The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: Stan Pat on April 23, 2007, 04:42:36 PM

Title: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Stan Pat on April 23, 2007, 04:42:36 PM
Hi,
  I'm new here as I'm sure you know. I just wanted to ask what you all think about the new church dialogue between Pentecostals and those who hold to Reformed doctrines? Do you think it is productive that we become cozy with them or is this compromise as some have suggested? For those of you who don't know, Pentecostal worship places great emphasis on the workings of the Holy Spirit, who they claim often leads spontaneously and elicits strong emotions in Christians. Beliefs are often accompanied by speaking in tongues and a belief in miracle-working. Should we even be dialoguing with these Churches? A lot of people say we shouldn't. I'm wondering what would be the consensus here.

Thanks and I hope you had a good weekend.


Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on April 23, 2007, 07:33:14 PM
hi

not only would i not get cozy around them i wouldn't get cozy with those gettin cozy with the pentacostals.


1) what these so called prophets fall to relize is tounges is for a sighn for un-belivers

1Cr 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

what is a sighn?

when we see sighns on the interstate, we see one or two then when the exit comes or the reality it is no more sighn.

2) they claim to get on going prophices other than the bible.

Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  

3)they claim two baptism's one of water and one of the Holy Spirt, this two is wrong;

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,  

4) they claim that not only should you not question the "spirit" but if you do it is blasphemhy

thats not what the word of God says;

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 

5) they claim this giberishhh is a holy language and you get it when you get more of the spirt

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

so not only are they not godliy they are turning unto more ungodliness!!

you know what were to do about this?

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.  

6) lieing is an abomination

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


 Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  

that means when you see the apostatcy in your church you get out and flee to GOD

here is a study on the Abomination of desolation

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/abomin.shtml

beacause GOD IS going to bring judgement on the apostate church REV 17-18 and Matt 24

but the falling away ( what you are witnessing ) must come first

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7)tounges and not condeming the act of tounges or mircales is a doctrine of devils

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

and also;

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

those who speak in tounges are against Christ there are anti christ, false christ.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

8 ) they belive they can chose Christ.

when Holy scripture teaches GOD chooses us

Jhn 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  

Jhn 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Hbr 12:16  Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


 Hbr 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

we don't choose GOD he choose him a people

GOD IS going to bring judgement on these apostate churchs you should flee from there not only shouldn't we were commanded not to pray for them

they are saying thus saith the LORD and he never ever did they are liers and decivers but they want decive the elect

2Th 3:3  But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil.

again GOD is bring judgement on these liers, not only these but all who say thus saith the Lord and he never did
hes going to pour out plauges, judgement, death ect so should you be talking to them?


josh
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on April 23, 2007, 07:43:16 PM
hi

not only would i not get cozy around them i wouldn't get cozy with those gettin cozy with the pentacostals.


1) what these so called prophets fall to relize is tounges is for a sighn for un-belivers

1Cr 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

what is a sighn?

when we see sighns on the interstate, we see one or two then when the exit comes or the reality it is no more sighn.

2) they claim to get on going prophices other than the bible.

Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

3)they claim two baptism's one of water and one of the Holy Spirt, this two is wrong;

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

4) they claim that not only should you not question the "spirit" but if you do it is blasphemhy

thats not what the word of God says;

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.  

5) they claim this giberishhh is a holy language and you get it when you get more of the spirt

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

so not only are they not godliy they are turning unto more ungodliness!!

you know what were to do about this?

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6) lieing is an abomination

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


 Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

that means when you see the apostatcy in your church you get out and flee to GOD

here is a study on the Abomination of desolation

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/abomin.shtml

beacause GOD IS going to bring judgement on the apostate church REV 17-18 and Matt 24

but the falling away ( what you are witnessing ) must come first

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7)tounges and not condeming the act of tounges or mircales is a doctrine of devils

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

and also;

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

those who speak in tounges are against Christ there are anti christ, false christ.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

8 ) they belive they can chose Christ.

when Holy scripture teaches GOD chooses us

Jhn 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Hbr 12:16  Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


 Hbr 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

we don't choose GOD he choose him a people

GOD IS going to bring judgement on these apostate churchs you should flee from there not only shouldn't we were commanded not to pray for them

they are saying thus saith the LORD and he never ever did they are liers and decivers but they want decive the elect

2Th 3:3  But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil.

again GOD is bring judgement on these liers, not only these but all who say thus saith the Lord and he never did
hes going to pour out plauges, judgement, death ect so should you be talking to them?


josh
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on April 24, 2007, 12:07:09 AM
Quote
Should we even be dialoguing with these Churches?

(Luk 21:20)  And when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded with armies, then know that its desolation is near (Luk 21:21)  Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them who are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter into it.

(Rev 18:4)  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

I believe God is telling us to come out of the church, so we should obey God - Has the church fallen? Gay pastors/bishops - It's OK to divorce and marry again - Some priest and Pastors that forgive sins - Women pastors - Speaking in tongues - Free will - Rock music in church- Not teaching about hell - Gimmicks to attack people to chruch instead of Gods word -   

(Mat 24:24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Pentecostals ? - speaking in tongues and a belief in miracle working? Free will? Deceived?
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Stan Pat on April 25, 2007, 10:50:42 AM
I don't think it's in our best interests to mix our Churches with Pentecostal Churches because doctrines have to get in the way. I believe doctrine is important. But I am told that I am looking at this the wrong way, and the different doctrines of our churches aren't essentials, as long as we all agree in Christ. So they think I am like a zealot because I think we should hold to doctrines and not mix with Pentecostal Churches. That's the way I think. They think a different way.

From what I gather, they seem to think that the unity of Churches is all that matters. The Pastor told me that unity is something God desires because it is the collective agreement that Jesus Christ is Lord. He said I was hung up on uniformity of what that belief entails (whatever that means). He said that many of us make that mistake thinking that unity equals uniformity of doctrine.  Who is right?
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on April 26, 2007, 12:21:37 AM
Quote
Pastor told me that unity is something God desires because it is the collective agreement that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Thus says the Pastor as he puts words in Gods mouth = however not says God = Good example of what is going on in the church today, and a good example the churches are falling

Quote
I don't think it's in our best interests to mix our Churches with Pentecostal Churches

It's not safe to be in any church let alone mxing - Read/study the bible, read study the threads on this forum - then compare it to what your pastor says - it will not line up with what God says and that is extremly dangerous ... 

2 Timothy 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

God talks about doctrine here - and the differences
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Stan Pat on April 26, 2007, 10:30:57 AM

It's not safe to be in any church let alone mxing


What do you mean by that? What if I find a very biblical church?
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Dwimble on April 26, 2007, 03:59:49 PM

It's not safe to be in any church let alone mxing


What do you mean by that? What if I find a very biblical church?

I can't speak for midas, but from my observation many who post on this forum believe some or much of the following: the church has completely fallen or is apostate, there are no longer any faithful churches, salvation has ended, all faithful Christians must flee the church, the church age has ended, and so on. There are of course variations, including the degree and extent to which the posters say some or all of those things have happened or are currently happening. Perhaps he was speaking from that sort of position.

Mike
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on April 26, 2007, 06:08:01 PM
hello again stanpat


you said

Quote

I believe doctrine is important. But I am told that I am looking at this the wrong way, and the different doctrines of our churches aren't essentials, as long as we all agree in Christ.


biblical doctrine is very important, don't listen to anybody whos says different, and the different doctrines their churchs teach/belive is very important.
as long as they are from the holy scripture. i think i have posted how pentecostalism is a lie, and i think you see it as well if not you wouldn't be haveing a problem with it. pentecostalism= lie

1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.  

now if they are lieing, it is because the truth is not iin them. There truth has been removed and you should no longer be in that place, if you are a saint.

saying the LORD desires unity, and not to belive in these doctrines is wrong. could you imagine Paul telling the gentiles it was ok to mingle with those jews who said, yes Jesus Christ is Gods son, but you must also be circumcisied?

we are to question these so called christains;

Rev 2:2  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  

and also that very same church;

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  

 Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.  

Jesus was telling the church at ephesus, that if they don't repent because they don't love him as they once did, he was going to remove his light. how much more saying thus saith the Lord, when he never did?

again lieing is an abomniation.

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


 Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Judaea being the church, when you see the church lieing, and repent not she is a harlot,

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

no once they start falling thats it they continually slip, fall, lie deeper into whoredom, bringing there destroction on them quickly. whats there destuction?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


 2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



and also


Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


stan pat i strongly urge you to read ;

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/abomin.shtml

and i agree with midas, i belive there is abounding apostacy in every one of the churchs via satan has been loosed and we are called out of these whores (falling churchs) and i think we are in THE Great Tribulation!!!

now that i have left babylon, and i say to myself how in the world did it take me so long to see this apostacy in our so called reformed church. but it wasn't me but only by the grace of almighty GOD, thanks be to him for opening my eyes

even so, come Lord Jesus

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on April 27, 2007, 11:25:11 PM
Quote
What do you mean by that? What if I find a very biblical church?

I be shocked if you found a "very" biblical church = I believe the churches will fall gradually, however not all churches will fall at the same time - Not many if any faithful churches left
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Stan Pat on April 30, 2007, 09:07:44 AM
  Talking to my Church elders, they say that Pentecostalism is not another religion, but the same as ours. They feel that they are just not understanding scripture correctly, but are still good Christians. That's why they want to have a dialogue with them. To try and help them understand correctly. I don't know what to say to that. Is this an accurate assessment, a noble cause, and am I just being too judgmental?  Your help is appreciated.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Deuce Johnson on April 30, 2007, 01:45:17 PM
 In my view, yes, it is a different gospel than the gospel of Christ. Some of these articles might help you.

    http://mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?pentecostal

    http://mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?charismatic

 If I were you, I would stop listening to the Elders and Pastor of your Church, because they sound like they are already compromising the gospel.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: rebekahsmom on April 30, 2007, 02:48:48 PM
They are no true christians that have no understanding, because God reveals himself to those that are his.  To his elects and his elects only will he reveal his truth to.

Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth [it is], that your God [is] a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret

Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal  [him].

Gal 1:14  And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,  
Gal 1:16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Phl 3:15  Let us  therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.  

And by perfect meaning this so no one misunderstands me.
2 Sa 22:33God [is] my strength [and] power: and he maketh my way perfect.

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.  

1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect  with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.   
1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.  1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart  and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.   Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


And this next verse I like and speaks for its self.
2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.   


