sacrifice their time, their heart, their money, their good night's sleep, the last cookie, and yes, the smack on the hand, or the swat on the hind end, when need be.

All anyone has to do, is take a hard look at society today, to see the difference in the lack of respect that young people have for their elders, and ask "what is different about this generation?"

The next time you're driving down the street, and a kid of around 10-12 years old, is crossing the street in front of you, slowly, slouching, staring at you, with an "I'll take my sweet time crossing this road" look on his face (you know who I'm talking about, you've seen these kids), you can bet, that kid's parents are either busy with their jobs - or just so want to be his "friend" that they can't be bothered to properly discipline him.

Kev and I have talked about this so many times.  He commented that when we were kids, if we dared do that, the guy driving would stop, get out, swat the kid's hind end, take him home to his mother, and then she'd swat the kid's hind end, and demand he apologize to the neighbor.

Thing is, we didn't DO that kind of thing when we were kids.  What was different?

Respect for authority - fear of getting spanked - and knowing there was a line that we had no business crossing.

Kids today, by and large, do not have this in their lives.  

Ugh... just a few thoughts, by a parent who desires to be a friend to my children, but knows it's more important to be their PARENT, first.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Jeff on September 04, 2003, 05:56:36 AM
I know exactly what you mean. At restaurants, I have seen children throw temper tantrums simply because the parent (and I use the term loosely) said that there are no hot dogs on the menu, or because the food took too long in coming. It has really become very hard to have a decent experience in a restaurant because of these bad, undisciplined and uncontrollable kids.

And does anyone notice that these are mostly "single mothers" who allow their children to walk all over them and humiliate them in public? Could it be that children out of wedlock and the rising divorce rate also plays a part in the lack of discipline with children? The fall into sins of fornication and divorce. It all gets back to the breaking of God's laws.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on September 04, 2003, 06:36:32 PM
And does anyone notice that these are mostly "single mothers" who allow their children to walk all over them and humiliate them in public?

Underlying the anti-spanking movement, I think, is a rebellion against acknowledging and discerning right from wrong. If anyone enforces a moral code then they must likewise be subjected to the same code. If there are no moral absolutes then spanking is superfluous and illogical.

Since each fallen person secretly views themselves as the rightful ruler of their world -- there cannot be a greater God than themselves. They become in their prideful conceit their own god; a god that can never do wrong or be subjugated. Whatever their inner-man believes to be right -- is right, because whatever a god does must, logically, be proper and right.

When a child exhibits the same expression of ego, the parent can only sympathize and condone it, how can it be corrected? To correct the child is to admit my 'god' is mutable and needing of correction. Even worse, if the child exhibits a moral code (Biblical or not) then the parent is reminded that they are wrong by comparison. The most detestable morality anyone can exhibit is one that is subject to a single, authoritative, creator God -- this is every fallen persons archenemy and ultimate fear.

Losing the war against God is to see yourself as wrong, destroying your godhood, and bringing on an avalanche of guilt and pain for being wrong. The pain of realization is too painful; so it must be avoided at all costs -- even to the point of believing absurd and contradictory 'truths' in the face of reality.

Lastly, a moral child will be seductively corrupted by the parent to remove the 'offense' of innocence seen in the child’s desire to be honest, moral, caring, or helpful. The child is subtly taught by the parent and the amoral world that wrong is right and right wrong. Truth is taught as a lie, and soon the child rebels at the hypocrisy. To the Christian witnessing rebellion in the supermarket we think 'spanking'.

But soon the rebellion is over; the child gives in and accepts the world. His youthful innocence lost suffering from the guilt of being wrong for believing wrongly, he finds acceptance in his wrong by his parents and society. He is now a good citizen properly obedient to himself, his parents, and others like himself.

There is one more thing. The child continually needs to remove the awareness of wrong, to silence the conscience and end the nagging pain of guilt. Soon, in steps a person more evil than himself to reassure him all is good. This person may be a wife, politician, activist, minister, etc., someone who can support his godhood worldview. Like an addict, he finds however that he needs this person desperately and without him/her he feels like nothing. The pain comes back and he feels like he is dying inside (romantic love is a case in point).  Unbeknownst to him, he is bound by this need to his master. He seeks the absence of pain, which he calls 'pleasure'.

Objects can also become means to turn the focus away from the inner turmoil. The next kick is the next purchase, the next drug, the next consuming desire --wine, women and song. Religion may replace any of these tyrants. Allegiance is switched from object to object, but never to God.

Spanking a child, unless it is done in anger borne out of impatience by a little god who is failing to control its world, is seen through their eyes as a torturous beating. Like a demon screaming in pain before Christ, the mere thought of a Sovereign moral order scares fallen man -- more than death itself. Even death by suicide is preferred, much better than facing the reality of our sin and acknowledging God. Thus, all mankind is together become unprofitable.

In conclusion, some unregenerate parents do spank and seemingly are not motivated by anything near what I've written above. They appear decent moral people. However, their heart is desperately wicked. While you may spank because sin is abhorrent to you, for them the reason is different. The overriding motivation is pride. Pride motivates parents to try and raise well-ordered 'good' children. They want to be seen by others as 'good' (what else could they be). They spank when they are embarrassed, saying, "how could you do that to me". Whatever the reason, it is not done in love. Only a child of God is capable of loving, and that by the grace of God. Do not fool yourself on that point. Apart from God living in you to will and do His good pleasure, you would do no different. And thus, you are able to understand their situation and forgive them.

There are lusts, needs, wants, emotional attachments etc., in fallen man, but not an ounce of love to give. It may be the kind of love the world gives and knows, but it is not from God. If you are a true Christian, then you will spank your child, in love, and deliver his soul from hell. If you are not, you will subtly encourage the same wrongs that exist in you, spanking only when there is gain for your inflated, pride-filled ego. Such are the two kingdoms divided.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sojourner on October 06, 2003, 11:56:24 AM
Personally, I have given both my children a wack on the behind when it is warranted and it doesn't matter the time or place. They have come to know that they are never safe from punishment, and I think that this is the way it should be. So now I don't have to spank them because they know they'll get it and they behave.

When my child was small, we were in a restaurant a few years back, and when my child began to misbehave with no intent on listening to me, I took him to the car for an old-fashioned spanking. I think christian parents should have very little tolerance for misbehaving children in public places. When I got home, he spent the rest of the day cleaning the yard and sitting at the table, and helping in the kitchen. I let it be known to him that I was only doing this for his benefit and that I loved him, and he has now got the picture.

Now that they are older, spanking is not necessary. They now show respect for their parents as well as all elders, which spanking, along with biblical instruction, instilled in them. You should understand, when a child is this age, an hour in a corner seems like an eternity. It is a long, long time before he misbehaves again.

Now I know in today's politically correct world liberal christians will call that cruel and unusual punishment, but I follow God not society. My children are so well-behaved now, and so understanding of how I love them, that I am constantly getting compliments about them from others in public. That of course is not my motive, but a testimony to God's way being the best way to raise children.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Colleen on October 20, 2003, 03:31:25 AM
Part of the problem is so many single mothers. Single mothers are just not able to threaten their older boys with physical punishment. And it just won't work anyway.

Christian parents have got to stay together in order to maintain a family atmosphere and consistent set of boundaries for their children. There needs to be a father and mother family relationship. When one parent is suddenly gone because of divorce or separation, and it's the father who is usually the one who administers the spankings, children tend to revert to a "NO RULES MAN" attitude. IMO. There is a 50 percent divorce rate, and that's a lot of single parent households.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: He_Leadeth_Me on September 23, 2004, 05:39:27 PM
Quote from: john
And does anyone notice that these are mostly "single mothers" who allow their children to walk all over them and humiliate them in public?

Underlying the anti-spanking movement, I think, is a rebellion against acknowledging and discerning right from wrong. If anyone enforces a moral code then they must likewise be subjected to the same code. If there are no moral absolutes then spanking is superfluous and illogical.
Quote

I’m sorry that I have to confront you. But when you are public, you don’t know a single mother from a married mother.

Second, enforcing a moral code does not have to involve spanking. The code of morality is generally taught to children as they gain an understanding of their native language. You explain what is proper and what isn’t and tell them what the rules and consequences are.

Then there is the problem of a parent who chooses to spank, who assumes that only non-Christians don’t spank. This isn’t true. There are Christians who don’t spank. Their views about the Trinity, salvation, and other doctrines might be the same as yours.

There is also the problem of assuming that kids who misbehave in public aren’t spanked. This isn’t true. It’s a possibility, but it can never be a given. Sometimes children get cranky because they missed their nap. Sometimes they sass and misbehave because the parents are inconsistent with their discipline. Sometimes negative behavior is the only way they can ever get their dis-interested parent’s attention.

If you spank your child in anger–many parents do—you are not teaching him to respect you. God expects you to teach him respect for authority.

If you spank your child only when you think you must, and when he is old enough to have a time out, you use that as an enforcement, he may not even remember spankings, but he will still know who is in charge.

If you spank in anger, and spank harder if he tells you, “It didn’t hurt,” or “I hate you,” you aren’t teaching him respect, you are teaching him that the stronger person wins. He’ll be waiting for the day that he is the stronger person.

When my daughter was young, she sassed my MIL. I made her sit on a chair for about fifteen minutes and then told her she could get down when she apologized. Her grandmother was a “grab the yardstick and beat ‘em” disciplinarian, yet she was impressed that I didn’t tolerate that kind of behavior from a five- or six-year-old.

Parenting Styles:
Parents who are responsive but not at all demanding
are permissive.

Parents who are equally responsive and demanding
are authoritative.

Parents who are demanding but not very responsive
are autocratic.

Parents who are neither demanding nor responsive
are unengaged.

I, personally, think the authoritative style is best. You have to have a healthy balance. This style of discipline may or may not include spanking.


When I approach a child, he inspires in me two sentiments: Tenderness for what he is, and respect for what he may become.--- Louis Pasteur

Children are wet cement. — Anne Ortlund
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Diane Moody on September 24, 2004, 03:10:09 AM
Quote
You explain what is proper and what isn’t and tell them what the rules and consequences are.

Great. That always works :(
Sounds like you are another of the post-modernist adversaries of the bible preaching the gospel of "time out".

It doesn't really matter how many children you've got or raised or think you know about. It sounds to me like you've been watching too much television or listening to to many psychologists, instead of watching the horrible situation that views like yours have placed children into, and listening to the word of God. Worldly philosophies do not move biblical christians, obedience to God's instruction does. You can write your own bible if you like, but don't try and get biblical christians to swallow this world's philosophies.

 Prv. 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

 Prv. 19:18  Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

 Prv. 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Your view is fine if you take the bible as nothing but scrap paper to trample under foot, as has become the comon practice today. But for bible believers, your philosophy is carnal, unbiblical, and a bold faced contradiction to what God has stated about children, their punishment, and it's effects on them. So who should we believe? You, your psychologists, or God?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: He_Leadeth_Me on September 24, 2004, 03:38:07 AM
I'm sorry I've offended you, Diane.  :o  I've met people who have pet verses, yet wouldn't think of stoning their rebellious children.

God wants us to discipline our children and set an example for them. One of the examples we need to set is to speak the truth in love, another is to have patience, another to edify other Christians, and yet another is to choose our words carefully.

Eph. 4:15, 2 Tim. 2:24, 1 Cor. 14:12, James 3:6

God isn't finished with us yet. It's good to encourage one another on our life's journey. I'm glad you have concerns about child-rearing and the word of God.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: He_Leadeth_Me on September 24, 2004, 03:47:57 AM
I'm sorry. I forgot to respond to this:

Your view is fine if you take the bible as nothing but scrap paper to trample under foot, as has become the comon practice today. But for bible believers, your philosophy is carnal, unbiblical, and a bold faced contradiction to what God has stated about children, their punishment, and it's effects on them. So who should we believe? You, your psychologists, or God?

We should listen to the Holy Spirit. And probably be less critical of God's elect.  :)

Deuteronomy 21
18   If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19   Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20   And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21   And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Did I condemn spanking? Perhaps you misread my post.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Wonder on November 14, 2004, 11:04:56 AM
I think beating them with rod is great, if that rod is the same rod as in the Bible, you know, the one that claims, thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
I don't see that a physical beating is a comfort, at least not to the child.
To correct a wrong is not adding another, but showing a better way of doing whatever they do wrong.
To beat a child with a rod of the wrong kind, can kill.
In His Love.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Peng Bao on November 14, 2004, 11:22:15 AM
I think beating them with rod is great, if that rod is the same rod as in the Bible, you know, the one that claims, thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
I don't see that a physical beating is a comfort, at least not to the child.

Well that's because you are brainwashed if you think that God wasn't instructing his saints to physically hit the children.

Quote
To correct a wrong is not adding another, but showing a better way of doing whatever they do wrong.
To beat a child with a rod of the wrong kind, can kill.
In His Love.

God didn't say abuse and beat the child to death, as is so often the confusion of anti-spanking crowd. On the contrary.

 Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

The spiritual meaning of the rod does not negate the literal meaning of how we are to correct our children, and the good that it will bring in correction. So who cares about the social philosophies of man, God says spanking, hitting, whatever you want to call it, is good for correction of children. Not always, but it is an option that unfortunately isn't used in our day, and the undisciplined children cursing out their parents without fear, is a testimony to that error.

 Pr 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

 Corporal punishment is not abuse.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Wonder on November 14, 2004, 12:08:06 PM
Whatever you do unto them, you do unto Him.
I am thankful that you aren't bringing up my children. They are proof that they can be brought up without physical harm.
To each their own. Just in my opinion, you don't have to hit them to teach them.
In His Love.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Beechwood on November 14, 2004, 01:13:24 PM
Whatever you do unto them, you do unto Him.
I am thankful that you aren't bringing up my children. They are proof that they can be brought up without physical harm.


You must be one of those people who privately interpret scripture to mean anything they want. Because clearly, God says that disciplining children this way is not only permissible, but should be used for correction when necessary. You in effect are saying, you don't care what God says, you don't feel it's right so that's that. Not the right response to be Christian. I think God knows more about children than you and the media does.


Quote
To each their own. Just in my opinion, you don't have to hit them to teach them.
In His Love.

To each unsaved person his own. But to Christians, God's own. Not our will but his will. Not what seems right in our own eyes, but what is right in God's eyes. Not what modern culture teaches, but what God's word teaches. It's the difference between biblical christians and pseudo christians.

PS, No one said you have to hit them to teach them. Don't change the subject.


Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Peng Bao on November 14, 2004, 02:00:29 PM
You must be one of those people who privately interpret scripture to mean anything they want. Because clearly, God says that disciplining children this way is not only permissible, but should be used for correction when necessary. You in effect are saying, you don't care what God says, you don't feel it's right so that's that. Not the right response to be Christian. I think God knows more about children than you and the media does.

 Proverbs 29:15 "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

Beechwood. That is the take I got on it also. So if man is left to his own wisdom, then it really doesn't matter what god says, then it's a waste of time to show scripture to someone who isn't going to accept it's authority. But to the rest of us, it is sin to ignore God in and fall in step with the flavor of the month social agenda.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Wonder on November 14, 2004, 05:29:19 PM
Well then, I guess that if that is what you believe then you should be sure and follow that Scripture to the tee as not to disobey God. Find you a rod, be it wood or metal, and beat the child, be sure and fulfill it perfectly.
May God bless the ignorant.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Scot on November 14, 2004, 08:03:24 PM
Man says:
No one is going to tell me how to raise my kids.

God says:
whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid (Prov. 12:1) RSV

Man says:
I wouldn't spank my child because I love him too much. Besides, that would be cruel.

God says:
He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early (Prov. 13:24) Amplified

Man says:
I would never spank my child because it may hurt him.

God says:
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. (Prov. 20:30) KJV

Man says:
I resent having to correct my child.

God says:
It is joy to the just to do judgement. (Prov. 21:25a) KJV

Man says:
Spanking a child is not that important. There are many more effective and kinder ways to discipline a child.

God says:
Withhold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. You shall whip him with rod, and deliver his life from Sheol" (Prov. 23:13,14) Amplified

Man says:
I am afraid if I spank my child he will not like me.

God says:
Discipline your son, and he will give you peace; he will bring delight to your soul. (Prov. 29:17) NIV
 :)
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Scot on November 14, 2004, 08:18:11 PM
A section of an article called "The Rod And Reproof" by Stephen Key:

Contrary to the well-known teachings of Dr. Benjamin Spock, and the teachings of many who have rejected the Word of God, the rod is a necessary instrument in the discipline of our children. So important is that rod that God tells us in Proverbs 13:24, "He that spareth his rod hateth his son."

The rod of discipline is not easy to use.

The world has so corrupted the concept "love," that our deceitful hearts would readily say that it is love to let a child do his own thing, so to speak.

And I would have you mothers notice that the mother is mentioned specifically in this text. Because the father's calling is to provide for the family, the calling of the early discipline of your children falls primarily upon you mothers who are at home. That is one reason you are mentioned specifically. But I would submit that there is another reason you are mentioned in connection with this calling to use the rod and reproof. If the father's stronger character generally induces him to "provoke his children to wrath," which Paul warns us fathers against in Colossians 3:21, does not the mother's softer and generally more tender nature lean toward the opposite evil? Would you mothers attempt to correct your children with a few harsh words, or with a mild, "If you quit that right now, I'll give you a piece of candy?"

The Scriptures, however, teach something quite different. Woe be unto you parents who refuse to heed the Word of God in the discipline of your children! For God tells us to love, not hate. "He that spareth the rod hateth his son." Love necessitates correction with the rod and reproof! If we love our children, God says that we must administer discipline and correction.

The rod is a generic instrument which might take several different forms. It was an instrument that was used as the shaft of a spear. It sometimes denoted a scepter, the mark of authority used by one who ruled. But the rod was also an instrument used to administer corrective and physical discipline. For us it might be a stick or a switch or a firm ruler. But whatever that instrument may be, it is a means to return the wayward child to the right course.

We must also note in this connection, that rightly to use the rod on our children requires love. All too often, where physical discipline is exercised, it is not done out of love either for God or the child. We who must administer such discipline to our covenant children, must do so under God's authority and with His manner and attitude. That attitude is revealed in Hebrews 12:6-8: "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and no sons." God does not abuse us in His chastening. He loves us.

There is a reason also in this connection that God prescribes the use of the rod. It takes just a little time and effort to get the stick out. And for us to reflect God's attitude of love through our reactionary, impatient, sinful flesh, it is necessary that we slow down and think about what we are doing. Slapping your children around the head and beating on them with your fists, whipping them or beating them with any object close at hand, or anything of the like, is nothing more than abuse of the children whom God has entrusted to your care. And if that has been your ungodly method of punishing your covenant children, you must repent before God and before your children this day!

God instructs us to use the rod in love.

The chastisement of the rod, used in love, is a chastisement quickly and mercifully inflicted. Although our children may question it, there is no punishment more mercifully inflicted than the rod. It is God's method, which is quickly over, with no need to look with disdain upon a corrected child for hours and even days. The rod is not a punishment that keeps the child in mom's and dad's "doghouse." Furthermore, God's call for the use of the rod takes into account his or her physical welfare. God created a particular part of the body capable of receiving the impact of the rod without injury. It is evident that God did not create every part of the body to receive the blow of the rod. When we parents administer the discipline of the rod in love, then we do not do so to injure. That means that we are not to strike our children in the back, where we may cause injury to the spine or the kidneys, nor in the stomach, nor on the head or hands; but on the flesh of the backside where, if the rod is used properly, it may be keenly felt.

And if you ask, what about the older children, the text speaks to that also. We may agree that the rod is good for young children. But how should we discipline our teenagers? Well, you may be surprised to hear that teens are not to be excluded from the use of the rod when necessary. It is striking in the text, that Solomon implicitly calls for the use of the rod and reproof until the child is an adult. The term "child" refers - as is clear in the Hebrew term used - to a child who has reached the age of independence, who is ready to move out of the house and marry.

You will find, when you administer discipline to your child as God commands and as you nurture that child to receive more and more responsibility and to become more and more dependent upon God, that the rod will not often be necessary with your teenager. As a covenant child matures in the way of loving discipline, under the diligent use of rod and reproof as a child, he learns to experience joy and peace in the home. He grows in the knowledge and understanding of the Word of God, of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. He realizes that obedience to God is the way of happiness. And the rod is less frequently necessary as a means to instruct. But it is still a means.

But along with the rod must be reproof.

"The rod and reproof." When the rod is used, God has ordained discipline to be twofold. Proper Christian discipline is not dictatorship, rule by might with the rod alone. To separate these two is to ask for the chastisement of God to fall upon your head. Eli gave the reproof, but spared the rod; and he had to suffer the torment of hearing that his sons were slain by the wrath of God, and the ark of the Lord was taken by the Philistines. Others, contrary to the Word of God, use the rod alone. Now, there are many times when a matter of discipline can be handled by reproof alone. The indication of Proverbs 17:10 is, if reproof works the sorrow of repentance, then let the rod be spared. If not, use the rod and let not thy soul spare for the child's crying. But never use the rod without reproof.

Reproof is verbal instruction in godliness.

The child must not only be steered away from the path that leads to hell, but he must be shown the error of his way before God and he must be instructed in righteousness. Our children must be taught to evaluate their own specific actions in the light of the Scriptures. They must be taught to bow before the authority of God. They must be taught why the thing that they did was wrong in the eyes of God. Biblical discipline requires words. How much do you think you would get out of my preaching, if all I did was stand in the pulpit from week to week waving my arms and making contortions with my face, but never saying a word? The message of the gospel cannot be communicated by mere gestures or by pounding the pulpit. Nor can the instruction in Christian discipline be communicated if all that our discipline amounts to is a painful pantomime with a stick. The wrath of God was exercised toward us, that we might hear those precious words, "I love you in Christ Jesus." And even now, when we experience the chastisement of God, it is to lead us in the way toward heaven.

When we understand that precious truth, then we ought to express our love to our children especially when we are called to use the rod. We must reprove them, expressing our love for them. We must assure them that the rod is not administered out of hatred, but out of a heavy heart that loves that child in Christ. What a terrible thing it is when confessing Christian parents beat their children, but fail to reprove them and to point them to the love of Christ. How utterly wicked it is for a parent to spank a child only to leave him like a dog to lick his sores. It is no wonder when such children run to their rooms, slam their doors, and mutter under their breaths, "I hate you." Such an attitude expressed by a parent who uses the rod, but never reproves in love, has no semblance whatsoever to the attitude God expresses in chastening His spiritual children. God demands the rod and reproof.

And we ought not forget that belonging to reproof is prayer, which brings parent and child close to God. The necessity of prayer in the discipline and instruction of our children cannot be overemphasized. For one thing, we parents must repeatedly approach God seeking forgiveness for our failure to exercise discipline as He has ordained. We need to do that today and every day. We need to pray for grace to obey His Word and to bow humbly before His wise instruction. We need to pray for much wisdom in dealing with our covenant children. For we know that if God were to reward us according to our iniquities, every one of our children would walk the way to hell. And we need to pray for our children. We ought to do that not just generally, but specifically, naming each one by name and praying for the specific needs of each child and bringing before God the specific problems we face with each child. More than once, I have heard the testimony of a child of God, speaking of his Christian father whose discipline fell far short of the biblical standard. But one thing that father did, in the presence of his children, was to fall on his knees to beseech God's forgiveness for himself and God's mercy towards his children. Such prayer leaves on the mind and soul of a child an impression that will never leave him. In prayer also, we are to reflect the love of Christ toward us. He prays without ceasing, serving as our faithful and constant Intercessor by His Holy Spirit.

In all things the Lord God calls us to reflect Him, also in the administering of Christian discipline to covenant children. And He says to us in Proverbs 3:11, 12: "My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD (despise not His use of the rod on you); neither be weary of his correction (of his reproof): For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth (He reproves); even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/rod_and_reproof.shtml

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Kenneth White on November 15, 2004, 04:13:00 AM
Wonder, love is not a matter of doing what we think is best, but of doing what God says. If you look at scripture you will find that God defines love as obedience to his commandments.

 Prov. 19:18
  "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."

When you put your own ideas of what is correct over and above what God says we should do, then we are no longer serving God. When we spank a child in chastizement, and he cries, he's not crying because we've injured him (we have not) he's crying because his pride is hurt. And often, that is what needs to be broken. Man's pride and stubborness. Trust God, he knows what is best.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Wonder on November 15, 2004, 07:03:47 AM
Jesus spoke of how he done what he saw his Father do. I was quoted this, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and no sons."
I do see myself and my children as children of God. I have also never seen my Father beat his children physically with a rod. Not while He was here nor now.
The word disipline comes from the word disiple. One can disipline his children without physical harm. One can take the times when a child miss behaves and use it as a time to teach a proper way. It may take more of our time. But in turn He spends time correcting us and its not always fun, but he never beats physically with a rod.
More time is needed from you to properly apply the rod, but it is better for the child than a physical beating.
When ever I read a Scripture, before I attempt to do as He asks, I always ask myself if it would hurt anyone. Because if it does, I will not do it. Just because, I never saw Him hurt anyone. Everything is done out of love, and He takes the time needed to teach us right. It is so much easier to spank a child and send them to their room, than it is to work and teach the child in the way they should go.
This is one subjuct my mind will not be changed on. Simply because I try to do as I see Him do to me, I do to them.
The only one I ever see hit, or beat anyone is man. That is not one I choose to follow.
You want to know those Scriptures that should not be taken literly are those that might hurt someone, because odds are we are not reading it the way it should be taken and we need more light in order to understand. His ways are not our ways. You cannot make anyone do anything they don't want to do. I will not instill fear of beating in the children in order to get them to keep His commandments. I want them to keep them because it is the right thing to do, because they love Him and CHOOSE to keep them. Only then do I know they will always keep them, even when I am not standing over them with a "rod". Many times they have dropped to their knees and cried, because of the wrong they did, not because of the rod, or being hit physically, but because they see how wrong they were in what they did.
I don't see God trying to perfect the flesh, only the spirit, it is the spirit in a child you want to apply the rod to. If you will correct the spirit, the flesh will come under its rule and will do right.
In His Love
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Raybob on November 15, 2004, 06:09:28 PM
I see a lot of bible verses on this thread but Diane M. had the most important one so far.:

 Prv. 13:24 ¶ He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

There is a BIG difference between spanking a child and lashing out in anger.  Unfortunately, my wife is one that will scream and yell, then reach out and slap saying no.  This is wrong and I tell her so.  The kids never listen and when they want attention, they get whopped.  On the other hand, I've corrected my boy (3) more than once.  Each time, I told him why, bent him over my knee and gave him a red butt.  He now listens and respects me.  If he is being obnoxois about something and I need to correct him, I now just say, "Do you want a red butt?"  He then says, "No" and stops whatever it was that he was doing.  In his three years, it's only taken a maybe 3 hits for him to get the message.  My girl just turned one and I am dreading the day I need to spank her but I know the time will come and I pray it only takes one time of the red butt.  :)

Raybob
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carmel on November 15, 2004, 09:26:55 PM

 
Quote
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and no sons."

 Did Jesus ever receive a spanking?

 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Bunyan on November 16, 2004, 03:27:54 AM

 
Quote
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and no sons."

 Did Jesus ever receive a spanking?

That is without a doubt one of the most absurd questions that I have ever read posted here. And I've read a lot of absurd questions.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Bunyan on November 16, 2004, 03:35:26 AM

I see a lot of bible verses on this thread but Diane M. had the most important one so far.:

 Prv. 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

There is a BIG difference between spanking a child and lashing out in anger. 
Raybob

 Diane often puts forth some of the most thoughtful replies. But in reading others, I think that we have to be careful not to start defining terms by our present day culture, rather than by the bible. And I think that is what a lot of the people here are doing. They've been led to believe that hitting a child is wrong and is an act of hatred and violence, but that is not the truth. It's a lie that the devil keeps going. Sure, any law can be abused, but that's not the point. the point is, are we our own authority to decide for ourselves as some here seem to think, or is God the authority. It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carmel on November 16, 2004, 04:19:20 AM
  
Quote
That is without a doubt one of the most absurd questions that I have ever read posted here. And I've read a lot of absurd questions.

 Sorry that the question is beyond your reasoning ability and scriptural knowledge  ;Dbut there are  scriptural reasons for asking the question. You may apologise shortly.

 You probably believe that spanking is only appropriate for acts of rebellion.

 What you class as sin may not be sin at all.

 Did Jesus ever do something the wrong way and did His Father correct Him and with what, and was it necessary for His mother to smack Him.

 Think about that.

 





 




Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Blade on November 16, 2004, 04:31:03 AM

 Did Jesus ever do something the wrong way and did His Father correct Him and with what, and was it necessary for His mother to smack Him.

 Think about that.

Jesus is God. Thus I have to agree with Bunyan. It's an absurd question not worthy of an answer.

Where are all these people just coming out of the woodwork all of a sudden?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carol on November 16, 2004, 09:00:58 AM

Did Jesus ever do something the wrong way and did His Father correct Him and with what, and was it necessary for His mother to smack Him.

The Lord Jesus NEVER sinned.  He was perfect all his days upon the earth.  If he had sinned, we would be in BIG trouble.  We wouldn't have a Savior, a substitute. 

Luke 6:40  The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 

We are perfect only if we are 'in him,' because he is perfect.  God would not accept anything short of perfection.

Blessings,
Carol
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carmel on November 16, 2004, 07:24:59 PM
(Heb 5:7-9)  who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, {8} though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. {9} And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
   

 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Robert Powell on November 17, 2004, 04:17:06 AM
Jesus is God. Thus I have to agree with Bunyan. It's an absurd question not worthy of an answer.

Where are all these people just coming out of the woodwork all of a sudden?

The only question that we need to answer is are we going to listen to the  Oprah Winfreys' of the Church, or are we going to be obedient to God's Word. And what if they don't believe these scriptures? Does that make the scriptures untrue?

 Romans 3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I don't have to show the tons of scriptures where God instructs us to spank and not pity and not spare, you've all done a great job in witnessing to his word. The only question that remians is, how many of us will receive God's truth vs. those who have no respect for it at all. Let God be true and every man, and woman, a liar.

All of the God fearing theologians of history were spanked, look at the crop of theologians and pastors we have today and compare. Which ones were faithful and trained in the way they should go. So let the social architecs talk all the rebellion they want. The scriptures speak for themselves.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Shirley on November 17, 2004, 07:23:36 AM
I don't have to show the tons of scriptures where God instructs us to spank and not pity and not spare, you've all done a great job in witnessing to his word. The only question that remians is, how many of us will receive God's truth vs. those who have no respect for it at all. Let God be true and every man, and woman, a liar.


Amen, Amen, and Amen  Bob,

The kids of today are undisciplined and are really exhibiting animal behavior. They know they can get away with it because parents today have let them know they can get away with it. Instead of the parent being dominant, often they've allowed the kids to be dominant. Discipline has to start earlier in a child's life. Just as God's word says. Instead of a "time out" a slap on the behind is what kids need to let them know who is in charge. I'm so tired or reading posts like I have here, with people who don't know anything about kids acting as if they are experts on child behaviour. While just completely ignoring the bible. Kids are not "little adults," they are children who need discipline and strict correction.

Personally, I would spank after the first couple warning. I spanked my kids, and they are the best behaved children on the block. They know I do it out of love and they have respect for their parents. Unlike my neighbor's children who are not spanked and who talk to their parents as if they were children. And why not, all the repercussions they will get is sent to their rooms. And they don't even have to go, because they can just call the police if the parent hits them or makes them by force.

I am firmly convinced that the only reason people do not get violent in most cases, is that they fear repercussions of some sort. Unless they are saved, they have no incentive to be good. Because despite what society says, the heart of man is desperately wicked. These social workers are under the delusion that children are born good and spanking makes them bad. Christians know better than that. And if there are no repercussions, or the repercussions are so mild as to be a joke to kids, then the violent behaviour of most children will continue, and even get worse.

My kids are very well behaved in public, because they knew that their mother believed in corporal punishment, and they respect that. As I did my parents, and my parents their parents. These new social christians are all screwed up because they don't appreciate God's word.

 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: TashaJordan on March 17, 2005, 04:09:52 AM
Being raised in a family that believed in spanking I would have to say that I do not believe in it. I may have done something wrong to warrent a punushment yes but I can tell you thet hitting me did not correct it, it only made me scared of my parents.....why do kids listen better after they have been spanked? It is out of fear not out of knowing the did something wrong. I felt unloved and even hated after being spanked. If you want to take Gods word literally then God doesn't even say to spank he says to beat them with a stick and how many of you think beating kids with a stick will teach them anything but fear of the people that are supposed to love them and guide them. Spare the rod spoil the shild I've heard so many times I can't count but a rod in those days was a staff used by shepherds to guide their sheep away from danger not to beat them with. Now you can say children are born bad all you want but Jesus tells us to be like little children in our faith and beconed the children to him all the time. He did not say be not like little children for they are wicked creatures....and nor did he tell them how sinful they were when he called them to sit on his knee. Children learn alot better when treated with respect and it kindly explained to them why what they did was wrong, they understand alot more than they are given credit for and just like you and me.....would you listen to your boss more if he screamed at you and then took out a stick to hit you with? Or if he kindly explained why you need to do something and treated you like a human being. I have 4 children and none of them get spanked, nor do they run around acting out like children that get hit, and nor do they cring when I raise my hand and in that I take much pride. Have you ever seen a child that gets hit react when his parent or anyone else raises their hand even in play? The first thing they do is put their hand up like they are about to get hit, and thats definatley not how I would want my children to react to me. Jesus never once hit a child or anyone else. I do not get my way of thinking from psycology books I get it from living it and knowing now as a mother how it made me feel as a child to be hit and never wanting my children to feel that way.

Tasha

Tasha
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dave Taylor on March 17, 2005, 08:56:14 AM
So you are a better teacher than the Bible Tasha? 

You seem to be saying so in your rationalization away from what the Bible teaches.

Proverbs 13:24
"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 22:15
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:12
"Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge. Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

Discipline and training via spanking is not abuse nor disrespectfulness.  It is Godly instruction meted out in love and restraint by the wise parent.