I hope I have helped some.  If I did any wrong I ask for correction always.
Rhonda

 
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Dwimble on April 30, 2007, 04:04:57 PM
They are no true christians that have no understanding, because God reveals himself to those that are his.  To his elects and his elects only will he reveal his truth to...

Exactly right, but there are also no true Christians who have all or perfect understanding.

This post isn't directed at you specifically, rebekahsmom, so please don't think that...nor am I by any means trying to defend Pentecostalism, God forbid. But we have to be careful when condemning or speaking against a particular heretical doctrine that we don't make the leap to condemn those who may be in the midst of a group or church holding to that doctrine, and who in ignorance may be holding to some of it themselves. We should attempt to correct them with Godliness, kindness and gentleness.

In my own case, I first came to know the Lord about 25 years ago at an arminian, charismatic, Methodist church. In ignorance I accepted much of the garbage that they fed me every week, but over a period of a few years I came to realize that what they were teaching wasn't true. As I came to understand God's sovereignty and grace I knew they were wrong, but having zero exposure to reformed churches, reformed writings, or anything else of that nature (I didn't even know those things existed), I thought I was the only one who knew the truth of His sovereignty, election, and so on. I went through a terrible, lonely time, believing that there was no one else who believed the truth, and consequently I constantly questioned myself...how could it be possible that "no one else" knew? How could it be that "everyone else" was wrong and I was right?

Eventually my wife and I left that church, not being able in good conscience to stay there any longer, and after a few years of searching we finally found a church that was strongly preaching about grace, election, and the sovereignty of God. I felt so relieved to find that at last. But, they were Dispensationalist. I knew nothing about Dispensationalism, having never consciously heard that word before, so I listened to what they said, but I had learned my lesson from my experience in the previous church and thus viewed the doctrines preached with a degree of skepticism and always searched out the truth. Eventually I took my wife and I out of there too, having concluded that even though they held strongly to God's sovereignty, election, and other key doctrines, Dispensationalism was wrong and it was too prevalent there for us to stay. It was a tough decision but had to be done. After searching again for a few more years we eventually found a solid, reformed church that is preaching the gospel and reaching out with charity to the lost and hurting. But, of course, if I ever concluded that they were fallen or preaching a false gospel then I wouldn't hesitate to take us out of there too.

As for what is going on now, we are called to the mission field, I have started seminary to get better equipped, and our tentative plan is to move to China in about five years or so, God willing. We have a heart for children and will most likely be working with orphans, because the need there is so great.

All that was to illustrate: at what point in the last 25 years should someone have "rebuked me" for my heresy, following a false gospel, or the like? I loved God, sought His truth, and every step of the way as He revealed truth to me I would embrace it and move forward. I would have LOVED someone who knew the truth to, with kindness, discuss those various things with me and show me where I was mixed up. I never had that, so the Lord saw fit to bring me through all those things without anyone else involved.

Mike
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on April 30, 2007, 06:47:40 PM
hello again stanpat

speaking in tounges is absoulty not biblical

i grow up as a young child in a pentecostalism churchs, i don't remember anything much. but my dad spoke in tounges, for hours at a time. and only by the grace of GOD did he slowly but surly pull him out of that into reformed doctrines.

pentecostalism is a doctrin of devils, a lie, an abomniation

we are not to try and help them we arn't even to be around them


2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?




1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
 


like what mike said GOD will draw an elect out of heresy like he did my dad and mike. but they should be reproved then rebuked then seperate yourself from them. thats what is wrong with everyone they think love is not telling them the truth. thats not what love is.

petecostalism is another religion

Pro 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Pamela on April 30, 2007, 11:59:10 PM
Dwimble said:

Quote
Exactly right, but there are also no true Christians who have all or perfect understanding.

This post isn't directed at you specifically, rebekahsmom, so please don't think that...nor am I by any means trying to defend Pentecostalism, God forbid. But we have to be careful when condemning or speaking against a particular heretical doctrine that we don't make the leap to condemn those who may be in the midst of a group or church holding to that doctrine, and who in ignorance may be holding to some of it themselves. We should attempt to correct them with Godliness, kindness and gentleness.

A big amen to that Dwimble!  I think MANY of us, if not all, were in one of "those" churches at one time.  I remember a sister in Christ that was in my Arminian church, that gently showed me the doctrines of grace.  I had already been revealed from the Lord Romans 9:16, but didn't know much more than that.  This one sister slowly gave me little bits and pieces of those wonderful doctrines, and I can only thank God for her.  God can use the elect to instruct others even in those churches.  We should not be so quick to say that ALL the people that are in those churches (buildings) are not believers, just because they are in a false church.  Ultimately, the Lord will pull His elect out.  I think sometimes it just takes longer for some to grow than others....

Pam


Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: rebekahsmom on May 01, 2007, 10:59:50 AM
Dwimble said:

Quote
Exactly right, but there are also no true Christians who have all or perfect understanding.

This post isn't directed at you specifically, rebekahsmom, so please don't think that...nor am I by any means trying to defend Pentecostalism, God forbid. But we have to be careful when condemning or speaking against a particular heretical doctrine that we don't make the leap to condemn those who may be in the midst of a group or church holding to that doctrine, and who in ignorance may be holding to some of it themselves. We should attempt to correct them with Godliness, kindness and gentleness.

A big amen to that Dwimble!  I think MANY of us, if not all, were in one of "those" churches at one time.  I remember a sister in Christ that was in my Arminian church, that gently showed me the doctrines of grace.  I had already been revealed from the Lord Romans 9:16, but didn't know much more than that.  This one sister slowly gave me little bits and pieces of those wonderful doctrines, and I can only thank God for her.  God can use the elect to instruct others even in those churches.  We should not be so quick to say that ALL the people that are in those churches (buildings) are not believers, just because they are in a false church.  Ultimately, the Lord will pull His elect out.  I think sometimes it just takes longer for some to grow than others....

Pam




So everyone will know when I had made my statment
They are no true christians that have no understanding, because God reveals himself to those that are his.  To his elects and his elects only will he reveal his truth to.
it wasn't on a particular "so called false religion (which pentacostalism is)"  but it was a statement on the non -elects because as I said in my above post only God's truth is revealed to His elect.

Also Dwimble when I wrote the word perfect I meant it as it was stated in the verses of my post
And by perfect meaning this so no one misunderstands me.
2 Sa 22:33God [is] my strength [and] power: and he maketh my way perfect.

1Ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.  

1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect  with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.   
1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.  1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart  and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.   Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
"Perfect heart" not flesh which is sinful.  For even David sinned when he commited adultry with Bathsheba but it was still said he had a perfect heart.


2Sa 11:2 ¶ And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman [was] very beautiful to look upon.
2Sa 11:3  And David sent and enquired after the woman. And [one] said, [Is] not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?
2Sa 11:4  And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house.


1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father. 
1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father. 

Rhonda
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on May 01, 2007, 06:11:11 PM
pamela said
Quote


God can use the elect to instruct others even in those churches.


God can do whatever he wants. but hes already told us what hes going to do

petecostalism is a lie

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


 2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


how can you sleep at night telling people its ok to stay and be light?

2Cr 6:14  [b]Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:[/b] for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


 2Cr 6:15  And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


no maybe GOD has a rement in those churchs but we will know a tree by its fruit and lieing or beliving a lie is no fruit of Christ.

beliving a lie= that they ALL might be damned. thats what GOD said not me


and yes GOD does use his elect to spread the word but..........


Hbr 6:4  For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


 Hbr 6:5  , And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,  

 Hbr 6:6 ;       If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance  seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.


you should not be among liers, apostates pentecostals. PERIOD.


Quote

We should not be so quick to say that ALL the people that are in those churches (buildings) are not believers


GODS word is NEVER to harshly spoken to the true elect

how many times does a true elect have to hear the truth to accept it??
 
1) belive in ongoing Rev=lie
2)two babtisms=lie
3)belives man has to choose his salvation=LIE
4)you can heal yourself or others of anything=lie
5)has a special language to talk to GOD=lie
6)runs around shows no reverence and calls that worship=lie
7)teachs sighns and wonders=lie
ect ect ect ect

they are nothing but LIERS and DECIVERS


        GOD almighty said tell them once or twice  and thats it not over and over. not only does scripture condem this pentecostalism my own eyes have seen it how dare you tell some one to stay there any body who is a partaker of that should RUN not walk to the nearst mountain exit

if there are any elect in there thay are like Lot in Sodom and refuse to leave, and if you are his HE will grab you by the arm out of Sodom and not use someone too softly teach them the truth. no ware in scripture does it say such a thing.

separate yourself from them.


you all seem to have a problem with accepting;

Jhn 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  

his sheep hear his voice not a lier let that senk in everone.

Jhn 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 



the days we are living in is not a day for slow growth instead an awake from our sleeping, the night is far spent and the DAY is at hand. destruction is comeing on all these liers



Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Pamela on May 01, 2007, 10:44:28 PM
pamela said
Quote


God can use the elect to instruct others even in those churches.


God can do whatever he wants. but hes already told us what hes going to do

petecostalism is a lie

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


 2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


how can you sleep at night telling people its ok to stay and be light?

2Cr 6:14  [b]Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:[/b] for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


 2Cr 6:15  And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


no maybe GOD has a rement in those churchs but we will know a tree by its fruit and lieing or beliving a lie is no fruit of Christ.

beliving a lie= that they ALL might be damned. thats what GOD said not me


and yes GOD does use his elect to spread the word but..........


Hbr 6:4  For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


 Hbr 6:5  , And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,  

 Hbr 6:6 ;       If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance  seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.


you should not be among liers, apostates pentecostals. PERIOD.


Quote

We should not be so quick to say that ALL the people that are in those churches (buildings) are not believers


GODS word is NEVER to harshly spoken to the true elect

how many times does a true elect have to hear the truth to accept it??
 
1) belive in ongoing Rev=lie
2)two babtisms=lie
3)belives man has to choose his salvation=LIE
4)you can heal yourself or others of anything=lie
5)has a special language to talk to GOD=lie
6)runs around shows no reverence and calls that worship=lie
7)teachs sighns and wonders=lie
ect ect ect ect

they are nothing but LIERS and DECIVERS


        GOD almighty said tell them once or twice  and thats it not over and over. not only does scripture condem this pentecostalism my own eyes have seen it how dare you tell some one to stay there any body who is a partaker of that should RUN not walk to the nearst mountain exit

if there are any elect in there thay are like Lot in Sodom and refuse to leave, and if you are his HE will grab you by the arm out of Sodom and not use someone too softly teach them the truth. no ware in scripture does it say such a thing.

separate yourself from them.


you all seem to have a problem with accepting;

Jhn 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  

his sheep hear his voice not a lier let that senk in everone.

Jhn 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 



the days we are living in is not a day for slow growth instead an awake from our sleeping, the night is far spent and the DAY is at hand. destruction is comeing on all these liers





Joshua,

If I gave you or anyone else the idea that it was OK to stay in an unfaithful church, then I am sorry.  There was no intention on my part.  I was just thinking of MY experience when I was in an Arminian church.  There was a woman that helped me to understand better the doctrines of grace.  WHEN the Lord started opening my eyes, I came out of that church.  OK?  I said that the Lord CAN use a person, and HE HAS to show them the truth.

I do not believe Pentecostalism is the truth, and never said it was.  So calm down.  I think you read WAY TOO MUCH in my post.

Quote
no maybe GOD has a rement in those churchs but we will know a tree by its fruit and lieing or beliving a lie is no fruit of Christ.


Tell me, have you ever believed in a lie?  I know I did....at first.  But in time, God's time not mine, the Lord opened my eyes.  Eventually God's people will come to the truth and leave those churches, if there are any in there.

Quote
if there are any elect in there thay are like Lot in Sodom and refuse to leave, and if you are his HE will grab you by the arm out of Sodom and not use someone too softly teach them the truth. no ware in scripture does it say such a thing.


Just remember Joshua, that even Lot "lingered".  Why?  I don't know.  Maybe he was hoping there were other elect in there.  Not saying that what Lot did was right, but it happened then, and is happening now.  We all hope that there is a "remnant" in there that can still be "called out".  But God will pull out His elect in "due" time.

Genesis 19:15  And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
Genesis 19:16  And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Pam



Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on May 02, 2007, 12:46:42 AM
Quote
Talking to my Church elders

You are better off to talk to God instead of elders - I'm sure you agree God knows more then the elders, you and me all put together

Quote
They feel that they are just not understanding scripture correctly,

Ok, I agree with you and your elders - Pentecostalis are not understanding scripture correctly = so that has to mean that they are teaching false doctrines says you, your elders and me ... So what does God says about people who teach false doctrines

Romans 16:17-18  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them who cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the innocent.

Looks like God just said avoid them - your elders say join them - you can obey God or do what your elders recommend
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Penne on May 02, 2007, 07:41:05 AM
If I were you, I would stop listening to the Elders and Pastor of your Church, because they sound like they are already compromising the gospel.


Stan,

I absolutely agree with Deuce.  You need to listen to God (His Word) and not elders and the pastor who are in the process of scattering people.

Jeremiah 23:1
  "Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD."

This thread reminds me of this past Christmas when a Pentecostal neighbor stopped by my house and prophesied 2007 would be my best year yet.  She babbled on and on, I stopped her before she made me queen of the United States.  Needless to say I had unexpected surgery in April, they accidently knocked two teeth loose, I’m spending a fortune on a dentist, and my van died this week.  This isn’t my worst or best year, it’s better to sum it up by saying flesh is flesh and all things of this nature will pass away.  It has nothing to do with if God loves me or not.

Lot's wife turned back and look what happened to her.
2Corinthians 6:14
14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Penne
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 02, 2007, 02:19:15 PM
Quote
Is Pentecostalism Another Religion?


No, that's nonsense.  Taking strives within our own tradition and heritage we have referred to ourselves as Reformed Pentecostals, rethinking the concepts and perceptions of our forefathers.

http://www.apostolicoutreachoffaith.com/Message.html

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Dwimble on May 02, 2007, 03:04:51 PM
Well, I just looked over your site and found this sentence interesting from your "About us" page: "It is our dream to see the development of the largest GLBT Christian Movement ever known." For those who may not know, "GLBT" stands for "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender."

So, while you may think what the people in this thread have said is "nonsense," that sort of philosophy and goal puts you decidedly so far away from any historical Christian tradition or biblical standard that it is purely ridiculous to make that sort of claim that you aren't practicing a different religion. If you wish to state that you have started a "new" religion based on your own philosophies, taking some parts of it from traditional Christianity and the Bible, then of course that is a statement that you might find some agreement with.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on May 02, 2007, 06:20:13 PM
apostolic


Quote

No, that's nonsense.  Taking strives within our own tradition and heritage we have referred to ourselves as Reformed Pentecostals, rethinking the concepts and perceptions of our forefathers.



i went and read the toungs part from your website its all a lie

tounges WERE never for belivers!!!!!!

1Cr 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe

they were for a sign for unbelivers. where do you get that it was is a fruit of the spirt for "some" belivers today??

once scripture was all written thats it no more tounges.

1Cr 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.


1Cr 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


if this is nonsense than you prove me wrong with scripture not your fuzzy fellings.

do you not know you WILL be judged?


Hbr 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

you have been told the truth. how dare you try to lead one of these astray


Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.   


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

don't mean to change the subject but this needs to be made clear
found this on your website under "salvation"

<<<<<<<<<<Salvation is freely offered to all that will believe, regardless of sex, creed, political alliances, sexual orientation and ethnicity (Matthew 10:32; Luke 12:10).Salvation consists of deliverance from all sin and unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus Christ. The New Testament experience of salvation cannot be earned and is freely offered from Christ himself we need only confess it with out mouths.  After accepting salvation the Christian is to live a godly life (Acts 2:36-41). >>>>>>>>>>>

this too is a lie

lets go to scripture

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


 Rom 9:16  So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  

GOD says not to him that willeth                  LORD=truth
you say is to him that willeth                    your website=lie

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. 

it scares you and all your pentecostal "brethern" to know that the LORD GOD maker of heaven and earth passes over some and leaves them in there sin, death. and chooses some for everlasting glory and to be his heirs

how dare you blashpmy his holy word

if you are HIS you need to first and foremost confess your sin and if it pleases HIM he will forgive you, then you need to seperate yourself from this JUNK. and live for the LORD, and read his word for yourself don't let others interpet it for you let him reveal himself to you

listen to the vs Penne quoted in a earlier post and let it sink in

Jer 23:1 ¶ Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

if you lead any astray WOE be unto you. confess, repent ,turn from your evil ways. judgement is coming

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on May 02, 2007, 11:55:45 PM
Quote
Gay, Spirit-filled and Single!

This is on that web site - Now this  tread is totally getting out of hand - This is a Christian forum and that quote is totally un-biblical and unwanted ... That post along with mine should be zapped ...
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: andreas on May 03, 2007, 01:06:43 AM
<<<This is on that web site - Now this  tread is totally getting out of hand - This is a Christian forum and that quote is totally un-biblical and unwanted ... That post along with mine should be zapped ...>>>


You all knew it was full of abominations, yet you all visited to have a peep!  ;D One more thing,should we not delete the website address? Offcourse,you boss,you do what you like. ;)

andreas.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Dwimble on May 03, 2007, 01:58:03 AM
<<<This is on that web site - Now this  tread is totally getting out of hand - This is a Christian forum and that quote is totally un-biblical and unwanted ... That post along with mine should be zapped ...>>>


You all knew it was full of abominations, yet you all visited to have a peep!...

Exactly. I had no idea what was there but followed his link to see, since apparantly he believed that it would someone prove that he isn't practicing a different religion. I read the "About us" section and then made a concise point about that one obvious sentence as a clear example of just how far out it is. I find it odd that someone else would then visit the site, post more stuff from there, and then complain about posting stuff from there.

Mike
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 03, 2007, 05:51:30 PM
Well, I just looked over your site and found this sentence interesting from your "About us" page:



First, that's not my website. Second, I don't believe in homosexuality. I referenced the website to show the growing list of reformed Pentecostals and Charismatics. If you are offended by that one, I would also recommend CARM. Come post in the CARM forum, where there are no thought police and reformed people do believe in miracles and signs without being stoned.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on May 03, 2007, 06:48:07 PM
apostolic



you never answered any of the vs i presented

if sighns are for so called  belivers  like you say then what do you do about this vs

 1Cr 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.  

its a sighn not a gift


tounge=sighn
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 

you seek after tounges and miricles=your evil



Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


 Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

the only reason i went to your apostate website was to see why in the world you called it reformed, i should have known better than to go to that satan worshiping place. may the LORD forgive me

tounges have ceased, your chooseing your salvation is a LIE it is aparent GOD has passed over you and left you in your filth

you can't choose to go to heaven no more than you can will a miriacle or like Jer said change the color of your skin

Hbr 12:16  Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


 Hbr 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.  

Esau belived, and found no place for repentance though he sought it carefully


you and your apostate false religion have decived hundreds of millions i think its time you leave. no one needs to hear your LIES

and i want stone you. for the LORD said vengence is mine, he will judge you
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joshua Ashley on May 03, 2007, 08:01:03 PM
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.   

I have asked the LORD, to forgive me for i shouldn't have ever even replied to you. for casting his holy pearls before the swine

for we should all not cast our pearls before the swine, for he hath withstood our words

after the first or second warning were to stop talking to apostolic and all others who teach damnable lies

Rom 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


 Rom 16:18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


I Love to talk about the Word of truth with belivers, but when we get in an argument with reprobates it invokes anger in my self and cause me to sin. this is why we are to separate ourseves from these wolfs in sheepskins

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: RedeemedinHim on September 25, 2007, 08:54:04 PM
I've just read all the replies to this post.  I have a difficult time declaring a person in that nutty pentecostal church a non believer -- and here's why.  I was not born into a Christian home but a home with a pagan religion.  I was saved in 1984 not knowing anything about Christianity except that basics -- the very basics.  I was so ignorant that I did not realize that I could read the bible from any book but believed that I had to read the bible from page one and read to the end much like a novel.  In fact, before Christ wooed me, I thought the Christians had to come up with a New Testament because they found errors in the Old Testament -- hence, "New Testament."  I figured why trust a religion where corrections had to be made.  I say all this to give you and idea of how ignorant I was.

I didn't start off in a pentecostal church but at a Calvary church.  They are dispensationalists but not pentecostals.  Eventually, I ended up in a pentecostal home church.  That lasted a total of 3 years.  Obviously, I am not there anymore and He has me in the right church -- a reformed church.  This was a journey that took a number of years. 

In fact, I can hardly stand to be around pentecostals or hear their teachings -- it really drives me up the wall.  I've actually been kicked off a couple of MSN boards because even though it was not a pentecostal board, there were a few that were and I was apparently not very giving towards their beliefs.