Spanking is serious Tasha; according to the Bible; when done properly; it can deliver a child's soul from hell.

Or the alternative;

ask him nicely, watch him disobey;
give him candy, watch him disobey;
give him a 3 count, watch him disobey;
put him in time-out, watch him disobey;
let him grow up rebelious; and be partly responsible for his soul going to hell.

Which is worse; a correcting swat on the rear-end from time to time in accordance with the Bible's teaching in loving instruction; or eternal damnation of his soul in hell because of lack of responsibility and relying on ones sinful emotional rationalizations and rejecting the Bible's instruction?

Of course, only if you believe what Proverbs teaches is truth and wise instruction.  If not, then the Bible is nothing more than an alternative to Grims or Aesop's Fairy Tales.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Kenneth White on March 17, 2005, 10:10:33 AM
Being raised in a family that believed in spanking I would have to say that I do not believe in it. I may have done something wrong to warrent a punushment yes but I can tell you thet hitting me did not correct it, it only made me scared of my parents.


Tasha,

 You seem to be hell bent on taking up the liberal post modern church philosophies of the world as your banner. But what you see as right, is an offense to what God sees as right. Fathers have been spanking kids for thousands of years, and few hated their parents the way we see this hatred of parents who don't spank today. The teens today show absolutely no respect for their parents today, they'll tell you point blank they hate their parents, and they haven't been hit once. So I'll take the kids 60 years ago who were spanked and still loved their parents, over the kids today any day of the week. Your way may be right in your own eyes, but listening to the bible is what's right with God.

 Proverb 12:15 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise."

Your personal experiences have nothing to do with the truth that we follow. Every one of us can stand here and give a personal testimony of our personal experiences. I was given beatings, which I deserved, and I can "tell you" it was the best thing that ever happened to me. So we've both got personal experiences. You say you felt unloved, well I felt loved. And I now realize that the unloved kids were the ones who their parents never disciplined. But what good is just swapping stories if we're calling God a liar? Because love is not what you claim it is, but what God says it is.

 Proverb 3:12 "For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."
 Proverb 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

God says it is a good thing. God says "this" is the love of a father. Should I  go by your personal reaction against your parents? That is your psychological problem, not an error in God's instruction. Christian behavior isn't defined by personal experiences related by me or you, Christians are those who follow the bible and are faithful to what it teaches. That's what ultimately determines that we are christians.

 Proverbs 10:8  "The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall."

All your posts thus far seem to be of the nature of declaring yourself a "new age" christian who thinks they are wiser than God. You're saying, sure God says physical discipline is necessary, but you feel, based upon your experiences and society today, you know better. Sure God says do all to the glory of God, but being just like the world in disfiguring God's Holy Temple with piercings and tatoos is a good witness to Christ? I don't even think you believe that yourself. Because like I said, it's obvious that these actions are the way of the world, and thus at enmity with God.

 Jamess 4:4 "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Fear of our heavenly father is a good thing. Fear of our earthly father is also a good thing. Reverence is what is missing in the families of today. Spanking, when done in love and explained, is as the chastizement of the Lord.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Kenneth White on March 17, 2005, 10:23:59 AM
The only question that we need to answer is are we going to listen to the  Oprah Winfreys' of the Church, or are we going to be obedient to God's Word. And what if they don't believe these scriptures? Does that make the scriptures untrue?

 Romans 3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


 A hearty Amen to that Bob. We know this attitute is growing in the Church, the only question is, are we going to be seduced by it, or are we going to carry the ensign of Christ unto the end? Let God be true, and mankind a liar. The scriptures justify us, not the post modern Church philosophies of rearing children. All we have to do is look at the children today who came up under this banner, and look at what the liberal churches have done, and we can see the terrible things they have done to the family, to children, and to the marriage institution. Need we further witness?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: TashaJordan on March 18, 2005, 03:45:34 AM
I am not saying that we should not correct out chidlren or that we should not punish them, there are many many ways that one can correct a child. God says to punish chidlren when they gave done something wrong, and I do. I just don't hit them. And like I said before I do not get this philosophy from books or Churches. I go by what is in my heart and how I felt as a child getting spanked. I was not saying that spanking is wrong I was adding in my 2 cents worth of thoughts and feeling on it and that I personally do not do it. To say that spanking is the only thing that will save a soul from hell is pretty strange to be honest. If you raise your children with God's love they will grow in Gods love wether you spank them or not.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: TashaJordan on March 18, 2005, 04:41:34 AM
I also never once judged anyone on this board for spanking, as you seem to feel I did Kenneth. My whole point in both is that we have no right to judge anyone for anything they do or look like or have. And if we do judge we have absolutely NO RIGHT to say that it came from God, it did not come from God it came from you. You seem to be a very judgemental person. As for kids 60 years ago....lets see that was the 1940's when almost every single person smoked,  and drove big cars, including kids it was not that they did nothing wrong it was that the wrong things they did were acceptable at the time. Sorry but to say that any child not spanked will be some heathen who hates his parents is absurd. The only family I have ever met where the children were complete and utter Christians living the way God wanted them too including at the time of teenage hood was a family with 5 children, non of which got spanked. Are you saying that they are unchristian children then? The point of a board is to discuss personal opinions and sometimes lend advice not attack people with judgements and mean remarks about their pyscological state of mind nor wether or not they are sending their children to hell. People can quote to me about God saying to honor our bodies ect and my answer to that would be, who out of any of us does not eat chocolate, potato chips, margarine, pop, coffee..... because all of these are "harming the temple of God" and to call one person a sinner for such actions would be calling all people including yourself the same. Judge not lest ye be judged. I posted my piece on spanking as my personal parenting not as an opening to have someone insult me, but more in hopes of loving, nice christians to respond. And maybe as a new member get to know some of you. Never once in either of my topics have I called people sinners or told them they are going to hell and I expect the same in return. I spent 15 years witnessing to streetkids and prostitutes and its the bible bashing repent now or be sent to hell that scares them away, and its the judgemental Christians that make the world turn a deaf ear to anything being said by any sort of Christian. (yes again one of my own personal experiences but its an experience that if more Christians had, or knew how these people think of us and why exactly, and therefor we did not do, would help us witness to people and actually get them to hear what we are saying) God will judge us with the same fiercness that we have judged others in our lives.

Tasha
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Carol on March 18, 2005, 09:12:55 AM
I spent 15 years witnessing to streetkids and prostitutes and its the bible bashing repent now or be sent to hell that scares them away, and its the judgemental Christians that make the world turn a deaf ear to anything being said by any sort of Christian. (yes again one of my own personal experiences but its an experience that if more Christians had, or knew how these people think of us and why exactly, and therefor we did not do, would help us witness to people and actually get them to hear what we are saying) God will judge us with the same fiercness that we have judged others in our lives.

Tasha,  God WILL save his people, every last one of them.  He doesn't need you or me, or anybody to dress a certain way, or talk a certain way, or ANYTHING to reach them.  The only reason anyone comes to believe in Christ is because HE opens their eyes to see him, not because --YOU weren't judgmental, or YOU got tatoos like them so that they would listen and relate to you, or whatever.  You give yourself way too much power.  NO ONE would come to Christ apart from his quickening power, not you, not me, no one!  It is ony by his grace and his power that anyone comes to him.  Christ's death on the cross determines who will come to him, not something you or I do.  Every single person he died for WILL come to him.

It's not 'judgmental Christians' that make the world turn a deaf ear to Christ.  It is our own sinful depraved nature.  Man in his natural state has no use for God.  Only when God opens our eyes will we see our great need of a Saviour and cry out for mercy.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Blessings in Christ,
Carol
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on March 19, 2005, 08:02:10 AM
>>>
I also never once judged anyone on this board for spanking, as you seem to feel I did Kenneth. My whole point in both is that we have no right to judge anyone for anything they do or look like or have.
<<<

But you are wrong, he  (and everyone else here) has every right to present scripture that show what God's will is in the rearing of our children. You claim we have no right to judge, but when God told us to physically discipline our children if we love them, he gave us judgment! And from what I have read, you simply do not like God's judgments and you obviously believe that He is wrong in his understanding of rearing our children. Unfortunately for you, you have strayed into a forum where Christians take the word of God very seriously.

Proverbs 29:15

Yes, we're aware that you, and many more like you, just don't get it, but we do. We're not talking about personal opinion, private interpretations and humanistic sociology, we're talking about something the church today seems to have long forgotten. It's called faithfulness and obedience.


Quote
>>>
As for kids 60 years ago....lets see that was the 1940's when almost every single person smoked, and drove big cars, including kids it was not that they did nothing wrong it was that the wrong things they did were acceptable at the time.
<<<

I fail to see what smoking and driving big cars has to do with God declaing that Christians should physically discipline their children at times? And who said anything about Kids not doing anything wrong 60 years ago? As is "typical," you have no answers to scripture, so you present only "straw men" in retort. Why are you talking about something that is wrong, the topic was spanking or physical discipline in correction. Spanking that God says is not only right, but warns that we should not spare or withhold it? You are basically telling us that God doesn't know what He is talking about, or that man today knows better. One or the other. And I'm afraid that is what Christian people here are not buying.

Psalms 119:128

Christians have faith and "believe" that all God's precepts and laws are correct, not old fashioned or misguided.


Quote
>>>
Sorry but to say that any child not spanked will be some heathen who hates his parents is absurd.
<<<

Gee, who said that? ...Oh, it was you!

Proverbs 23:13

Your argument is really not with these Christians, or our doctrine, but with God. Because despite all your hand wringing about children, it is God who commands Christian parents not to withhold correction, and that it is the child that will benefit. What you are really doing is calling God's instruction absurd! You superimpose your anger at Him, upon us, because you don't want to actually call "His Methods" archaic and ineffective. Nevertheless, God is not mocked.


Quote
>>>
The point of a board is to discuss personal opinions and sometimes lend advice not attack people with judgements and mean remarks about their psychological state of mind nor wether or not they are sending their children to hell.
<<<

The point of what board? Are you the board Police? If you want to be stroked, placated and told how progressive and loving your new age Christian philosophy is, there are many, many boards where you can go to receive that stroking you crave (Isaiah 30:9-10). But -- this isn't one of them. We will not get out of the way to turn aside the Church from the path, and cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us. We will not go the way of the world. We will not forsake God's word for man's philosophy. we believe His word is supreme and authoritative.

2nd Timothy 3:16

So, the point of this message board is to bear witness to scripture, for the purpose of encouraging sound doctrine, for exhorting, for correction and instruction. It is really not to give wild unbiblical and invalidated personal opinions, but to discuss opinions in light of scripture, confer over God, doctrine, life, theology, and apologetics in the light of that same scripture. And as far as your charge of Christians attacking people with judgments of sending their children to hell, I suggest that you open your eyes. Only then will you come to realize that it is the "unadulterated" words of God, not of men, that has made these judgments. the Bible is divinely inspired, every word. We didn't write it.

Proverbs 23:13-14

What shall we say then? How dare God judge? How dare Christians bear witness to His judgments? Why don't we just cause Christ to cease from before us? ...I think not.


Quote
I posted my piece on spanking as my personal parenting not as an opening to have someone insult me, but more in hopes of loving, nice Christians to respond.

And my guess is that loving Christians did respond. Unfortunately, society's idea of loving Christians is not God's idea of loving Christians. You seem to look upon God's instruction and laws as a burden today, grievous, heavy or weighty, that we shouldn't have to bear. Again, you are wrong. Being faithful, being obedient, is not grievous to the true Christian, it "IS" the living testimony of love.

1st John 5:1-3

Wala! The evidence of Christian love for our brethren (according to God), is obedience, not social engineering and humanistic reasoning that contradict His instruction.


Quote
I spent 15 years witnessing to streetkids and prostitutes and its the bible bashing repent now or be sent to hell that scares them away, and its the judgmental Christians that make the world turn a deaf ear to anything being said by any sort of Christian.

I have no doubt that you believe that, but that is because you hold to a social gospel believing that you're actually the one that is convincing these poor souls. Nothing could be further from the truth. No man, woman or child ever came to Christ because they liked the style of a sermon, or they enjoyed Christian rock, or because they identified with a Pastor that had tattoos, or because they were fed literal bread when they were hungry. None of this is what brings anyone to Christ. And the "proof" of that is that these things happen all the time without salvation occurring. They have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, it is by the sovereign grace of God that men are saved. All will not obey or listen to the gospel, but "some" will, because they are called and chosen by faith. To them, it becomes effectual.

Romans 10:16-17

Faith doesn't come by ignoring the word, contradicting the word or adulterating the word. It comes by love of God, which is obedience. Selah!
 

Quote
yes again one of my own personal experiences but its an experience that if more Christians had, or knew how these people think of us and why exactly, and therefor we did not do, would help us witness to people and actually get them to hear what we are saying.

That's just it. We cannot get anyone to listen to us and hear what we say. You have a "fundamentally" flawed view of how people are saved. as saith the scriptures, "Who hath believed our report or Witness?" Who will obey the gospel? No One! Unless God opens their eyes, they will remain blind no matter how many Tattoos you place on yourself, or how many loaves of bread you give, or how many children you don't discipline. God chooses, not you. Not me. Not street Preachers, Country Preachers or TV Preachers, but God. He always has, and he always will. Not according to your will, but according to his own will and mercy.

Romans 9:11-16


Quote
God will judge us with the same fiercness that we have judged others in our lives.

Tasha


Isaiah 30:8-11

Oh, I agree, it is for sure the Lord will judge. But not as you think, but as He always has. Righteous judgment against those called by his name who are unfaithful, disobedient and lawless. Those who look to the world for answers instead of the Bible.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Peng Bao on March 19, 2005, 12:34:17 PM
Amen brother Tony, I cound't have said it better myself. If one doesn't want to spank their kids, don't spank them. But don't try and convince reformed Christians that spanking is harmful, or that God needs to chill out or something. We have to answer to God rather than man or rather than to women. And that's the bottom line.

 Ps 119:119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.
 120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.

Where is the fear of God in christians now? It's all gone. I do believe that she said she deleted her account, but to others who might be tempted to think like her, Here is a good article.  from the Institutes, and people who have no fear of God to do whatever they please really need to read it.


Chapter 4.



4. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD STIFLED OR CORRUPTED, IGNORANTLY OR MALICIOUSLY.

Sections.

The knowledge of God suppressed by ignorance, many falling away into superstition. Such persons, however, inexcusable, becausetheir error is accompanied with pride and stubbornness.
Stubbornness the companion of impiety.
No pretext can justify superstition. This proved, first, from reason; and, secondly, from Scripture.
The wicked never willingly come into the presence of God. Hence their hypocrisy. Hence, too, their sense of Deity leads to nogood result.
1.Superstition

But though experience testifies that a seed of religion isdivinely sown in all, scarcely one in a hundred is found whocherishes it in his heart, and not one in whom it grows to maturityso far is it from yielding fruit in its season. Moreover, while somelose themselves in superstitious observances, and others, of setpurpose, wickedly revolt from God, the result is, that, in reward tothe true knowledge of him, all are so degenerate, that in no part ofthe world can genuine godliness be found. In saying that some fallaway into superstition, I mean not to insinuate that their excessiveabsurdity frees them from guilt; for the blindness under which theylabour is almost invariably accompanied with vain pride andstubbornness. Mingled vanity and pride appear in this, that whenmiserable men do seek after God, instead of ascending higher thanthemselves as they ought to do, they measure him by their own carnalstupidity, and neglecting solid inquiry, fly off to indulge theircuriosity in vain speculation. Hence, they do not conceive of him inthe character in which he is manifested, but imagine him to bewhatever their own rashness has devised. This abyss standing open,they cannot move one footstep without rushing headlong todestruction. With such an idea of God, nothing which they mayattempt to offer in the way of worship or obedience can have anyvalue in his sight, because it is not him they worship, but, insteadof him, the dream and figment of their own heart. This corruptprocedure is admirably described by Paul, when he says, that"thinking to be wise, they became fools" (Rom. 1: 22.) He hadpreviously said that "they became vain in their imaginations," butlest any should suppose them blameless, he afterwards adds that theywere deservedly blinded, because, not contented with sober inquiry,because, arrogating to themselves more than they have any title todo, they of their own accord court darkness, nay, bewitch themselveswith perverse, empty show. Hence it is that their folly, the resultnot only of vain curiosity, but of licentious desire and overweeningconfidence in the pursuit of forbidden knowledge, cannot be excused.

2.Conscious turning away from God

The expression of David, (Psalm 14: 1, 53: 1,) "The fool hassaid in his heart, There is no God," is primarily applied to thosewho, as will shortly farther appear, stifle the light of nature, andintentionally stupefy themselves. We see many, after they havebecome hardened in a daring course of sin, madly banishing allremembrance of God, though spontaneously suggested to them fromwithin, by natural sense. To show how detestable this madness is,the Psalmist introduces them as distinctly denying that there is aGod, because although they do not disown his essence, they rob himof his justice and providence, and represent him as sitting idly inheaven. Nothing being less accordant with the nature of God than tocast off the government of the world, leaving it to chance, and soto wink at the crimes of men that they may wanton with impunity inevil courses; it follows, that every man who indulges in security,after extinguishing all fear of divine judgement, virtually deniesthat there is a God. As a just punishment of the wicked, after theyhave closed their own eyes, God makes their hearts dull and heavy,and hence, seeing, they see not (Matt. 13:14-15; cf. Isa.6: 9-10 and Ps. 17:10). David, indeed, is the best interpreter of his own meaning, when he says elsewhere, the wicked has "no fear of God before his eyes," (Psalm 36: 1;) and, again, "He has said in his heart, God has forgotten; he hideth his face; he will never see it."(Ps. 10:11)

Thus although they are forced to acknowledgethat there is some God, they, however, rob him of his glory bydenying his power. For, as Paul declares, "If we believe not, heabideth faithful, he cannot deny himself," (2 Tim. 2: 13; so thosewho feign to themselves a dead and dumb idol, are truly said to denyGod. It is, moreover, to be observed, that though they struggle withtheir own convictions, and would fain not only banish God from theirminds, but from heaven also, their stupefaction is never so completeas to secure them from being occasionally dragged before the divinetribunal. Still, as no fear restrains them from rushing violently inthe face of God, so long as they are hurried on by that blindimpulse, it cannot be denied that their prevailing state of mind inregard to him is brutish oblivion.

3.We are not to fashion God according to our own whim

In this way, the vain pretext which many employ to clothetheir superstition is overthrown. They deem it enough that they havesome kind of zeal for religion, how preposterous soever it may be,not observing that true religion must be conformable to the will ofGod as its unerring standard; that he can never deny himself, and isno spectra or phantom, to be metamorphosed at each individual'scaprice. It is easy to see how superstition, with its false glosses,mocks God, while it tries to please him. Usually fastening merely onthings on which he has declared he sets no value, it eithercontemptuously overlooks, or even undisguisedly rejects, the thingswhich he expressly enjoins, or in which we are assured that he takespleasure. Those, therefore, who set up a fictitious worship, merelyworship and adore their own delirious fancies; indeed, they wouldnever dare so to trifle with God, had they not previously fashionedhim after their own childish conceits. Hence that vague andwandering opinion of Deity is declared by an apostle to be ignoranceof God: "Howbeit, then, when ye knew not God, ye did service untothem which by nature are no gods."(Gal.4:8 ) And he elsewhere declares, thatthe Ephesians were "without God" (Eph. 2: 12) at the time when theywandered without any correct knowledge of him. It makes littledifference, at least in this respect, whether you hold the existenceof one God, or a plurality of gods, since, in both cases alike, bydeparting from the true God, you have nothing left but an execrableidol. It remains, therefore, to conclude with Lactantius, (Instit.Div. lib i. 2,, 6,) "No religion is genuine that is not inaccordance with truth."

4.Hypocrisy

To this fault they add a second, viz., that when they dothink of God it is against their will; never approaching him withoutbeing dragged into his presence, and when there, instead of thevoluntary fear flowing from reverence of the divine majesty, feelingonly that forced and servile fear which divine judgement extortsjudgement which, from the impossibility of escape, they arecompelled to dread, but which, while they dread, they at the sametime also hate. To impiety, and to it alone, the saying of Statiusproperly applies: "Fear first brought gods into the world," (Theb.lib. i.) Those whose inclinations are at variance with the justiceof God, knowing that his tribunal has been erected for thepunishment of transgression, earnestly wish that that tribunal wereoverthrown. Under the influence of this feeling they are actuallywarring against God, justice being one of his essential attributes.Perceiving that they are always within reach of his power, thatresistance and evasion are alike impossible, they fear and tremble.Accordingly, to avoid the appearance of condemning a majesty bywhich all are overawed, they have recourse to some species ofreligious observance, never ceasing meanwhile to defile themselveswith every kind of vice, and add crime to crime, until they havebroken the holy law of the Lord in every one of its requirements,and set his whole righteousness at nought; at all events, they arenot so restrained by their semblance of fear as not to luxuriate andtake pleasure in iniquity, choosing rather to indulge their carnalpropensities than to curb them with the bridle of the Holy Spirit.

But since this shadow of religion (it scarcely even deserves to becalled a shadow) is false and vain, it is easy to infer how muchthis confused knowledge of God differs from that piety which isinstilled into the breasts of believers, and from which alone truereligion springs. And yet hypocrites would fain, by means oftortuous windings, make a show of being near to God at the very timethey are fleeing from him. For while the whole life ought to be oneperpetual course of obedience, they rebel without fear in almost alltheir actions, and seek to appease him with a few paltry sacrifices;while they ought to serve him with integrity of heart and holinessof life, they endeavour to procure his favour by means of frivolousdevices and punctilios of no value. Nay, they take greater licensein their grovelling indulgences, because they imagine that they canfulfil their duty to him by preposterous expiations; in short, whiletheir confidence ought to have been fixed upon him, they put himaside, and rest in themselves or the creatures. At length theybewilder themselves in such a maze of error, that the darkness ofignorance obscures, and ultimately extinguishes, those sparks whichwere designed to show them the glory of God. Still, however, theconviction that there is some Deity continues to exist, like a plantwhich can never be completely eradicated, though so corrupt, that itis only capable of producing the worst of fruit.

Nay, we have still stronger evidence of the proposition for which I now contend, viz.,that a sense of Deity is naturally engraven on the human heart, inthe fact, that the very reprobate are forced to acknowledge it. Whenat their ease, they can jest about God, and talk pertly andloquaciously in disparagement of his power; but should despair, fromany cause, overtake them, it will stimulate them to seek him, anddictate ejaculatory prayers, proving that they were not entirelyignorant of God, but had perversely suppressed feelings which oughtto have been earlier manifested.



Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Shirley on January 21, 2007, 02:46:03 PM
There is now a concerted effort in the liberal state of California to pass a law making it a crime to spank children. I mean really send people to prison for years for this. What do you all think of this? Is it big brother coming to reality, or is this a good thing, as one of my christian friends told me?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Terrell Meyer on January 21, 2007, 06:34:34 PM
California Lawmaker Proposes No-Spanking Law 

Fri Jan 19, 3:20 PM ET
 
LOS ANGELES (AFP) - A California lawmaker says she has proposed a law that would make spanking a small child a crime to be punished by jail time or a fine.
 
The bill, backed by Democrat Sally Lieber of San Francisco, a member of the state legislature, would outlaw spanking children three years old or younger and carry a possible penalty of jail time or a 1,000-dollar fine.

"I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child three years old or younger," said Lieber, who plans to introduce the bill next week.

The bill, which was still being drafted, would make the crime a misdemeanor and be written to ban "any striking of a child, any corporal punishment, smacking, hitting, punching, any of that," Lieber said.

The bill will likely pit those who advocate protecting children at all costs against lawmakers wary of government intervention creating a possible meddlesome "nanny state."

"Where do you stop?" said Republican Chuck Devore. "At what point are we going to say we should pass a bill that every parent has to read a minimum of 30 minutes every night to their child? This is right along those same lines."

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who has the authority to veto the bill if it is adopted, has so far avoided endorsing or rejecting the idea.

In an interview with the San Jose Mercury News, which first reported the proposal this week, the film-star-turned-politician said he was "smacked about everything" during his childhood in Austria.

"That was the way Austria worked," he told the newspaper. "You know, I think it maybe had something to do with after the war. People were maybe more angry and more frustrated, you know, having lost the war or whatever else."

The governor said he understood the desire to "get rid of the physical, the brutal behavior that some parents have."

And he added that he and his wife, Maria Shriver, have never hit their four children. "Absolutely not," he said.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Melanie on January 22, 2007, 07:34:36 AM
There is now a concerted effort in the liberal state of California to pass a law making it a crime to spank children. I mean really send people to prison for years for this. What do you all think of this? Is it big brother coming to reality, or is this a good thing, as one of my christian friends told me?

I heard about this two days ago on the news and I almost fell off my chair. I find it strange that some people don't know the difference between child abuse and spanking.

In reading over this thread this morning, I stumbled upon a message by Tony Warren to a woman named Tasha that almost brought me to tears. Judging by what I've read here, I'm sure some here will think it cruel and unloving, but I felt the spirit of God in these great truths. We, as christians are really missing the boat.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=978.msg11773#msg11773

I just thought I'd share this intense message for the many who had not read it before. It's a strong defense of sound Christian doctrines and a testimony on how so many so-called christians pervert God's word because of social changes. It's sad that so many in the church today judge by what seems right in today's society rather than what is written in God's word. Since when does God's word fall out of vogue even with christians?

I don't know what will happen in California with this terrible law, my guess is that they will probably pass it. But I do know that the world is just degrading and falling apart so fast in forsaking God's laws that I can't imagine it going on very much longer. There just doesn't seem to be any common sense left in the world, even in the church anymore.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Rose on January 22, 2007, 09:30:17 AM
Here is a good article. http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/bk1ch04.html from the Institutes, and people who have no fear of God to do whatever they please really need to read it.


 This link is no longer working. Does anyone know where an active link is, or what was on this page?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Chris on January 22, 2007, 03:21:09 PM
This is how it starts with these liberals. They use volitile language like we shouldn't allow people to be "beating a 2 year old child," and so it puts in your mind someone actually beating infants mercilessly. Once they do that, they have won. Then they'll make the law include four year olds, then five, then no child can be spanked. These liberals know how to get things done. An inch at a time. Unfortunately, Christians don't stick together and can't do a thing about it. They just throw up their hands and say, Oh Well! It's sickening what this country is becoming. But I'm sure you'll hear the usual suspects whinning about how unloving spanking is, and how brutal we are to be condoning it. That's a given I guess.


Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on January 22, 2007, 06:20:41 PM
Unfortunately, Christians don't stick together and can't do a thing about it. They just throw up their hands and say, Oh Well! It's sickening what this country is becoming. But I'm sure you'll hear the usual suspects whinning about how unloving spanking is, and how brutal we are to be condoning it. That's a given I guess.


  :laugh:  L.O.L. "The Usual Suspects," that was a good one. God calls spanking love, and they whine about how unloving it is. All while saying they are just trying to be compassionate and good christians. Puey!

Yes, this country is going to hell with the liberals whinning love, love, love all the way there. Frankly, I don't even understand why this is even an issue with christians, since it is written so clearly, many times in scripture what God desires we should do. What parents have done for thousands of thousands of years is now made to appear unloving and a reasson to be imprisioned!

 Lu 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Apostasy gone wild!
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on January 22, 2007, 06:28:03 PM
Here is a good article. http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/bk1ch04.html from the Institutes, and people who have no fear of God to do whatever they please really need to read it.


 This link is no longer working. Does anyone know where an active link is, or what was on this page?

That link no longer works. When I tried to follow, it kept switching to frames. But it's from book I, chapter IV of the institutes:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/calvin/institutes7-4.html

I don't think the knowledge of God is stifled or corrupted Ignorantly in this case, but wantonly. In other words, having no regard for justice, God's word or his instructions. You can read the whole book online right here.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on January 23, 2007, 03:57:40 AM

I would like to register a dissenting viewpoint. My girlfriend told me you needed some help over here, and from reading this thread I can see that you do. For some sound advice on proper christian treatment of children, you can find some good articles here.

http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

There is a pettition with over 500 signatures that I hope many of you will sign against corporal punishment in the absuse in spanking children. How some people can think that is Godly, I don't know. There are lots of scriptures against this travesty of beating children. I do hope that you will consider them.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Penne on January 23, 2007, 08:18:05 AM
This is how it starts with these liberals. They use volitile language like we shouldn't allow people to be "beating a 2 year old child," and so it puts in your mind someone actually beating infants mercilessly.

You're right Chris, the link Betty gave sends you to a link with bold black letters stating "ALERT BABYWHIPPING BUSINESS." ::)

Betty, will you and your girlfriend go after God next for using corporal punishment and tell Him it's ungodly?  You don't come with sound advice, it's sounds more like Dr. Phil and Oprah advice.
How some people can think that is Godly, I don't know. There are lots of scriptures against this travesty of beating children. I do hope that you will consider them.

Do you mind sharing those verses?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on January 23, 2007, 08:21:08 AM

I would like to register a dissenting viewpoint. My girlfriend told me you needed some help over here,


 Your girlfriend--let me guess ..the usual suspect?

Quote
and from reading this thread I can see that you do. For some sound advice on proper christian treatment of children, you can find some good articles here.

Well that depends upon your definition of the word "good". Personally, I would call it humanistic tripe at war with the word of God, but then, that's just me.

But since this is a bible forum, I would be interested in those scriptures you allege are against this so-called trvesty. Got any?

or is all you have on that site human testimony substituting for scripture?

 Jer 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
 18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
 19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on January 23, 2007, 08:31:23 AM
Quote
1. The knowledge of God suppressed by ignorance, many falling away into superstition. Such persons, however, inexcusable, because their error is accompanied with pride and stubbornness.
2. Stubbornness the companion of impiety.

Sound Familiar? Pride and stubbornness! Everytime we try to witness to christians what the word of God requires, their replies are accompanied not by scripture proving that they are justified (the Dog praying for example) but by pride and stubborn refusal to accept these truths. In fact, justification of their error. It's always the same. Here we have this woman convinced love is in rejecting God's plain instruction for Dr. Spock's instruction. Witness scripture to her and she will inevitably start whinning about how crulel we are or how we lack love and compassion, or pine about how we can be so mean. Isn't that always what we get with these women?  Emotion instead of obedience and faithfulness.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on January 23, 2007, 10:56:54 PM
Prov 29:15: The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.


Spanking is defined by the opposition as beating, hitting, slapping with intent to vent your anger so as to get your way. If that is someone's concept of Biblical spanking they are grossly mistaken. It may be the upbringing they remember -- but they confuse what they remember and see happening today by some with the proper administration of disciple.

Some arguments against spanking are:

1.  Spanking is abuse or leads to abuse
2.  Spanking is ineffective
3.  Spanking teaches that violence is OK
4.  Spanking creates bullies
5.  Spanking violates human rights
6.  Spanking is not necessary, use other forms of discipline
7.  Spanking leads to psychological damage and fear
8.  Spanked children will feel unloved and untrusting
9.  Spanking is a form of assault
10. Spanking leads to violence against others (learning by example)

My comment is that God intends children to be corrected when they commit willful acts of disobedience, and spanking is one of those means. It is not done out of anger, or to embarrass the child, or to be cruel. It is done calmly, orderly, and with love -- which means there is instruction and explanation with the correction and all things under control. There are many other ways to discipline (teach) a child to be obedient, but when willful disobedience rears its sinful head the rebellious act can not be ignored or dismissed with a lesser form of punishment.

Those who refuse to spank when it is clearly called for think they have found a 'better way'. But God says that if we love our children we will consistently and even-handedly discipline them. That means we have a consistent measure of wrong -- things deserving of a spanking do not change each passing day -- correction is not whimsical and capricious but done according to the measure of the law broken.


Pro 13:24
24 -- Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.


The opposition is in essence teaching their children that they will not set boundaries that are enforced, that the parents word can be contested and defied, and that this is how to be 'loving' to a child. Yet, an uncorrected child DOES NOT feel loved but neglected and unwanted. Would we think that God loves us if He did not chasten us for our willful disobedience? We would feel unwanted if God didn't care enough to seek our best and highest good. God says "for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth" but the opposition says such thoughts are unkind and unloving, why do they think that?

I see their uncorrected children everywhere -- willful, defiant, proud, mouthy, deceitful, hateful, angry, vengeful, mean-spirited, lazy, etc. The one means to subdue the rebellion in the child is discarded by them as 'antiquated', and the result is the destruction of society wholesale. Could it be, that those who hate correction are unwilling to correct. Those who love lawlessness can not deny lawlessness in their offspring. Do vipers desire to correct vipers?

Those who are unwilling to judge others fear being judged themselves -- and for good reason, they are guilty of judgment. Are not the arguments against spanking simply a way of arguing against the necessity of God's own Judgment Day -- the thing mankind fears is his rightful punishment before God, so the goal becomes to eradicate whatever reminds him of that discomforting reality. Those who cling to 'self-esteem' and 'human rights' are incapable of envisioning a God who Righteously executes His wrath -- how dare He. Wrapping themselves in rights they don't actually possess and self-esteem neither they nor their children deserve is an illusion meant to avoid the truth. We have no rights excepted those given by God (not by the courts) -- our 'right' is to be found guilty and punished and our self-esteem is only a sin of pride and worthy of more punishment.

And so, properly administered, spanking does not lead to abuse nor is it abusive but rather an act of love. Neither is it ineffective but a great deterrent for the haughtiness of youth, which now is on display amongst today’s many uncorrected youth. Neither does spanking teach violence but rather justice -- a child learns that with sin comes suffering and pain, a valuable lesson lost on today's value-free youth.

Spanking does not create bullies or meanness, it does the opposite -- spanking teaches humility and conformity to doing right. Without a home built around law and order a child eventually enters society unprepared to be obedient to either the law of the nation of the law of God. In defiance to the law the child is 'corrected' by the law, and harshly. It will be the unfortunate lawman who has to dispense the law in the form of a bullet to stop the raging arrogance of our uncorrected youth. But even worse, it will be God who casts that lawless man or woman into eternal punishment.

Would it be better that your child learn right from wrong and grow knowing to fear Yahweh, who deserves to be feared, and consequently the children of men learn to respect the laws of a nation appointed by God over them.