The point I'm trying to make is that if I was to declare that pentecostals are not believers, then I was not saved until after I left or declared the pentecostals false.  I don't believe that to be true in all cases.  However, there are some that I know that I wonder if they are or not but the judgement is not mine to make.  Their theology is so far off base there is no resemblance as to what I find in scripture -- they are worse off than I ever was.  I "tried" to be pentecostal and I thought that I was not exhibiting enough faith which is why I did not "manifest the spirit" like they did.  I am so embarassed by those three years - but it doesn't change the fact of when I was saved.  I went through a lot of error before I finally arrived at where I am now.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reformer on September 26, 2007, 12:03:21 AM
I've just read all the replies to this post.  I have a difficult time declaring a person in that nutty pentecostal church a non believer

I didn't start off in a pentecostal church but at a Calvary church.  They are dispensationalists but not pentecostals.  Eventually, I ended up in a pentecostal home church.  That lasted a total of 3 years.  Obviously, I am not there anymore and He has me in the right church -- a reformed church.  This was a journey that took a number of years. 

The point I'm trying to make is that if I was to declare that pentecostals are not believers, then I was not saved until after I left or declared the pentecostals false. 

The question is not if Pentecostals, Dispensationalists, Roman Catholics or Mormons can be believers, the question is if Pentecostalism is another Religion. And the answer is yes!

I started out in a very bad Holy Roller Church. But that's not the question. The church itself was another religion, and I thank my lucky stars (just an expression) that I am out of that place.

Is Pentecostalism another Religion? YES!!!!! It doesn't have to be qualified any more than the Roman Catholic Church needs to be qualified. They are both false churches. We don't sit in judgment of people's salvation. That's not our job.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: RedeemedinHim on September 26, 2007, 10:55:30 AM
The question is not if Pentecostals, Dispensationalists, Roman Catholics or Mormons can be believers, the question is if Pentecostalism is another Religion. And the answer is yes!

I agree that they are a different religion -- it's barely recognizable.  It keeps changing as well for they continue to have "revelation."
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: judykanova on September 27, 2007, 04:28:40 AM
I have in the past attended such churches.  I never once observed anyone interpreting the "jibberish" that was occasionally uttered.    I remember questioning how such things could be, but also had the impression that most were 'putting on' because of the false assumption that such utterances were prompted by the Holy Spirit.  I attended largely because of their Bible study meetings during which this was not done.

I know a lot more now than I did then, as I did not properly understand that tongues had ceased.  I dare say that most here, if they are honest with themselves, would acknowledge that this truth is not readily understood -- much like such things as fasting is not readily understood.

Unlike the Mormons and 7th Day Adventist whose source (person or book) of authority extends beyond the Bible, Pentecostalism (to my knowledge) claims only the Bible.  I therefore would not go so far as to say they have another religion.  But then that depends on what one means by “another religion”.   The two big criteria for me are 1) is the Bible the only source of truth, and 2)  is the Christ of the Bible preached.

Mar 9
38  And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40  For he that is not against us is on our part.
41  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Phi 1
13  So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14  And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15  Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.  

I say this only to say that most of us began our Christian walk by accepting doctrines which, by the Grace of God, we have subsequently abandoned as false.  I think that God's election goes beyond and across denominational distinctions.

Just my 2 cents of which I don't expect agreement.

judy
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on September 27, 2007, 11:07:43 AM
>>>
I have in the past attended such churches.  I never once observed anyone interpreting the "jibberish" that was occasionally uttered. 
<<<

Gibberish is defined as unintelligible speech. And that is exactly what these people are doing. They are number one, telling lies against God, declaring that He is speaking to them miraculously, individually, directly, moving their mouths to utter words (God's word) directly to them. This is more than a misguided little quirk, it is more than a travesty, it is an abomination!  No need to sugar coat it (in my view). That is to say, if it is not true that God is speaking through them miraculously.

...which it is not! So they deliberately made it up.
 

Quote
>>>
Unlike the Mormons and 7th Day Adventist whose source (person or book) of authority extends beyond the Bible, Pentecostalism (to my knowledge) claims only the Bible.  I therefore would not go so far as to say they have another religion.
<<<

I would disagree. Pentecostalism by its very nature is a continual ongoing addition by the Spirit of God (supposedly) to God's already written word, which is a criterion for having another gospel. By your own admission, you say most were 'putting on' because of the false assumption that such utterances were prompted by the Holy Spirit. I would amend that statement to ALL" were 'putting on' because they wanted to be seen as having utterances from the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit had nothing whatsoever to do with this, and indeed He is contrary to this abomination of pretending to receive messages from God, it is very clear that their authority is not the Bible.

John 16:2

Point being, God doesn't excuse other religions simply because they believe or think that they are doing the will of God, or because they believe they are acting on His authority when they are not. We are all responsible and obligated to search out the truth for ourselves. Mormons are responsible for searching out truth and to come out of that church. 7th Day Adventists are responsible for searching out the truth and to come out of that church. Roman Catholics are responsible for searching out the truth and to come out of that church. Why? Because it is another religion. Else they should legitimately stay there! The very fact that we think people should leave that church and find a true church clearly confirms this. Else we would be encouraging them to stay in "THAT" Church of Christ. Selah!

Lest we forget, the Judaizers believed their beliefs were of God as well, but Christ declared otherwise. Just because Pentecostals believe that they are holding to the authority of scripture does not mean that they either are, or they are not responsible for their actions. Or anyone for that matter. So while many will not declare Pentecostalism another religion, the fact is, any religion that feigns God's word direct to them in an unknown language, is by definition another gospel other than the true religion. Moreover, all "other" religions have at least some good aspects to them (take your pick), but they all have one thing in common. Addition and subtraction to and from God's inspired word.


Quote
>>>
..But then that depends on what one means by ôanother religionö.
<<<

I think the plain definitions are best. Another religion is simply any religion that is not the one true religion whose authority is God's word alone. Thus, any "other" is "another" religion.  i.e., Unification Church, Roman Catholicism, 7th day Adventists, Latter-day Saints, and Pentecostalism / Charismaticism. The fact is, Pentecostalism and its various forms are a new permeating force that is "INFECTING" theology across denominations and churches. Its ideology affects theological thinking and changes historic biblical beliefs. Indeed it is a whole unbiblical "ethos" rather than simply an honest misunderstanding of scripture. It is another form of theological declension, rather than a continuation of Christ's teachings.


Quote
>>>
The two big criteria for me are 1) is the Bible the only source of truth,
<<<

But the Bible isn't their only source of truth since they feign they are receiving messages (new word from the Spirit of God) directly from God "APART" from the Bible. So you're making my case for me.


Quote
>>>
..and 2)  is the Christ of the Bible preached.
<<<

No, the Christ of the Bible is not preached anymore than the Christ of the Bible is preached in the synagogues, the Roman Catholic church, or in Jim Jones church. All Churches (by their very nature) preach some true aspects of Christ. Every single one! The point is--is this Christ in whole the Christ of the Bible? And I would think that any church that feigns/pretends to be receiving messages from God directly apart from the Bible, are not preaching the Christ of the Bible. They are preaching a Christ of their own making, speaking words of their own design, apart from the divine authority of the Bible. They are lying, declaring "Thus Saith The Lord" when the Lord has not said.  Bearing false witness against the Holy Spirit. They are without question PROPHETS who prophesy lies, claiming/feigning it is God talking! Why so many have attempted to justify this as some misguided honest mistake, I cannot fathom. If it's not real or true, then it is a lie.  A lie from those of the church through the father of lies. Their solution is to confess it and repent of it, not to justify it.

Ezekiel 22:28

This is an ego trip, nothing more and nothing less. This is considered robbery unto the Lord. The Christ of the Bible doesn't feign the Lord declaring things miraculously directly to them that He has not declared. And any way you slice it, these lies cannot be the gospel of Christ, and thus their church is preaching "ANOTHER" gospel.

The solution is not justification, it is a witness unto repentance. Now I realize that what I say here is not man-pleasing because man what's to believe that there are so many more misguided Christians than there actually are. Nevertheless, do I seek to please men or to preach the truth?

Galatians 1:8-10

And all God's people said, AMEN!


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on September 27, 2007, 11:20:41 AM
>>>
The question is not if Pentecostals, Dispensationalists, Roman Catholics or Mormons can be believers, the question is if Pentecostalism is another Religion. And the answer is yes!

I agree that they are a different religion -- it's barely recognizable.  It keeps changing as well for they continue to have "revelation."
<<<

Reformer and RedeemedinHim,
    I couldn't agree with you more. There is no question but that it is a different religion, and more than that, it is even now spreading its tentacles to mainstream churches, infecting them with its poisonous ideas and diverse way of handling Scripture. What is most disturbing (to me) is that so many professing Christians today accept Pentecostalism and Charismaticism as the gospel. As compared to years ago when almost universally it was considered to be "a fringe religion" and outside of the true church by almost every Biblical community. The in-roads it has made in such a short period of time is nothing short of astounding. It is the changing landscape of the churches that refuse to hold fast to the faithful doctrines they have received.

Revelation 3:2-3

Like the sacred covenant of marriage, it's all falling by the wayside because the churches will not hold fast to the doctrines of old that are rooted firmly in scripture.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Dwight on September 27, 2007, 01:33:42 PM
I would disagree. Pentecostalism by its very nature is a continual ongoing addition by the Spirit of God (supposedly) to God's already written word, which is a criterion for having another gospel. By your own admission, you say most were 'putting on' because of the false assumption that such utterances were prompted by the Holy Spirit. I would amend that statement to ALL" were 'putting on' because they wanted to be seen as having utterances from the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit had nothing whatsoever to do with this, and indeed He is contrary to this abomination of pretending to receive messages from God, it is very clear that their authority is not the Bible.


Or to put it another way, why would someone who's authority is the Bible be pretending tthat God is miraculously speaking to them anyway? Judy says they are putting on, Tony says they are lying, I would tend to agree with Tony. Based on what they are claiming and how it's not possible. They're lying. Because how can you accidentally think God is speaking through you? It's a deliberate lie, isn't it?

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Kenneth White on September 28, 2007, 10:52:23 AM
I am with you on this one Mr. Warren. The Pentecostal distinctive, typically including the "second blessing" of the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues, is not of Christ. And that Church's distinctive are spreading to others and are causing a great stir. Pentecostal-Apostolic, Pentecostal-Reformed, Pentecostal-Holiness, Pentecostal-Baptist, Pentecostal-Presbyterian, I've even heard of Pentecostal-Catholics. Now why in the world would Pentecostalism suddenly be acceptable to the Roman Catholic Church? Something is wrong here. The Pentecostal Paradigms are now everywhere. It use to be found just in the free will Churches, but now it's also come into reformed and Calvinistic Churches. It's the blindness of the people that prevent them from seeing it as any great danger.

The great corruptions of Pentecostalism do the church so much harm, and I wonder if we know that we do ourselves and God a great disservice by counting them as part of Christ? I agree with your previous assertion. People are so eager to be nonjudgmental and include everyone, that they have just closed their eyes to what is really occurring in these churches. But evil, done in God's name, is in some sense twice as bad and a "double evil" of sorts.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Diane Moody on September 28, 2007, 11:44:07 PM
 Are Charismatics and Pentecostals pretty much of the same type doctrines? Because I have a friend that goes to a Charismatic church.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Davis on September 29, 2007, 07:39:42 AM
Are Charismatics and Pentecostals pretty much of the same type doctrines? Because I have a friend that goes to a Charismatic church.

The terms are not completely synonymous, but the two groups are very similar. The term "charismatic" was coined in the 1960's when members of non-Pentecostal churches began to pursue the Pentecostal baptism in the Holy Spirit, the so-called spiritual gifts, etc.. These charismatics chose not to associate themselves with Pentecostal denominations, instead remaining within their current denominations: Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, and so forth. Today, the term charismatic is often associated with local churches that are unaffiliated with a denomination.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Betty on September 30, 2007, 09:09:16 AM
Unlike the Mormons and 7th Day Adventist whose source (person or book) of authority extends beyond the Bible, Pentecostalism (to my knowledge) claims only the Bible.  I therefore would not go so far as to say they have another religion.
judy

Thank you Judy,

The Pentecostal Religion is the Christian Church, just like every other denomination that believes "Jesus is Lord" and salvation comes through Him alone by asking Him into your heart, and for the forgiveness of sins by His precious shed blood on the cross. (Here is the difference: They are Bible believing Christians who are empowered with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit given by The Holy Spirit. ( Romans 12:6,1Cor.8-11,1Cor.14:1-39.) Please Read these Scriptures. They believe in lively worship, Dancing, Song, Clapping of hands, jumping in the holy Ghost, Raising their hands in praise, etc.

Not everyone posesses all gifts, but most have more than one gift. They believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So what He did with His apostles at Pentecost and the early church is for today also. Pentecostals preach salvation, and believe in evanglizing to the non-believers. It's Jesus command in the last chapter of Matthew. To preach the Gospel in all the world. That means they are of the same religion, not a different religion. I'm glad someone understands that.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Kenneth White on September 30, 2007, 09:49:34 AM
I therefore would not go so far as to say they have another religion.
judy

Thank you Judy,

The Pentecostal Religion is the Christian Church, just like every other denomination that believes "Jesus is Lord" and salvation comes through Him alone by asking Him into your heart, and for the forgiveness of sins by His precious shed blood on the cross.


First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion. It's been said by the Church since they first showed up on the scene. I am really surprised to hear Judy place Pentecostalism as of the true Church.  From your previous posts, I'm not surprised at your comments. Pentecostalism is definitely an alternative religion, or what is commonly called another gospel. It is a prime example of a church that holds to expressions of indifference to the truth and glorifies the mystical working of the Holy Spirit and the emotional experiences which are supposed to be the result of this working.

The Pentecostal movement has been tried and found wanting from its very basic roots and tenets. Considering it's origins and history and its emphasis on false gifts of the Holy Spirit, it has long ago been weighed in the Bible's balances by faithful Christians, and come up short for being of Christ. And if it's not of Christ, it's another religion. It fails the test of what constitutes basic orthodox Christianity. This makes it a dangerous heresy that should never be called of Christ, and yet that is growing and playing a major role in ruining Christ's Church.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24

It is no coincidence that Pentecostals claim to speak in tongues and prophecy the same as all the other false gospel groups (Gnostics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Quakers, Shakers, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists and W. church of God). So on what basis can we distinguish Pentecostalism from these other gospels who also claim extra biblical revelation such as tongues and prophecy? None of the Churches on this list are there by coincidence. They are all there because of their extra-biblical revelation, that God pronounces a plague upon in the last book of Revelation.

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9

"He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." John 3:36

Oneness pentecostalism is another gospel that attacks the person of Son, demonstrating that those who receive it are not subject to the Son. They do not believe on the Son as the scriptures reveal Him. Instead, they irreverently dissect Him.

If you want to get some facts, history and insights on the gospel of Pentecostalism, I would recommend reading on the issue. And I would suggest you start here:

http://mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?Pentecostal

http://mountainretreatorg.net/searchit/searchit.cgi?Charismatic

I know we love the people there, but the truth is, Pentecostalism is another religion. And this we say not lightly or hastily, but carefully and humbly. For we know that there are many professing Christians deceived by and ensnared in this heretical movement.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on September 30, 2007, 12:01:38 PM
>>>
First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion. It's been said by the Church since they first showed up on the scene.
<<<

Amen! It is only relatively recently that the mainstream churches have started accepting Pentecostalism as part of the body of Christ. ...which begs the question, are churches getting more faithful and enlightened in our day and this is why they are accepting of Pentecostal churches as of Christ? Or is it just the opposite where they are falling away from Christ more and more and thus accepting more and more foreign appendages as part of the body?  You decide!

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on October 01, 2007, 09:15:35 AM
Pentecostals don't mind being the whipping boy of Bible thumpers because it's an act of jealousy. And you can contribute the steady growth lately to the sovereign activity of the Holy Spirit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_growth_of_Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.

To speak evil against the Pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against it, and you are in danger of never being forgiven. Good Christians believe this phenomenon is the working of the Holy Spirit and they want to be a part of it. Why is your efforts being spent condemning the workings of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostals and Charismatics? Have you no feelings, no understanding that miracles do happen today?  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anyone denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Pamela on October 01, 2007, 10:21:05 AM
Quote
Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.


That is the same thing my in-laws say about Roman Catholics!

Matthew 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Quote
To speak evil against the Pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against it, and you are in danger of never being forgiven.

If it was the work of the Holy Spirit, we would not speak evil against it.  It is BECAUSE it is NOT the work of the Holy Spirit that we speak against it.

Quote
Good Christians believe this phenomenon is the working of the Holy Spirit and they want to be a part of it.

Good Christians can "discern" the spirits.... Frankly, I have been to a couple gatherings with Pentecostals and was frightened by their actions.  While they were praying (everyone outloud all at once) with much confusion, I was praying too, within myself because I was scared!  Would a true believer be scared of a manifestation if it were from the Holy Spirit?  I don't think so... 

Pam
 
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: RedeemedinHim on October 01, 2007, 10:58:40 AM
Quote
Pentecostals don't mind being the whipping boy of Bible thumpers because it's an act of jealousy. And you can contribute the steady growth lately to the sovereign activity of the Holy Spirit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_growth_of_Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.

To speak evil against the Pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against it, and you are in danger of never being forgiven. Good Christians believe this phenomenon is the working of the Holy Spirit and they want to be a part of it. Why is your efforts being spent condemning the workings of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostals and Charismatics? Have you no feelings, no understanding that miracles do happen today?  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anyone denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

No, it's not an act of jealousy in any way.  It's an acknowledgment and/or declaration of their heretical teachings much like the acknowledgment/declaration of the heretical teachings found within the mormon church. 

As to the pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit found in the pentecostal churches, I would like to give an example.  I speak from experience as I used to belong to a pentecostal church when I was a newer believer.  If a person had a problem with alcohol, they would be told that they had a demon of alcohol and needed deliverance.  They would then sit through a deliverance session and they would then exhibit weird behavior such as coughing, wiggling around, possibly throwing up.  IF alcohol problems were due to demons, then one could walk into the local bar and command the demons to leave.  If drinking problems were due to demons, then the pentecostals could go to the local bars and effectively shut them down by commanding demons to get out.  The problem is that those that are being delivered from demons are the pentecostals themselves.  This happens through the power of suggestion.  A person in authority tells them that they have a demon, the person believes it -- and voilà, they exhibit the behavior of being delivered.  If one did not accept that they had a demon or if one did not exhibit the behavior to show that they were being delivered, they were told they were lacking faith.

This flies smack against what happens in scripture.  There is no instance in scripture where a believer was possessed by a demon.  In ALL instances, it was a non believer and in those cases, a command was given.  It did not involve deliverance sessions.

The bottom line is in pentecostal churches, one acts the way they do because of the power of suggestion -- they are told to believe certain ways so they will manifest the behavior of what they are told to believe.  Growling like lions, barking like dogs, wriggling around looking like one is having a seizure, etc. -- this is a learned behavior based on what they are taught is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

No, jealousy is not an issue with non pentecostals.  It's simply an acknowledgment and understanding that the teachings coming from the pentecostal churches are false.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Chris on October 01, 2007, 01:57:58 PM
Unlike the Mormons and 7th Day Adventist whose source (person or book) of authority extends beyond the Bible, Pentecostalism (to my knowledge) claims only the Bible.
judy

Oooh,  I would have to disagree. I'd have to say that is incorrect. Any religion that gets revelation from God apart from the Bible, has an authority that extends beyond the Bible. Pentecostalism definitely qualifies.

On top of that, someone is supposed to interpret this extrabiblical revelation from God. So again, they are receiving authoritative messages from God apart from the Bible. So I don't see how you can say Pentecostalism claims only the Bible.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on October 02, 2007, 08:24:46 PM
Quote
Oooh,  I would have to disagree. I'd have to say that is incorrect. Any religion that gets revelation from God apart from the Bible, has an authority that extends beyond the Bible. Pentecostalism definitely qualifies.

On top of that, someone is supposed to interpret this extrabiblical revelation from God. So again, they are receiving authoritative messages from God apart from the Bible. So I don't see how you can say Pentecostalism claims only the Bible.

Chris are you saying

Some religions do receive messages/revelations from God and has the authority to extend beyond the bible and this is OK or

Were you just pointing out what Pentecostalism believe and it NOT ok to extend beyond the bible
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Chris on October 03, 2007, 08:35:48 AM
Quote
Oooh,  I would have to disagree. I'd have to say that is incorrect. Any religion that gets revelation from God apart from the Bible, has an authority that extends beyond the Bible. Pentecostalism definitely qualifies.

On top of that, someone is supposed to interpret this extrabiblical revelation from God. So again, they are receiving authoritative messages from God apart from the Bible. So I don't see how you can say Pentecostalism claims only the Bible.