Or does the opposition have it correct: We should seek to mold our child's heart to be in the image of our own lawless God-hating heart -- thereby creating a monster in the image of the parent, a rotten tree bearing rotten fruit. Certainly the uncorrected 'monster' is one that fallen man can 'love', though the consequence of it all be death and that everlasting.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on January 24, 2007, 08:36:35 AM
Those who refuse to spank when it is clearly called for think they have found a 'better way'. But God says that if we love our children we will consistently and even-handedly discipline them. That means we have a consistent measure of wrong -- things deserving of a spanking do not change each passing day -- correction is not whimsical and capricious but done according to the measure of the law broken.


Pro 13:24
24 -- Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.


 Hallelujah!  And this is what these new-age christians can't seem to understand. That when God says something is right and good, it's not up for debate. When God says something is love, we don't claim it's cruel and will harm the child. But these people, in their own sight, think they are wiser than God.

 Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

 They are not good Christians but are perverting all moral distinctions. They are not ashamed of sins against God in disobedience, and are grown to a desperate humanistic impiety. How anyone can call themselves Christian and flaunt their rejection of Christ's instruction is beyond me.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on January 29, 2007, 02:16:50 PM

 Hallelujah!  And this is what these new-age christians can't seem to understand. That when God says something is right and good, it's not up for debate.

No, but your interepretation is. I think there's more pressure for males, because of their egoes, to have quick-fix answers to problems with children. And they have interpreted scripture so that spanking looks like the quick fix bandaid. On the other hand, Women, and particularly mothers, are usually more inclined to be more christlike, to use love, and want to do what will work best down the road.

From reading some posts here, I see that the women here are far more caring about people, more loving, more christlike and compassionate than the men. They use their head rather than the bible as a stick.

So let me speak to you. Why not ask you husbands if he would consider it acceptable to hit you if you made a mistake, disagreed with him, or he was simply angry at you? If he says no (and he'd better), point out that it is even less fair to hit a child than an adult. That is in doing what is right.

I would like to make it crystal clear that contrary to what some people might say, spanking is NOT Christian! I would especially like to make this clear to all those spank happy Southern Baptists! The passages in Proverbs about the rod, if you take it literally what it actually is referring to is flogging which is done across the back.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on January 29, 2007, 06:47:47 PM

 Hallelujah!  And this is what these new-age christians can't seem to understand. That when God says something is right and good, it's not up for debate.

No, but your interepretation is. I think there's more pressure for males, because of their egoes, to have quick-fix answers to problems with children. And they have interpreted scripture so that spanking looks like the quick fix bandaid. On the other hand, Women, and particularly mothers, are usually more inclined to be more christlike, to use love, and want to do what will work best down the road.

From reading some posts here, I see that the women here are far more caring about people, more loving, more christlike and compassionate than the men. They use their head rather than the bible as a stick.

So let me speak to you. Why not ask you husbands if he would consider it acceptable to hit you if you made a mistake, disagreed with him, or he was simply angry at you? If he says no (and he'd better), point out that it is even less fair to hit a child than an adult. That is in doing what is right.

I would like to make it crystal clear that contrary to what some people might say, spanking is NOT Christian! I would especially like to make this clear to all those spank happy Southern Baptists! The passages in Proverbs about the rod, if you take it literally what it actually is referring to is flogging which is done across the back.

Greetings Betty,

Welcome to the community.  I think the problem arises because so many unsaved parents, who view their blessed children as "in their way" and show very little patience and loving discipline, often resort to beating a child, rather then administering loving discipline.  And NO, the rod of discipline through loving, Christian parents is not necessarily speaking of physical punishment.  I know the verses already given about the "rod" of correction, but you do make a good point.  How shall we deal with the following verses?  Shall we literally follow these instructions of Scripture as well?

Ex 21:15  And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Ex 21:17  And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

De 21:18  If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
De 21:19  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
De 21:20  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
De 21:21  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Mt 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Many Blessings,
Sandy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Penne on January 29, 2007, 11:46:08 PM
Betty (Quote)
No, but your interepretation is. I think there's more pressure for males, because of their egoes, to have quick-fix answers to problems with children. And they have interpreted scripture so that spanking looks like the quick fix bandaid. On the other hand, Women, and particularly mothers, are usually more inclined to be more christlike, to use love, and want to do what will work best down the road.

Where do you acquire your philosophy from, Oprah?  This may be true if ALL men spanked and All women were saved making us all in reality Christ-like.  Not all men look for an immediate quick fix, at least not most of the men I know.  You make it sound like women/mothers are all Christ-like because of our maternal inclinations.  Nothing could be farther from the truth and there certainly aren’t any Scriptures to back up your accusation.



So let me speak to you. Why not ask you husbands if he would consider it acceptable to hit you if you made a mistake, disagreed with him, or he was simply angry at you? If he says no (and he'd better), point out that it is even less fair to hit a child than an adult. That is in doing what is right.

My husband is not my parent, therefore he does not discipline me neither do I discipline him.  We are a team rearing our children.  We do not spank out of anger or when they disagree us.  You can not compare a husband beating his wife to a parent chastising his child.  It is ridiculous and you know it is. 

I would like to make it crystal clear that contrary to what some people might say, spanking is NOT Christian!

Provide Scripture showing spanking is not Christian.  What merit do you have to declare (crystal clearly) it isn’t Biblical?  You may choose to spank or not, but please don’t tell me it isn’t biblical without backing it up with Scripture or else you’re adding to the Word of God.
Rev. 22:18, “…If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.”
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Rose on February 16, 2007, 08:24:30 AM
I would like to make it crystal clear that contrary to what some people might say, spanking is NOT Christian! I would especially like to make this clear to all those spank happy Southern Baptists! The passages in Proverbs about the rod, if you take it literally what it actually is referring to is flogging which is done across the back.

Spank happy southern baptists? Well that is really a generalization, isn't it? There is no one group that spanks. A good question should be, if this law passes, will christians continue to spank their children against the law? Will anyone here violate the law? Will that then be a violation of God's law to be obedient to civil law? I don't know.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: midas on February 17, 2007, 12:55:17 AM
What does GOD say about his laws and government laws and who should we abide by?


Romans 13:1-5  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Christians should be 'law abiding' citizens. God has set 'governments' in this world to make laws and to enforce them to keep order in society. A Christian should be obedient of such man made laws (that don't conflict with the Word of God) What does God say if government laws conflict with Gods law?

Acts 5:29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

When God's law and man's law conflict, the saints of God must obey God.*


Acts 4:19-20  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

In these verses, the apostles Peter and John had been commanded by the government to no longer speak or teach about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Peter and John knew it was against God's law to not speak about Jesus Christ, so they did not submit to the government authority.







Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on February 17, 2007, 05:30:56 AM

I think the problem arises because so many unsaved parents, who view their blessed children as "in their way" and show very little patience and loving discipline, often resort to beating a child, rather then administering loving discipline.  And NO, the rod of discipline through loving, Christian parents is not necessarily speaking of physical punishment.  I know the verses already given about the "rod" of correction, but you do make a good point.  How shall we deal with the following verses?  Shall we literally follow these instructions of Scripture as well?

Ex 21:15  And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Ex 21:17  And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

De 21:18  If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
De 21:19  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
De 21:20  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
De 21:21  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Mt 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


Sandy, you're mixing apples with oranges here.  You must know that many OT laws are pointing to a higher spiritual truth concerning some aspect of the Gospel.  The passages you quoted are no longer to be taken literally, but the underlying spiritual lesson remains -- namely that disobedience to our spiritual Father ultimately leads to spiritual death/eternal damnation.   Thus each verse of this nature needs to be viewed in light of and in harmony with the whole Bible.

A parent who loves their child should follow the same biblical principles that God demonstrates towards His children -- whose love for them is unequaled.  One basic and simple question that each parent should ask is ... what is the highest good for my child?  Is is not for his/her salvation?   Towards that end we follow the biblical principles of correction or chastening.

Heb 12
5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

2Sa 7
14  I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Pro 19
18  Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

 

Chastening and "the rod" can take many forms, and, just as God used various forms of chatisements towards His children in the Bible, parents do the same based upon a child's age, temperment, the type infraction, etc.   No one is advocating physical discipline (not to be confused with abuse) for the sake of physical discipline, but it has its place and is sometimes the most effective and efficient form of discipline. 

Consider . . .  Paul was physically knocked off his donkey to the ground in order to get his attention, and temporarily blinded and reduced to a state of helplessness whereby he could no longer "kick against the pricks":

Act 9
3  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7  And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8  And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.  

Consider . . .  David's spiritual sensitivity was such that a verbal confrontation by another man of God was enough to bring him to a state of true repentence, with the realization that all sin (though directed towards another) iis ultimately against God:

Psa 51
4  Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.  

Under the appropriate circumstances, a good swat on the behind is much preferred over passive neglect or hostility which amounts to emotional abuse that can do lasting damage.  Whereas a timely spankng brings home the point, is quickly over with, and 'clears the air'.  ;)

Punishment in any form is not intended to be pleasant, and the primary role of a parent is not that of 'friend'.  Clear boundaries with clear expectations & consequences provides much needed stability and a greater sense of security than an atmosphere of permissiveness or one that excludes physical restraints of any kind.   

I have no doubt that children who grew up in household where the judicious use of physical punishment was practiced (again not to be confused with physical abuse which the Bible clearly warns against), become more responsibile adults who understand 'accountability', 'consequences', 'duty', and more importantly, have a healthier respect for 'authority'.   A fear of consequenes also has its place.  A children who learn to respect and accept the authority of parents, are more readily capable of extending these crucial attributes towards the ultimate authority of God and His commandments:

judy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on February 17, 2007, 09:02:49 AM
>>>
Spank happy southern baptists? Well that is really a generalization, isn't it?
<<<

Of course. But this is what people resort to when they have no defense of scripture against God’s word of truth concerning what God's will is. They have to fill their posts with something, and so it is usually some generalization, innuendo, distraction or rhetoric. The Biblical fact is, "Biblical disciplinary spanking is a loving act, not an act of abuse. These are two entirely different things. To deny this, is to deny what God has inspired penned.

Proverbs 13:24

"Sometimes" spanking is the chastening that a child needs from "loving" parents. And Dr. Spock is not the arbiter of wisdom and truth, God is. The scriptures instructing this have already been given. It's a question of obedience, or thinking that we know Children better than God.
 

Quote
>>>
A good question should be, if this law passes, will Christians continue to spank their children against the law?
<<<

My guess is no, they won't. At least, not in general. Very few spanked their kids before the law, and anyone who gets out into the public has seen first hand the results of this neglect. To many Christians are knee deep in social engineering, so that it's not considered kind or loving or compassionate. And it is presumed to lack the patience in their form of Christianity. No, not many "professing" Christians would disobey such a law, because most of them have already abrogated Christian conscience, responsibility and parenting according to God's book. The sad truth is, our children are being schooled by Oprah Winfrey, Ernie and Bert, and Dr. Phill. Many Christians will probably be relieved that it's something they won't have to consider anymore.

Deuteronomy 30:17-19

A warning to Israel that if they turned away from the precepts of His word, He would turn away from them. It is set as an example to the congregation today against falling into the idolatry of the world system. Judy and Lee have already given excellent advice.


Quote
>>>
 Will anyone here violate the law?
<<<

Well, I don't live in California and I don't have small children, but if I did, I would spank my children when/if I deemed it necessary.

Acts 5:29

It, again, boils down to the heart to receive what God declares unto obedience, or ignoring what God says in favor of modern beliefs.


Quote
>>>
Will that then be a violation of God's law to be obedient to civil law?
<<<

No, because God's law of civil obedience is qualified, wherein His law supersedes any law man makes. Remember, God doesn't command us to obey all government laws, He tells us to obey, in all things lawful. In other words, as long as it isn't a violation of God's law. The faithful Christian pledges obedience in all things lawful and honest which are not in violation of the law of God. ie., if our government enacted a law that said we must kill all the male firstborn, we could not do that because it is not lawful. It might be by our government's law, but it is not lawful in God's jurisprudence. If the law said we must abort our children (as it did in China), we should not obey, because it is murder, a violation of God's law. And obedience of faith is very much a part of Christian soteriology. Lee brought up a very excellent example in the law that the king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon made (Daniel 3:4=18). That governmental law was a blatant violation of the law of God. Daniel could not obey this government's law to bow down to another god, because to do so would be a violation of God's law, which is supreme. Thus we understand that we can only obey, in all things lawful to God's jurisprudence.

Now, let me also add this, because I don't think that it has been touched on yet. That doesn't mean that we have to willingly go to prison as Martyrs. That in itself "might" even be a form of self-righteousness. Because it is a perfectly acceptable alternative to leave the state where this law was enacted. ie., we don't have to confront the government saying I'm going to spank and I'm going to stay here and do it in the town square. Whatever one's conscience allows.


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 17, 2007, 03:15:42 PM
Greetings Judy,

My questions were rhetorical.  For which you've appropriately shown the point for them.  I have no problem in lovingly spanking my children, or even now my grandchildren.  But, spanking is NOT the only way.  If Christian parents attain results through firm, loving discipline which does not include corporal punishment, I say, "good for them."  As Christian parents we much each allow our brothers and sisters in Christ to administer judgment, and justice in the way that works for them as a family, and brings glory to God.  We do not have the right to deny another believer Christian liberties we ourselves would fight to maintain.  We don't try to impose our will upon others, rather allow God to convict the hearts of every Christian parent to administer discipline to their offspring in whatever way God has shown them works for them while raising Godly children. 

Many Blessings,
Sandy 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on February 17, 2007, 10:24:10 PM
Greetings Judy,

My questions were rhetorical.  For which you've appropriately shown the point for them.  I have no problem in lovingly spanking my children, or even now my grandchildren.  But, spanking is NOT the only way.  If Christian parents attain results through firm, loving discipline which does not include corporal punishment, I say, "good for them."  As Christian parents we much each allow our brothers and sisters in Christ to administer judgment, and justice in the way that works for them as a family, and brings glory to God.  We do not have the right to deny another believer Christian liberties we ourselves would fight to maintain.  We don't try to impose our will upon others, rather allow God to convict the hearts of every Christian parent to administer discipline to their offspring in whatever way God has shown them works for them while raising Godly children. 

Many Blessings,
Sandy 

Sandy,

Neither I nor anyone else that I know of has suggested that "spanking was the only way".  Please don't confuse matters by suggesting otherwise.

judy

Judy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 18, 2007, 01:52:03 PM

Sandy,

Neither I nor anyone else that I know of has suggested that "spanking was the only way".  Please don't confuse matters by suggesting otherwise.

Judy

Greetings Judy,

I can't imagine what thread you are following.  No one here is suggesting spanking is the only way?  Please don't ignore the obvious! 

I’ll only address quotes from the more current threads beginning with reply #61:

“It's a strong defense of sound Christian doctrines and a testimony on how so many so-called christians pervert God's word because of social changes. It's sad that so many in the church today judge by what seems right in today's society rather than what is written in God's word. Since when does God's word fall out of vogue even with christians?”

This person advocates spanking children as being “a strong defense of sound Christian doctrines” and goes on to say “so many SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS pervert God’s word because of social changes.”  While it is true there is evidence (the verses have been posted) that corporal punishment (training a child through the use of spanking) is not against the Law of God, is correcting with the rod only, sound Christian doctrine, and Christian parents who do not condone corporal punishment therefore those who pervert God’s Word because of social changes?  No, there’s no one here claiming that spanking is the only way, and anyone who disagrees perverts the Word….right!

“But I'm sure you'll hear the usual suspects whinning about how unloving spanking is, and how brutal we are to be condoning it. That's a given I guess.”

Here we have the advocate for spanking calling believing parents who do not condone corporal punishment whinners.  That sounds an awful lot to me like if you don’t agree that spanking is a COMMAND from God then you are a whiner, and I’ll venture to guess this person probably ASSUMES you are not truly saved if you don’t spank your children into shape.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less unbiblical…right!

“Yes, this country is going to hell with the liberals whinning love, love, love all the way there. Frankly, I don't even understand why this is even an issue with christians, since it is written so clearly, many times in scripture what God desires we should do. What parents have done for thousands of thousands of years is now made to appear unloving and a reasson to be imprisioned!  Apostasy gone wild!”

Here the one advocating biblical spanking not only likens Christian parents who do not condone corporal punishment to liberals, and going against “what God desires we should do”, but actually goes on to call loving Christian parents who have decided another way of disciplining their children as committing apostasy.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less as unbiblical….right!

“I don't think the knowledge of God is stifled or corrupted Ignorantly in this case, but wantonly. In other words, having no regard for justice, God's word or his instructions.”

Here, those Christian parents who choose against corporal punishment know the truth, but corrupt the Word of God wantonly because they have no regard for God’s Word or His instructions.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less as unbiblical….right! 

“Betty, will you and your girlfriend go after God next for using corporal punishment and tell Him it's ungodly? You don't come with sound advice, it's sounds more like Dr. Phil and Oprah advice.”

Here, speaking against the Christian mother who does not condone corporal punishment, suggests she is ungodly, and likens her decision not to use corporal punishment as following advise from Dr Phil and Oprah.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less unbiblical…right!   

This is just a small sampling.  I could go on and on, but I hope you get the picture.  We do not have the right to deny Christian liberty to other Christians, and to call them illogical, unbalanced, going against the Word of God etc, etc, etc.  It is not our place to cast dispersions upon a brother or sisters in Christ simply because they choose not to agree with our opinions.  Do you really believe no one here has suggested that spanking is the only way? 

Many Blessings,
Sandy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Peng Bao on February 18, 2007, 02:02:21 PM
While it is true there is evidence (the verses have been posted) that corporal punishment (training a child through the use of spanking) is not against the Law of God,

 It doesn't say it is not against God's law, it says that it's an effective tool to train children.


Quote
is correcting with the rod only, sound Christian doctrine,


Again, you are perverting what people say. No one has even remotely suggested spanking was the only way.  I really am beginning to suspect the tactics used by you are deliberate, rather than a misunderstanding.


Quote
and Christian parents who do not condone corporal punishment therefore those who pervert God’s Word because of social changes? 

Yes, of course they are. If God says this is the way to train up a child, and someone says no, I don't condone or agree with that, then yes, they are perverting and disagreeing with God's law. Either that or they are denying that God knows what he's talking about.  You can't have it both ways Sandy.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on February 19, 2007, 03:26:23 AM

Sandy,

Neither I nor anyone else that I know of has suggested that "spanking was the only way".  Please don't confuse matters by suggesting otherwise.

Judy

Greetings Judy,

I can't imagine what thread you are following.  No one here is suggesting spanking is the only way?  Please don't ignore the obvious! 

I’ll only address quotes from the more current threads beginning with reply #61:

“It's a strong defense of sound Christian doctrines and a testimony on how so many so-called christians pervert God's word because of social changes. It's sad that so many in the church today judge by what seems right in today's society rather than what is written in God's word. Since when does God's word fall out of vogue even with christians?”

This person advocates spanking children as being “a strong defense of sound Christian doctrines” and goes on to say “so many SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS pervert God’s word because of social changes.”  While it is true there is evidence (the verses have been posted) that corporal punishment (training a child through the use of spanking) is not against the Law of God, is correcting with the rod only, sound Christian doctrine, and Christian parents who do not condone corporal punishment therefore those who pervert God’s Word because of social changes?  No, there’s no one here claiming that spanking is the only way, and anyone who disagrees perverts the Word….right!

“But I'm sure you'll hear the usual suspects whinning about how unloving spanking is, and how brutal we are to be condoning it. That's a given I guess.”

Here we have the advocate for spanking calling believing parents who do not condone corporal punishment whinners.  That sounds an awful lot to me like if you don’t agree that spanking is a COMMAND from God then you are a whiner, and I’ll venture to guess this person probably ASSUMES you are not truly saved if you don’t spank your children into shape.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less unbiblical…right!

“Yes, this country is going to hell with the liberals whinning love, love, love all the way there. Frankly, I don't even understand why this is even an issue with christians, since it is written so clearly, many times in scripture what God desires we should do. What parents have done for thousands of thousands of years is now made to appear unloving and a reasson to be imprisioned!  Apostasy gone wild!”

Here the one advocating biblical spanking not only likens Christian parents who do not condone corporal punishment to liberals, and going against “what God desires we should do”, but actually goes on to call loving Christian parents who have decided another way of disciplining their children as committing apostasy.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less as unbiblical….right!

“I don't think the knowledge of God is stifled or corrupted Ignorantly in this case, but wantonly. In other words, having no regard for justice, God's word or his instructions.”

Here, those Christian parents who choose against corporal punishment know the truth, but corrupt the Word of God wantonly because they have no regard for God’s Word or His instructions.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less as unbiblical….right! 

“Betty, will you and your girlfriend go after God next for using corporal punishment and tell Him it's ungodly? You don't come with sound advice, it's sounds more like Dr. Phil and Oprah advice.”

Here, speaking against the Christian mother who does not condone corporal punishment, suggests she is ungodly, and likens her decision not to use corporal punishment as following advise from Dr Phil and Oprah.  But no one here is advocating spanking only, and anything less unbiblical…right!   

This is just a small sampling.  I could go on and on, but I hope you get the picture.  We do not have the right to deny Christian liberty to other Christians, and to call them illogical, unbalanced, going against the Word of God etc, etc, etc.  It is not our place to cast dispersions upon a brother or sisters in Christ simply because they choose not to agree with our opinions.  Do you really believe no one here has suggested that spanking is the only way? 


Sandy,

It was in response to my post that you made the charge that "spanking is NOT the only way".  And when I confronted you about it, you moved past my post to bits and pieces of the posts of others, which you have (again) mischaracterized or taken out of context.  You take about as much liberties with other people's word as you do with God's Word.

You have long been wearing thin the patience of others, and may want to start thinking twice about what you say, before you say it.

Job 6:24 
Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Job 27:4 
My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.


judy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Penne on February 19, 2007, 05:11:09 AM
Sandy,

You took one of my statements and used it out of context.  Quite frankly I don’t appreciate that. 

The whole topic of this thread is “spanking.”  It isn’t about is spanking used for every offence a child makes.  It’s about should we as christian spank our children when deemed necessary.  The link Betty provided said it isn’t biblical to spank so therefore my reply still remains, it’s more of Oprah’s and Dr. Phil’s philosophy on the correct way to rear children.  It’s a shame when Christians look to the ways of the world in rearing their families to what exalts and opposes everything biblical.

You’re right, we can’t impose our ways upon others. God forbid, that would be politically incorrect.  We must however judge what is right or wrong according to what God gives us and stand firm on witnessing to the truth.

Luke 16:13
  "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Penne
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 19, 2007, 11:42:30 AM
Sandy,

You took one of my statements and used it out of context.  Quite frankly I don’t appreciate that. 

The whole topic of this thread is “spanking.”  It isn’t about is spanking used for every offence a child makes.  It’s about should we as christian spank our children when deemed necessary.  The link Betty provided said it isn’t biblical to spank so therefore my reply still remains, it’s more of Oprah’s and Dr. Phil’s philosophy on the correct way to rear children.  It’s a shame when Christians look to the ways of the world in rearing their families to what exalts and opposes everything biblical.

You’re right, we can’t impose our ways upon others. God forbid, that would be politically incorrect.  We must however judge what is right or wrong according to what God gives us and stand firm on witnessing to the truth.

Luke 16:13
  "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Pene

Greetings Pene,

You will probably be surprised to hear that I whole-heartedly agree with everything you have said.  Even my taking your comment out of context.  I did this deliberately, (which is why I did not mention anyones name) simply to show how hostile many here became at the prospect that CHRISTIAN parents can have another perspective when it comes to disciplining our covenant children, even if its true that their perspective appears more like the world.  You and others who advocate spanking (I too advocate the need to spank) have made the rod of correction a literal rod, and in doing this miss the point of the ROD being Christ, and training our children with the Rod of righteousness.  We are commanded to train up our child in the way he should go.  This speaks of training them from the Word of truth.  If you do an earnest study of the word rod, then I wonder if you would conclude that the rod of correction is meant as corporal punishment?  I found it incorporates a much wider application then that of spanking, even though the Bible clearly suggests a good old fashioned spanking is not only at times necessary, but gets to the very SEAT of the problem.   ;)

Many Blessings,
Sandy     
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Robert Powell on February 19, 2007, 12:15:01 PM
Greetings Pene,

You will probably be surprised to hear that I whole-heartedly agree with everything you have said.  Even my taking your comment out of context.  I did this deliberately,

So you readily admit your deceit? Boy, you are one strange piece of work.


Quote
(which is why I did not mention anyones name) simply to show how hostile many here became at the prospect that CHRISTIAN parents can have another perspective when it comes to disciplining our covenant children, even if its true that their perspective appears more like the world.

No, what you did was lied or bore false witness against those posting to you to make it seem like they were saying spanking was the only way to handle children, which none of them said. Not one of them made any such comments. You have given false witness against them, and no matter how you try to clean it up after the fact, that's what you did. Sandy, how do you expect anyone to respect you or take you seriously when you continually practice this type of deceit? Do you think that the ends justify the means? What's wrong with you? You use to be an honest person. What happened? You talk about hostile, how do you expect people to react when you do these things? I hope that you go and pray about this and straighten your life out, because you are destroying any witness you had by your behavior.

 Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 19, 2007, 04:01:17 PM
Greetings Robert,

How is it deceitful when one admits to taking something out of context?  Since I was honest you consider me to be deceitful?  To my way of thinking that is odd.

How can I be bearing false witness against those posting when I very deliberately left out the names of those I quoted?  Who am I bearing false witness against?  If none of those I quoted had made the comments, how could I quote them?  It was not my purpose to bear false witness against a brother or sister in Christ.  

Do I think the ends justify the means?  I take it you mean do I believe it was okay to quote out of context for a specific purpose.  Obviously I had a point to make or I would not have bothered.  You see we can make statements and tell Christian parents that if they do not discipline the biblical way…according to those in favor of spanking this would be we MUST spank if we would discipline according to God.  Many have made the point that in doing it according to Scripture, then the child becomes more respectful, better behaved, well-mannered etc.  How can we make a dogmatic argument in favor of our perception of the biblical way, when very clearly this biblical way is sometimes as much a failure as those choosing another way of discipline.  I’m sure we all know of Christian children who are spanked, and still the worst brats, ill-mannered, disrespectful etc.  I’m sure we also know of adults who were raised in Christian homes with biblical spanking who are today a role model for ungodly behavior. 

That’s the problem, there is no way when disciplining that we can know with absolute certainty that our children will turn into fine, upstanding Christians.  We simply do the best we can, and include an abundant amount of prayer for guidance.  Sometimes spanking is called for, and other times some other form of discipline will suffice.  We love our children, so as believers we try to train them to first and foremost love the Lord.

I’m really sorry that my post caused you to respond in the manner you did.  It is always wrong to say or do something that would cause your brother to stumble.  Had I known that my response would have been so misunderstood, then I would not have posted it.     

Many Blessings,
Sandy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Fear_God on February 19, 2007, 10:50:26 PM
Greetings,

I went through most of what was said on this thread and I could not believe so much can be said on one subject! I shall just add a testimonish type thing.

I come from a family of 11 (My Dad and Mom and 2 sisters and 6 brothers) and I have found (personal experience) that disciplining a child with the rod is probably the best way. I obviously have not had children (only 16) but from the way I see it in the family it has helped.

My Father does not administer the rod any more though not because he has changed his view on it. The last three of my brothers have not had all that much discipline and if you witnessed them you could tell. They are not what I would call "brats" but I would say that they have less respect for commands and rules that my Dad has set up. I do not suffer physiological problems (strange isn't it?) and see the significance of applying the rod. Have not been spanked for some time, though I know that I should have in last 4 years (last time I was spanked was by my Mom, so much for woman being more Christ-like {joking}).

Perhaps the Scriptures have provided the best way for raising a child, and it appears that those verses have been brought forth several times. Scripture alone. Thanks for the posts folks! Very enlightening.

In Christ.



Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 23, 2007, 01:02:02 PM
Greetings All,

I thought I was finished with this particular thread but, I find it necessary to once again defend the statements I’ve made here.  This thread has been used to call me a liar, so I must answer to such serious, ungodly charges.  The purpose of my joining in this discussion was seeing how some responded to other believers who not only say spanking is unbiblical, but that it is even abusive behavior.  I probably would have stayed out of the discussion altogether since I had for more than three years, if the discussion had not become one centered on a very prevalent attitude by some in this community.  That attitude is that if anyone dares to disagree with some of you then they are liars, heretics, and unsaved. 

Robert Powell charged me with lying because I had taken comments made, out of context to make the point that we must allow some disagreement (liberties) over disputable matters.  If Robert had simply said something like, I understand your reasoning, but where do you get off taking comments out of context to make your point?  Then we could have engaged in civil discussion and hopefully come to like-mindedness about how we should engage one another in these forums.  But, Robert revealed a bit more, and went too far in his accusations when he said, “No, what you did was lied or bore false witness against those posting to you to make it seem like they were saying spanking was the only way to handle children, which none of them said. Not one of them made any such comments.” 

Robert’s comments cannot relate to me taking comments out of context, how could they since he clearly saw that I had readily admitted to having done this.  I can only conclude that he calls me a liar from the position that no one in this thread has claimed that anyone who does not spank their children show they are not following the word of God, but instead are following the ways of the world through advise from Oprah Winfrey, or that spanking is the only way.  Like so many of you who so easily forget what you say, Robert’s own words prove he too has done exactly what I have said.  You can read his words for yourself in reply #50, for I dare not be accused of taking his remarks out of context.   

So the argument goes, we must spank or we are not doing it God’s way.  And it is further implied that if we do not spank we are probably not even Christians.  Where did we get this word “spank?”  It certainly isn’t found on the pages of Scripture.  I suggest that man came up with this word “spanking” because it sounds so less harsh then what the Word of God actually commands parents to do.  God calls us to “beat” our children with a “rod.”  Beating sounds so harsh, how can we as loving Christian parents engage in the act of beating the children we love, the children whom God has graciously placed in our care?  Oh yes, we had to come up with a word that better suits our consciences.  But Christians are commanded to beat the child!  Why are we tip toeing around this obvious fact.  Many of you have used this passage from Proverbs to prove unequivocally that spanking is commanded in Scripture.   

Pr 23:12  ¶ Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
Pr 23:13  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pr 23:14  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. 

Is it true that beating a child with a rod will not kill him?  It’s not true if you use the literal rod in the sense many of you are attempting to.  There are many people behind bars today who have used a literal rod in some form or fashion, and beaten their own children to death.  So how can God be telling us that beating our child with a literal rod will not kill our child, when we know without doubt that it most certainly could?  The confusion is cleared up when we read in context the following verse which tells us the rod we are to beat them with is the same rod that will deliver his soul from hell. 

Is there evidence to show that those who have been beaten or spanked with a literal rod have been delivered from hell?  I like what Lori had to say when she said, “You can't spank "the sin nature" out of any child or adult for that matter.”  This is so true.  Why would we think that spanking our child with a literal rod will somehow make them love the Lord.  Again, Lori gives us the sound reason for disciplining (spanking) our children, “So, what is the main reason to spank our children other than to point them to the sin in their hearts? It is to be obedient to the Word of God.”

So what is this “rod” we are to beat our child with, that will not kill him, but will deliver their soul from hell?  The word “instruction” in vs. 12 is the same exact Hebrew word as “correction” in vs. 13.  If we “beat” our child with the Word of knowledge, if we instruct them in the paths of righteousness from the earliest age, then this “rod” of correction, or measure of discipline will be with them wherever they go, and it will not kill them, but will deliver their souls.  This, my friends is the beating with which we are to administer to our beloved children.  We have the promise of God:

Pr 22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Does this mean that any form of corporal punishment is without merit, or even unbiblical?  I would argue absolutely not!  In fact if you refuse to “beat” your child with the “rod” of correction that can deliver his/her soul from hell, then I pray to God that you spank them soundly.  Because children today aren’t worse because they are not being spanked, children today are worse because they are not being “beaten” with the TRUE “rod” of correction.  The ungodly children in our society today come from homes where parents not only do not administer the biblical rod of correction, but they do not administer any discipline at all.  How can we criticize parents who choose to do it the way that God has commanded?  Do they do it perfectly?  Do we do it perfectly?  We seek to help, exhort, and encourage one another in coming to a better understanding of the ways of God.  How are we doing this when we cannot allow for anyone to disagree with what we believe the Word tells us?  I’m simply asking that you show others the same compassion you wish to receive. 

Many Blessings,
Sandy   
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Colleen on February 23, 2007, 02:59:33 PM
You'll all have to forgive Sandy. She can't help herself.

 Hebrews 13:18
 "Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly".
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Penne on February 23, 2007, 03:09:53 PM
Greetings Robert,

How is it deceitful when one admits to taking something out of context?  Since I was honest you consider me to be deceitful?  To my way of thinking that is odd.

To your way of thinking it may be odd, but it's obvious to the rest of us.  I wonder if the criminals in prison know about this little secret... ADMIT to the crime to be found NOT GUILTY.

How can I be bearing false witness against those posting when I very deliberately left out the names of those I quoted?  Who am I bearing false witness against?  If none of those I quoted had made the comments, how could I quote them?  It was not my purpose to bear false witness against a brother or sister in Christ.  If I had wanted to do that I most definitely would have used their names. 

I don't know how it looks from your side but on my side I get to read all the previous replies.

I’m really sorry that my post caused you to respond in the manner you did.  It is always wrong to say or do something that would cause your brother to stumble.  Had I known that my response would have been so misunderstood, then I would not have posted it.     

Sandy, your brother didn't stumble.  You did.

So the argument goes, we must spank or we are not doing it God’s way.     

Are you serious?  That's not the argument!  That may be what you're trying to make it out to be, but it's about "Should We Spank Our Children."

even though the Bible clearly suggests a good old fashioned spanking is not only at times necessary, but gets to the very SEAT of the problem.   ;)

Oh... the Bible does suggest it, but we shouldn't tell other christian parents the Bible suggest a spanking? 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Glenda on February 23, 2007, 11:07:13 PM
Pro 1:7   The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction. 
Pro 1:8   My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:  
Pro 1:9   For they [shall be] an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck. 