Chris are you saying

Some religions do receive messages/revelations from God and has the authority to extend beyond the bible and this is OK or

Were you just pointing out what Pentecostalism believe and it NOT ok to extend beyond the bible



No, I was just pointing out the error in Judy's belief that Pentecostals do not have an authority outside of the Bible. Because if they believe that they are receiving verbalized messages from the Spirit of God outside of the Bible, then obviously their authority extends beyond the Bible to these alleged messages from God.

Galatians 1:9 "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed".

I reject that any true Christian religion today can actually receive messages/revelations from God or has the authority to extend God's word beyond the bible. I was just telling Judy that Pentecostalism is a fraud religion just like the others, and should not be tolerated by any Christians. It is another religion.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 03, 2007, 11:08:52 AM
>>>
Pentecostals don't mind being the whipping boy of Bible thumpers because it's an act of jealousy.
<<<

 Assuming "Bible Thumpers" means Bible believers or Biblical Christians, I would say they testify against Pentecostalism and Charismaticism because it is a "serious" danger to the church in general. And just because a great many of the church do not recognize that danger, doesn't mean those who do should be silent about it.

2nd Timothy 2:15-17

Many do not understand that the doctrines of Pentecostalism and Charismaticism are like a canker or cancer that eats away at the very fabric of the faithful church. Should we include cancer as part of the healthy body, or should we cut it out? You decide!


Quote
>>>
And you can contribute the steady growth lately to the sovereign activity of the Holy Spirit.
<<<

No, You can attribute it to that, I will attribute it to the so-called "Good Christians" preaching humanistic love, worldly compromise and allowances, and extolling the sincerity of such wayward people. It is the professing Christians giving heed to the persuasion/seduction of deceiving spirits that cause them to depart from the faith once delivered to the Saints.

1st Timothy 4:1
2nd Thessalonians 2:3

I would contribute the steady growth of Pentecostalism to indifferent, apathetic, indolent, lazy, unconscientious Christians. ..but that's just me.


Quote
>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_growth_of_Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.
<<<

Yes, I don't doubt that "might" be true. It would be specifically because of people in the church today who are unable to distinguish the difference between another religion and the true religion and so give quarter to such doctrines. It is true that much of the once faithful church has capitulated to Pentecostal and Charismatic influences, and many more help by giving it tacit approval. That is just one more indication of the signs of the times. And even though some intellectually may not have embraced many of the extremes of this caustic movement, they have given in to the flawed reasoning behind it. I don't doubt that for a minute, and I think it's even demonstrated here sometimes. Nevertheless, growth and acceptance of error is not the litmus test for a true doctrine or church. Not adding or taking away from the word of God is the test. It is false and extra-biblical doctrine that makes a church "another religion" and this is what much of the church "still" does not understand. ...even after all these years.

Ezekiel 22:28

Note it is the "prophets" of the Lord that have plastered or mortared the bricks of His house with unsound adhesives, and that is what causes the house to eventually fall.  Selah.


Quote
>>>
To speak evil against the Pentecostal working of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against it, and you are in danger of never being forgiven.
<<<

You might be able to scare the less educated in scripture with that old "bug-a-boo" but those who indeed have the Spirit of God working within them know the difference between Pentecostal babbling/confusion, and the true working of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error (1st John 4:6). Between wrested Scriptures and authoritative Scriptures quoted word for word. Between speaking against the "evil of Pentecostalism," and speaking evil of the Holy Spirit.

2nd Peter 1:21

I reiterate, to falsely claim that God is speaking through you, when God is obviously not speaking through you (which the Pentecostal religion does) is an Abomination and blatantly heretical. And I do not care how many professing Christians today with their humanistic reasoning, wish to accept Pentecostalism babbling in the name of God as being of the body of Christ. I will never accept it, nor give place to such debauchery and horrifically false incendiary doctrines. Because holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, but unholy men today speak as they were moved by the spirit of Antichrist "claiming" it is the Spirit of God. And that I will never accept nor include in the body of Christ. All extra-Biblical messages disingenuously alleged to be from God today, are an addition to God's word and contrary to the body of Christ.


Quote
>>>
Good Christians believe this phenomenon is the working of the Holy Spirit and they want to be a part of it.
<<<

No, that's the "power" of deception, and it's not the working of the Holy Spirit. It's the working of humanism, the carnal inclination to "show off" in feigning to have something which is obviously not there. As for the so-called Good Christians, "they are the problem." For there are no good Christians, only true Christians. God is good, but man dwells in a robe of flesh. Man is easily deceived "IF" he is not looking to scripture (God's unadulterated word/i]) and not experience for truth.

1st John 4:1

Today these so-called "Good Christians" will claim that's not really their job to see and test whether the spirits are of God or not. Today so-called "Good Christians" would call that judgmental. Today so-called "Good Christians" will defer their proving the spirits and simply include them all as part of the body of Christ simply because they attend the church and they seemed nice people. No, God's not looking for "Good Christians" to save the world and pardon every transgression, God is looking for "Two Witnesses" to testify to His word and preach the gospel truth that such errors as Pentecostalism are destroying the "Covenanted Church" and it is the so-called "Good Christians" who are largely responsible.

Ezekiel 3:18

Meaning that the so-called "Good Christians" who neglect their jobs (yes, jobs) as watchmen, will not go unpunished. Selah! It is not enough to know what is the work of the Spirit, we must also try the spirits to understand what is "not" of the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit isn't a liar against itself, it's the man that is claiming to be moved of the Spirit in abject babbling that is the liar. Let's not forget that. As I said before, claiming to speak direct messages miraculously from God is not some simple mistake or error in understanding, it is a deliberate pretense of God's working. For that which is not the working of God's Spirit, but claiming to "BE" the working of the Spirit of God, is the egregious spirit of antichrist. So I have no problem with exposing this heretical error with respect to the (alleged) work of the Spirit.


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Why is your efforts being spent condemning the workings of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostals and Charismatics?
<<<

Revelation 11:3

Because I mourn in sackcloth for these transgressions in the church. My efforts are spent witnessing to truth and testifying against false teachings masquerading as Christianity. It's spent giving glory to God for the "true workings of the Holy Spirit" and warning God's people of the gross error of those "alleged" Good Christians who deliberately "feign" that they are receiving miraculous declarations directly from God in an unknown language. Pentecostalism is Heterodox Christianity, a growing, carnal, vain, man-centered religion. Our church, life and worship should be theocentric or God-centered. We spend our time worshipping Him in righteousness and truth, not in lying about receiving private messages from Him in code. God's children do not lie about such things. It is the children of Satan whose Father teaches such lies.

Proverbs 17:3-4

The true Spirit of God won't give ear to such abominable babblings supposed to be from Him. Saying thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said. So what spirit will give ear to the naughty (perverse) tongue? We are living in a world today where the face of worship is changing to a more physical, vicarious, emphasis on feelings, empirical experience, ego-centric worship, where the idea of fervent Spirit-filled prayer is altered, and sound theology is belittled and labeled harsh. But God's people are not of that world, they are just visitors here.

Hebrews 11:13

We are not of this world. True faith reveals that we are strangers and pilgrims on the earth, here merely as servants of God to do a job. Not of condemning, but of standing fast, holding true, removing not the ancient landmarks, but being a watchman to sound the trumpet to warn "Good Christians."


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Have you no feelings...
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Yes. But unlike "secular humanism," Christians bring their feelings into "subjection" to the word of God, and not vice versa. It may be true that emotion, empirical evidences and feelings have replaced objective truth in many churches, and I'm sure that is partly why Pentecostalism is making such great strides in the church. But I believe that as TRUE believers, we are obliged to take the time to study exactly what these people are "claiming." We cannot simply refuse to question, or just Humanistically give them some illogical, unchristian "benefit of the doubt." Because there is "no doubt" of the egregious error in what they are claiming to be doing, and there is "no benefit" in including them as part of the body, and there is "no question" but that it is their own invention rather than the truth. Truth inspires change. Real change, not just the lip service that passes for being servants of God, but real servitude.

1st John 3:18-19

I.e., let us not just give lip service to the truth in love, but let us put actions behind our words. Feelings are merely sensibilities, emotions, sensations and the output of one's state of mind. But agape is so much more and inspires growth in real Truth and Grace.


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...no understanding that miracles do happen today?
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I do understand that miracles do happen today. Every time someone becomes saved, there has been another resurrection. Every time someone hears the gospel and it pricks their hearts that they understand, the miracle of the deaf being able to hear for the first time has occurred. Every time someone has their eyes opened that they can see that Christ is the only way to salvation, the miracle of sight has been given to the blind. Every time an evangelist preaches the gospel and people eat it up, the miracle of bread multiplied to the hungry is performed. And it's all the working of the Holy Spirit. Not this "pretend" working demonstrated in Pentecostalism, but the real working of the Holy Spirit of God.

Matthew 9:12-13

Likewise, "Go ye and learn" what that means. Then you'll know of the true miracles of the Spirit that are occurring today, rather than the lying signs and wonders that God has warned His servants of. The true Baptism of the Spirit, rather than the Pseudo Christ spirit that pretends it is a cleansing spirit. That kind of spirit that Jesus said "would deceive many!" And the reason it does is because the so-called "Good Christians" go by feelings and humanistic love, and not by faith in God's word alone.


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I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anyone denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Those who indeed have the Spirit of God working within them know the difference between a "Straw Man," and the faithful man. I never deny the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism of the Spirit is true only as God defines it, not as Pentecostals attempt to redefine it. It is that the true Spirit of God cleanses us (Baptizes us) from our sins when we become saved. And this true Spirit of God (as opposed to the spirit of Antichrist) works in our hearts, quietly and yet powerfully in blessings that are far above and beyond any outward ostentatious Pentecostal display of piety. For it is the Spirit of Truth communing with us secretly, unseen but realized.

Matthew 6:6

But, if you want to stand up in church and babble incoherently pretending that God is speaking to you in His own miraculous language, then you go right ahead. No one will stop you. Indeed, I'm sure that many of this church will pat you on the back and call you brother. But you are not going to hear it from me. Because true agape love is in witnessing to "The Truth," even when it may hurt feelings, and even as others are giving tacit support for those errors. I don't live by feelings, by church consensus, by popular opinion or by humanistic ideas of love, I live by following God's word alone.

Luke 4:4

My prayer is that faithful Christians will not be deceived by appearances of sincerity or swayed by the modernist idea of "Good Christians," regardless of their doctrines. For doctrines are the MEAT of the gospel. My prayer is that many will stand on the word of God, where we seek that God's name may be glorified, and not ourselves. Not in man's feigned but apparent spiritual blessings, but in true Spiritual blessings.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Stan Pat on October 03, 2007, 05:04:28 PM
those who indeed have the Spirit of God working within them know the difference between Pentecostal babbling/confusion, and the true working of the Holy Spirit.