These proverbs were written to christians, along with the ones about beating, sparing the rod ect.  I was just thinking, what if  this day and time kids (my son) listened to the instruction of their fathers and mothers ?  Most fathers and mothers today certainly don't have any wisdom or instruction to give. Even the "christian" parents today are so full of "dont hurt their self esteem, build up the little kiddo's , make them think the world revolves around them .
 I'm from the school of " kids should be seen not heard", and "speak when spoken to" which today in our society, is child abuse. I get so agrivated when I'm having a conversation with an adult and the kids listen and interject in the conversation like their grown, and the parent just lets them.
 I dont really have anything to add to the discussion, I guess I was just thinking in print about how far our society has slid down the tubes.
Glenda :'(
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Colleen on February 24, 2007, 07:38:59 AM
Pro 1:7   The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction. 
Pro 1:8   My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:  
Pro 1:9   For they [shall be] an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck. 

These proverbs were written to christians, along with the ones about beating, sparing the rod ect.  I was just thinking, what if  this day and time kids (my son) listened to the instruction of their fathers and mothers ?  Most fathers and mothers today certainly don't have any wisdom or instruction to give. Even the "christian" parents today are so full of "dont hurt their self esteem, build up the little kiddo's , make them think the world revolves around them . ''


Amen Glenda. I think it is partly because parents today are trying to buy their children's love instead of earning it. They spoil them by giving them everything they want. They won't even let them walk to school three blocks away, allow them to play video games 6 hours straight, and then wonder why they are antisocial, fat and lazy. And they have forsaken the wisdom that has always been in God's instruction. The bottom line is that they think that they know bettter than the word of God in what is best for their children. we've seen that attitude in this forum and in this thread. By the time they figure out that it's not working, it's too late for the children and the seed has been sown. Could it be that the children that are grown today are disrespecting their parents by not raising their children as they were raised? Thinking there is a better way because the people on television say that there is? Is television a form of brainwashing?


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I dont really have anything to add to the discussion, I guess I was just thinking in print about how far our society has slid down the tubes.
Glenda :'(



There are those who would argue that society has not slidden anywhere and the children today are better and smarter and more educated than they ever were, but I am not one of them.  I think you'd have to be blind to not see the difference in love, respect and honor from the behavior of children of today versus previous generations.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 24, 2007, 10:40:50 AM
Greetings Robert,
How is it deceitful when one admits to taking something out of context? Since I was honest you consider me to be deceitful? To my way of thinking that is odd.
To your way of thinking it may be odd, but it's obvious to the rest of us. I wonder if the criminals in prison know about this little secret... ADMIT to the crime to be found NOT GUILTY.

If I am misunderstanding what you are saying here please forgive me, but the way I read this is that you are likening me taking comments out of context to make a point to criminal behavior? It this is what you are saying, I would respond by saying that this is a very common practice in this community, I've seen this done time and again, so I guess we criminal minds are in good company. The only difference between my having done this, and others is that I readily admit it, and I believe you are saying that makes me guilty of a crime?

I don't know how it looks from your side but on my side I get to read all the previous replies.

What exactly are you implying here? Did I not know that when I said, "I very deliberately left out the names"?

I’m really sorry that my post caused you to respond in the manner you did. It is always wrong to say or do something that would cause your brother to stumble. Had I known that my response would have been so misunderstood, then I would not have posted it.
Sandy, your brother didn't stumble. You did.

When is it ever glorifying God to call a brother or sister in the Lord a liar?  Is this no longer considered sinfulness?

Are you serious? That's not the argument! That may be what you're trying to make it out to be, but it's about "Should We Spank Our Children."
Quote

Yes the post is on "Should We Spank Our Children" What has happened to those who say "no" from their own Biblical understanding? Whether you want to admit it or not, as you have pointed out all the reply's are here to show how Godly parents who disagree with the opinion that the Bible teaches us to spank our children have been ridiculed beyond even a small measure of love. This is what I found so offensive in this particular thread. I did not deliberately set out to offend people here, but I did want to show a real lack of Christian love toward others. This is what has caused this great non Christ-like response. Your responses toward me on this topic prove conclusively the prevalent thing I find so troubling. My only mistake was in thinking that somehow I could show how uncharitable we can sometimes become when posting.

The whole point is that the Bible only suggests "spanking" it is not commanded.  Why is it considered so wrong to leave room for Christian parents who only see what the Bible commands, which is "to BEAT the child with a ROD"?

Sandy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Penne on February 24, 2007, 01:14:19 PM
Sandy,

You know as well as I do this conversation would never take place 50-100 years ago.  It is only because of all the current psychology that now we wonder if spanking is a good idea.  We wonder if our children will be psychologically damaged or if they will turn out to abuse someone out of anger.  There are even those Christians who claim spanking is unloving and unbiblical. This is my position on this entire topic that spanking is not unloving or unbiblical.  This position may offend some christian parents, but that’s ok.  I find that most of the Bible does offend those same Christians.

Penne
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Beechwood on February 24, 2007, 05:33:43 PM

Quote
Are you serious? That's not the argument! That may be what you're trying to make it out to be, but it's about "Should We Spank Our Children."

Yes the post is on "Should We Spank Our Children" What has happened to those who say "no" from their own Biblical understanding? Whether you want to admit it or not, as you have pointed out all the reply's are here to show how Godly parents who disagree with the opinion that the Bible teaches us to spank our children have been ridiculed beyond even a small measure of love.

So to disagree with God as the world does is considered love by you, and to agree with him and actually say he is right about rearing children is like ridicule, and having no love? I have never heard such ba-lon-ey in all my time as a christian. You can't disagree with what God says. That's like claiming that when God says, "thy shalt not steal" Godly christians can disagree with it because the world is full of God fearing thieves. It's a fool hearty argument. The 99.9 percent of Christians (the real ones) here who agree with God that spanking can be an effective training tool are in love with God. The rest are not reading the bible, are not teaching love in any way, but instruction from their own personal opinions.


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This is what I found so offensive in this particular thread. I did not deliberately set out to offend people here,

How in the world did you think that taking people's words out of context, whether mentioning their names or not,  would not offend them? Are you crazy? People know what they said, and so does everyone else. You think doing something wrong and then admitting to it makes it OK?

Sandy, perhaps you need to have a talk with a loving Pastor, Elder or Minister about your problem. Maybe even see a professional. I mean that sincerely!

 Love,
  Beachwood

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: abbiegirl on February 25, 2007, 08:50:09 AM
Sandy,

You know as well as I do this conversation would never take place 50-100 years ago.  It is only because of all the current psychology that now we wonder if spanking is a good idea.  We wonder if our children will be psychologically damaged or if they will turn out to abuse someone out of anger.  There are even those Christians who claim spanking is unloving and unbiblical. This is my position on this entire topic that spanking is not unloving or unbiblical.  This position may offend some christian parents, but that’s ok.  I find that most of the Bible does offend those same Christians.

Pene



I would agree that we would not be discussing this 50-100 years ago but perhaps they should have. They also did not discuss other issues such as sexual abuse, slavery, abortion, and homosexuality all of which were part of the culture then.  That is not really a valid argument because God has given us direction in His Word which never changes.  He always gives clear direction for all His commands - it is the sin and selfishness of mankind who has perverted the boundaries set by God always. The saddest part is when children get caught in the middle of so much injustice and degradation.  Sin used to be behind closed doors and easier to distance oneself from 50-100 years ago, to protect the innocent  but fast forward to today and media has changed all of that. Keeping our kids safe and protected is much more difficult than ever. Loving discipline including spanking is certainly commanded by God and allowed for Godly parents to administer as warranted. The difference is between loving , correctional discipline versus outright child abuse committed by parents out of anger and many times in altered mental status   ( drunkeness, drug abuse, etc...).    There is a huge difference.

  Luke 17:1-2   Then He said to the disciples,   " It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

Could anyone find fault with the boundaries given by our Lord?

Respectfully,

Abbiegirl
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Daisy on February 25, 2007, 12:01:44 PM
I would agree that we would not be discussing this 50-100 years ago but perhaps they should have. They also did not discuss other issues such as sexual abuse, slavery, abortion,
Abbiegirl

Abbiegirl,
  This isn't a discussion about child abuse, and you know it. If you want to start a discussion about child abuse, by all means you are free to do so. You know that too. But this isn't what this discussion is about. It's about "should we spank our children".

 I really find it distasteful when people deliberately try to take the discussion away from what was intended. It happens a lot lately, and I think we should be more careful. Not saying that yours was deliberate. But why not start a thread on "child abuse" if that is what you want to discuss. Christian spanking has nothing to do with child abuse. If I see anyone practicing child abuse, I'll report them, myself. But there are christians who say we shouldn't be allowed to spank our own children anymore. And there is a law that is being set up in California to make it illegal to do so. Not child abuse, but to spank. That is what this discussion was all about. Can you and sandy try and stay on topic?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 25, 2007, 02:42:55 PM
Greetings Beechwood,

What CHRISTIAN posting in this thread has said we are to disagree with God as the world does?  The problem with how you say you agree with what God says is right when it comes to child rearing is that you show time and again that you yourself do not have a proper understanding of what God says is right.  As proof of this you cling to a literal rod as though God is actually instructing parents to “beat” their children with a literal rod, and this will not kill them? 

In this entire thread, beginning in 2003, I think I recall only one or two posters who say that spanking is NEVER to be used when disciplining our children.  Again, you prove what I have stated when you say only “real Christians” agree with God that spanking can be an effective training tool.  You determine who is a “real” Christian, and in love with God exactly how?         

I should make some clarification here.  When I said I used people’s comments out of context, I was NOT saying that I mischaracterized what anyone had said.  Please understand me clearly here.  I DID NOT MISCHARACTERIZE ANYONE IN THIS THREAD.  I know that’s the common understanding when people use other’s words out of context.  This common practice here, with the added little bonus of mischaracterizing has happened to my own replies far more often then I care to remember.  I too find this dishonorable, and offensive.  Which is exactly why I did NOT MISCHARACTERIZE anyone here.  I probably could have been more clear if I had simply said that I had used other’s out of context comments to make the point that this topic was no longer about “should we spank“, but had instead become, “all Christians should spank, and if they don’t they are unbiblical, and disciplining according to the way of the world.”  Of course anyone could easily see what I had done if they had wanted to see it.

Beechwood, I do appreciate your concern for my spiritual well-being, but I wonder if you are able to clearly discern your own heart?  The reason I ask is because of the unloving, judgmental attitude you expressed toward a brother in Christ on this topic.  I know its easy to forget things we said years ago, perhaps it is this attitude toward Christians who disagree with how you interpret God’s Word on disciplining that has kept you from seeing the point I felt needed to be made on this subject? 

Whatever you do unto them, you do unto Him.
I am thankful that you aren't bringing up my children. They are proof that they can be brought up without physical harm.


You must be one of those people who privately interpret scripture to mean anything they want. Because clearly, God says that disciplining children this way is not only permissible, but should be used for correction when necessary. You in effect are saying, you don't care what God says, you don't feel it's right so that's that. Not the right response to be Christian. I think God knows more about children than you and the media does.


Quote
To each their own. Just in my opinion, you don't have to hit them to teach them.
In His Love.

To each unsaved person his own. But to Christians, God's own. Not our will but his will. Not what seems right in our own eyes, but what is right in God's eyes. Not what modern culture teaches, but what God's word teaches. It's the difference between biblical christians and pseudo christians.

PS, No one said you have to hit them to teach them. Don't change the subject.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on February 25, 2007, 04:23:25 PM
>>>
Abbiegirl,
  This isn't a discussion about child abuse, and you know it. If you want to start a discussion about child abuse, by all means you are free to do so. You know that too. But this isn't what this discussion is about. It's about "should we spank our children".
<<<

Good Point! It seems no matter how many times we try to stay on topic, someone wants to distract from the original point to their own issues outside of what is being discussed. Perhaps because if the topic was child abuse, we all would be in agreement, so let's just label spanking,  "child Abuse" and say, "How Terrible!"

 I would ask everyone to stay on topic, or start a new thread. And since some people are hard of hearing, Sandy, this includes you.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on February 25, 2007, 04:38:30 PM
>>>
Greetings Beechwood,

In this entire thread, beginning in 2003, I think I recall only one or two posters who say that spanking is NEVER to be used when disciplining our children.
<<<

Of course not. Now why would any REAL Christian say that, when it would be a total contradiction of what God says. As Beechwood said, the 99.9 percent of Christians accepting God's word of truth are the "real" Christians. I concur. The ones who humbly receive God's instructions rather than in rebellions twist them to suit their own will. The Christians who are honest with themselves receives God's word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures to see whether these things are so. Remember what God says of them?

2nd Corinthians 4:2

You see, "real" Christians do have a conscience, which leads them to receive what God says. While lip-service Christians have a seared conscience wherein they delude themselves in their dishonest behavior.


Quote
>>>
Again, you prove what I have stated when you say only "real Christians" agree with God that spanking can be an effective training tool.
<<<


Let me get this straight. You mean "REAL Christians" wouldn't agree?

I guess it all depends upon our definition of real Christians. The worldly definition of anyone who professes Christ, or God's definition of Real Christians who are faithful? Because they are two different animals. I think Beechwood uses God's definition, and I would agree. REAL Christians humbly surrender and agree with God, that spanking can be an effective training tool. Absolutely! By contrast, false Christians are obstinate, disobedient types, who in effect call God a liar by denying that what He inspired written is true.

Titus 1:16

Having a certain form or fashion of outward Godliness, but denying the power of the word. They claim that they know God, but it's their fruits, their works that give them away Sandy. They are characterized by their works of obedience or of disobedience. By their receiving or their ignoring the word. By their faithfully following or their unfaithfully attempting to lead alongside modernist philosophies.


Quote
>>>
...You determine who is a ôrealö Christian, and in love with God exactly how?         
<<<

No...

1st John 4:1

Neither I nor anyone else determines who a Christian is. But we are comnmanded by God to try, test or prove the Spirits sandy, or didn't you know that was part of the Bible also? The fact is, if a tree brings forth corruption, then it's pretty plain that it's not a good tree, isn't it? Likewise, when professing Christians adulterate, ignore, twist and deny the word of God, they show forth their corruption, do they not? We prove or try the Spirits by what comes out of their mouths against the word of God. It's not rocket science. How do we know them? By their fruits! We try them!

Matthew 7:16-20

In short, as God informs us "we shall know them by their fruits!" If you have a beef with that, I suggest that you argue with God in your next prayer!


Quote
>>>
This common practice here, with the added little bonus of mischaracterizing has happened to my own replies far more often then I care to remember.  I too find this dishonorable, and offensive.
<<<

Yeah, yeah, if only some of these scoundrels would quote you word for word....   ::)


Quote
>>>
 I probably could have been more clear if I had simply said that I had used otherÆs out of context comments to make the point that this topic was no longer about ôshould we spankô, but had instead become, ôall Christians should spank,
<<<

Oh, so that's what you were trying to do?  Silly us, we should have known you had good intentions.


Quote
>>>
...perhaps it is this attitude toward Christians who disagree with how you interpret GodÆs Word on disciplining that has kept you from seeing the point I felt needed to be made on this subject?
<<<

...but that's just the problem. What God says needs neither interpretation, nor RE-interpretation from you. The intent of God's words about discipline of children have been clear to every Christian for thousands and thousands of years! Selah!  Maybe you didn't hear me.

 ...THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of years!

Even clear to the atheists who bemoan God saying it. But strangely enough, in this time of Apostasy in the Churches, it now becomes not-so-clear and needing to be re-interpreted to not mean physical punishment at all, by professing Christians?  That's a Joke! You call plain words "our interpretation," and your (ahem) SPIRITUALIZING it away, not a private interpretation.  The rest (Beechwood's 99.9%) call it wresting or twisting God's word.  Real Christians have a conscience against doing such things, much less doing them continually as a regular practice. That's called a track record.


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Fear_God on February 25, 2007, 10:15:41 PM
Hello Mrs. Sandy,

You wrote: Is there evidence to show that those who have been beaten or spanked with a literal rod have been delivered from hell?

The spanking itself does not save a child from hell, but just like preaching, it is His mode to teach a child when he has done something naughty, and if God has chosen that child to be saved it will likely be through those means of discipline along with His Word (that is if the child is raised in a Christian home I warrant that many unbelievers were not beaten with the rod when they were a child, and as such God deals with them in a much different manner, such as the preaching of His Word).

You wrote also: I like what Lori had to say when she said, “You can't spank "the sin nature" out of any child or adult for that matter.”  This is so true.

Only God can save a child, and He has ordained a certain method; beating with a rod in instruction and His Word for further correction. Obviously beating does not drive out the sin nature, only through His Son is their Salvation from hell and sin. The rod, if administered rightly, will strike the fear of God in the child's (and no, not the fear of his dad) heart if it is accompanied by the Grace of God.

You wrote: Why would we think that spanking our child with a literal rod will somehow make them love the Lord.  Again, Lori gives us the sound reason for disciplining (spanking) our children, “So, what is the main reason to spank our children other than to point them to the sin in their hearts? It is to be obedient to the Word of God.”

Quite simply, because God said. Most, if not all of the language in Proverbs is literal not figurative. There is nothing wrong with beating a child. It is commanded. The child will not die if you beat him with the rod this is Scriptural, and common sense. A 3/8th inch dowel smacked on the rear of a child a dozen and a half times will not kill him (this may seem a bit tame considering the amount of disobedience, since I would think that some of the ways I back talked my Dad would call for more). I am living proof of that it does not kill you (bless God!). Obedience to God's Word is definitely a necessity, but what are His means? Does not God chasten us when we sin? (Hebrew 5:6-9:  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: (6)  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (7)  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (8)  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (9)  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?). God lays the same principle down for raising children.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: He_Leadeth_Me on February 26, 2007, 02:51:47 AM
This thread has given me a lot to think about and that is why I'm posting to it again. I decided to see what I could find out about this rod that is to be used in disciplining children.

The Hebrew for "rod" is shebet (Strong’s # 7626) and means a stick for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.

Strong's doesn't say what size the stick for punishing is. Surely a stick for writing would be strong enough not to break when pressure is applied to it but slender enough to make precise marks. A stick for walking would have to be thick enough and strong enough to bear some of the weight of a man. But what size stick is used for punishing a child? 

The Hebrew for "beat" is nakah (Strong’s # 5221) and means to strike lightly or severely; give wounds, give stripes.

So I question whether we are to strike lightly or severely. Why isn't the Bible explicit on this?

Also could you tell me which verses of the Old Testament we are to take literally and which ones figuratively? Should we take an eye for an eye? Why not?


Rod:

2 Sam. 7:14
Job 9:34
Job 21:9
Psalm 2:9
Psalm 23:4
Psalm 74:2
Psalm 89:32
Psalm 125:3
Prov. 10:13
Prov. 13:24
Prov. 22:8
Prov. 22:15
Prov. 23:14
Prov. 26:3
Prov. 29:15
Isa. 9:4
Isa. 10:5
Isa. 10:15
Isa. 10:24
Isa. 14:29
Isa. 28:27
Isa. 30:31
Jer. 10:16
Jer. 51:19
Lam. 3:1
Eze. 20:37
Eze. 21:10
Eze. 21:13
Micah 5:1
Micah 7:14

Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 26, 2007, 10:55:14 AM
Hello Mrs. Sandy,

Greetings Fear God,

Welcome to the community. 

I believe that when God instructed parents to "beat" the unruly child with a "rod" He has in mind a very specific "rod."  This "rod" is one which will deliver our child's soul from hell.  Since spanking with a literal rod will not deliver a child's soul from hell, I believe God is not telling us to "beat" our children with a literal rod.  There are a good number of verses in Scipture that tell us corporal punishment in some measure is not against the law of God, but these passages on "beating" with a rod should not be used to support the opinion that God commands us to spank our covenant children.

You are correct in saying that God commands us to "beat" our children with a rod of instruction in His Word.  This is how beating will drive the child to the fear of the Lord, a Godly fear, a saving fear, and deliver his soul from hell.  This is NOT spanking!  Spanking is sometimes a necessary part of child rearing, and serves a useful purpose in a strong willed child, but spanking too, as Lori has already said should be used to show the child his/her sinful heart, and need of a forgiving Lord.  I just cannot find any verse of Scripture where Christian parents are commanded to literally beat, with a literal rod to save the child's soul from hell.  And spanking too should be used with great care, always remembering our desire is to expose the sinful flesh and drive our child to the love of the Lord, so spanking should not be used without inclusion of the "rod" of instruction. 

I am not saying anyone here does this.  But, have you ever stopped to consider that spanking the child without the "rod" of instruction could actually be taking the easy way out?  Someone here even said something like, "spanking is over quickly, it (I assume spanking) brings home the point, and clears the air."  Not true with "beating" a child with the "rod" of instruction.  It takes time, an abundance of patience, never ending prayer, beside study and understanding of Scripture ourselves in order to train our children.  None of which can be done quickly, but rather takes mountains of time, and leaves little time for self.

Many Blessings,
Sandy           
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Sandy on February 26, 2007, 11:47:04 AM
Greetings He Leadeth Me,

Welcome back to the community.  I looked up some of the verses you mention having to do with the "rod".  They seem to show this word "rod" is most definately speaking of a very specific "rod".  Thank you for showing me confirmation from the Word of God that when God commands us to "beat" our chldren with the "rod" He is not referring to a literal rod which most certainly can kill the child, and will have no effect in delivering the child's soul from hell.  Used without Christian love a literal "rod" could in fact cause great harm to a child both physically as well as psychologically.

Many Blessings,
Sandy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on February 26, 2007, 10:24:37 PM
This thread has been more or less hijacked, and common sense and reason have pretty much gone out the window since the non-issue of "spanking only" was introduced by Sandy. 

There seems to be the need by some to needlessly and unproductively complicate the obvious, or convolute those things that have aleady been plainly stated.

If you want to talk about such nonsense as the measurement of the 'rod' for 'beating' a child, or if you want to introduce unrelated Scriptures like "an eye for an eye", or if you want to discuss other non-issues which amount to child abuse (which no one, much less God condones), then please start your own separate threads on those topics.


Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  


judy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on February 28, 2007, 05:15:32 AM
Here is a woman (a christian mother) who spent time researching biblical meanings of words on spanking in the bible. She was able to confirm (with the help of 3 Jewish rabbis who know translating Hebrew) that the bible does not condone spanking.

http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

Title: SPANKING?????
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 29, 2007, 03:03:59 PM
I was reading an article on spankings and why you are not suppose to do it.  This is what they wrote tell me if you are in agreement or not and why.


6. HITTING IS ACTUALLY NOT BIBLICAL
Don't use the Bible as an excuse to spank. There is confusion in the ranks of people of Judeo-Christian heritage who, seeking help from the Bible in their effort to raise godly children, believe that God commands them to spank. They take "spare the rod and spoil the child" seriously and fear that if they don't spank, they will commit the sin of losing control of their child. In our counseling experience, we find that these people are devoted parents who love God and love their children, but they misunderstand the concept of the rod.
Rod verses - what they really mean. The following are the biblical verseswhich have caused the greatest confusion:

"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him." (Prov. 22:15)

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." (Prov. 13:24)

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." (Prov. 23:13-14)

"The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother." (Prov. 29:15)

At first glance these verses may sound pro-spanking. But you might consider a different interpretation of these teachings. "Rod" (shebet) means different things in different parts of the Bible. The Hebrew dictionary gives this word various meanings: a stick (for punishment, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.). While the rod could be used for hitting, it was more frequently used for guiding wandering sheep. Shepherds didn't use the rod to beat their sheep - and children are certainly more valuable than sheep. As shepherd-author Philip Keller teaches so well in A Shepherd Looks At Psalm 23, the shepherd's rod was used to fight off prey and the staff was used to gently guide sheep along the right path. ("Your rod and your staff, they comfort me." – Psalm 23:4).

Jewish families we've interviewed, who carefully follow dietary and lifestyle guidelines in the Scripture, do not practice "rod correction" with their children because they do not follow that interpretation of the text.

The book of Proverbs is one of poetry. It is logical that the writer would have used a well-known tool to form an image of authority. We believe that this is the point that God makes about the rod in the Bible – parents take charge of your children. When you re-read the "rod verses," use the concept of parental authority when you come to the word "rod," ratherthan the concept of beating or spanking. It rings true in every instance.

While Christians and Jews believe that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God, it is also a historical text that has been interpreted in many ways over the centuries, sometimes incorrectly in order to support the beliefs of the times. These "rod" verses have been burdened with interpretations about corporal punishment that support human ideas. Other parts of the Bible, especially the New Testament, suggest that respect, authority, and tenderness should be the prevailing attitudes toward children among people of faith.

In the New Testament, Christ modified the traditional eye-for-an-eye system of justice with His turn-the-other-cheek approach. Christ preached gentleness, love, and understanding, and seemed against any harsh use of the rod, as stated by Paul in 1 Cor. 4:21: "Shall I come to you with the whip (rod), or in love and with a gentle spirit?" Paul went on to teach fathers about the importance of not provoking anger in their children (which is what spanking usually does): "Fathers, do not exasperate your children" (Eph. 6:4), and "Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will be discouraged" (Col. 3:21).

In our opinion, nowhere in the Bible does it say you must spank your child to be a godly parent.

SPARE THE ROD!There are parents who should not spank and children who should not be spanked. Are there factors in your history, your temperament, or your relationship with your child that put you at risk for abusing your child? Are there characteristics in your child that make spanking unwise?

Were you abused as a child?
Do you lose control of yourself easily?
Are you spanking more, with fewer results?
Are you spanking harder?
Is spanking not working?
Do you have a high-need child? A strong-willed child?
Is your child ultrasensitive?
Is your relationship with your child already distant?
Are there present situations that are making you angry, such as financial or marital difficulties or a recent job loss? Are there factors that are lowering your own self-confidence?
If the answer to any of these queries is yes, you would be wise to develop a no-spanking mindset in your home and do your best to come up with noncorporal alternatives. If you find you are unable to do this on your own, talk with someone who can help you.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on May 29, 2007, 08:05:50 PM
Isn't it amazing what the human mind can come up with, given enough time, reasonable rationalization and humanistic incentive. How wonderfully we are made, "and" used both for good, and for evil.

Who wants to bet that I can't give a dissertation on how the bible doesn't really say homosexuality is a sin, or that the bible doesn't really say women should not rule over men in the Church, or that the bible doesn't really say the world was created in 7 literal days, or anything else I put my mind to debunking. And you can bet that after I'm done (if I do my job well), by sun down I'll have a hundred people saying that it was very interesting and that I've make a good point! That's because they are looking for excuses not to accept what is written.

 That's the way of the world. And woe unto them that fall into it. Which pretty much means most of the Church these days.

Just my two cents (Sorry Pearson)  :)
Title: Re: SPANKING?????
Post by: Betty on May 30, 2007, 10:46:36 AM
I was reading an article on spankings and why you are not suppose to do it.  This is what they wrote tell me if you are in agreement or not and why.


Yes, I'm in agreement with it because it takes a very intelligent approach to scripture and doesn't hold to the fundamentalist and reformed idea that physical abuse will fix problems.

The Bible does not support abusing children by spanking, why Christians would want to be so violent, I cannot fathom. Why is it ok for Reformed theologians to say the Bible teaches child abuse, but it's not OK for these other authors to say that the bible doesn't really teach the abuse of spanking.

Spanking is wrong, it's as simple as that. In the Hebrew language, the definition for shebet is a kind of stick, like the staff or sceptre. It's not for beating children, and nowhere in scripture does it show you are to beat your child with it.
 
The rod is about protection, not beating.

And as for that story in this thread about a child in the super market cursing his mom, that has nothing to do with proving a child should be spanked. Any kid can be bad, and spanking only makes matters worse. You use violence, you get violence.


Title: Re: SPANKING?????
Post by: Pamela on May 30, 2007, 11:15:51 AM
I was reading an article on spankings and why you are not suppose to do it.  This is what they wrote tell me if you are in agreement or not and why.


Yes, I'm in agreement with it because it takes a very intelligent approach to scripture and doesn't hold to the fundamentalist and reformed idea that physical abuse will fix problems.

Who said that the fundamentalists and reformed people believe in physical abuse?  We believe in the bible.  Spanking, and abuse are two different things.  One is for correction, and the other is for release of some kind of stress with the intention to HURT that person.  One is for good, the other for evil. 

Quote
The rod is about protection, not beating.


No Betty, the rod is for correction....

And the definintion of "rod" in hebrew is:

7626. shebet
Search for H7626 in KJVSL
jbv shebet shay'-bet

from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, i.e. (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan:--X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.


I don't see anything about protection, but lot's about correction, punishing, ruling...ect 

We don't punish our kids because we hate them.  We do it because we love them.

Proverbs 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

But the one who spareth the rod, hates his son.  Why?  If you don't correct him in time, he will be in danger of doing something much worse than any spanking could ever do, that could endanger his life.  We "should" love our kids enough to spank them.

So again, it has nothing to do with beating, but correction.  This is true love.




Title: Re: SPANKING?????
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 30, 2007, 01:05:37 PM
The Bible does not support abusing children by spanking, why Christians would want to be so violent, I cannot fathom. Why is it ok for Reformed theologians to say the Bible teaches child abuse, but it's not OK for these other authors to say that the bible doesn't really teach the abuse of spanking.
You are right it doesn't teach us to abuse, but it does say beat/spank with the rod.  Some people feel that spanking is a form of abuse some don't.  Like me.  I will spank my child but never in anger, I will spank my child but only with my open flat hand on her butt,and I will always explain why I did it and tell her that even though I had to do it it doesn't mean that I do not love her.  When I was a child I would have given anything to of had my punishment in the form of a spanking.  Instead I got worse than a spanking. 

Spanking is wrong, it's as simple as that. In the Hebrew language, the definition for shebet is a kind of stick, like the staff or sceptre. It's not for beating children, and nowhere in scripture does it show you are to beat your child with it.
 
The rod is about protection, not beating.

An article I read the other day stated something that I have not been able to completely verify, although I have seen it repeated in numerous other places. What it said was that a Shepherd would break the leg of a sheep that refused to stay with the flock. To keep the lamb from wandering off and being killed by wild animals the Shepherd would break its leg and then bind it up. While the lamb healed it was totally dependant on the Shepherd for everything. When the flock moved the Shepherd would carry the lamb on his shoulders. Two things happened because of this broken leg. One was that the lamb was not physically able to wander off. The other was that the lamb would grow to trust and love the Shepherd while it healed and when the leg had totally healed the lamb would not want to leave the Shepherd's side any more.

Now we know that David, before he became King was a Shepherd. And we know that he wrote Psalm 51. It is thought that he wrote Psalm 51 after being confronted by Nathan the prophet over his adultery with Bathsheba. I want to look at one verse of Psalm 51:

Psa 51:8  Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice.

Now the article I read stated that the author felt that David was referring to a Shepherd's breaking of a leg bone in a wandering sheep, when he refers to the bones that God has crushed. As I said I can't verify that this is what is being spoken of here, but it makes sense. And I believe it is consistent with God's character.
It was explained that this was a sheep that was always wandering off, and in the process leading other sheep astray. Membership in the flock carries certain responsibilities, and much as the shepherd feels a real affection for his animals, discipline is the only thing that will keep them together, as they must be kept together for their well-being and their safety.

God loves us and I believe He will do whatever it takes to try to keep us close to Him, including breaking our leg, or giving us some other problem to deal with that makes us more dependant on Him.

So let us echo David's words, 'the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice'


>>>>>
being broken
Psa 51:17  The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Every day at twilight, a good shepherd will count his sheep. If one is missing, he will go out to find it before night falls. The shepherd will notice if the same sheep is gone night after night, for that little lamb is developing a very bad habit. After this happens several times, the shepherd will go looking for the sheep as usual, but this time he does something unusual.

He will pick up the tiny wandering sheep, firmly holding it with one arm while at the same time positioning his solid staff against one of the sheep’s legs. Then with a swift and strong motion, he will snap the little lamb’s leg with the staff.

Why would a caring shepherd break the leg of a harmless sheep? How could a committed shepherd do such a cruel thing? Author and speaker Haddon Robinson provides the answer: “Back in the fold the shepherd makes a splint for the shattered leg and, during the days that follow, he carries that crippled sheep close to his heart. As the leg begins to mend, the shepherd sets the sheep down by his side. To the crippled animal, the smallest stream looms like a giant river, the tiniest knoll rises like a mountain. The sheep depends completely on the shepherd to carry it across the terrain. After the leg has healed, the sheep has learned a lesson: It must stay close to the shepherd’s side.

"To break the leg of a poor, defenseless sheep seems almost vicious—unless you understand the shepherd’s heart. Then you realize that what seems to be cruelty is really kindness. The shepherd knows that the sheep must remain close to him if it is to be protected from danger. So he breaks the leg—not to hurt it—but to restore it.” <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I also wanted it stated that I would never break my childs leg.  I do not condone abuse but spanking is not abuse. A rounded fist in the face is abuse but a (meaning one) slap on the bottom is not.




Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 30, 2007, 01:26:04 PM
Another article


Lessons In Affliction

I shared that to encourage you with this, Dave explained to me something that I hadn’t known about shepherds and I'll share with you now. If a shepherd happens to have a lamb that is prone to wander and just doesn’t seem to stay with the rest of the flock, he will break one of its legs. This might seem cruel at first but as you consider what happens next you will see that this is actually a great act of kindness. For you see, as this lamb recuperates the shepherd must carry the helpless lamb in his arms as he feeds it and cares for it etc. When the time comes that the leg is healed you can imagine how this lamb, having to be totally dependent on the shepherd, never leaves his side again because it now knows who truly takes care it.

Maybe now this will help you come to see “thorns in the flesh” and “fiery trials” in a whole different light. The next time you read in Psalm 119 – Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word (v.67), and I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me (v.75; see also–Ruth 1:21; Job 30:11), the lesson God the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us here will be clearer. This type of true biblical teaching is nearly nonexistent in the self-centered seeker sensitive purpose driven “instant” Christianity of the Evangelical emerging word faith postchurch in postmodern amorous America today, too heavily influenced as it is with Robert Schuller’s new reformation of man-centered theology.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 30, 2007, 01:40:47 PM
http://www.prophecyupdate.com/john_chapter_10.htm

is another article of where the sheperd breaks the sheeps legs

I do not agree with pics pasted in this site or all of it's teachings, I like to read though, and I wanted to show where I have seen the statements of sheperd's breaking the sheep/lamb's leg.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Messenger on May 30, 2007, 11:37:07 PM
Quote
You are right it doesn't teach us to abuse, but it does say beat/spank with the rod.  Some people feel that spanking is a form of abuse some don't.  Like me.  I will spank my child but never in anger, I will spank my child but only with my open flat hand on her butt,and I will always explain why I did it and tell her that even though I had to do it it doesn't mean that I do not love her.  When I was a child I would have given anything to of had my punishment in the form of a spanking.  Instead I got worse than a spanking. 


Rebekahsmom,

Whether you spank a child with your hand on the butt or with a stick what different it is?

Well I dont think that we must misunderstand the rod of correction to say that the rod is for protection or guiding sheep. Our human minds also say that this is physically abusing a child but what can parents do for small children who learn to abuse,raise hands on elders,not listen to do do right thing but act rebellious?

How will you deal with such children? What according to you must be done to define the rod of correction? Say you tell them in love not to do this but yet they in rebellion purposely do this knowing that my parents will not spank me.

Doesn't God chastise us with His rod of correction when we sin against Him

 Ps 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

We cant chastise our children spiritually as God does so I think we must discipline them physically in love and not anger so that they don't do it again.

 Pr 13:24 ¶ He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

 Pr 26:3 ¶ A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Are not horses whipped if they go in the other direction and you want the horse to go in the direction you want to or to speed up,you would use a whip , isn't it or will you tell the animal in love "see honey I want to go this way,please listen to me as this is the right way". Will that animal listen or will the whip work for it?

Similarly children are not mature and are like animals and tend to do things that are grevious and wrong like beating other children or elders. Abusing, making mischief causing destruction to others and yourself and your home? Will you speak in love which we must try and if they dont listen will you leave that child saying it;s God's will that my child is abusing or causing destruction so I accept it and leave him alone in his foolishness becoz I am a christian and I cant spank my child.

Messenger
Title: Re: SPANKING?????
Post by: Reformer on May 31, 2007, 08:48:50 AM
I was reading an article on spankings and why you are not suppose to do it.  This is what they wrote tell me if you are in agreement or not and why.


Yes, I'm in agreement with it because it takes a very intelligent approach to scripture and doesn't hold to the fundamentalist and reformed idea that physical abuse will fix problems.


Why do you always misrepresent what Christians believe? And it is not a very intelligent approach to scripture, it is a very rebellious approach to scripture. What you call intelligence, God cals the wisdom of the world. Where so-called Christians forsake what they have been taught for the principles of the world. Post modernism!

 Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Quote
The Bible does not support abusing children by spanking, why Christians would want to be so violent, I cannot fathom.

This is another tactic of the liberal Christians and social engineers. But spanking children is not child abuse.


Quote
Why is it ok for Reformed theologians to say the Bible teaches child abuse, but it's not OK for these other authors to say that the bible doesn't really teach the abuse of spanking.

It's the difference between us saying we should receive what the bible says, and them saying we should not receive what the bible says. One is faithfulness, the other unfaithfulness. And again, it's not child abuse. That tactic only works on the simple minded.


Quote
Spanking is wrong, it's as simple as that.

Good thing your word is not law. Yet!


Quote
In the Hebrew language, the definition for shebet is a kind of stick, like the staff or sceptre. It's not for beating children, and nowhere in scripture does it show you are to beat your child with it.


As with all this type of unfaithfulness, this is totally untrue and unfaithful to scripture.

 Pr 10:13  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

Here we have established the Rod is for beating those who have no understanding and does whatever they want, regardless of law.

 Pr 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
 
 Here it is established that the rod is for the children, and should be used because the parent "loves" them. It's for chastening him sometimes.

 Pr 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Here it is established that this rod is for correction children with foolishness in their hearts, that the child will learn from it and not disobey anymore. And there are more. But (excuse my frankness) people like you aren't interested in what the bible says, but what the social engeneers say. But God's word proves you wrong, and proves your statements false. This "making the child violent" is all nonsense. First of all, these authors, social scientists, libberal philosophers and others, have no business telling Christians how to properly raise their children! This isn't a welfare state. 

I'm well aware that many wonderful christians have differing opinions on this issue. But as you can see from the passages that I laid out for you, (and I could give many others if you would like), those that say spanking is not biblical are going against what God says. It doesn't line up at all with what scripture teaches. If you don't want to spank, that's your business. But neither you nor anyone else has the authority to preach that it is wrong. The scriptures use of the word clearly referrs to disciplining your children by striking. There can be no mistake from the context, because scripture says that to strike your child with the shebet for correction will not kill him, and commands that it be done. This doesn't imply that we are to use that as the only disciplinary action, or that we are to violently beat kids, but it does clearly indicate that it is a method that must be used when appropriate.

And yes, spanking is both about protection and correction because correcting is protecting just as surely as other uses for various types of rods protect in other ways. Punishment, including spanking, chastizes a child and steers them away from danger. And the bible is very difinitive that the danger that it steers them away from is hell. What you believe completely disregards the scriptures, such as the ones I provided, that specifically refer to parents using it to discipline their kids. Don't bother giving me links of authors or text from philosophers, because I am a Christian, and the text I rely on is the Bible itself. Unlike the liberal church, I don't need to read five books by human authors to convince me the Bible is misunderstood, I have the one book written by God and I am already convinced it is true and we should "remain" faithful to it.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 31, 2007, 09:31:53 AM
Quote
Quote from: Messenger on May 30, 2007, 11:37:07 PM
Quote
Quote
You are right it doesn't teach us to abuse, but it does say beat/spank with the rod.  Some people feel that spanking is a form of abuse some don't.  Like me.  I will spank my child but never in anger, I will spank my child but only with my open flat hand on her butt,and I will always explain why I did it and tell her that even though I had to do it it doesn't mean that I do not love her.  When I was a child I would have given anything to of had my punishment in the form of a spanking.  Instead I got worse than a spanking. 


Rebekahsmom,

Whether you spank a child with your hand on the butt or with a stick what different it is?

Well I dont think that we must misunderstand the rod of correction to say that the rod is for protection or guiding sheep. Our human minds also say that this is physically abusing a child but what can parents do for small children who learn to abuse,raise hands on elders,not listen to do do right thing but act rebellious?

How will you deal with such children? What according to you must be done to define the rod of correction? Say you tell them in love not to do this but yet they in rebellion purposely do this knowing that my parents will not spank me.

Doesn't God chastise us with His rod of correction when we sin against Him

 Ps 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

We cant chastise our children spiritually as God does so I think we must discipline them physically in love and not anger so that they don't do it again.

 Pr 13:24 ¶ He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

 Pr 26:3 ¶ A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Are not horses whipped if they go in the other direction and you want the horse to go in the direction you want to or to speed up,you would use a whip , isn't it or will you tell the animal in love "see honey I want to go this way,please listen to me as this is the right way". Will that animal listen or will the whip work for it?

Similarly children are not mature and are like animals and tend to do things that are grevious and wrong like beating other children or elders. Abusing, making mischief causing destruction to others and yourself and your home? Will you speak in love which we must try and if they dont listen will you leave that child saying it;s God's will that my child is abusing or causing destruction so I accept it and leave him alone in his foolishness becoz I am a christian and I cant spank my child.

Messenger


I do not think you understood my post.  I said I will spank my child. BUT not only that I will explain to them why I did it

I was raised always to respect your elder "Yes ma'am No ma'am". My mom would back hand you if you interrupted, talked back,and or pitched a tantrum to her or any adult speaking.  We got a spanking for lies(this included hidding toys under your bed and saying your room was clean), theivery(I stole a rubber ball from a dollar store), and hitting my two brothers even though they were bigger than me, ect.   You got put in a corner standing for hours for not doing your job around the house, but then it changed when she got married for the 3rd time.   
My mom was in the military so she went off for two weeks at times and we dreaded those week because we were left alone with him.

But anyway all that in the purple I thank my mom for doing.

So I know the difference from abuse and a spanking.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Pamela on May 31, 2007, 09:32:19 AM
Reformer said:

Quote
And yes, spanking is both about protection and correction because correcting is protecting just as surely as other uses for various types of rods protect in other ways. Punishment, including spanking, chastizes a child and steers them away from danger

I stand corrected.  You are right Reformer.   The "rod" is both for correction AND protection.  Not spanking or disciplining a misbehaving child, is not protecting them, but enabling them to harm themselves and others.  

Pam
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 31, 2007, 05:09:25 PM

I would like to register a dissenting viewpoint. My girlfriend told me you needed some help over here, and from reading this thread I can see that you do. For some sound advice on proper christian treatment of children, you can find some good articles here.

http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

There is a pettition with over 500 signatures that I hope many of you will sign against corporal punishment in the absuse in spanking children. How some people can think that is Godly, I don't know. There are lots of scriptures against this travesty of beating children. I do hope that you will consider them.

I read the story on the Lessin Spanking. I can see why you see spankings as abuse.  One I would never strip my child down naked to spank.  I would spank my child with my hand and not an "instrument".  That way at the same time I know how hard I am spanking my child because I will feel the sting of it on my hand. 
The bible does call for correction, and I will use it when necessary. 

 Pr 10:13  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.

 Pr 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

 Pr 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Just wondering can any one tell me what the word betimes means in the Bible I have searched but have found no definition of what it means.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 31, 2007, 08:02:18 PM
I found out what it means  :)

betimes = shachar  shä·khar' = seek early, seek, diligently seek, betimes, misc 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Melanie on November 13, 2010, 02:30:08 AM
I read the story on the Lessin Spanking. I can see why you see spankings as abuse.  One I would never strip my child down naked to spank.  I would spank my child with my hand and not an "instrument".  That way at the same time I know how hard I am spanking my child because I will feel the sting of it on my hand. 
The bible does call for correction, and I will use it when necessary. 

Well, I would like to voice a dissenting view also. My mom was spanked by her parents with a stick from a tree they called a switch. And it was hardly abuse. If it wasn't abuse then, then it is not abuse now. I think people are taking this child abuse thing way too far with calling everything abuse. my mom even said her teachers were allowed to paddle them with a big board, and she didn't think that was abuse. Clearly, this country is changing, and I am not sure it is for the best.  I read of a woman who was forced to go to social services in order to keep her kids because she screamed at them and neighbors reported it. They claim this could constitute verbal abuse. So now, you don't even have to hit your children to be labeled abusive.

But the worst part, half the Christians I talked to said they thought it was the right thing to do. I'm beginning to feel like an outsider, because people look at me like an alien when I voice such opinions based on scripture. And I'm talking about the Christians.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Robert Powell on November 20, 2010, 03:54:57 AM
Well, I would like to voice a dissenting view also. My mom was spanked by her parents with a stick from a tree they called a switch. And it was hardly abuse. If it wasn't abuse then, then it is not abuse now. I think people are taking this child abuse thing way to far with calling everything abuse.

  Shhhhhhhhhh! Don't speak too loudly, don't want to offend anymore Christians, but I agree with you.  ;)


Quote
my mom even said her teachers were allowed to paddle them with a big board, and she didn't think that was abuse.


Mom?  Oh, I'm dating myself :P  But yes, this was normail a few years ago. ...that is to say, what I call a few years ago  ;)

And funny, no one I know grew up to be an axe murderer because of it. And even if they did, they would have grown up to be one anyway. Paddling had nothing to do with it. People are always looking for excuses. But let me stop, lest I be accused of being a horrible Christian for thinking about beating those cute little kids, or teaching them that hitting is good.  ::)

 Proverb 23:12-14
 "Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

When reading this thread I hear, "how dare you make God say that." I guess I'll be accused of the evil of waxing nostalgic (which I am) now, or even reported to the thought-Police. Hey, condoning beating kids, I might even lose my job over saying something like that. It's the new world we live in.


Quote
Clearly, this country is changing, and I am not sure it is for the best.

I'm sure it is not for the best. But I am in the minority. Because I accept God's word over Dr. Feelgood.


Quote
I read of a woman who was forced to go to social services in order to keep her kids because she screamed at them and neighbors reported it. They claim this could constitute verbal abuse. So now, you don't even have to hit your children to be labled abusive.

Are you surprised? If God were to allow this world to continue much longer, I'm sure you would have the government telling you what you have to teach your kids, what you can and cannot feed them, and have the ability to throw you in jail if you give them a soda. So you shouldn't be surprised. That is the direction people take when they don't have God in their lives. They feel the need to play God and control everyone when they can't even control themselves.


Quote
But the worst part, half the Christians I talked to said they thought it was the right thing to do. I'm beginning to feel like an outsider, because people look at me like an alien when I voice such opinions based on scripture. And I'm talking about the Christians.

No, you're talking about the great number of people who call themselves Christian. Yeah, now I'll get blasted by Christians asking, "who am I to judge?" Like you, I'm sick of it. Outsider? That is the truth. It is sad but true, we are outsiders, the Church and most Christians are a whole different people anymore. They live like the world, they walk like the world, they talk like the world and yet they want us to believe they are not of the world. Well, my Mother always told me if it walks like a duck, and talks like a Duck... You know the rest.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Granny on November 20, 2010, 11:03:23 AM
Quote
my mom even said her teachers were allowed to paddle them with a big board, and she didn't think that was abuse.


Mom?  Oh, I'm dating myself :P  But yes, this was normail a few years ago. ...that is to say, what I call a few years ago  ;)



 you're dated? What about me ;)
   It's like Tony said, the Church has been brainwashed by the the world to think like the world. And they don't even know it. I guess they think that God either didn't know what He was talking about, or that it was written for a different time, or that we are to interpret it to mean something other than hitting. baby boomers, the new Christians. I agree, that is the mind that is Christianity today, and it is a sad state of affairs.

 PS, I think everyone over 50 got whup'ns at one time or another.  And like you, I don't know anyone who grew up hating their parents for it.  Kids today will hate and disrespect their parents if they so much as deny them money for a car, new sneekers each month because their pair has some dirt on it, or even money for tattoos.  Yet to believe what you hear on TV, we're the generation that hates our parents or grew up dysfunctional because we were abused. Please, wax nostalgic all you want. Don't pay any attention to these drifters. It is always nice to hear that there are others who think this is Lunacy.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Herman Stowe on November 21, 2010, 02:59:36 AM

   It's like Tony said, the Church has been brainwashed by the the world to think like the world. And they don't even know it.


 No argument from me. Look at the proliferation and acceptance of sexual promiscuity, pride, homosexuality, undisciplined children,  tattoos, unfaithfulness, irresponsibility, other gospels, women ministers, racism, idolatry, using the Lord's name in vain, divorce and remarriage, mean spiritness, reviling, vanity, gossip, lack of honor -- I mean the list is a mile long with no end in sight. Unlike Lot, Christians can live comfortably with anything these days.

 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 This is how the Devil works. He has man believe that he is his own God, to make his own rules. Why do you think Christians believe that spanking is not good? this belief is only recent. So why? Isn't it because they reject God's counsel on the subject for the counsel of modern men? Isn't that why we have all of this unfaithfulness everywhere in the first instance? Because man wants to be his own ruler, his own God? Isn't that why we have so many Christians here whose words are smoother than butter about love and nice-ness, but whose tongue is a sword when it comes to accepting God's word? People don't care what God says anymore, they get their counsel from educators, from the people on TV, from the doctors and psychologists. It is a whole new mindset.

Should We Spank Our Children? Just the fact that the question has to be asked in a Christian Setting is itself testimony to the total deception and unfaithfulness of Christians today. They don't want to listen to God anymore. And they want us to agree with their reasons why they shouldn't.  :'(

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on November 21, 2010, 07:53:16 AM
This again?
   In fact, it is the Christian Fundamentalism in the Church that gave rise to this abuse of children, and so I am not surprised that you feel this way. But I am happy that most Christians don't follow your radical and violent views. I have no doubt that what you reformed and fundamentalist Christians preach is abuse of children, which was one of the reasons I repudiated fundamentalism a long time ago. When you beat your kids, you teach them that hitting is the way to solve problems and to correct others behavior, and that is just not true. For two decades studies have shown that spanking children in any way is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. You can't argue with that. Spanking, which is nothing short of attacking poor defenseless children, is unacceptable! All parents who practices spanking are by definition abusing their children. So the state who is responsible for their welfare should have every right to remove the children from that parent and that abusive environment. Our Lord preached love, not abuse.

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned".

Hard line conservatives ignore such verses that preach tolerance and forgiveness, not hitting. But most Christians don't indulge in this abuse hiding behind scripture.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: meezernine on November 21, 2010, 09:51:51 AM
 :-\

I would post scripture concerning the proper use of spanking with our Children, but this has been testified to over and over again...

Isaiah 44:18  They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Abuse and discipline are two totally different things, as any child of God undertands.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on November 21, 2010, 09:52:46 AM
>>>
This again?
<<<

Does it bother you? The truth, as the light, just keeps on shinning through darkness sometimes. An offense to some, a goad to others.

Matthew 11:5-6

Matthew 13:57

So then we see, it is impossible but that offenses will come. But woe unto them, through whom they come! The truth is an offense, there is no getting around that. God says correct a child this way, man is offended and retorts, no that's not love. Who are we to believe?


Quote
>>>
In fact, it is the Christian Fundamentalism in the Church that gave rise to this abuse of children, and so I am not surprised that you feel this way.
<<<

It is Christian faithfulness that gave rise to receiving the word of God concerning correction of Children. It is Christian modernism that has given rise to modern day unfaithfulness in doing what seems right in their own minds.

Judges 17:6

But we (true Christians) don't do what seems right in our own eyes because we do have a King in Israel, and His name is called The Word of God, and it is this word that has rule over us, not the modern day Anti-christs, Preachers and Psychologists. And though our views cause great offense to misguided and liberal Christians, we serve God not man.


Quote
>>>
But I am happy that most Christians don't follow your radical and violent views.
<<<

In that I believe you have spoken truly. Most Christians don't follow the word of God, which we are merely the faithful witness of. This is the same words of God that you call radical and violent views.


Quote
>>>
I have no doubt that what you reformed and fundamentalist Christians preach is abuse of children, which was one of the reasons I repudiated fundamentalism a long time ago.
<<<

Well, I don't know about Reformed and Fundamentalist Christians, but I do know about carnality, unfaithfulness, mistaking feelings for gospel and doing what is right in our own eyes rather than leaning on the final authority of the word. So did you repudiate fundamentalism, or true Christianity? Did you rebel against Sola Scriptura, or God's unadulterated word? Did you reject Christians so-called abuse of Children, or God's word concerning Godly correction of children? So is it that people have not rejected our words concerning this, but rejected God that He should not reign over them?


Quote
>>>
When you beat your kids, you teach them that hitting is the way to solve problems and to correct others behavior, and that is just not true.
<<<

Spanking is effective for correction. ...or is God a Liar? Which is it? You decide!

Proverbs 13:24

Hates the child? Just what does that mean? Selah.

 Ouch!   Does that mean you? And it seems God defines "love" differently than many professing Christians around here.

Proverbs 19:18

So "Oh, the poor baby is crying" because we hit him doesn't work with God?  That touchy-feely modern Christian, all about feelings just doesn't cut it. God knows it's all about man's own feelings and drawbacks, not for the sake of the child.

Proverbs 22:15

Shall we retort, "Wrong AGAIN God, it only teaches him to be violent?"

Proverbs 23:13

A suggestion or command Betty?


Proverbs 23:14

 Must be doing some good. ...don't you think?

Proverbs 26:03

...hmmmmmmm.

Proverbs 29:15

......Sooooooooooooooooooo. What part of these passages is ambiguous? What part of these passages is subject to private interpretation? What part of these passages is not God's counsel? I know you and modern Christianity want to believe these are our words and not God's, but really!


Quote
>>>
For two decades studies have shown that spanking children in any way is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. You can't argue with that.
<<<

Studies, Smudies. I don't argue with them, God does. And my arms to short to box with God. His word is law as far as I'm concerned. All contrary words of men are as spots in our feasts of charity, clouds without water, carried about of winds, trees whose fruit withereth. No, what I don't argue with is God's unadulterated word of truth. That's what I can't argue with.

Psalms 119:15-16

Have respect unto God's ways, not the ways of man's studies. For right there is the studies that I delight in. The study or meditation in God's word. It is the only study worth remembering.


Quote
>>>
Spanking, which is nothing short of attacking poor defenseless children, is unacceptable!
<<<

Poor defenseless children? Which is better, correct the child by spanking when needed as God counsels, or forebear and allow him to grow up rebellious and end up in Hell. It's not a theory, it is a scenario put forth by God. You are just not listening to God's word. Once again it has been said in this thread before. Are you smarter than God or more knowledgeable about children? Are you wiser than God?

Proverbs 23:12-14

What shall we say then? God doesn't know knowledge? God is giving "BAD" instruction? God doesn't know what He is talking about in declaring we should not withhold this type correction? Shall we babble on about how He's living in the middle ages, He's out of touch with modern day realities? No, it is you and modern Christianity who are out of touch with Christ, the Living Word. And I say that deliberately.


Quote
>>>
All parents who practices spanking are by definition abusing their children.
<<<

Well, if you want to play word games, the world's definition of abuse is to mistreat or treat badly. Whether in punishment or discipline. But the fact is we chasten our children for their ultimate good because we love them. Not worldly love (as in feelings) but Godly agape/benevolence love. And just like the Lord's chastening of us in love for our good, so is our chastening of our children in spanking.

Hebrews 12:11

Proverbs 13:24

So then, your brand of "LOVE" is not God's brand, nor the brand God's ministers preach. But of course, if we are the type of professing Christian who has no use for God's word other than as a paperweight, then what God says on the issue is meaningless, isn't it?


Quote
>>>
So the state who is responsible for their welfare should have every right to remove the children from that parent and that abusive environment.
<<<

No, the state really shouldn't have any such right to remove a child who is spanked by his parents. And so far, generally speaking, it doesn't!


Quote
>>>
Our Lord preached love, not abuse.

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned".

Hard line conservatives ignore such verses that preach tolerance and forgiveness, not hitting.
<<<

Biblical Christians don't ignore such verses, they understand the verse has no bearing on God's counsel that spanking children can be helpful in training up a child in the way he should go. But your scripture quoted out of "context," is "pretext." No scripture forbids disciple of children or spanking. That includes Matthew 5.


Quote
>>>
But most Christians don't indulge in this abuse hiding behind scripture.
<<<

No, the reason most Christians don't indulge in spanking is because they are trying to hide FROM scripture, which is impossible to do. I am delighted to get behind scripture, as it is is my defender, Revelator and spiritual sword. you see one cannot hide behind scripture, because God's word makes everything transparent, so that nothing can hide from it. Not the blind who swear on the altar that he sees the light, not compromise feigning that it is God's love, not the thoughts of the heart pretending that is the thoughts of God, Not apostasy all arrayed in beautiful apparel, and certainly not concern for self masquerading as concern for children. No, there is no hiding.

Hebrews 4:12-13

Those who don't want to ever spank their children do it for themselves, not for the child. Selah! get that part straight first, and the rest may fall into place. Man doesn't know that fact because he deceives himself, but God knows these things. For nothing is hid from His eyes. Every way of a man may be right in his own eyes, but God judges righteously.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dana Pescator on November 21, 2010, 01:24:50 PM

Ditto Tony!

 It all depends upon if we accept God's word or man's word. Isn't it ironic God says spank to correct, and man says no don't do that because it doesn't work, and Christians actually are considering it?  :'(

  I just don't get it anymore.



Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: judykanova on November 21, 2010, 04:52:32 PM
Quote
>>> From Betty:
Our Lord preached love, not abuse.

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned".

Hard line conservatives ignore such verses that preach tolerance and forgiveness, not hitting.
<<<

Quote
From Tony:
Biblical Christians don't ignore such verses, they understand the verse has no bearing on God's counsel that spanking children can be helpful in training up a child in the way he should go. But your scripture quoted out of "context," is "pretext." No scripture forbids disciple of children or spanking. That includes Matthew 5.

AMEN Tony!  Besides worldly misguided studies, the only other defense presented is Scripture quoted out of context, which anyone with a lick of common sense can see -- unless they don't want to or can't see the clear, unambiguous teaching of Scripture in this regard.  One such Scripture given in the article someone sent a link to earlier ( which is full of pretention and misapplied quotes), was "love thy neighbor as thyself".  I know adults who bemoan the fact that they were never held accountable for their actions nor learned restraint when they were growing up.  The prison is full of such people.  

Loving discipline, including spankings is not a contradiction of terms, as some choose to believe.  Teaching children to have with no respect for parental or any authority is irresponsible, unloving parenting which places a child on a path of rebellion.  It stands to reason that such people have greater difficulty accepting the authority of God.  And if they happen to be one of God's own, they will surely be whipped into shape (so to speak) for their soul's sake.  Fortunately God, our heavenly Father -- who is not short-sighted and has an eternal viewpoint, shows such love and mercy (which is what His chastening amounts to) towards all His children.  

Hebrews 12:6
  "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

Malachi 3:3
  "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness."

1Samuel 15:23
  "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

1Corinthians 5:5
  "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."


judy
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on November 21, 2010, 11:49:21 PM
On the no-spanking websites, you will not find a differentiation between correcting repeated willful behavior by spanking and the wrongful oppression and abuse of children by violent, angry, hate-filled adults. There is no doubt that terrorizing children - as the reprobate do - is a wide-spread problem. But the loving parent that corrects a willful child with carefully administered spankings is condemned along side the violent monsters, which of course, is the desired intent - confuse the issue and condemn the innocent with the guilty. There is no effort on these sites to explain that there is a proper and correct way to do discipline by spanking and when done properly there is a great benefit to the child, the family, and the nation.

Why is this? If you look closer you will find that anti-Christian bigotry and hatred for all-things God is the root of the deception. Of course, the Church saw the way the wind was blowing, and joined the no-spank ethic - never being slow not to be chic. Throw in a large dose of moral relativism, which finds no reason to punish as there is no ultimate right or wrong, and we have our dilemma. By what authority can anyone punish? The liberal theology says we are all victims of heredity and environment - we don't need more punishment we need to understaaaaaand the victim.

The liberal looks at society and sees a mess, and say, "look what religion and capitalism has done", we need more socialist federal programs to combat society's ills. In my mind, liberalism is a myopic way of looking at the world that says, "if it feels good it IS good and if it appears unpleasant than it IS bad and must be avoided". It reduces all societal problems down to child-like simplicity. The solution is always to be caring, which feels good and must avoid anything unpleasant - we must not make people sad. No matter the situation under examination - the liberal solution is simplistic and wrong: the outcome is almost always total failure. 

For instance, if there is one poor person with a sign asking for "a little help", the liberal reasons the problem is a lack of money (caused by the rich), but when they have given the money away they find a dozen more bums with signs asking for money. The problem got worse not better. The caring thing is to give them money, a house, food stamps, free abortions, free drugs, free needles, freedom from prosecution, and the result? More poor and more bums with their hand out asking for more 'help'.

Everything the liberal hopes to 'fix', they destroy. In the 1960s a liberal government saw a 'problem' and tried to 'fix' the poor, the minority, the victims of everything 'bad' - and like an anti-Midas, they took brass and silver and turned it into piles of manure. These are the unintended consequences of wrongheadedness. An elite group of liberals wanted to make things better, but instead of success their government sponsored programs incentivized failure - and failure they got in droves.

There's no statistic that shows spanking a child is the cause of adult problems, nor does it cause an increases in crime. What causes crime and lawlessness in general: Simple: It is the perception by the would-be criminal of laxity toward prosecution. When the judgment of criminals is that the likely benefit to them to commit crime is greater than to be law abiding - crime increases. When liberals saw that crime was increasing - the solution was, as usual, whatever solution seemed 'caring' and avoided solution that seemed 'unpleasant' or judgmental. They cried, "crime is the result of poverty" - and so more money was spent to 'fix' the poverty problem - and the problem grew larger.

The statistics are available but ignored. The governmental programs inaugurated in the 1960s drove crime up, out-of-wedlock births up, educational failure up, poverty up, divorce up, the risk of apprehension down, the risk of imprisonment down, abortion up, drop-out rate up, school violence up, single-parent families up, homicides up, rape up, property crime up, violent crimes of all types up, and on and on. Despite the damage, the liberal solution hasn't changed today - they want more tax-payer funded programs, more taxes, more avoidance of any 'unpleasant' solution (which is the only way out) even if it shown to work in trial cases, and more shifting of blame away from the real culprits - themselves.

There is a simple law at work: People will always choose to do what seems to have the best outcome for themselves. If you spank a child for stealing - the child will stop stealing. If you punish criminals for crime the criminal will calculate the risk as being too high and many will stop (the rest go to jail). If you force lazy people to work by cutting off hand-outs they will either work or starve - and starving is not a positive outcome. If you train up a child that there are consequences to negative behavior - even if you fail to explain God as the ultimate reason for obedience (which you should) - the child still learns there is reward for doing right and punishment for wrong. It worked in America for hundreds of years.

Discipline and punishment - with naturally occurring rewards for proper behavior - works  and works every time it is tried. Give people an incentive to obey the law, to stay married, to not kill their children, to not steal, rape, or murder - and lo and behold they'll modify their behavior to receive the better outcome.

We need remove liberal bureaucrats and career politician, liberal socialists, and Marxist wannabes, and modify and/or remove their welfare incentives and burdensome tax laws that destroys economic improvement. We need to end government run education while also ending wasteful federal programs. Most of these 'problems' would dissolve in a matter of weeks or month if critical thinking were applied, and this country would be revitalized.

But here we are: society in shambles, Christianity in shambles, a corrupt governmental system in shambles, morals in shambles, economically all is in shambles, and the solution is to do more of the same. Likewise, Christians more often than not raise up hard-working, law-abiding, productive adults, though they spank their young. The reprobate raise up lazy, indolent, violent but retarded welfare-brats that drain society dry and exhaust the court system and jails - and there is much admiration and sympathy for our little victimized victim-hood of victims.

Spanking corrects bad behavior and teaches there is a negative consequence attending wrong actions. It works - always has and always will. These are things that were borne out of a Christian world-view. The work-ethic, right-and-wrong, morality, law-and-order, chastity, marriage, sanctity of life, discipline, honor, loyalty, faithfulness, good-deeds, responsibility - all things that hearken back to God and Biblical instruction.

The liberal rejects it all - God and His laws - thinking to create a better system - a more fair system of laws, a utopia on earth where God is vanquished. In this utopia everything will be more pleasant and less judgmental - people will live in harmony and tolerance of all things (except God and Christianity). Where everyone is a winner and no one is allowed to lose. Where we are told we must hate the rich, the successful, the entrepreneur - anyone who betters themselves: they get ahead only because they robbed and victimize the poor, or so we are told.

Oh, but how the liberal cries for the mass of down-trodden humanity (they created) - they have convinced the masses they are victims of the success of others. The result of all this is: hatred, fear, devision, mistrust, racism, chaos, poverty, disease, crime, ignorance, and death. The real solutions to the problems they created are rejected out-of-hand. God is out, punishment is out, judging and judgment is out, morality is out, and critical thinking is out.

So, Christian people: Raise respectful educated children that know right from wrong and know how to work - because the rest of society that hates you is depending upon you for support. Oh, and, while you're doing all the heavy lifting for the bums of society, don't forget their winning strategy for life: be ignorant, stay stupid and unproductive, be carnally minded, be jealous and greedy, be hateful and spiteful, blame others for your ills, blame the rich and successful, and yes lest we forget - don't spank.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on November 22, 2010, 08:59:15 AM
  Oh, I see John. So spanking is not abuse if you hit a kid two times, but it is abuse if you hit him 10 times? That is a lot of nonsense! If it is abuse, then it is abuse. Only the amount of abuse is at issue. And Tony, everything you don't agree with is scripture out of context? Judy, how do you love kids by beating them when they make a mistake? That's crazy.

(http://www.wzzm13.com/genthumb.ashx?e=3&h=240&w=320&i=/assetpool/images/07923195435_spanking.jpg)

You see this picture? Is this abuse? Or is this Godly?

Gimplet  was right. You fundamentalist people have your old fashioned nostalgia that you want to think of as the good old days where you beat kids with a stick and called it good. That doesn't work with Christians anymore.

Luke 17:2
 "It would be well for him if a great stone was put round his neck and he was dropped into the sea, before he made trouble for any of these little ones."

Leave the little ones alone. And this is not out of context.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Red on November 22, 2010, 11:04:41 AM
Some men give lip service, that they believe the word of God, while a few show their faith by living by the wisdom found therein.

Proverbs 22:15; 23:13-14; 26;3~states plainly that we must use a rod for the fools back! What is wrong with the picture? Much every way~The boy is as big as the women "spanking him"~she should make him strip off his shirt to his bare skin and use the rod on it. Give him as many as it takes to get his attention on the sin that he has done. He should not take very much, if done properly.

Forget about children. If my yougest son who is now thirty four (the youngest of four, the oldest at forty two) did something worthy of stripes~then he still might get them, not totally sure. THe last time that he received them was at twenty two and married! I know that's is too hard for most of you to accept, but that is your problem and the wicked world that you live in has perverted your way of thinking. He cam to my house with a body piercing and I told him to take it out and he refused~He called ne the the battle ground and I came and WON!

Children should obey their parent until death, if their commands are reasonable and base on the scriptures.

If you disagree with me, then do away with your bibles, for the scriptures support parents over the foolishness that is bound in their heart. My children today show me and their mother upmost respect and are thankful for the way we trained them. They are now training their children the same way.

Red Baker
 
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Puritan Heart on November 22, 2010, 04:18:12 PM
Greetings All,
Having read this thread, I pondered whether or not to add my own story, and decided against it... for the immediate time, anyhow.  Suffice to say, I am wholly in agreement with those comments which testify to the complete and absolute adherence to the Written Word of God! I have however concluded quite emphatically, that the cry of our hearts in these times in which we live should be simply this:  Revelation 22 v 20:  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.  