 I know the true working of the Holy Spirit when I hear it, and I hear it in this post. Funny how twisted doctrines can be so easily accepted, and the straight and narrow doctrines can cause such offense. There are few things that upsets me more than the Pentecostal delusion, but one of them is Christians that try and make excuses for it.

 "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;  The prophets prophesy falsely, and the
priests bear rule by their means;  and my people love to have it so:  and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
(Jer. 5:30,31) 

The faithful looks and sees the very foundations of the truth shaking. And it is a few faithful Christians like you who take up the banner and march forward when others step over it in retreat. Much appreciated!

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Betty on October 04, 2007, 09:12:06 AM
If it was the work of the Holy Spirit, we would not speak evil against it.  It is BECAUSE it is NOT the work of the Holy Spirit that we speak against it.



How do you know it is not the work of the holy spirit? Maybe Apostolic is right, you should be careful of what you say. Do not condemn Pentecostalism.


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I have been to a couple gatherings with Pentecostals and was frightened by their actions. 
Pam
 

 Just because you are scared of the spirit doesn't mean that you should condemn it. Fear is a good thing. It keeps you from blasphemying.

Luke 6:37-38
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". NIV

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Betty on October 04, 2007, 09:17:09 AM
Many do not understand that the doctrines of Pentecostalism and Charismaticism are like a canker or cancer that eats away at the very fabric of the faithful church. Should we include cancer as part of the healthy body, or should we cut it out? You decide!

Oh give me a break. So what you are claiming is that Pentecostals are false Prophets? Is that what you are saying?  If so, I would like biblical justification for that.

Luke 6:37
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". NIV

Where is your biblical justification for judging and condemning.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Betty on October 04, 2007, 09:24:44 AM
Thank you Judy,

The Pentecostal Religion is the Christian Church, just like every other denomination that believes "Jesus is Lord" and salvation comes through Him alone by asking Him into your heart, and for the forgiveness of sins by His precious shed blood on the cross.


First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion.

 Look, I didn't say that, Judy said that. I merely agreed with her. I have seen some very biblical Pentecostal churches just like she has, and I do not think that you should condemn these Churches just because you disagree with their doctrines. You have no right to say they are not of the Church. Yes, that is going too far.

Matthew 7:1-2
 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. NIV

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Anne on October 04, 2007, 06:50:55 PM
Pentecostals

Christianity reborn
From The Economist print edition

A century after its birth Pentecostalism is redrawing the religious map of the world and undermining the notion that modernity is secular

IN 1906 Ambrose Bierce, one of America's finest satirists, published a guide to boloney, “The Cynic's Word Book” or, as it was later rechristened, “The Devil's Dictionary”. Bierce reserved his sharpest barbs for religion. To pray, he said, is “to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy”. Religion is “a daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable”. For Bierce, Christianity was an antiquated superstition with no place in the modern world.

In the same year an itinerant black preacher arrived in Los Angeles. William J. Seymour was “disheveled in appearance”, blind in one eye and scarred by smallpox. He was also on fire with a vision—that Jesus would soon return and God would send a new Pentecost if only people would pray hard enough. He began to preach from a makeshift church in Azusa Street, in a run-down part of town. Soon thousands joined him. People spoke in tongues, floated six feet in the air, or so we are told, and fell to the floor in trances, “slain by the Lord”. The faithful prayed day after day for three years on the trot, and dispatched dozens of missionaries abroad.

At the time, the Azusa Street revival looked like an aberration. Surely the future belonged to the cynical secularists such as Bierce rather than the tongue-speaking preacher like Seymour? Intellectual fashion had turned sharply against religion. Marxists dismissed it as a tool of class oppression; Freudians regarded it as a collective neurosis; economists thought that because it had no market price it had no value; and sociologists, such as Emile Durkheim and Max Weber, pronounced its death rites. The year before, France had passed a tough law banning religion from the public square.

You did not have to be a card-carrying intellectual to think that Azusa Street was a flash in the pan. The Los Angeles Times complained about a “weird Babel of tongues” and a “new sect of fanatics” who “work themselves into a state of mad excitement”. Respectable people were outraged that Seymour encouraged inter-racial worship, particularly given that it involved hugging and ululating. The religious establishment was equally hostile, believing that the future of religion lay in reconciling itself with reason. Fundamentalists condemned Seymour for focusing on the Spirit rather than the Letter. “The last vomit of Satan” was one preacher's verdict on the movement.

Yet, with the possible exception of Europe, history has moved in Seymour's direction rather than Bierce's. The great secular ideologies of the 19th and early 20th centuries—from Marxism to Freudianism—have faded while Seymour's spirit-filled version of Christianity has flourished. Pentecostal denominations have prospered, and Pentecostalism has infused traditional denominations through the wildly popular charismatic movement.

Today there are more than 500m “revivalists” in the world (ie, members of Pentecostal denominations plus “charismatics” in traditional denominations). In a recent survey of Pentecostalism, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life argues that “renewalist movements” are the world's fastest-growing religious movement: the World Christian Database shows that renewalists now make up about a quarter of the world's Christian population compared with just 6% 30 years ago. The evidence of this can be seen everywhere in America and the developing world: in churches the size of football stadiums in Latin America, in 12,000-acre “redemption camps” in Nigeria, in storefront churches in the slums of Rio and Los Angeles. LA's most successful export is not Hollywood but Pentecostalism.

Pentecostals believe in things that set Bierce's teeth on edge. The Pew Forum made a particularly detailed study of ten countries. In all ten large majorities of Pentecostals (ranging from 56% in South Korea to 87% in Kenya) say that they have either experienced or witnessed divine healing. In eight of them majorities say that they have received a “direct revelation from God”. In six countries more than half believe that Jesus will return to earth during their lifetimes—and in all ten more than 80% believe that the faithful will be gathered up before the end of the world and transported to heaven.

Pentecostals take their name from the biblical feast of the Pentecost. Early followers of Jesus who had gathered for the feast were “filled with the Holy Spirit” and able to “speak in tongues”. The curse of Babel was lifted and people from different countries could understand each other. Pentecostals are most akin to Evangelicals in their emphasis on being born again. But they differ from Evangelicals, as well as from other Christians, in their emphasis on the Holy Spirit. They believe not only that the Last Days are coming, but also that the Spirit can enter ordinary mortals and give them extraordinary powers.

Pentecostalism continues to thrive in the land of its birth. Until the 1950s the movement was associated with the margins of American culture—with snake-handlers and rural shacks. Since then it has not only grown—two in every ten Americans see themselves as “charismatics”—but also gone mainstream. In 1974, a thousand people gathered in Washington's respectable-as-it-gets National Cathedral for a service in which many people spoke in tongues. But the movement is at its most vital in the developing world: renewalists make up around 50% of the population in Brazil and Kenya. And in Latin America Pentecostalism has shattered the Roman Catholic Church's monopoly. In Brazil—the world's largest Catholic country and one whose national identity is intertwined with the church—about a seventh of the population is now Pentecostal and a third is “charismatic”. In Guatemala Pentecostalism is sweeping all before it.

The Spirit in Guatemala
The Catholic cathedral still dominates the main square in Guatemala City. But the country is now around 30% Protestant, and six in ten remaining Catholics are “charismatics”. Pentecostal gatherings are ubiquitous in the city. Harold Caballeros, the pastor of El Shaddai, a mega-church with comfortable seats, a bookshop, a café and a broadcasting network, estimates that a new church is born every day, and a whirlwind trip around the city one Sunday suggests that he is right.

Pentecostal services take place everywhere: in respectable hotels (having been kept up most of the night by revellers, your correspondent was woken early on Sunday by the sound of hallelujahs and an amplified rock band); in disused shops in the poor part of town; in huge modern stadiums. The most successful church, Fraternidad Cristiana de Guatemala, is preparing to open a gigantic church, rumoured to be the biggest building in Central America, complete with a “Burger King drive”, seating for over 12,000, parking for more than 3,500 cars, 48 Sunday-school classrooms, a baptism pool with space for hundreds, and a heliport. The building cost $20m, paid in cash.

From the mega churches to the storefronts, these services have striking similarities, down to the ubiquitous Israeli flag (once the Second Coming has taken place in Israel, the Jews will convert to Christianity). They go on for hours without any obvious beginning or end (worshippers wander out for a chat and a coffee). The band works people up into a frenzy. (“God likes music a lot,” says Alex Gonzalez, the Apostle of Jesus Evangelista Church.) Nobody seems to mind if you burst into tears or start hollering. Women come to the stage to testify about the way God has changed their lives. At some point a preacher appears and delivers a lengthy sermon. And for those whose appetites are not sated by all this worship, there are also Christian television channels, Christian radio channels (25 at the last count), Christian restaurants and, during the workday, company-sponsored religious services.

Why has Pentecostalism been so successful? Part of the answer lies in the internal dynamics of the religion. Luis Lugo, the director of the Pew Forum, calls Pentecostals “turbo-charged Evangelicals”. “Conversion is such an emotional moment that you have to share it,” says Mr Caballeros. “Then the people you convert share it. It's a never-ending process. It's exponential.” And they are very good at it. A Pentecostal service is an unforgettable experience, part religious service, part spectacle, part rock 'n' roll rave.

Pentecostalism fills the “ecstasy deficit” left by cooler religionsHarvey Cox, a professor at Harvard, points to two things that have put wind into the movement's sails. One is the fact that it reconnects people with primitive religion: it taps into a deep substratum of primal spirituality, filling the “ecstasy deficit” left by cooler religions. The movement's emphasis on experience rather than doctrine gives it a remarkable ability to absorb other faiths, from spirit possession in the Caribbean to ancestor worship in Africa, from folk healing in Brazil to shamanism in Korea. As the Pentecostals say, “the man with an experience is never at the mercy of the man with a doctrine.”

The other is that Pentecostalism offers a “third way” between scientific rationalism and traditional religion. For many people rationalism is thin gruel. But they are reluctant to return to traditional churches. Pentecostalism offers something different—a religion that is about excitement and emotion, not hierarchy and dogma.

Pentecostalism clearly has a powerful internal dynamic. Still, it would be naive to try to understand the spread of a 500m-strong religion without reference to sociology. What are the social reasons for the movement's success? And what is the social impact of this fast-growing religious movement? The ideas of the four founders of social science—Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, Adam Smith and Max Weber—offer some possible answers.