For those of us who even consider the privilege and honour of being called Children of the Most High God, those of us who long for Holiness and Righteousness, who mourn the outright, blatant 'downtrodding' of the written Word of God, preserved for our admonishing, 2000 years after our LORD and Saviour gave His life for us, can there be any other plea??

Below is just an excerpt from an excellent article written by our Brother Tony Warren relating to the significance of the ''reed like unto a rod'' -   (link to the whole article - tp://mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev11.html) 

It behooves us to take cognizance of the great importance of this divine discipline, IN THIS LIFE, whilst there is still time...

Pardon me if some of this is off-topic.... I thought it was quite pertinent!
A Sister in Christ  :)
Alexandra

Revelation Chapter 11
by Tony Warren
 



    Verse One
"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."       In this first verse we see in the visions of John that a Messenger or [aggelos] gave him a measuring reed, stood, and told him to 'rise,' and measure the Temple, Altar, and the worshippers therein. There are several points to be considered here.

What does the measuring rod represent?
Where is this Holy Temple of God?
Who is to measure?
What is to be measured?
Why did the messenger stand and tell John to rise?
The word stood here is [histemi] which is often used meaning support in the sense, to 'stand by, or with' one[3]. As for example in the sentence, 'he stood with His fellows' meaning He stood in agreement with them, or he stood in support giving his assent with them. Here the Messenger of God has stood, and then instructs John to rise [egeiro] and to measure the Temple of God. Note that it is the [aggelos] that first stood as support and then commands John (who in this signification is a representative of the apostolic body), to rise and to measure these things. This has the added spiritual significance of being a figure of the Messenger of God who 'first' stood, and then commanded His servant to rise for purpose of service to God. In other words, in these visions John is a signification of what the apostolic Church will do, because the messenger of God stood first, and then gave command to rise and to serve. John will make known the revelation God gives him to show the servants and prophets of God what things must come to pass (Revelation 1:1).
This Messenger of God stood and gave to the Apostle John a reed. The Greek word translated reed is [kalamos], and was a stick used by builders for the measuring of distances. Very much like someone might use a yardstick today to measure in yards. And God is careful to tell us that this measuring reed is 'like unto a rod.' This illustrates that it's symbolism is for the rule of a King in correction (as we'll see later in this study). We do not take lightly that the rod was 'given' Him. It's not something which he had, but was that which was given him when the Messenger stood. This Greek word rod [rhabdos] is used in scripture both as a symbol of rule and of correction, and this is the meaning of the imagery here. For example, it's the same word that is used by Paul to the Corinthians:

    1st Corinthians 4:21

"What will ye? Shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
This is illustrative of the [rhabdos] of correction. It is indicating a rod for striking someone in correcting them, as also is illustrated in old testament passages:

    Proverbs 22:15

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of Correction will drive it far from him."
 This rod is for correction[3a]. The reed as a rod which was used to measure in revelation chapter eleven is to show God's scepter is for rule in 'correcting' any deviations in His house, sacrifice or people. This same illustration was seen in the language of Revelation chapter two.

    Revelation 2:27

"And He shall rule them with a rod of Iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken in shivers, even as I received of My Father."

The same Greek word for rod. And again it is used in the sense of rule and the strength of it in smiting or correction. The rod has always been a symbol of rule in the scriptures.

    Psalms 110:2

"The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

    Ezekiel 19:14
"And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, which hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod to be a sceptre to rule. This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation."

This reed or stick we see in Revelation is the rule of God used for measuring the temple, but it is also likened unto a rod to symbolize it is a rod of correction from this ruler God. Correction to those who are His children, whom He loves.        

Proverbs 13:24

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

This is where the old adage 'spare the rod and spoil the child' came from. Correction by the rod is made by those who love their children. Ultimately the reed is like a rod to signify that it is a figure of the 'Word of God' which is the rule of God, the correction of God, and that which 'defines' the exact measurements of the Sacrifice, the Holy Temple, and of the sons of God who worship therein. The Word of God shows the true dimensions and is that which illustrates when we are in need of moving to conform to a standard. The Word is the rule of God intended for everything from discipline, to comparison, to estimation, to evaluation and guidance. The Word is a spiritual rod which corrects us by showing us what is the true form, and thus we see the symbolism here of measurement. It was given John to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. i.e., The Word is the rule of God, the very yardstick against which the Temple body and worshippers therein may be tested for trueness. And this is 'explicitly' shown to be true in an almost identical episode of this command to measure the Temple which is recorded in the book of Ezekiel.

    Ezekiel 40:5

"And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit of a hand breadth: so He measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed."

Again, this language of measuring the Temple of God signifies showing the true dimensions of the Temple. In other words, describe what true form it is. It's synonymous with 'declaring the true God,' for He is the true Temple. When we witness or preach the gospel faithfully, we are declaring God's Temple, that people will know that the house we visualize is in accordance with God's Word. We are showing the people the house of God that they can compare it against the house that they are serving in. And if they are not that very same house, with the very same dimensions or conformity, then they should repent and turn to 'this God' and serve Him in 'this house.' Measuring the Temple is how we check or examine things to make sure we serve in the true house of God. This isn't my speculation or a private interpretation of the passages, it is confirmed thoroughly in the book of Ezekiel. The context of Ezekiel is that He is having the same type visions of God which the Apostle John is having, and when speaking about this measuring, we read:

    Ezekiel 40:4

"And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: Declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel."

God had brought him here to 'see' the dimensions of the house, and then to declare all that he had seen to the house of Israel. In other words, to prophecy again what God has shown him. Then God goes on in this chapter to say that the man of the vision whose appearance was like brass[3b], measured all the exact dimensions of the house, the tables, chambers, etc. He continues measuring in Ezekiel Chapters 40-42, and then in Chapter 43 we read,

    Ezekiel 43:10

"Thou Son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern."

The house of Israel was in rebellion against God, and were defiling His Holy name by their abominations, and God uses this language of 'measuring the Temple' and showing these measurements to them, to signify Ezekiel is to show the congregation this 'true' God. Let them see the true form of God as opposed to whom they have been serving. God says, 'shew this house to the house of Israel that they may be ashamed of their iniquities, and let them measure the pattern that they might see their iniquity in this other house they serve in, and be ashamed. We need to consider this wisely. The reed of measurement signified the rod of correction, the Word, that the people might see their error, repent and be corrected.

    Ezekiel 43:11

"and if they be ashamed of all that they have done, show them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may KEEP the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them".

This house of God is a shadow looking forward to the true form or Temple, which is Christ. Except God's congregation conform to Christ (Romas 8:29), they have need to be ashamed and to repent of their iniquity. God has measured this House (a 'type' of Christ), and revealed the measurements to Ezekiel telling him to declare 'again' this house to the people that they may see and turn from their unrighteousness. So the measuring signified the revelation of God of the true nature of the Temple, and that he should declare it to the people that they might turn from their sin. God is not telling him to measure a literal Temple, because there was no literal temple in the visions he was receiving, he was given a spiritual vision of the 'true' temple to illustrate that the children of God did not conform to it.
This is the same illustration given us in Revelation 11:1. John is told to rise and measure the Temple, the Altar, and those that worship therein. In other words, show the true dimensions of the true Christ, the Altar (signifying the atonement), and His people therein. It is synonymous with declaring or revealing God, His sacrifice, and His children. Let them measure up to the prescribed dimensions that God has set forth, or let them repent that they do not. Let the people examine themselves (2nd Corinthians 13:5) by the form of this house.

The true temple is revealed in verse nineteen of this chapter, after the final trumpet sounds. We read there that the Temple was opened in heaven, and there was seen the ark of the Covenant. This is the Temple John is to measure the pattern thereof that he may prophesy or show it again to the people. A righteous Temple which resides in heaven, not on earth, is what He has seen, and should show. Just as in the preceding chapter ten, God had told John (Revelation 10:10-11) that he must eat the 'little' Book, and then must prophesy it again. He is showing John things, which he must show again to God's servants. As it is written in chapter one, 'The Revelation of Christ, signified (given in signs or symbols) to John, to show things to God's servants that would come.'

The Lord is the Temple, we (believers) are those who worship therein, and Christ is He who was sacrificed upon the altar to make this true worship possible. The Old testament sacrifices upon the altar were a 'type' of Christ's atonement. Hence, the measurement has a relationship to the death and resurrection of Christ, and to God the true builder. Those who worship therein are part of that temple through Christ and are often spoken of as the building stones in that Temple. The illustration being that God is showing us it's 'true' dimensions which can only be realized in Christ.

    Psalms 127:1

"..Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."

The house of God measured is the form of Christ. Revelation eleven tells us who, what, and how these are to be measured. The Temple, the Altar, and those that worship therein are to be measured with the reed like a rod. It is by no means the measuring of a literal Temple (for the believers are 'also' to be measured), but this is signifying the measuring of righteousness for the exhortation and correction of the body of Christ.

The Holy Temple is measured: Imagery of the body or tabernacle of Christ. He is the true Holy Temple of heaven into which only the righteous enter. And being in 'this form' (Romans 8:29) is the only way anyone can measure up, that they can see the Kingdom of God.
The Altar is measured: Imagery of the righteous work of Christ, the 'only' way (Hebrews 10:19-20) to enter and become Holy. Christ was laid on that Altar and his blood shed for His people, and that is what makes those who worship in this Holy Temple 'measured' as righteous, that they can conform to it's true dimensions.
The People are measured: Imagery that those who worship in 'this' Holy Temple are righteous living stones (because they are in Christ, who was sacrificed for them) that they can be measured as inclusive in the Lord's House (Ephesians 2:13).
And let us not neglect that the messenger stood, and says 'rise' [egeiro] (meaning to raise up) and measure these things. It is not that John was laying down, but I believe that this is language signifying that those who measure the Temple of God must be those who are 'risen in Christ' first. Christ is our support, as He is the first risen from the dead. And because He is risen and is our support, we also rise. It is by His power and through His faith that we have ability to conform to His image.

    1st Corinthians 15:20

"But now is Christ risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

    Romans 8:29
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

This very same Greek word rise. And as signified in the symbology of John, when we are called of God to measure the Holy Temple, we also are commanded to be risen up together with Christ, and be conformed to His image. The image of the Holy Temple with exact dimensions. Indeed, that is the only way that we will even have true knowledge of the 'true' dimensions of the Temple of heaven.

    Colossians 3:1-2

"If ye then be risen [sunegeiro] with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

This word risen [sunegeiro] is the two words [sun], meaning together or in union, and of course this very same word [egeiro], meaning to rise up. i.e., we are risen together with Christ, that we set our affections not on earthly temples in worldly cities below, but on the heavenly tabernacle in heaven in the Jerusalem from above. It is the Holy city that comes not with observation or that is observable as being in a specific location in the middle east, but which is Christ in us. Rise up and measure this Holy Temple, and all that is therein, and test ourselves to make sure we truly conform to this image and this house.
So the overview of verse one of Revelation chapter eleven, is that God is illustrating His messenger stood, and gave John a reed. This word stood shows an action of support, just as it did in the episode of measuring recorded in Ezekiel:

    Ezekiel 43:6

"And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me."

It is an action of support. And the messenger of Revelation eleven commanded God's servant John to 'rise' up and measure the true Temple of God. Measure or take an exact estimate of the true temple, of the altar, and of all the worshippers therein. See if they measure up to the form or image of Christ. See if they really are a habitation of God, or are conforming to the image of the beast.

    1st Corinthians 3:16

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

When we have the Spirit of Christ in us, we are measured as part of the Holy Temple. It is not a measurement of literal bricks and stones which were a shadow or 'type' of the true, but symbolizes the measuring of the true tabernacle in heaven, and the true believers who worship therein and who show the true image of Christ.

    Ephesians 4:16

"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

The body of Christ, the Holy Temple of God[4] measured every part. This is why the 'exact' dimensions were spelled out so specifically in the building of the literal Temple in the old Testament. God didn't give us that information just so we might 'literally' build it again, but to 'illustrate' and paint a spiritual picture to us that the Lord has 'exact' dimensions for His Spiritual house, and anything that didn't conform (measure up) to the Lord's commandments or specifications, didn't belong there. The measuring implies an exact calculation of the temple, and those who worship therein.
Not at all unlike the way we use measurement today. If you own property, and you want to know where your land begins and ends, a surveyor will measure it to establish it's true dimensions. Here God is establishing His Church. We see here the spiritual truth that the true Temple is a house whose building and maker is God, and whose dimensions are prescribed 'by Him,' and in which only those risen in Christ can measure up. The reed is 'like a rod' [rhabdos] (meaning God's Rule, guidance and Correction) to illustrate it is the Word of God which defines the measurements of the Holy Temple, and that it is for the correction and comfort of God's people. Like the rod of God's mouth (Isaiah 11:4) symbolizing His Word, the 'reed like unto a rod' that is given John to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein, symbolize His Word. It is the rule or the yardstick against which all houses and doctrines may be tested for true-ness by God's people. It is a rod of measurement, correction and exhortation.

    Psalms 23:4

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

His Rod is our comfort and our correction, and is the reason we know the true dimensions from a false building. This first verse is an illustration of the measuring of a new testament temple building, with people inside being measured, because they are indeed sanctified a very part of it.

    1st Peter 2:5

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

We in Christ are a part of this Holy Temple of God and are to be measured right along with it. For Christ has sanctified or made us Holy. How do we judge to see if we are a fit habitation for God? By this measuring reed. We only measure up if we have been sanctified by Christ. This is just as the shadow illustrated to Israel. The Temple, the altar, and those who worship therein were made Holy.

    Exodus 29:44-45

"And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God."

A promise God fulfilled[5] in the New Covenant Church which Christ instituted by His death and resurrection. By His standing, we rise with Him and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. As Ezekiel, we show the form of the house that people may see and repent and turn to God. We come with the measuring rod by which evidence is seen what are the true dimensions. Only those who measure as the true Temple in Christ, 'are' the true Temple of Christ.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Puritan Heart on November 23, 2010, 05:06:52 AM
To make mention:  the highlights in the article I posted are my own and not part of the original document outlay.

Alexandra
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on April 10, 2011, 11:25:24 AM

I would like to register a dissenting viewpoint. My girlfriend told me you needed some help over here, and from reading this thread I can see that you do. For some sound advice on proper christian treatment of children, you can find some good articles here.

http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

There is a pettition with over 500 signatures that I hope many of you will sign against corporal punishment in the absuse in spanking children. How some people can think that is Godly, I don't know. There are lots of scriptures against this travesty of beating children. I do hope that you will consider them.

I read the story on the Lessin Spanking. I can see why you see spankings as abuse.  One I would never strip my child down naked to spank. 

 It doesn't matter whether you take down their pants to spank or spank outside the pants, it is still violence and abuse. Stop rationalizing beating kids.  If I hit someone with a shirt on is it not the same assault as hiting someone without a shirt? The clothing doesn't matter. You don't own your kids, they are people with rights under the law.

On the question of Should We Spank Our Children, the clear answer is that people should never beat children. That is violence and cruel and unloving. I cannot believe there are so many people here calling themselves Christian who condone hitting children.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on April 10, 2011, 03:38:55 PM
Quote
I cannot believe there are so many people here calling themselves Christian who condone hitting children.  


In reality there isn't anyone here who condones 'hitting', 'beating', or 'abusing' children. The language you and others who are against Biblical discipline use is not meant to engage in any meaningful dialog but rather the opposite. It is designed to paint your opponent as extreme – it is intellectually dishonest and symptomatic of someone who confuses the smoke of emotionalism and fear-mongering with rational and factual discourse.

It is the usual failed attempt to re-frame the debate so that no reasonable person would dare side with the Biblical injunction to discipline a wayward child. Let's not make caricatures of Christians who spank. How often the debate is painted such that Christians who spank must become intolerant despots that beat, hit, and abuse their tiny tots with paddles and whips in their heated rage over every infraction. We are told the result of these 'spankers' is to leave behind children who are mentally and socially retarded and cowering misfits who are doomed to become, because of being spanked, the country's next career criminal and schizophrenic psychopathic killing machine, acting out in rage against the injustice of their damaged egos. And who is going to rescue America from these totalitarian child abusers? Enter the empathetic liberal left that will cure society’s ills through flowers, puppies, and free love.

The reality is that when we love, teach, discipline, and when necessary spank our children the child realizes there is a limit in life that cannot be crossed – that crime does not pay, that siding with evil comes with a high price. Spanking is not the first resort. It is the final outcome of continued willful disobedience - it is performed when clear limits set by the parent are broken and lesser punishments have been ignored.

Consider how our Father deals likewise with us as adults - you rebel and are corrected gently, continue to rebel and you receive a more devastating correction.  In the end you are eternally punished for failure to obey – thus, it is the wise parent that teaches the lesson of life early, as the Bible instructs. Or, you can pretend being a permissive parent is loving (it is cowardice) and leave it to the police to oversee the punishment you were too ‘loving’ to administer.

Do you suppose the prevalent societal depravity we have today with the increasing number of youths and men given to anger, hostility, disrespect toward authority, and violence is the result of too much childhood discipline? Or is it a complete absence of such things in the home.  Why are teens and children (and grown men) angry? Is it because they learned anger from a properly administered corporal punishment as a child? Or, is it because their parent(s) were drunk, drugged, and/or divorced in their self-absorbed pursuit of a me-first attitude which inexorably treated children as unwanted and disposable?

Did they grow up in a chaotic unstructured environment where existence is a free-for-all with child and parent doing whatever is right in their own eyes? A home where broken rules go unpunished or are arbitrarily and erratically enforced so that the home is essentially without standards? The child learns quickly the parent(s) in truth are too self-absorbed, weak, and spinelessness to enforce rules - which signals to the child that the parent(s) couldn’t be bothered with them; it is plain to all that they love themselves far more than the child. The end result is anger – lots of it, and resentment toward authority.

Go to any prison and you will find that the residents there had either violent or permissive childhoods, or both.  In the violent home life, there usually exists a cold despotic wife that fights daily with her cowardly abusive husband (or significant live-in other). Discipline is administered through unfulfilled threats of brutality, followed by screaming and anger, or brutal violence and beatings (that have nothing to do with Biblical discipline). Likely, both children and parents enjoy the pain-escape of drugs, drinking, TV, parties, with a typical disregard for the child’s well-being.

Throw in the mix party-girl single-mothers, divorced fathers on the prowl, live-in lovers, rape, child-molestation, and a nanny-state government seeking to rule over what is left of America’s family structure and you are sure to find angry kids who feel unloved and are often incapable of love or empathy. Our prisons and streets are loaded with the human wreckage that came with the liberal social experiment and its rejection of God. Instead of men we have spoiled adult-children: self-absorbed and lazy, uneducated and uninformed, liberal-minded and hand-out seeking, often vicious and hate-filled, who don’t know right from wrong and care not one whit about anything or anyone (except themselves).

When we obey the Bible – we love our children. We will teach and train them and ensure they understand their limits, correcting wrong and rewarding right, and if necessary administering corporal punishment. We will see our children grow into strong, self-confident, loved and loving adults - because they know their parents love them.

The more we depart from the Biblical model the more society frays and weakens. The more society seeks to solve the problem it created the more it becomes unmoored. So that in seeking answers outside the Bible (which is the only place real answers can be found), the more evil that is unleashed upon society and the greater the toll of human suffering.  

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Jimmy on April 10, 2011, 08:58:51 PM
Well said John!
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on April 12, 2011, 04:47:39 AM
In reality there isn't anyone here who condones 'hitting', 'beating', or 'abusing' children.

With all due respect, that is a LIE because there are many here who will tell you point blank that they do condone the beating, or "hitting" if you find the term beating to strong. Not only do they condone hitting children, they say it is a godly principle. So I don't know where you get this idea that no one condones hitting children. Obviously, you haven't read this thread.


Quote
The language you and others who are against Biblical discipline use is not meant to engage in any meaningful dialog but rather the opposite.

No John, the language you and others who are against truth use, like "Biblical Discipline" in place of "hitting children" is the language meant to hide the fact that it is HITTING CHILDREN. At least the others don't try and hide behind politically correct language like "Biblical Discipline" in place of "hitting children."


Quote
It is the usual failed attempt to re-frame the debate so that no reasonable person would dare side with the Biblical injunction to discipline a wayward child.

Again, you are not fooling anyone. What you mean is the biblical injunction to hit wayward children. you have a nerve talking about someone hiding behind language, you're doing it yourself.


Quote
The reality is that when we love, teach, discipline, and when necessary spank our children the child realizes there is a limit in life that cannot be crossed –

You mean hitting a child causes the child to realize hitting is the answer to life? So let me see if I have this straight. The bottom line of your package of 1 dollar words is that children should be beat or "hit" (or if you want to continue hiding, Biblically disciplined) because this is biblically necessary to cure all the ills of child rearing better than communicating and other forms of punishment. Or as a last resort, "Hit" them. Your belief is that "hitting" children is necessary if we are Christian? And that those who don't believe in hitting a child are somehow not obeying God? That is what you call honest.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on April 12, 2011, 06:00:18 AM
With all due respect, that is a LIE because there are many here who will tell you point blank that they do condone the beating, or "hitting" if you find the term beating to strong. Not only do they condone hitting children, they say it is a godly principle.

Ok, so hear it from a non-politically correct Christian. Yes, you are absolutely right. I do condone parents Hitting or spanking their children. That's absolutely the correct term, and I bear no shame for using it. I condone it, and what's more, so does God. And frankly, I could care less that you, and other liberals like you, attempt to make it a horrible term. And neither does God. Because that's the non-politically correct language He uses.

 Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
 
God says if we beat or strike (Hit) the Child. Because there is no political correctness with God. There is no worrying if some fine Christian might be offended by the language. You have it right. That's exactly what we say. God says if parents strike their child with the rod, the child shall not die from that beating but the parents will shalt deliver the child's soul from hell. But along comes the liberals declaring the language is too harsh for our day, how cruel it is to say that, how callous and unloving a parent would be if they did that. well, I refuse to listen to your babble over the perfect word of God.

Pr 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

And that is what we have today because of the liberals. Children that bring their mothers to shame. children without discipline. Children who don't fear their parents, but their parents them. Liberals problem is, they think that they are smarter than God.

Are you even a Christian? From reading your posts, I would seriously like an answer to that. because if you are not, then what is your point? You don't believe the Bible anyway. And if you are, then how do you explain God's instruction that beating a child may save his soul from hell?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on April 12, 2011, 07:03:02 PM
Quote
No John, the language you and others who are against truth use, like "Biblical Discipline" in place of "hitting children" is the language meant to hide the fact that it is HITTING CHILDREN.

Words have meaning - and that is why you and others use "hitting", "beating", "hurting" - these words are inaccurate because, as you well know, they are divorced from any purpose or context, and as such don’t reflect the true nature of Biblical discipline. That is, if you say "Christians like to beat children" you are implying a purposeless, uncontrolled, violent, ill-tempered attack upon a weaker individual with the purpose of causing physical and emotional harm. No doubt that is your definition as you have used it. It is dishonest to paint your opponent as child abusers. You may want to look up the definition of abuse.

Biblical discipline, which involves hitting, which is what we are talking about, is not purposeless, it is not uncontrolled violence, it is not ill-tempered, it is not an attack upon a child, and it is not to damage a child physically or emotionally. If, no doubt, you say that it is all these - you cannot have any constructive dialog. It is a common liberal means of arguing – vilify the opponent.

Consider - if you said you believed forcing a small child to stay in their room is a respectable form of punishment, and your opponent says you are kidnapping – you are a kidnapper and nothing more, will the conversation proceed any further?

If you say lecturing a small child is a proper corrective action and your opponent says it is a form of mind control - is there any room to continue the dialog?

If you say sending a child to bed without dinner is proper and your opponent says that withholding food is punishable under the Geneva Convention and is identical to the tactics used in a Nazis prison camp, are you going to continue the conversation?

The obvious answer is “No”! – There is no dialog left. And that is how liberals win arguments – they use inflammatory language to silence debate. As far as I can tell you have nothing more to add than the 'discipline is beating and hitting' argument.

I have explained to you that the liberal model of child rearing (and government) has wrecked many generations of children and is responsible for broken homes, divorce, and crime. I contend also that the majority of real abuse is almost entirely in the hands of liberal parents; especially angry unregenerate parents, slimy unmarried live-in partners, empty-headed teenage single-moms, alcoholics and dopers, welfare queens, and those trapped and impoverished by government hand-outs.  

The onus is on you to prove that the real problem facing this nation is loving Christian parents who set firm boundaries and “hit” (as you like to say) their children, to correct unrepentant willful lawbreaking after all lesser means are unproductive. You should also know that the children understand the law and know that they are subject to punishment for breaking the parent’s rules – so there is no arbitrariness or capriciousness in Biblical discipline (“hitting”). Also be sure to address that these children are happy, productive, and live in a well-ordered, safe homes.  

You also will want to answer the post above – how as a Christian do you think your enlightened opinion concerning spanking is preferred over the Biblical model for rearing children:  a position that God endorses?

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on April 13, 2011, 08:43:24 AM
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No John, the language you and others who are against truth use, like "Biblical Discipline" in place of "hitting children" is the language meant to hide the fact that it is HITTING CHILDREN.

Maurice, I couldn't agree more. John seems to want to remove the word from his bible when you use it, while writing how we should all accept the words of the bible.  ::)  That's hypocritical to me. At least Reformer is consistent and calls a spade a spade, hitting, hitting. Even though he doesn't understand what it means, at least he's consistent. John tries to make like it is not really hitting and we are using the word wrong. You've got him figured out.

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John says:

Words have meaning - and that is why you and others use "hitting"

That's the stupidest thing I've heard here all week. Why does God use the word beating or hitting while you try and erase it and chastise us for using it? Is God to be chastised also? I guess we're in good company. You like to follow the scripture, correct?  Except when it says beating or hitting. Here's a quote.

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Reformer says:
 Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
 
God says if we beat or strike (Hit) the Child.

Are you going to chastise God also for using the word hit. Oh wait, He used the word beating. So deal with it. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If God can use it, we can use it.  The question is not if God says hit your children with the rod, the question is what does he mean.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on April 13, 2011, 06:36:05 PM
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That's the stupidest thing I've heard here all week. Why does God use the word beating or hitting while you try and erase it and chastise us for using it?

I don't chastise you and others for using the word "beating" or "hitting"; you are being chastised for using it to pervert what Biblical discipline is - it is your goal to misrepresent it (but yet you continue the charade).

By your admitted definition, anyone following the Biblical model given by God is engaging in nothing more than simply "beating" children, that being the sum total of God's command: Beat children whenever the mood strikes you. With that definition in mind you then feel free to rail how you can't understand why Christian's “beat” their children. This type of argument is both specious and duplicitous (and idiotic if we are going to be plain) - and you both know that it is.

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You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If God can use it, we can use it.

When God uses beating He uses the word to commend it. When you use it you intend to impugn the practice with feigned outrage and horror.

I am not being hypocritical – for I am only qualifying your stark assertion about the nature of Christian discipline and correcting your intentional misrepresentation. However, you and others quote Scripture to prove that discipline involves beating or hitting, but then in the next breathe you deny that anyone should do such a horrible thing to their children. What should we call that other than talking out of both side of your mouth – which you plainly are.

God instructs hitting to correct a wayward child - but is that all God has to say? Has not God given us direction to love, train, mentor, teach, correct, admonish, and even punish in love those who will not repent of their rebellion and wish to continue in disobedience? Indeed He has - and you should acknowledge that this is also how God deals with each of us. You need to acknowledge that there is much more to Biblical correction than simply hitting a child; that corporal punishment is the final step in a long road that involves learning proper parenting, establishing a proper structure in the home, and maintaining a proper relationship flowing from the Father to Christ to parents to children.

So, once more, it is not because you are saying “hitting” that I oppose you but because you have repeatedly insinuated that Christian discipline is a “beating” of children – and nothing could be further from the truth.  Torn from its context, which is your intention, we have police beating Rodney King, prisoners in a concentration camp being beaten, muggers beating a victim, and parents beating a tiny child. You are implying that God enjoys the violent and wanton destruction of human lives by despots – but that you are too enlightened to follow such a horrific practice. This unqualified language has only one purpose – to defame Christians who use corporal punishment.

What does God mean by “hitting” or “beating” a child? You say it is harms the child and no spanking should ever be performed for any reason.  So then if we listen to you then we must oppose God – may it never be! Since God is a proponent of corporal punishment and admonishes us to ensure that we correct children – even by spanking, then your position is simply wrong! God is true and you are not.

But the real question is not does God require spanking – we know He does (as you do also), but what behavior warrants such extreme measures and how should such a corrective action be accomplished, this is the question to ask (assuming you now realize that discipline is different from “beating” – which I sadly doubt and that you take the Bible seriously which I also doubt)  

I’ve discussed the basic framework of Biblical discipline, but if you or someone else who is wondering about it would like to think through what Biblical correction looks like – that would be beneficial to all.

If all you can say is that spanking is just “beating” children then you need to answer the question asked of you in the last two posts: Why do you oppose the Biblical model for rearing children:  a position that God endorses?

 john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: LivingSoul on April 16, 2011, 08:57:42 PM
In response to all of this I just would like to say that there is a difference between smacking the child within the parameters of the Bible and smacking the child outside of the parameters of the Bible.

When the Bible says  Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die., it should not be ignored because 2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Are you then saying that Proverbs 23:13 is not included in this? Please don't be too proud to say that you were wrong, and see the error of your thoughts. Because if you deny this one scripture, you deny the very word of GOD. (We all make mistakes, we all must repent). GOD is not evil just because evil people misuse the rod in anger.

Rather, everything we do should be done in Love.

ABUSE by definition is when you take something you have the right to do or say and use it to your own advantage.
We have the right as parents to smack our children for correction in LOVE.
The minute we smack our children for the sake of quenching our temper/anger or out of exhaustion, then we are abusing our authority as parents/caregivers.

When smacking our children outside of the parameters of GOD's Holy Word, that is when it becomes wrong.

Consider the following:
Is sex wrong?

No, inside of marriage and Yes, outside of marriage.

Therefore:
Is spanking wrong?
No, under the word of God, and Yes, under the cares of this world.

(I am not judging or in no position to judge in case anybody believes me to be condemning) :)
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Stephanie on April 17, 2011, 06:48:27 AM

This sounds all well and good, but where in scripture does it say that hitting a child once on the bottom is discipline and hitting them 5 or 8 times is abuse? You know as well as I do that there is no law in the bible that says once is righteous but three times is abuse. That is man made law, not bible law. So in essence, we could hit our children 10 times and it still not be abuse. Correct? And please don't presume to know my motives for asking that. I would like an honest answer John, Tony, Living soul and Reformer in particular. Because you seem to be teaching that once or twice is biblical discipline, but many more times than that is abuse. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on April 17, 2011, 01:53:09 PM
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Because you seem to be teaching that once or twice is biblical discipline, but many more times than that is abuse. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

The goal of spanking is to reform the wayward child so that whatever form the rebellion has taken it will not be repeated. Each child is different; some children will correct themselves with no more than a stern look from the parent. Others will push boundaries to see what reaction, if any, will be returned by the parent; sort of like T-Rex's probing the fence for signs of weakness. My observation is that a strong-willed child will venture to disobey house rules when the parents are tired, distracted, or in a hurry; it is a calculated to expand personal freedom into unlawful areas in hopes that once the territory is won it can't be reclaimed and eventually seceded to the child.

The Bible does not micro-manage all the details; it gives general rules that the Christian incorporates into practice when combined with prayer and wisdom. Men are to love their wives - to give their lives for them, but how exactly in each instance is that to be demonstrated? We must take all that God says in the Bible and apply it to the situation.  Women are to submit to their husbands as they do to God - are there instances where the proper way to do that requires wisdom? - No doubt there are.  We are to give our lives to God and our wealth is a blessing from God and belongs to Him; so how much should we tithe? Again, there is no prescribed amount in the New Covenant - what is too much, too little - it is wisdom to know, which requires discernment and varies for the individual circumstances we are in.

We see a six year old in the store being loud and disruptive, falling on the ground, refusing to obey the mother who cannot verbally coax the child to join her. What is the correct response? It would seem one or two slaps to the backside would correct the problem and that might be the proper response, but we'd have to wonder why the child assumed such rebellion might gain new territory. Before we use spanking to correct the child it would be wisdom for parents to consider the cause-effect relationship that they may have engaged in that may have led to the showdown in the store. Did they set firm boundaries, do they use lesser means of correction first, where is the father and what relationship does the wife and children have vertically toward his authority and how does the father (if he exists) exert his authority (lovingly or harshly in pride), has the mother been side-stepping the training and disciplining chore during the day in favor of shuttling the job of punishment to the father (so she can win their love by being the good guy), is the mother too strict so as to provoke the children to anger or too lax so as to embellish their natural pride. While spanking may be correct in one situation it might not apply in another.

If parents are spanking a child often, say several times per week, there are probably other factors at play and it is unwise to put all the blame on the child. It is my experience that parents often send mixed signals to children and the ensuing confusion causes resentment that leads to unnecessary behavior problems. For instance, the mother does not enforce the family rules established by the father; when father returns home there is unnecessary disciplining needed to reestablish law and order. The mother blames the children but knows secretly she is advocating her responsibility. Or, state daycare raises the child all day so that neither parent is able to counteract the resentment born by the child and his rightful feelings of abandonment. You cannot spank away the sins of the parents - make the tree upright and the fruit good and the offspring will be likewise.

We should consider that if the mother fights against the authority of her husband, is rude, disrespectful, and unloving the children are much less likely to obey the father too. If the mother resents her husband expect the children to resent their mother (for her sin) and divide over their father (for not correcting his wife - which causes mayhem in the home). Treating the individual outbreak of anger in children without considering the total influence that the parent's bad behavior has is counterproductive. Blaming children for the sin of their parents only embitters them and adds fuel to the fire.

There are many ways parents exasperate problems with their children - there is inattention, dismissing and disrespectful attitudes toward their children, a lack of interest in them as persons, selfish desires that place children's needs last, there is spoiling and coddling and all manner of permissiveness and many other unloving ways parents create the atmosphere that engenders rebellion.  

Knowing the sinfulness of parents, as well as children, it is important for each person to circumspectfully consider themselves first - are they acting in accordance with God's precepts, are the parents transmitting Godly values in words and deeds, are the house rules reasonable, enforceable, well-defined, and understood by all; are punishments for covenant breaking between parent and child known by all, and though the parents feel comfortable to communicate downward do they also receive communication upward from their children (and from the spouse).

So, how many spankings is enough? If all the other factors above have been addressed, and the parent is relatively calm (as opposed to sinful anger and rage due to a hurt pride), and the child has been fairly convicted of wrongdoing (as opposed to rashness or capriciousness by the parent), then the fewest number of spankings that would produce repentance in that particular child should suffice. If the same transgression reappears again soonafter with an unrepentant heart by the child then there is probably something else afoot and I'd suggest thoughtful consideration and communication between parents (privately) and child to determine the root cause before simply increasing the severity of punishment (the root cause may just be you).  


As an aside, here is an interesting and informative look at the corporal punishment argument:  http://www.christian-parents.net/Children/C116_Bum_Rap.htm (http://www.christian-parents.net/Children/C116_Bum_Rap.htm)

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dryfus on April 18, 2011, 05:56:12 PM

This sounds all well and good, but where in scripture does it say that hitting a child once on the bottom is discipline and hitting them 5 or 8 times is abuse?

She does make a good point, since I recall being spanked by my father and receiving anywhere from 3 to 7 hard whacks, and I don't consider any of that abuse. But I'm sure social services would. So who is to judge what is abuse and what is not? Society would say one hard whack is abuse. Others would say any more than three. I would say that 10 might not even be abuse. So who is the judge of what is child abuse. The government? I hope not. As they are the judge of what is abortion and what is baby murder, and they judge unrighteously? I just have to say, I think that's a bad judge. I don't think society should tell parents what is abuse. I guess that makes me the bad guy.


Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: yaboo on April 19, 2011, 10:17:38 PM

This sounds all well and good, but where in scripture does it say that hitting a child once on the bottom is discipline and hitting them 5 or 8 times is abuse?

She does make a good point, since I recall being spanked by my father and receiving anywhere from 3 to 7 hard whacks, and I don't consider any of that abuse.

But I do consider that abuse. And so does most people. You can't just beat or hit kids just because you are the parent.


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But I'm sure social services would. So who is to judge what is abuse and what is not? Society would say one hard whack is abuse. Others would say any more than three. I would say that 10 might not even be abuse. So who is the judge of what is child abuse. The government?

Of course. Doesn't the government decide what is speeding? What is brutality? What is marriage? What is a legal sale? What is rape? And on and on. That's the point. You can't just make up laws yourself and claim the Bible agrees with you. If the government says you can't beat your children, then you can't beat your children. Not even two times or one time if that is the law.


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As they are the judge of what is abortion and what is baby murder, and they judge unrighteously. I don't think society should tell parents what is abuse. I guess that makes me the bad guy.

Yes it does. Do you think a parent who abuses his children should be the one who decides what is abuse? That's crazy. Do you think a man who rapes his little daughter should be the one to decide if that is abuse also? It is the same principle so I don't want to hear about parents rights. The government has to step in. You can't let people decide based on their religion. Or else we would have parents letting their children die because their religion teaches they only trust God to heal or they shouldn't have blood transfusions. You can't have it both ways. We either have religious law or government law.


Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Melanie on April 20, 2011, 06:58:44 AM

This sounds all well and good, but where in scripture does it say that hitting a child once on the bottom is discipline and hitting them 5 or 8 times is abuse?

She does make a good point, since I recall being spanked by my father and receiving anywhere from 3 to 7 hard whacks, and I don't consider any of that abuse.

But I do consider that abuse. And so does most people. You can't just beat or hit kids just because you are the parent.


  Well frankly, we don't care that you consider spanking abuse. We care what the bible says is abuse and what it says is wise for parents to use for correction. Because we don't consider either you, or society wiser than God. In other words, society and the law can say that abortion is not murder. And they do. We don't care because we know that it is murder by Biblical precepts. So it doesn't matter that you or society disagrees. God is our ultimate ruler, not society or you or what the majority of people think.

 1 John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming".

And your analogies are terrible. Rape is a sin, but Parents hitting their children is not. Apples and Oranges.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on April 22, 2011, 08:14:57 PM
So let me see if I have this straight. The bottom line of this package of dime words is that Children should be "hit" (since you Johnny doesn't like the term beat), and this will cure all the ills of child rearing better than rebuking, communicating and other forms of punishment? The Reformed belief is that "hitting" children is necesarry and Godly? Is that correct?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Kyle on April 23, 2011, 03:47:23 AM
So let me see if I have this straight. The bottom line of this package of dime words is that Children should be "hit" (since you Johnny doesn't like the term beat), and this will cure all the ills of child rearing better than rebuking, communicating and other forms of punishment?

No, as usual you choose to distort the Christian view of Godly correction to make it appear injurious.  But using physical discipline is an option that Christian parents have to correct their children, along with all those others you named. We don't limit ourselves to those that "may" be less than effective. And in old days when this sort of correction was the case almost universally in this country, the children were a lot better behaved, more morally and more disciplined. Your way has caused this great explosion of undisciplined, parent disrespecting, God rejecting, violent self centered and spoiled children of today. All because we went away from God's way to the socially acceptable way.

 Poverb 22:15 - "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

The reason we don't deny that (like you do) is because we are Christians and we believe God's word. Apparently, youy think God's word is somehow unwise ands cruel.


Quote

The Reformed belief is that "hitting" children is necesarry and Godly? Is that correct?

The Biblical way is that hitting children YES HITTING is an acceptable form of discipline, punishment and correction.  I know you use those words thinking you can shock people into thinking it is terrible, but remember, for the most part, you are among sound Christians, so words like beat and hit or spank doesn't carry that TV Social sigma that you are looking for. We understand what it is, why it is and why God instituted it.

Proverbs 29:15 - "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

You see, we believe that. While society thinks that is Crazy!  Even as their way is seen not to work at all.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: YourBroNChristJesus on December 13, 2011, 12:00:45 PM
Spare the rod; spoil the child. As many as I love I chasten.

Spanking should never be done with your hand or personal effect. The rod........... switch or like instrument as it is an impersonal and not really reflected back on you. A child will hide the switch and blame it. OK, we humans are not the smartest bunch.

But, God in His wisdom gives us instruction and reason. Don't strike a child with your hand.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Doug Johnson on October 15, 2013, 05:50:41 AM
Trying to catch up on my mail, I can see that you haven't changed your judgmental positions on anything, much less beating children. Which is abuse by the way. Like I said in the beginning, I once believed in spankings. I keep hearing reformed christians say that "it's better to spank children than to let them run wild." But I don't think I believe that. Children remember their beatings at the hands of their parents and it takes years for them to understand how they got to be such timid and withdrawn adults. I'm sure parents did the best they knew how in old days, I had nuns beat me, but it's a new day now with new methods.

I gave up spankings because spankings interfered with my relationships with my children. I didn't want my children afraid of me, I wanted them to feel comfortable with telling me exactly how they felt, even if they expressed it angrily or even with curse words. It's the only way to communicate with them peacefully, solve the problems, and really get to the bottom of their rebellion.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Cecil on October 15, 2013, 09:27:34 PM
In the Bible the word “discipline” means to instruct, train, chasten—including spanking if it takes that to correct behavior. Hebrews 12:11 shows its purpose: “True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness.” Parents are not to be overly harsh in their disciplining: “You fathers, do not be exasperating your children, so that they do not become downhearted.” (Colossians 3:21) Neither are they to be overly permissive: “The rod and reproof are what give wisdom; but a boy let on the loose will be causing his mother shame.” (Proverbs 29:15) Permissiveness says, ‘Do as you like; don’t bother me.’ Discipline says, ‘Do what is right; I care about you.’
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Charles on January 28, 2014, 06:46:41 AM
I gave up spankings because spankings interfered with my relationships with my children. I didn't want my children afraid of me, I wanted them to feel comfortable with telling me exactly how they felt, even if they expressed it angrily or even with curse words.

With curse words? That's not Godly parenting, that's allowing your children to disrespect and dishonor the parent. A violation of one of the 10 commandments. This modern philosophy of parenting goes contrary to what the bible teaches in my opinion.

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It's the only way to communicate with them peacefully, solve the problems, and really get to the bottom of their rebellion.

That's not true. That's not God's counsel, that's the counsel of today's liberals. The only way to communicate with your kids peacefully is to train them up in the way they should be trained, that they honor their parents, rather than curse them. A child who curses at her parents isn't going to be peaceful with them just because they didn't spank them as children or because they spoke softly or gave them everything they wanted.



Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on January 29, 2014, 05:27:40 PM

I don't hit my children, I don't care what the bible says. You have to use your own judgment of what is right and wrong, you cannot depend upon a book.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/08/16/why-shouldnt-you-spank-your-kids-heres-9-reasons/

9 Great Reasons why you should not listen to a book, but common sense.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on January 29, 2014, 09:46:26 PM
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I don't care what the bible says ... you cannot depend upon a book.

No doubt a belief held by a great many professing Christians who do whatever seems right in their eyes and have no interest in God's instruction.

Isa_5:21  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

In this life many will cheer you on ... but at the end of it awaits an eternal woe.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on January 30, 2014, 04:26:10 AM
I don't care what the bible says. You have to use your own judgment of what is right and wrong, you cannot depend upon a book.



Wow! Are you a Christian Maurice?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on January 30, 2014, 04:47:46 AM
I agree we should spank children when they need it.  Back in the days when children received spankings regularly, they were much more well behaved, respected their elders, and were much more pleasant to be around.   The high self-esteem movement of today has so changed our way of parenting.  Parents feel guilty if they even discipline their children anymore.

 :ditto: That's because they are listening to the child psychiatrists and women's talk show and being brainwashed. I agree with you,  in the days when children received spankings they were much more well behaved, respectful and pleasant, but these people have convinced parents that it isn't so. And that it was all a lie and children are better today than ever before. It's all an illusion. What this world needs is to get back to the Bible. That's where we have gone wrong.

 Jeremiah 35:15
 "I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me".

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on January 31, 2014, 01:53:19 AM
Quote
I don't care what the bible says ... you cannot depend upon a book.

No doubt a belief held by a great many professing Christians who do whatever seems right in their eyes and have no interest in God's instruction.

Isa_5:21  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

In this life many will cheer you on ... but at the end of it awaits an eternal woe.

john

John, it's a medical fact that spanking a child causes mental health symptoms according to medical studies. Do you think God would want that? Or is it a better chance that you have misinterpreted scripture? But if you want to lower their self esteem, teach them that hitting is OK and create long-term psychological problems, then do as you will.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on January 31, 2014, 01:56:58 AM
  Parents feel guilty if they even discipline their children anymore.

 :ditto: That's because they are listening to the child psychiatrists


And what is wrong with that? These people have spent years studying this problem, if anyone knows the effects of beating children, they are the ones who would know. I was never spanked and I believe that is why I am so well adjusted and non violent. Children who are hit, hit others.

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Wow! Are you a Christian Maurice?

Did I say I was?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on January 31, 2014, 10:31:49 PM
Quote
John, it's a medical fact that spanking a child causes mental health symptoms according to medical studies

No Maurice, you are wrong. That study cannot make the connection between hitting and psychological problems later, it is assumed that the cause was because the parents involved hit their child. A closer examination would have revealed it wasn't just the hitting but rather a pattern of ill-temper toward the child, a lack of patience demonstrated a lack of love, which is born out of a pronounced self-centeredness that looked upon the child as a bother and communicated that the child was unloved and unwanted. The manifestation of anger followed by hitting is not Christian discipline nor is it biblical spanking in any form; it is typical of a secular society that is preoccupied with self and pleasure, where children that cause trouble or extra work are despised by the parents.

Now, you will almost never find the anti-spanking crowd call spanking anything but "hitting", which is meant to infer that Christians believe that it is loving to hit or punch a child at will in order to force compliance. There mantra is "spanking is hitting", which is not true. Of course there are no Christians advocating indiscriminate "hitting" or "beating' but such is the nature of the debate that spanking to correct discipline problems is always couched in terms of abuse (hitting, punching, smacking, swatting, beating, etc.)  Their argument is a false caricature meant to elicit an emotional response - and so the debate on one side is always framed as "you want to beat your children".

Neither is the Christian position that spanking is the first or only remedy - as it is usually the last. Neither is spanking done out of an emotional response by the parent, as was the case in the study. Parents who hit out of hurt pride - via anger or embarrassment are behaving in the manner that teaches the child they are unwanted and if repeated often enough will yield deeper behavioral problems as the child rebels more against the parents’ mishandled authority. Those parents are not disciplining (teaching or training) their child they are bullying their child - and intimidation is not Biblical discipline.

If you believe that it is wrong to spank, then don't spank, no one is going to condemn you. But don't pretend that what God instructs is rubbish and you have discovered a superior child-rearing method. Don't delude yourself. There are plenty of children reared in a liberal home where not only was spanking never used but neither was any real form of discipline. The parents felt they were being noble by letting the children raise themselves unchecked, but in fact these parents were just cowards, and lazy cowards at that. The result is a generation of spoiled, self-centered, slothful, unproductive, lawless, arrogant, violent teenagers and adults. They were not spanked, and also they were not disciplined, and thus they felt they were not loved (and they weren't) - and so they too grew to rebel against authority.

So, the key is discipline properly administered with the goal of correcting and educating the child. When a child knows their limitations and those limits are enforced fairly -- though the child may not say it they appreciate their parents’ punishment, whatever form it takes, because they know they are loved through it. Studies have found that children actually are happiest when boundaries are defined and enforced, and the children themselves are glad their parents punished them, even corporal punishment, when and if it was needed. Not at the moment, but later when they reflect on their rebellious acts and that their father cared enough to stop them from going down the wrong path, they respect their parents all the more.

But, if you are one of those "spanking is a crime" people, you should know you are not arguing against man but God. For He also disciplines those that He loves fairly and justly for their disobedience -- just as He instructs parents to spare not the rod for their child's wicked acts - there is a hierarchy of discipline. The parent is disciplined by God, "spanked" if you like, and likewise the parent must raise up their children to learn obedience too. If all it takes from God is a slight negative outcome for the parent to repent - then that is all God uses. But, if you insist to rebel you will find your punishments increasingly more severe and cascading into something of near unbearable proportions. That is how God works. That is how parents are also to work. Why?  Because we love them.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Bunyan on February 01, 2014, 09:47:57 AM
  Parents feel guilty if they even discipline their children anymore.

 :ditto: That's because they are listening to the child psychiatrists


And what is wrong with that? These people have spent years studying this problem, if anyone knows the effects of beating children, they are the ones who would know.


No, to Christians God is the one who should know. And God, as opposed to psychiatrists who think they know everything, says this is what we should do.

 Proverbs 23:13-14
"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell".

So for Christians, the only question is who is really the authority over them? Is it God or is it man? God says correct with the rod. Man says, no that's a bad idea, supposing that they are smarter than God. If you are not a Christian, we understand why you would  choose man's conclusions over God. But as Christians, we have one ultimate authority. One who we answer to.


Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on February 17, 2014, 05:53:21 PM
So let me see if I have this straight. The bottom line of this package of dime words is that Children should be "hit" (since you Johnny doesn't like the term beat), and this will cure all the ills of child rearing better than rebuking, communicating and other forms of punishment?

No, as usual you choose to distort the Christian view of Godly correction to make it appear injurious.

So you're saying no Christian has injured their child by beating them, thinking that was good? People have been beating kids for years under the cover of the bible.


Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on February 20, 2014, 09:16:42 AM
So you're saying no Christian has injured their child by beating them, thinking that was good? People have been beating kids for years under the cover of the bible.

Sounds like it. Most Christians use to beat their children back in the 30's and 40's. Hopefully "MOST" of them have wised up and don't want to end up in jail.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformed Baptist on February 20, 2014, 04:24:54 PM
So you're saying no Christian has injured their child by beating them, thinking that was good? People have been beating kids for years under the cover of the bible.

Sounds like it. Most Christians use to beat their children back in the 30's and 40's.


And for the most part, the kids were better off for it, believe you me.


Quote
Hopefully "MOST" of them have wised up and don't want to end up in jail.

Jail is better than capitulation. Yes some of them are cowards and spineless, I'll grant you that. And the rest are in bed with the world and have capitulated. But there are still a few left who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. A few who still hold the Bible over the opinions of social workers, laws and rules of men. And we can thank God for that.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on May 28, 2014, 06:46:44 AM
So you're saying no Christian has injured their child by beating them, thinking that was good? People have been beating kids for years under the cover of the bible.

Sounds like it. Most Christians use to beat their children back in the 30's and 40's.


And for the most part, the kids were better off for it, believe you me.


 :amen:

Quote
Quote
Hopefully "MOST" of them have wised up and don't want to end up in jail.

Jail is better than capitulation. Yes some of them are cowards and spineless, I'll grant you that. And the rest are in bed with the world and have capitulated. But there are still a few left who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. A few who still hold the Bible over the opinions of social workers, laws and rules of men. And we can thank God for that.

 :BibleRead:  :word:  :iagree:  :GoodPopst:  :amen:

 My kids got spanked and I'm not in jail. Praise God. We haven't fallen that far. ...yet!

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on September 13, 2014, 02:26:06 PM
My kids got spanked and I'm not in jail. Praise God. We haven't fallen that far. ...yet!

I just read on the news that a football player got arrested last week and is facing jail time for hitting his child with a switch. So you might have spoken too soon. I bring this up because I was actually hit with a switch by my mom growing up, and I don't consider it abuse. A switch for those of you who don't know is like a little tree branch with the leaves removed. It's not a stick. I'm just wondering if the government should be getting involved in parents spanking or switching their kids. I don't know anything about the case except what I read, but isn't this opening a pandora's box where pretty soon no spanking at all will be allowed?
Or maybe I'm wrong and some of you agree with it. I am just curious to know what you all think?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Stephanie on September 13, 2014, 05:50:30 PM
This thread should be deleted because it encourages child abuse. You can't find justification for beating children anywhere in the bible. And don't give me that spare the rod passage because that's your interpretation of the verse.

And Mila, if you are talking about the running back for the Minnesota Vikings, Adrian Peterson, then he should be prosecuted because he committed a criminal act by hitting his child with a switch. That's child abuse. You really shouldn't hit kids at all. And that's why he faces child abuse charges. The child had marks from the switch on his backside and legs.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: yaboo on September 14, 2014, 12:23:29 AM
There's nothing worse than abusing a child, and beating them with a switch is like caning in the Muslim world. Are you saying Christians are no better and their god tells them to do the same thing?

 Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would approve of beating children, except maybe Tony, Reformer and a few other religious fanatics. But  god says it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Nuff said!
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: bram on September 14, 2014, 03:13:07 AM
 Yaboo,

I don't think you used luke 17:2 right. It doesn't talk about beating up your child physical.

luke 17:1, Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Its talking about to lead astray a child of God.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on September 14, 2014, 08:23:30 AM
Yaboo,

I don't think you used luke 17:2 right. It doesn't talk about beating up your child physical.

Its talking about to lead astray a child of God.

It does apply because Jesus talks about offending little children and how very bad that would be for them. To quote Tony "You can't make a scripture not say what it says".

Unless of course, you just don't like that it says don't offend the little ones.

Anyway, back to the point Yaboo was making. I also find it hard to believe that you people would condone beating children with a stick or switch or rod as you claim the bible says. God says it were better for you that a millstone were hanged about your neck and you cast into the sea, than you offend his children. Funny how you take things literally until it doesn't agree with your philosophy.

 Luke 18:15-16 "And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God".

Jesus loved children. Show me one passage where he beat children?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on September 14, 2014, 08:32:10 AM
Or maybe I'm wrong and some of you agree with it. I am just curious to know what you all think?

You are wrong and a lot of us agree with it. The only thing is, most are too afraid to post that they think you people are barbaric for fear of being condemned. But I do not fear you or those like you who will beat innocent children under the guise of bad interpretations. Further, show me one example where beating has helped anyone. Show me one test. One scientific study.

 John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you".

That includes the children he loved.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: bram on September 14, 2014, 11:39:03 AM
It does apply because Jesus talks about offending little children and how very bad that would be for them. To quote Tony "You can't make a scripture not say what it says".

Betty, If you are right then what John is saying in 1 John 2;1
is only meant for Johns little childeren.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The worse thing that can happen to anyone is that God says, "I do not know you!" To be  cut off from the fountain of life. That is what we have to fear for our childeren, more than beating.

Luke 12
 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.




Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Stephanie on September 14, 2014, 02:21:53 PM
The worse thing that can happen to anyone is that God says, "I do not know you!" To be  cut off from the fountain of life. That is what we have to fear for our childeren, more than beating.

So let me see if I have this correct bram. You're saying that when Christ says don't harm or offend children, he's not really talking about children, so we can harm or offend them? You're saying God allows the beating of children?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Kirk on September 14, 2014, 05:27:08 PM

No one has specifically addressed Mila's question. Which was,

"I'm just wondering if the government should be getting involved in parents spanking or switching their kids?"

And the answer is no, the government shouldn't be telling us how to discipline our kids. It has overstepped its authority in telling us how we must raise our children. Perhaps it's time to start home schooling our children?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on September 14, 2014, 10:14:40 PM
Quote
But I do not fear you or those like you who will beat innocent children under the guise of bad interpretations.


Neither do you fear God.

This of course is a tired debate, just do a search on this forum.  I see no end to it ... either you trust God and His word or you follow the latest research from psychologists that shows spanking to be detrimental to the well-being of children. Obviously the anti-corporal punishment types are dishonest by labeling spanking as "beating".

Here is the definition of beating:

Strike (a person or an animal) repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them, usually with an implement such as a club or whip.


In other words, they replace what real Biblical discipline is ... with something it is not, and then rail against their straw man. No one involved in proper Biblical discipline advocates repeatedly and violently hitting a child in order to injure them ... yet, that is the claim made by the anti-corporal punishment types will repeat this ad nauseam.

When we compare what the world does to 'discipline' children with what God expects we see the difference. The worldly way is to ignore a child until the behavior becomes intolerable or an undo embarrassment to the parent. Then, in anger, without self-control, without a thought to the 'learning' or reforming of the child's behavior, it is to strike (hard and with a vengeance) to get even with the child. It is the difference between love and hate, and yes this is the common method of discipline used by self-centered, prideful parents who just want the kid to not bother them.

Where did this unloving attitude toward children develop?  Well, let's take a quick look at the world, shall we.  You can legally murder your unborn child while in the sanctity of the mother's womb ... many, many mothers (and husband, live-in lovers, domestic partners, etc.) have taken advantage of this man-made law. Knowing that you can murder your children for any reason at any time, how hard was it for the world to make the next logical jump ... I wish I could still rid myself of my not-unborn child when he/she inconveniences me? Being unable to do that (yet) they strike with revenge upon the child who dares to interfere or bother them yet still.

It is not entirely unheard of for mothers to kill their children, dump their bodies in the waste bin, and go out and party. Some mothers simply have children to increase their welfare payments. Others do it because it is cool and to make their teen friends jealous. While the no-spanking gang is angered by the unraveling of society and the increase in crimes against children (to include incest, rape, child slavery, murder, abuse, and on and on), the don't see the cause as the rejection of Biblical training (in the home, school, and church) but see Christians and the Bible as the cause of these society ills.

Child deaths and injuries are not happening in a vacuum. The destruction of the two-parent family is directly connected. Where the father was the provider and head of the family now it is the lone mother, and her provider is a liberal government with its endless entitlement programs. Divorce is popular, so is shacking up, as is fornication and adultery, as is porn, homosexuality, and every other perversion. With these sins come the consequences of lawlessness: drug use, drunkenness, crime, poverty, disease, suicide, and the widening scope and depth of further perversions, each starting as societal fringe practices but soon becoming mainstream and then applauded as the newest cause celeb.

The same liberals who deplore the damage done to inner-city children under the corrupt welfare state would not condemn the welfare state itself.  It is always someone else's fault ... no one takes responsibility for the present disaster. And out goes the cry for more money, and a bigger state, implementing bigger social programs, which all begets more of the same - pain and death.

So, rather than deal with the reality of undisciplined children who roam the streets looking to strike out at the world (and do every night) or the problem of children disciplined out of hatred by their too-busy parents (or parent), both sinful attitudes working to create violent, lawless haters rebelling against the cruelty they experienced (by being cruel to others). Naturally, those whose views created the societal mess turn against the only solution that would actually restore sanity to society (that's right ... God!, the deity that liberal society is seeking to free itself from). There aren't enough social workers in the world to contain the end result of a lawless culture.

Yet, despite the horror, God is never allowed to speak ... His Laws are labelled an anachronism and God is described as a thug, a hate-monger, a racist, a homophobe, a beater of children, a spoiler of all that is desired by men ... and He is hated ... very much hated.

Where God teaches responsibility for your actions and punishment for your failure to repent the liberal 'judges' that no one should ever judge, for who are we to decide, they say. The liberal psychologist says that spanking hurts the child's self-esteem. They reason that pointing out the failures of a child can be emotionally scarring. Why, the liberals have discovered that it is even emotionally unhealthy for children to keep score while playing games; they may feel bad if they knew they lost! That is the world of the carnally-minded psychologist.

So, little Johnny can't read or write but he gets that gold star anyway. Little Johnny throws a ball at recess and hits a girl in the head, the school reacts by banning balls. We dare not punish little Johnny - the blame goes to some external force that causes bad things - he is a victim of poverty, or poor diet, or bullying, or racism, or sexism, or some phobia, or anything (but not his own sin). Little Jane brings a Bible to school and the school reacts by expelling her for three months.

Little Johnny is allowed to rebel and little Janie is punished for conforming (to God). This is how the world moves to encourage evil and punish the good - relentlessly. Violent criminals are released and the law-abiding are punished with more sorrow and death. The worldly mind runs away from responsibility because it hits too close to home - they know all too well they are responsible to God for their sin! All the erratic, nonsensical policies of the left boil down to that one thing - an attempt to escape God's Justice (they seek to hide their deeds from God's punishment, as if these wicked men were able to alter God’s construct of justice by their endorsement of lawlessness. Such foolishness ... as if God was nullified by the antics and pronouncements of men. They can ignore evil or excuse it, but God will not.)

After taking a side-trip through the evil construct that the world operates under, let's see if God is truly barbaric as some say, or if mankind is the deceived tyrant offended by the good that God endorses.

The word of the Lord:

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one whom he loves, and punishes every son whom he accepts.


Do you recognize the pattern that God is using? No? Well, here it is: God is a loving Father and He punishes His children in order to bring them in alignment with His way of proper thought and deed. That is the model God sets up for us. That is our pattern!

Now, you may believe that there are other means to discipline that God uses besides harsh punishment to turn the sinner from his way ... and you are correct. That is why earthly fathers do not spank their earthly children for every cause, but it is not to be dismissed either. Just as God punishes lightly at first and increases the punishment severity with refusal to repent, so does the earthly father (who loves God).

Heb 12:7  Endure it for discipline. God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there whom a father does not discipline?

Chastening, punishment, discipline, learning ... this is the route God takes to correct His children. Who would not discipline a child who is going astray? And here is the rub, if you really love your small child and despite lesser corrections your child continues down the path of lawlessness, then do you love him/her by not spanking, knowing that your other methods are being ignored? In other words, when all the timeouts and loss of privileges no longer have affect, the next proper step is spanking because that is the way God deals with our lawlessness and it is the proper consequence for the actions taken by the child. If your child does not need this level of correction, then great, but if so, then you are under obligation to God to correct the behavior.

Unfortunately, we've all seen the child in the supermarket or church that no longer fears the parent’s threats. That frustrated mother telling her child to stop and the child telling her "no"!  We all know that warnings without repercussions only encourage further rebellion. Some people have compliant children that will obey (more or less) and only need a verbal correction or perhaps just a stern 'look' will do. Others have strong willed child that rapidly go through the non-corporal methods and need to end the rebellion with a corrective spanking. And yes, it hurts the child ... but the message is received: wrong behavior will not be tolerated (by God or parent, which is a good lesson to learn.)

Just as God escalates punishment so must the parent, where necessary. The proper method is the way a pastor chastises a wayward congregant ... first a private warning, then a fellowship of warnings (from the elders together), then if nothing avails - excommunication. How did God work with Israel? The same way! Warnings were given to stop the idolatry, small punishments were brought, and more warnings were given that it would be worse for them if they didn't stop, they didn't stop, and the punishments grew more severe. In the end God simply destroyed a multitude of the rebels and punished the remainder that survived. God doesn't fool around with timeouts (or unfulfilled warnings) when rebellion isn't checked by lesser means.

It isn't too harsh to say that if you fail to properly discipline your children (even to the point of spanking) that you have made your children bastards, for you are treating them as if they aren't worthy of your love. The reality is that this is how children read their parents lack of proper enforcement of rules - letting the child do as they wish proves to the child that their parent really doesn't love them (which leads to further rebellion and testing to see just how little love the parents possess).

Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons. 

Whatever the means of correction, the end game is compliance to the law, whether God's or man's, or both. There is some short-lived grief on the part of the child (and parent too) for corporal punishment, or really any punishment. But the goal that God sets forth is meant to yield righteousness (which it does). Those that understand God's law toward raising children understand that spanking is sometimes necessary, but the goal afterwards is peace toward what is right. It produces righteousness in children who see by their parent’s example the love and discipline that God manifests. This is no small thing.

Heb 12:11 Now, at the time, discipline seems to be a matter not for joy, but for grief; yet it afterwards yields to those who have passed through its training a result full of peace--namely, righteousness.

The parent who allows their child to continue in rebellion does not love that child and treats them with dishonor, as unimportant and valueless. The result will be all the horror stories that we read about, undisciplined children growing into uncorrected adults and continuing their rebellion until either prison, a cops bullet, or some other tragedy befalls them. That is what following the philosophy of the world gets you.
 
Pro 13:24  He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him seeks him with correction.

One last thing. Many are concerned that a spanking administered by a God-fearing husband upon a child will ruin the child when God says the opposite. If spanking is not necessary and a lesser means brings correction then that is best ... each parent should know their child and what is needed (not the government). But the goal is 'learning' wherein the child learns repentance and correction brings them back to God. That is, the offense may be small but the child learns to equate OFFENSE with PUNISHMENT. That is an important lesson. For the reality is that offending God brings a corresponding punishment. Not learning (disciplining) this rule into a child is to training up a child in the wrong way - and should he/she go that way, the end of which leads to death (the first and second).

Pro 23:13-14
Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
You shall strike him with the rod, and you shall deliver him from Sheol.


The husband spanking a child does so because he LOVES that child. He does not "beat" a child for that is a self-centered response out of anger toward someone that you disdain. Granted, this is the way the world operates, but the wickedness of the world does not negate the noble way that God operates. God gave sex for the husband and wife, but the world corrupted it into adultery and porn ... but God's way remains intact. The Christian follows the way intended by God which, of course, yields the results that God intended. The world perverts what is right and receives its reward in sorrow in this life and endless punishment in the next.

So, what would you do to avoid your child straying into the wickedness of the world? Would you dare to correct him/her? Would you dare to spank the child if the grounds demanded it? Or would you pretend that you are more intellectual and better informed about such things and feign that the instructions that God gives are just too barbaric for your refined tastes? Is hell too refined for your tastes too? Is God's punishment on the lawless in this life too barbaric for you? Well, you'd better shake off your "I'll love you just as you are" mentality and realize that God isn't fooling when He instructs parents to raise their children according to His rules. You can equate God-ordained spanking with barbarism, with abuse, with beating, with violence against children, or whatever false accusation you choose to believe ... and yet when we examine the end of rebellious man, we find that all the poo-poohing of God's law as too unseemly will only lead your child to the final punishment that God holds in store for all those who refuse to obey - Hellfire! Hence the reason God implores you not to withhold the rod of correction.

Rev 22:14-15
Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city.
But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it.


Again, if your child can be corrected without spanking then why would you spank? There would be no reason. But if your child will not relent then it is your duty to spare not the punishment due their lawlessness. Simply repeating some lesser punishment that does not work is to disown your children and treat them like bastard children. If you love your children you will correct them - for God corrects His children, so we must do likewise.

Those that adopt the liberal philosophy of the age are spitting in God's face and making man's vain musing the rule for their life (when they forbid spanking). The result will be more of what we already have - lawless and violent children growing up to be depraved adults whose end is in the pit of hell. God uses means and  the means He has chosen is punishment - i.e., pain, the great teacher. Take away pain, pretend you can do whatever you like without consequences, pretend sin can be dealt with by reeducation classes or community service, plea bargain down lawlessness and release the criminal (or terrorist) in hopes your display of good intentions will rub off, inexorably results not in a peaceful world full of unicorns and rainbows but a dark, Satanic, violent world seething in hatred for God (and hating all forms of authority.)

With each cowardly act of forgiving the unrepentant lawbreaker (child or adult, matters not which), the world grows colder, sin grows bolder; the populace increasingly suffers under the oppression by the uncorrected. The law-abiding hide in their homes at sundown, behind barred windows and doors and security systems for fear of the lawless children that rule the night. This is the result of liberal 'love'.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Halle on September 14, 2014, 11:10:41 PM
Kirk, one post you seem to be against spanking of children by parents and the next like you're against government stopping Christians from spanking their children. I'm confused.   :thinker:
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on September 15, 2014, 02:42:51 AM
>>>
So let me see if I have this correct bram. You're saying that when Christ says don't harm or offend children, he's not really talking about children, so we can harm or offend them? You're saying God allows the beating of children?
<<<

Sure he's talking about children. God's word means exactly what it says. But He's talking about the children of God, which are all believers. Not necessarily kids or the very young.

Isaiah 55:8-9

God's understanding, thoughts and ways are not always the same as man's. His definition of Jews, Serpents, Olive Trees, Sheep, Scorpions, Stones, Ancients and yes, Children, is not the same as Webster's dictionary. We are children because we are born of God and He is our Father.

1st John 5:1-2

So that when God calls us His children, His thoughts concerning children are not the same as those of carnal or natural man who will automatically think of little kids. Just as when God speaks of the children of Israel, He's not addressing the people as kids or the youth, but as a "family" with Him being their Spiritual Father. This is quite obviously true. Thus to say when God says children, He must be clearly speaking of little kids, is spurious at best. God could be talking about anything from the people of Satan to the family of believers.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on September 15, 2014, 02:46:11 AM
>>>
I'm just wondering if the government should be getting involved in parents spanking or switching their kids.
<<<

No they shouldn't (unless someone is abusing children), but they are. This is because of the social engineers putting forth their worldly agendas. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that the word of God changes just because society and modern mores and belief systems change. Nor should the church follow suit with compromise and/or nullification of God's word. But the wisdom of the world is more and more becoming the wisdom of the church, where God's instructions are considered unwise, and even worse, wrong.

Proverbs 29:15

We've turned away from the wisdom of God, and as a result are children more respectful, more conscientious, more honoring to parents, more honest and noble? Only in the minds of carnal/worldly men they are. So where is the true wisdom? Is it found in the words of men, or in the words of the living God that I quoted above?


Quote
>>>
I don't know anything about the case except what I read, but isn't this opening a pandora's box where pretty soon no spanking at all will be allowed?
<<<

The box has already been opened. We're pretty much already at the point where any spanking of children might earn you a trip to child welfare services or even the police department, depending upon where you live and who knows about it. Nevertheless, spanking is not child abuse, never has been and never will be, despite any rules and laws that men might come up with declaring it so.


Quote
>>>
Or maybe I'm wrong and some of you agree with it. I am just curious to know what you all think?
<<<

I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure there are a ton of professing Christians who have succumbed to worldly philosophies of child rearing. Personally, I agree with you that it's the government overstepping its responsibilities. Just as it did in declaring that abortion was not murder and that if we forbid marriage between men with men and women with women, it is a criminal act. Nevertheless, we carry on holding high the banner of truth, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among we are commissioned to shine as lights in the darkness of the world. As indeed the Apostle declared:

Philippians 2:16-17

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on September 15, 2014, 02:49:40 AM
>>>
This thread should be deleted because it encourages child abuse.
<<<

On the contrary, it is a witness of the Scriptures destroying any notion that physical correction of children is abuse of a child--if we will receive it. Far from being deleted, hopefully it will remain here for years to come as a testimony against unfaithfulness, twisting of scripture, deceit and dishonesty.

Isaiah 30:10

It is the carnal man that wants God's word removed from society, deleted, hidden, twisted, re-interpreted and taught to "mean" something that it doesn't say. It is the Spiritual man that has an earnest desire to keep (guard from loss) the word and to do the will of God, rather than their own.


Quote
>>>
You can't find justification for beating children anywhere in the bible.
<<<

This is getting redundant here but...

Proverbs 23:13-14

God's unadulterated Word is all the justification that REAL Bible believing Christians need. Moreover, your idea of beating (the contemporary idea) is not what the Biblical word means, which is a stroke. The Biblical word translated beat is the Hebrew word [nakah] and simply means to strike. Whether it's savagely and maliciously or Biblically and appropriately, you would have to add additional words as qualifiers. Your understanding of the word beat in the Bible is very different from Christians who should never beat their children savagely or with malice.


Quote
>>>
And don't give me that spare the rod passage because that's your interpretation of the verse.
<<<

Why Not? Because you don't like what the passage actually declares? We really aren't giving you anything, we are simply bearing witness, or if you will "giving testimony" to what God Said. We aren't giving you anything, this is what God has given to us all.

Proverbs 13:24

No private interpretation on my part or your part is necessary. God specifically addresses the question of those who would spare the rod declaring these are those who don't really "love" that child, while illustrating that He who uses it for correction of his son "do love" the child. That's not Tony, Reformer or others who have borne witness to it. That's God speaking. Now the only reason that anyone would want to privately interpret that as not speaking about physical correction in love, is if they didn't really like what it unambiguously says. That wouldn't be me, that would be you, as delineated in your comment "don't give me that spare the rod passage,"


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on September 15, 2014, 02:52:40 AM
>>>
There's nothing worse than abusing a child,
<<<

Well, there are few things worse. That's why Christians would never abuse their children. The problem in some cases is that most people seldom know the difference between wrong and right because they have no source of truth but themselves.

Proverbs 22:15

The key word here is correction, but unfortunately few know the difference between cruelty and discipline, corporal punishment and injurious punishment, mistreatment and chastisement, abuse and correction. What they do is go by feelings, rather than God's word or intelligence. Their disdain for physical correction is a product not of love, but of the times, emotion and their own vanity.

Proverbs 19:18

Of course, as we've seen time and time again, none of God's word that I'm quoting "word for word" actually means anything to anyone who does not actually look at Him as LORD of their lives. To have someone as your Lord means they are your king or your ruler, your manager, your commander, your master or our common word Boss! If you are going to be your own king and your own Lord, then you set yourself up as your own god, where you make up your own rules and are your own master who judges by what seems right in your own eyes. Nothing new there since the man of sin (man of lawlessness) has been around since Cain slew Able.


Quote
>>>
I find it hard to believe that anyone would approve of beating children, except maybe Tony, Reformer and a few other religious fanatics.
<<<

I guess we're in good company then, as you can add God to that list.

Proverbs 23:12-14

Like I said, it all depends upon whose image you are conformed to, and who is Lord of your life. The Image or likeness of carnality or the image or likeness of the Spirit of the Lord. Conformed to the Image of the beast or of Christ. the Man of sin or the man of righteousness. Because we all can rationalize away what the word of God unambiguously says, but those led by God's Spirit will not.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Stephanie on September 15, 2014, 10:32:51 AM
Proverbs 13:24

    "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."


No private interpretation on my part or your part is necessary. God specifically addresses the question of those who would spare the rod as those who don't really "love" that child, while illustrating that He who uses it for correction of his son does.

So you are saying that Christians who don't beat their children don't love their children?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Stephanie on September 15, 2014, 10:39:30 AM
Neither do you fear God.

This of course is a tired debate, just do a search on this forum.  I see no end to it ... either you trust God and His word or you follow the latest research from psychologists that shows spanking to be detrimental to the well-being of children. Obviously the anti-corporal punishment types are dishonest by labeling spanking as "beating".

Well Tony Warren labeled it as beating so I guess that he's a dishonest anti-corporal punishment type.  ::)

Your response just goes to show how you always make these vast generalizations in your posts lumping everyone who disagrees with you into a certain disparaging category, whether they belong there or not. I know what beating is and I know what you are attempting to do by claiming hitting children with a rod is not beating them. And you call me and other anti corporal punishment types dishonest?



Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Soldier on September 16, 2014, 12:19:00 PM
Well Tony Warren labeled it as beating so I guess that he's a dishonest anti-corporal punishment type.  ::)


It is beating or hitting in order to cause pain and discomfort, but it's not abuse. Not according to God. I received a few beatings as a child. Mine was with a belt by my father.  I deserved them and I'm a better person today because of them. That's something that you liberals cannot understand because you don't believe the truth of the word that has been quoted to you many times.  You obviously think God is stupid to have written such things. You need to check yourself.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: John on September 18, 2014, 01:00:25 AM
Quote
Your response just goes to show how you always make these vast generalizations in your posts lumping everyone who disagrees with you into a certain disparaging category, whether they belong there or not.

You mean lumping everyone you disagree with into a disparaging category using vast generalization like, oh let's see ... describing all Christians as people that enjoy "beating" their children? You mean like that?

As Tony mentioned, the modern day meaning of "beating" carries huge negative connotations, while spanking does not. Thus, the other side only uses "beating" when describing spanking. If we said that the police "beat" someone or a slave was "beaten", we don't think ... probably one or two controlled strikes to the bottom. The word means to 'strike repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them', which is not the God ordained method of child discipline. But you and the rest already know that.

Quote
So you are saying that Christians who don't beat their children don't love their children?

Perhaps you can be more obvious in your dishonesty. How about this: "So you are saying that Christians who don't batter their children don't love ..." 

Or, "Christians who don't pummel their children ..." that is equally disingenuous, but it is a synonym for "beat".

To help you rephrase your question, you are asking if Christians who don't rain heavy blows so as to pound, punch, and thrash their children don't love them?

Well, what did God say (as if it matters to you)? Go back and read my post, God is unambiguous. So, 'yes' if you are a Christian and your child requires spanking to enforce discipline but you refuse, then yes, you aren't seeking your child's highest good. Pretty simple really.

Quote
I know what beating is and I know what you are attempting to do by claiming hitting children with a rod is not beating them

Indeed you know what beating is, and you know that Christians who are obeying God in disciplining their children don't beat (see the definition below), however they do strike or spank their children, that they do.

Definition of spanking: slap with one's open hand or a flat object, especially on the buttocks as a punishment

Definition of beating:  strike repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them, usually with an implement such as a club or whip.

You also know by reading Tony's post (or glossing over it most likely) that the KJV "beating" has absorbed negative connotations today that it didn't possess in 1611. The word means "to strike" and doesn't inform as to light or hard, just the idea of "striking" with an idea for correction.

Obviously if we used your indictment that God wants Christians to "beat" their children, implying "to strike repeatedly and violently” that is with force over and over so as to injure, then God wouldn't add "if thou beatest him with a rod he shall not die."  If God intended the modern usage of "beat" (repeated violent blows from an angry assailant - we just might have a death), which you assert.  However, God is very confident that the outcome is not life threatening. So, taking your assertions at face value we have God foolishly wanting 1) Christians to hammer their children violently with blows just shy of death 2) then claiming such violence isn't anything to worry about because the child will be just fine. Such an unadorned phony attempt to avoid the truth as written by God for the purpose of imparting wisdom to the wise. And you missed it.

You and your ilk probably don't realize how utterly asinine your accusations against God are (and yes they are against God, He's the One you are really fighting, not me). Let's try a bit of honesty. It is self-evident that the reason the child will "not die" is because the striking (Hebrew 'Nakah', meaning to strike) can be done without fear or anxiety over such a thing happening. God knows the child's reaction to discipline but wants the parent to strike (i.e., spank) even over the objections of the child (who is acting like he is dying with all the crying and commotion). God is saying the child may sound like he's going to die, but he's not (God is reminding parents not to be fooled by a child's wailing). So, wisdom says to spank the child (when needed) and enforce the law, man's and God's (and save his/her soul from Sheol by doing so). Couldn't be any plainer.
 

Further, for those that actually read posts and try to comprehend them, the word translated "rod', as in beat them with a rod in Pro 23:13, is the Hebrew 'Shebet" meaning "to branch off", that is, a "stick". I recognize you hoped to poke God in the eye and claim God wanted His people to beat their children with metal rods. I can hear the idiocy now, "Christians like to pummel and beat their children with heavy blows from iron poles, and how Christians can dare to think that violently and repeatedly beating and pummeling their little children with the entire length of a steel flag pole isn't child abuse?"  One wonders how?

Yes, it is collective strategy of those holding unsupported emotional opinions not to deal with issues but to try and foment an emotional response by defining terms falsely with a mind to hide the failure of their position. But making absurd and false charges in hopes of gaining support from the gallery of the uninformed is not a winning tactic. All this arguing over spanking is done knowing full well (one hopes those opposing spanking truly aren't as intellectually dishonest as they appear) that God condones it. In fact He demands it!

So, like so many times before here we are again. People are either pursuing knowledge that God offers in the Bible, or they are playing senseless games trying to circumvent truth. The saddest thing is, the same anti-spanking folks (you know who you are) will be back here in a few months with the identical "beating" language and the same futile arguments in yet another thread.

Just like other revolving topics: divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, fornication, women's submission -- the same drones argue using the same empty rhetoric, recycling failed arguments. Yep, unable to receive truth they assert the same falsities with the same pomposity knowing all the time that their foolishness has been utterly crushed every time by the unalterable word of God. Yet, behold, there they are again, repeating themselves as if their defeat before God never happened. I think something about learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth applies here.

john
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 19, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
 :word: :GoodPopst:
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Diane Moody on September 20, 2014, 08:10:06 AM
Well Tony Warren labeled it as beating so I guess that he's a dishonest anti-corporal punishment type.  ::)


It is beating or hitting in order to cause pain and discomfort, but it's not abuse. Not according to God.


That's the sense that I get from the scriptures also. I don't see how you cannot get that sense from the scriptures. Clearly, it's not just a light tap on the behind. That may be good for toddlers, but not as they grow older. It's hitting to cause pain so as to correct. Some adversity, trials, strife and tribulations are good for you in order to grow. In other words, this type of correction is actually beneficial, not harmful as psychologists would have us believe. Really, look carefully at God's instructions that have been posted here before. Do we really think God doesn't know what he's talking about or that there is any way to make his words not refer to corporal punishment?

 Proverbs 23:12-14
 "Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell".

Not beating him so that he dies, but beating him so he is corrected. God is saying that by beating him he shall be reclaimed from sin, and thus saved from the wages of sin, which is death. God is saying, this is his wisdom, as compared to the wisdom of men. That we should put our children under the chastising rod, so that they do not perish through want of timely discipline. So I agree with the sentiment that all parents who are wise should imitate God's example in his dealing with their children. That doesn't mean regular beatings (abuse), but on that occasion when one is warranted to bring your children back in line with righteousness. And of course, some never will. But that's no reason to call God's counsel a failure.

I see this issue not as one of "does the bible say it," but that so many Christians today are accepting very liberal and unchristian advice, thinking psychologists are giving the better advice for rearing children than God is giving. And isn't that always what brings God's people down? Listening to outside influences rather than remaining faithful?

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Diane Moody on September 20, 2014, 08:26:05 AM
Anyway, back to the point Yaboo was making. I also find it hard to believe that you people would condone beating children with a stick or switch or rod as you claim the bible says.


We don't claim the bible says it, the bible says it. I assume you can read, so you know the bible says it. I'll say it again, I see this issue not as one of "does the bible say it," but that so many Christians today are accepting very liberal and unchristian advice, thinking psychologists are giving the better advice for rearing children than God is giving.

And by the way, the bible word rod means a stick or what we might call a branch or switch. It is an offshoot from the trunk of a tree, Ge 30:37; Isa 11:1. How big it is determines if it is used for correction or as a staff or other large poll.  Like I said, I see this issue as "does the bible say it" or are some Christians attempting to change what it says.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Diane Moody on September 20, 2014, 08:28:50 AM
And Mila, if you are talking about the running back for the Minnesota Vikings, Adrian Peterson, then he should be prosecuted because he committed a criminal act by hitting his child with a switch. That's child abuse.

He might have gone overboard with it and the child was a little young for it, but the rod in the bible is a switch and it is not child abuse no matter what the psychologists (or you) claim.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Diane Moody on September 20, 2014, 08:36:39 AM
I find it hard to believe that anyone would approve of beating children, except maybe Tony, Reformer and a few other religious fanatics.

Oh, you mean the faithful few. Christians who actually take God's word seriously and don't pretend God never said a word about hitting children? Yes, they are few, but with God's help they will continue to be the beacons guiding God's people home.

 I Thessalonians 5:5-6
 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober".

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on September 20, 2014, 02:48:54 PM
And Mila, if you are talking about the running back for the Minnesota Vikings, Adrian Peterson, then he should be prosecuted because he committed a criminal act by hitting his child with a switch. That's child abuse.

He might have gone overboard with it and the child was a little young for it, but the rod in the bible is a switch and it is not child abuse no matter what the psychologists (or you) claim.

Yes, absolutely he went overboard. Still the government had no business getting involved in what was clearly not criminal intent, or making any like-discipline a criminal offense with penalties of spending years in prison. What's next? Spanking?

 The Christian rule of discipline is that first, let them know that you love them and "this" is why you must do this. Second, you never discipline in anger because that is when you go overboard. It should be "controlled" correction. Third, you never beat children until they bleed or are harmed. That's going beyond correction. Fourth, you let them know ahead of time why they are being disciplined and that there is no joy for the parent in doing so.  Fifth, know when to stop. With some children one hit is enough. With others, it takes more. And last but not least, connect with them afterward to verbally reinforce the lesson and show your agony with it and your affection toward them. Too many parents discipline and then act as if they hate them afterward for a week. You can tell them you are disappointed in them, but don't spurn,  show contempt or disparagement afterward.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Lieberman on September 22, 2014, 10:33:27 AM
Reformer,
   I think that the government has to get involved at some point. Otherwise, parents could do anything to their children with impunity. Maybe he shouldn't be prosecuted, but he at the very least should have been warned.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Robert Powell on September 24, 2014, 12:40:37 PM
It is beating or hitting in order to cause pain and discomfort, but it's not abuse. Not according to God.

 :GoodPopst:
In the JFB commentary (one of the best for biblical study) of Pr 23:13, they say that this is plainly teaching that while there is little danger that the use of the divine ordinance of the rod will produce bodily harm, there is the great hope of the Christian for it producing spiritual good health.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Melanie on March 18, 2016, 09:50:18 AM
In the JFB commentary (one of the best for biblical study) of Pr 23:13, they say that this is plainly teaching that while there is little danger that the use of the divine ordinance of the rod will produce bodily harm, there is the great hope of the Christian for it producing spiritual good health.


I believe that is the essence or gist of it.

Proverb 23:13-14
 "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell".

No child is going to die from a spanking, but in abiding in the will of God they may be reclaimed from sin, and so saved from death. As I said before, I thank God my parents spanked me, else I am sure I would have ended up like some of those I rebelliously desired to hang out with.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on March 20, 2016, 06:19:05 AM
 :Question_: Where did this idea of spanking is bad come from anyway? It didn't come from our parents, so where did it come from? And how is an idea that has stood for thousands of years all of a sudden become child abuse?
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on March 23, 2016, 10:12:36 AM
>>>
 )Question_( Where did this idea of spanking is bad come from anyway? It didn't come from our parents, so where did it come from?
<<<

The short answer, mankind's growing enchantment and seduction with and by Psychologists--and I disagree, it did come from parents. Not our parents so much, but the new-age modern parents of today who have totally bought-in to the lines of the Psychologists and social engineers about the proper way of rearing children. As a result, our children are a disgrace to the name Christian. It is the parents today who have not trained up their children in the way that they should go (according to scripture) but have deferred this discipline, schooling and utelage to the words of men.

Proverbs 22:6

When God commands His people to train their children, it is literally instructing them to discipline, to initiate a Biblical dedication to Godly behavior, which to a large degree is what is missing from today's so-called Christian homes.  In Proverb 22:6 God has commanded His people to be committed to the formation of their children's character tomorrow, by training them today while they are young and impressionable. Yet very few Christians (generally speaking) take these words of God very seriously. So yes, it is coming from the parents. It is because they don't really "believe" proverbs 22:6 or the many other passages where God instructs us in the correct way to discipline concerning children. They've fallen victim to the trickery, guile, ruse and deceit of the great deceiver, the spirit of disobedience who is the father of lies. They have washed their hands of responsibility, but it is in vain.


Quote
>>>
And how is an idea that has stood for thousands of years all of a sudden become child abuse?
<<<

It hasn't, but it is perceived as such because of a constant indoctrination and the unfaithfulness of God's people. It is perceived as cruel and abusive because in our day there is a spiritual degradation greater than any before it. It is a declension where no one listens to the counsel of the wise to obey God's word concerning this matter, or any other matter. Instead, in their foolish heart they turn to the words of men for counsel, and that makes "man" himself their god, ruler and king.

Proverbs 12:15

You ask how this is come to pass? The simple answer is because of the spirit of rebellion where people think or believe that they know better than the "actual word of God" what is good and proper to do. No, they won't actually say that, but in practice they believe it. They defer to the words of men "over and above" the words of God because their way seems right in their own eyes. Consequently in their thoughts and estimations the counsel of God seems archaic, obsolete, antiquated, uncharitable and foolish. They are deceived, not realizing that their actions claim for themselves the entitlement, authority and prerogatives of God. They have become as lawless man where they are no longer ruled by God but are themselves the arbiter of law in God's house.

Daniel 7:25

Their thoughts are to change the times and to change the laws, and they refuse to receive the love of truth (or truth in love) that they might be saved. You can witness until you are blue in the face and they will reject God's counsel every time, "choosing" to instead defer to the social engineers, Psychologists, doctors and authors. It is nothing less than a rejection f God as Lord, and  acceptance of man as ruler and potentate.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: R. Anspach on March 24, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
Amen Mr. Warren. They also put forth the idea that if you spank your children, they will grow up to be violent, which is ridiculous. Punishment today is giving a timeout or at worst being sent to your room with your iphone, video games and computer. I have never understood how anyone thinks this is effective behavior control. I'd post scripture but it seems you've already posted every single one and a few I hadn't considered. God bless.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Melanie on December 14, 2018, 08:04:32 AM
So now we cannot even spank our children, even though spanking is legal in all states?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/

This is part of what's wrong with this country. Liberal people with no sense of discipline, training or responsibility. These morons suggest a time out for a spoiled brat acting out who knows even at that young age that all she has to do is tell her teacher and the parents are on their way to jail? This is why so many children in America don't respect their parents or anyone else anymore. It results from the government sticking their noses where they don't belong, and making it impossible to parent in a biblical manner. That is the real threat to a civil and moral society. These liberals don't understand that this is exactly why kids don't fear any kind of authority anymore. Nor do they realize that this disciple now that seems harsh, will serve them well later in heir lives. I'm living proof of that. Government should not be meddling in the way parents raise their children unless there is some "real" physical harm, certainly not for a spanking a angry vengeful kid who has been so spoiled she doesn't know what's good for her. That's the real sin that many Christians also commit in neglecting their God given duty as parents to raise God fearing children who will grow up to be respectful, responsible, contributing adults.

That's my soap box speech for today. Because I thank God my parents disciplined me when I was a child. People are so foolish these days.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on December 14, 2018, 02:58:29 PM
This is not a Christian issue, it is a human being issue. You cannot attack children and think you can get away with it. Spanking is child abuse and should not be tolerated, especially by Christians who love their children. I'm shocked that you Melanie, ecause you are a woman and should understand the evil of beating children. You don't have any children, do you? Because if you did, I don't think you would hold that position.  ]ThUmBsDoWn[
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Doug Johnson on December 14, 2018, 03:44:02 PM
I have to strongly disagree with you Melanie. I once believed in spankings as I grew up in that type of environment, but it simply doesn't work. Just like the child in that story you posted, children remember their father's violent anger and abuse and they visit that same violent beating upon their kids. It's a vicious cycle. I'm sure in the days of the Old Testament parents did the best they knew how with what they had, but it's a new day with new laws and rules and most importantly, children are different. I asked before, how is violence in striking people a good example to set for children. I share the concerns of all those who wish to discuss parenting methods, just as long as they don't include hitting children. I am so glad that unlike the old days, you could be arrested and charged with a crime and do real time for hitting your children. This is going to benefit children Melanie. It hasn't hurt them one bit. Children deserve more than to be violently hit by people twice their size, and especially Christians who should show love and know better that to use violence to teach.

As for Tony's post, he often seems to be living in a different time and society than the rest of us. This isn't the first century.

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Rose on December 14, 2018, 09:19:11 PM

I agree with Doug and Betty. The reinforcement of Christian spanking of children is based on a misreading of a few verses of the Bible. Ministers say that the Bible doesn't endorse spanking, it endorses discipline. I tend to agree with that.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Maurice on December 15, 2018, 04:41:12 AM
As for Tony's post, he often seems to be living in a different time and society than the rest of us. This isn't the first century.

 )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  L O. L.   )GoodPopst(

 I would not like to live in a world where there is no free will, no divorce, children are beaten, women are second class citizens, no sex, and everything is Predestinated where you have no control. This seems to be Tony Warren's world from what I read, not this world.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Jenny on December 15, 2018, 11:05:27 AM
Melanie,
     There is one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is hitting children. That is not being a Christian or caring for your family. Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids. A child should never be struck, period!

Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: aquatic on December 15, 2018, 02:54:45 PM
As for Tony's post, he often seems to be living in a different time and society than the rest of us. This isn't the first century.

 )smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  L O. L.   )GoodPopst(

 I would not like to live in a world where there is no free will, no divorce, children are beaten, women are second class citizens, no sex, and everything is Predestinated where you have no control. This seems to be Tony Warren's world from what I read, not this world.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world”
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: David Knoles on December 16, 2018, 06:20:33 AM
)smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  L O. L.   )GoodPopst(

 I would not like to live in a world where there is no free will, no divorce, children are beaten, women are second class citizens, no sex, and everything is Predestinated where you have no control. This seems to be Tony Warren's world from what I read, not this world.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world”

The kingdom has nothing to do with Tony's doctrines of supporting liberal government's tyranny, striking innocent children, banning divorce, no free will, banning women from teaching church, unnatural abstinence and replacement theology.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: David Knoles on December 16, 2018, 06:33:50 AM
Melanie,
     There is one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is hitting children. That is not being a Christian or caring for your family. Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids. A child should never be struck, period!

Welcome Jenny, we can use a few more right thinking Christians in this forum. Please also consider visiting the Dispensational Berean also

http://dispensationalberean.com

Don't Spank, Think!
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Dan on December 16, 2018, 08:15:38 AM
As for Tony's post, he often seems to be living in a different time and society than the rest of us. This isn't the first century.

 )laugh( I thought I was the only one who was choking on his archaic style and Bible. No, this isn't the 1st century, but I think the tide is turning and more and more people here are realizing that they can't grow with this type of outdated theology. This is why the Amillennial church (and this forum) is dying and the Dispensational church is on lots of TV stations, and is still holding on. The church isn't dying, the Amillennial church is dying, or is already nearly dead.
...like this forum would be if not for
Melanie reviving old posts, and Tony's own repetitive and egotistical posts.  O Well )Shocked_dead(
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on December 16, 2018, 10:12:06 AM
Melanie,
     There is one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is hitting children. That is not being a Christian or caring for your family. Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids. A child should never be struck, period!

I couldn't agree more. If you Tony wants to hit his kids, why doesn't he wait until they are old enough to hit him back. Maybe then they will knock some sense into him.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on December 16, 2018, 11:09:10 AM
 )offtopic(  )rulz( What is this, bash Tony Warren week? Did I miss a memo or something? How about we stay on topic.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: aquatic on December 16, 2018, 04:04:15 PM
)smileyBounce(  )smileyBounce(  L O. L.   )GoodPopst(

 I would not like to live in a world where there is no free will, no divorce, children are beaten, women are second class citizens, no sex, and everything is Predestinated where you have no control. This seems to be Tony Warren's world from what I read, not this world.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world”

The kingdom has nothing to do with Tony's doctrines of supporting liberal government's tyranny, striking innocent children, banning divorce, no free will, banning women from teaching church, unnatural abstinence and replacement theology.

Tony testifies of God’s doctrines and not his own.

Jesus said numerous times that He was not of this world and that He chose a people out of this world. It stands to reason that if He is not of this world and that His kingdom is not of this world, then His laws will be in stark contrast to the laws of this earthly world. And what do you know.... they are. Everything is upside down in this world. What is called good is called evil and evil called good.

God says He hates divorce - the world divorces
God says homosexuality is an abomination - the world loves it
God says women shouldnt teach or rule over men - the world let’s women rule
God says He is sovereign - the world says man is in control

I could go on and on. Everything is backwards...so if you agree with the world you are on the wrong side.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformer on December 16, 2018, 04:47:38 PM
 )amen(
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Terrell Meyer on December 19, 2018, 03:20:09 PM
Tony testifies of God’s doctrines and not his own. Jesus said numerous times that He was not of this world and that He chose a people out of this world. It stands to reason that if He is not of this world and that His kingdom is not of this world, then His laws will be in stark contrast to the laws of this earthly world. And what do you know.... they are. Everything is upside down in this world. What is called good is called evil and evil called good.

That's the truth. I never thought that I would live to see the day when spanking your child could lead to you being imprisoned, but that day is surely approaching, if it's not already here.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Tony Warren on January 06, 2019, 06:44:43 PM
>>>
Melanie,
     There is one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is hitting children.
<<<

So can I "assume" that by this you mean you won't tolerate the word of God that unambiguously declares that hating your children is illustrated in sparing the rod? Or were children different "back in the day?" You surmise that you will show love for your children by not disciplining them physically to drive rebellion from them? So could God's word be incorrect and you have the correct answer that is supported by the modern experts (Romans 3:4)?

Proverbs 13:24

To listen to the voices of modern society, God is so wrong on this because He apparently doesn't understand that this physical spanking will traumatize the child and cause him to become violent. So If "God" Only knew that, He wouldn't have instructed us all throughout the Bible to handle this rebellion of children this way? Am I understanding you correctly? Is this man educating God on the social dangers of parents spanking their kids? What a discomfiting and confused concept today's Christians seem to have about obedience. It is truly sad that the world has so degraded and mankind so corrupted the concept of love, that even professing Christians would believe that what God calls hate in that passage, is actually love. And what God calls love in that passage, was actually demonstrating our seated hate in anger issues and abuse of children. It's the tower of Babel, the building of a tower of confusion all over again. Nevertheless, as a God-fearing Christian I understand His words are not popular, but that also neglect of timely chastisement of children is the "REAL" cruelty, the REAL hatred and the REAL deception of the Devil.


Quote
>>>
That is not being a Christian or caring for your family.
<<<

According to whom? Your own reasoning, Dr. I-Know-Best or the peanut gallery?

God's very plain and unadulterated word in Proverbs 13:24 declaring that physically chastening your child is "love" and caring for your family and that neglecting to do this demonstrates a real hatred of the child, is an infallible word. As far as true Christians are concerned, it cannot be wrong. But of course, if you have no good use for God's unadulterated words, then the point is moot about receiving or obeying it. Lip service notwithstanding.


Quote
>>>
Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids. A child should never be struck, period!
<<<

So God is indeed wrong? The child Psychologist's word against the witness of the word of God in your belief system or hermeneutic, means the Psychologist's word rules? That may be for the carnal, but for the "true" Christian, it's no contest. One is unauthoritative, and the other is supremely authoritative. But as I said before, if one doesn't accept God's word as an absolute and binding rule of law, it's all a moot point. We might as well follow the Spiritualists, worship a cow or be obedient to an Ouija  Board. What our hermeneutic or system of interpretation is, determines our Master? Is it God's authoritative and inerrant word, or is it that society can re-interpret,  re-phrase, re-visit or completely deny what God unambiguously teaches? This is especially a germane question to those who "claim" to take what God says literally.

   ...except apparently, when it's an inconvenient truth that is against their own will to do so. But my God calls that hypocrisy.
 
Proverbs 23:12-14

Mankind retorts against God, "No that's abusive and the reason the child won't do what's right." Man's word of don't strike your child versus God's word of, don't withhold this physical correction from your child? God says because if you beat him with the rod, he shall not die and you shall in that process deliver his soul from hell. So there we have a clear choice here of obedience to God's will versus doing and believing what is our own will. Believe God or believe the world's people whom God calls obstinate and desperately wicked and rebellious. Believe the voice inside man's own head, or believe God's infallible and unadulterated word.

Romans 3:4

The fact is, a tree is known by its fruits. We are known by our fruits or works, not our profession of faith. Our obedience is not the reason that we are saved, but it is an evidence of a changed will and heart. Without fruit the tree is obviously fruitless, and then what good is it?

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Red on January 07, 2019, 09:33:16 AM
 )iagree( All of God's faithful Children said Amen and Amen
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Betty on January 07, 2019, 01:17:56 PM
To listen to the voices of modern society, God is so wrong on this because He apparently doesn't understand that this physical spanking will traumatize the child and cause him to become violent. So If "God" Only knew that, He wouldn't have instructed us all throughout the Bible to handle this rebellion of children this way? Am I understanding you correctly?

I'll tell you the same thing I told Melanie. If you hit your kids in my presence, I will call the police on you. Because the one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is striking children.   
 Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Red on January 07, 2019, 03:07:00 PM
I'll tell you the same thing I told Melanie. If you hit your kids in my presence, I will call the police on you. Because the one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is striking children.   
 Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids.
Betty a wise parent would never discipline their children in public where anyone can pick up on it and when they do so in private, most likely they would NEVER have to do so in public. There're ways a godly and loving parent can use discipline in public that you would never notice them doing so~but we will keep our godly secrets private as we see the children of the world abuse their parents in both private and in public.

Disciple God's way works and is the only means of having God-fearing children for the next generation coming.

Example: One of my grandsons were at Wal Mart with his grandmother  and were going through the check out line and he saw a toy that he wanted and asked for it and my wife said no, and he threw a hissy fit, so my wife just left everything and came home and told me what had happened. Well, we had a little meeting between grandfather and grandson and I'll leave it there. I told my wife take him back there tomorrow through the same check out line and see if he has a changed of heart. So they went and came to the same line and he looked at the same toy and asked his grandmother again in a soft voice could he have the toy and she said no, and he whispered back and said OKAY.

I'll take my instructions from the word of the Living God whose wisdom is perfect concerning all things.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Erik Diamond on January 08, 2019, 01:36:27 PM

Quote from: Betty
If you hit your kids in my presence, I will call the police on you. Because the one thing I don't tolerate from Christians or anyone else, and that is striking children.   Don't try and use the bible to justify abuse of kids.

That statement of yours does show that you do not really want to receive or obey God's Word concerning your children. You prefer to go by some secular psychologists, and progressive social propaganda on love and tolerate, not only in the world but also the CHURCH.  No wondering the church is in a mess as it is.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Melanie on January 08, 2019, 01:58:05 PM
 )iagree( Welcome Back Erik.
Title: Re: Should We Spank Our Children
Post by: Reformed Baptist on January 08, 2019, 08:54:45 PM
God affords no greater two obligations than to love Him, and love the privilege of raising and correcting your child. We should never withhold discipline in fear of unbelievers, social services or people like Betty.

We have our responsibility to the Lord to do what is his will, right up until death. facing reviling by unbelievers is part of being a believer, not something we should fear.