The Marxist view is that religion is the opium of the people, a false consolation for life's miseries. There is no doubt that Pentecostalism first took off among the poor and the dispossessed and that it offers some dubious consolations. But it is spreading rapidly among the middle classes and the elites. And far from reconciling people to life's miseries, Pentecostalism tends to send them on a mission to fix things—from giving up drinking to reforming society. Opium it ain't.

The Durkheimian view is that religion can be a solution to “anomie”. This is more promising. The developing world is seeing a huge migration of people from the countryside to sprawling cities: Guatemala City's population has surged to over 2.5m today, for example. Pentecostal churches offer a ready-made community and a source of discipline in an urban society rife with temptations. The churches are full of put-upon women who have dragged their men along, hoping to wean them off drink, gambling and other women.

Smith offers a third view: that Pentecostalism thrives because of the effects of competition. Whereas the Catholic Church is a would-be monopoly, Pentecostals create thousands of competing churches. The barriers to entry are low—almost anyone can set up a church—but the pressure to perform is relentless: if you can't preach a mesmerising service, people will go elsewhere. “We have to work against the competition as well as the devil,” says a young preacher.

One result of this is that Pentecostalism draws on the full talents of the population. The Catholic Church is perpetually short of priests, not least because it limits its recruitment to well-educated celibate males. But Pentecostal churches have a genius for elevating charismatic sheep from the flock. They are particularly good at using female talent. Women not only fill the pews. They get up and testify. And they are increasingly becoming preachers in their own right—a particularly striking development in patriarchal Latin America.

Another result is that Pentecostalism is wonderfully innovative. What other Christian movement can produce churches with names like the Mountain of Fire and Miracles (in Nigeria) and the Church of Christ's Spit (in Brazil)? And what other religious movement can produce “hallelujah robotics”—a sort of frenzied dancing and chanting? Churches also make aggressive use of modern media. With its charismatic preachers, dramatic testimonials and miraculous cures, Pentecostalism is telegenic.

Many churches are therefore superb businesses—honed by competition and obsessed with expansion. The Universal Church of the Kingdom of God in Brazil, which was only created in 1977, has more than 2m members today. Its founder, “Bishop” Edir Macedo, owns one of Brazil's largest television stations as well as radio stations, newspapers and a football team. The “cathedral” of the Jotabeche Methodist Pentecostal Church in Santiago, Chile, can seat 18,000. The Yoido Full Gospel Church is the biggest church in the world: every Sunday 250,000 people turn up to worship.

The final explanation is drawn from Max Weber—that Pentecostalism, like Puritanism before it, is an instrument of modernisation. Peter Berger, the dean of sociologists of religion, argues that “Max Weber is alive and well and living in Guatemala City”. Pentecostalism is making dramatic advances among the upwardly mobile. One of the movement's central messages is self-respect—Pentecostals are “dynamite in the hands of God” rather than deferential servants. Relying on ordinary people to spread the word, the churches are particularly good at conveying the rudiments of management. They teach people to speak in public, organise meetings and, as they become more successful, manage large organisations. The bookshops in the mega churches are full of tomes on management as well as spiritual uplift.

This argument is far from perfect. Weber's God remained aloof whereas the Pentecostals' God reaches down to touch the human heart. Pentecostals are restoring much that the Puritans drove out of Christianity, such as visions, miracles and healing cures. It is clearly backward-looking as well as forward-looking—and in its worst forms it is a licence for fraudsters. Before he was caught with a prostitute, Jimmy Swaggart, an Assemblies of God minister, reached 500m viewers a week and attracted an estimated half a million dollars in donations every day. A number of Latin American preachers have a weakness for silk suits and fancy houses.

The movement has also, at times, had a strained relationship with democracy. Guatemala's first Pentecostal president, Efrain Rios Montt, killed tens of thousands of Mayans (and enjoyed the support of American Pentecostals such as Pat Robertson). The head of Los Israelites in Peru took the titles of the Grand Biblical Compiler, Grand and Unique Missionary General, Spiritual Guide, Prophet of God, Master of Masters, Holy Spirit and Christ of the West. Some famous preachers act as power brokers as well as religious leaders.

Pentecostalism is not only burning through the “cities of the dispossessed”. It is also consuming the elites of the developing world.No movement as big and fast-growing as Pentecostalism can be captured in a single phrase. Harvey Cox calls it “diverse, volatile and mercurial”. David Martin, a British sociologist, says that it is “a potent mixture of the pre-modern and the postmodern, of the pre-literate and the post-literate, of the fiesta and the encounter group”. Still, the modernising element seems to have the upper hand right now.

Many of the new generation of Pentecostal preachers, particularly in the biggest churches, are notable for their entrepreneurial and intellectual sophistication. Jorge Lopez, the head of Guatemala's Fraternidad Cristiana, preaches the virtues of entrepreneurialism. Mr Caballeros, who has just returned from a term at Harvard, litters his conversation with references to Weber and Michael Porter, a management guru. He argues that Pentecostalism can lift his country out of poverty by teaching individuals to be thrifty and officials to abandon corruption. His church has founded 11 schools and organised rural medical missions. A hot tip for winning the presidency in 2007, he is now handing his ministry over to his wife in order to devote himself to politics.

Mr Caballeros is not alone in his enthusiasm for politics. Brazil's Universal Church has its own political party. Majorities of Pentecostals in nine of the ten countries studied by Pew said that religious groups should express their views on politics—and sizeable minorities (and a small majority in the United States and Nigeria) said that the government should take steps to make their country a Christian country. This is worrying at the best of times, summoning up ghosts of theocracy; it is particularly alarming in sub-Saharan Africa, where supercharged Pentecostal congregations are bumping up against Islam. A recent seminar on Pentecostalism put on by the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington, DC, attracted people from the entire Washington political machine, including the National Security Council, the vice-president's office, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

There have been repeated warnings over the years that the Pentecostal fire will burn itself out. How can the faithful preserve this level of emotional intensity? And how can they continue to believe in faith-healing and other miracles in the face of the advance of science? So far the warnings have proved empty. Pentecostalism is not only burning through the “cities of the dispossessed” where Seymour found his home. It is also consuming the business and professional elites of the developing world. As for Ambrose Bierce, “The Devil's Dictionary” was republished a couple of years ago, and continues to sell respectably. At the time of writing, it is number 15,290 on Amazon's bestseller list.




Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 05, 2007, 10:24:32 AM
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Many do not understand that the doctrines of Pentecostalism and Charismaticism are like a canker or cancer that eats away at the very fabric of the faithful church. Should we include cancer as part of the healthy body, or should we cut it out? You decide!

Oh give me a break. So what you are claiming is that Pentecostals are false Prophets?
<<<

No, I'm claiming that "the Bible declares that Pentecostals and Charismatics are false prophets" in falsely declaring that God is working miracles through them. Yes, Absolutely! I merely Testify/Witness to what God has said about those who pretend to work the supernatural miracles of speaking for God, when God has not spoken.

Revelation 16:13-14

These are the spirits of devils, working miracles. What kind of miracles? Obviously they are not true miracles from God, but false ones from the spirit of Antichrist. How do we know? Because we try or test the Spirits by the word of God, not by signs or appearances.

One of the many problems of the church is that they have trouble "proving/testing/trying" anything because they just want to get along with everyone. But a false prophet (by definition/i]) is someone who speaks in the name of the Lord, when the lord has not spoken. i.e., a prophet that is false. That's exactly what these people do who are claiming to speak in God tongues and to physically heal by touching someone in God's name. I had one person tell me, "It's easy to see the Spirit of God working in them." That's nonsensical justification. This is "NOT" the Spirit of God, and it is not a true miracle. Like the wise men, the sorcerers and magicians of Egypt who did false miracles in like manner with enchantments, it is an abomination to God and His wrath abides upon them. No matter what the church may decree about their alleged sincerity and good nature.


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 Is that what you are saying? 
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Again, the answer is no. From what I read in scripture, that is what the Bible is saying. Try and follow simple logic if you can't follow the Biblical record. The fact is, "Anyone" who says they are speaking unknown messages that are coming directly from God, when God hath not spoken to them in unknown messages, BY DEFINITION[/b] are false Prophets who are adding words from God to divine revelation. They are speaking for God FALSELY when God has not really spoken to them. I don't care how holy they may appear to be on the outside to some, they are prophets building with unsound theology, and thus their house will inevitably fall.

Ezekiel 22:28

So ...What shall we say then? Oh, they are just misguided prophets, but still of God but who just don't understand? Or shall we tell the truth in accordance with God's word? That is the question.

Philippians 1:27-28

God is saying here that our lives should be a light to answer the darkness, and we should all stand fast that our practices should not degenerate, but correspond to our profession of faith. A true gospel profession demands a gospel conversation of proving truth and faithfulness. Not of lip service, wherein we are frauds practicing deceit. We are not afraid to speak the truth in the humility of God's word in the love of true peace. The emblem and cognizance of Christ's believers is unfeigned "charitable" (agape) love. And the "TRUTH" is that Satan comes in the Church as a Messenger of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2nd Corinthians 11:14). If you think professed Christians are not of Satan unless you can see a forked tail and horns, you are naive. Those who have daubed with untempered mortar, seeing vanity, and "divining lies unto the people, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken," are not misguided, they are deceived and seduced and go forth seducing. And are thus under God's judgment. Believe it or not, it's not something new under the sun, it's the same ole, same ole.

Ezekiel 13:10-14

It's God saying He will judge those who put words in His mouth that He has not spoken, that daub with untempered mortar, that build with Pentecostal bricks. He will spue or vomit them out of His mouth and will leave their house desolate. Is that what I'm saying? You might think that. But it's truly what God has always said. And what man in his willfulness, has never listened to.


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If so, I would like biblical justification for that.
<<<

Biblical justification is as close as the "babbling spirits" that mock God by speaking from the mouths of Pentecostals, as if they were speaking for God.

1st John 4:1

The problem has never been in finding Biblical justification for deciding who are false prophets and who are true prophets, the problem is (and always has been) the carnal sensibilities, the humanistic feelings, the willfulness of man in "not receiving" humbly the truth of what God has inspired written. Why do you think the church is being so greatly seduced and deceived today? Holy Spirit working Grace? No, just the opposite. I've said it 100 times, but it bears repeating, because it's not my words, but God's.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

You think Pentecostals or Charismatics do not receive some vain pleasure in their unrighteous babblings, or some carnal enjoyment from pretending God is speaking to them miraculously? If you don't, then you don't know the nature of man. The problem is (and always has been) the willfulness of man in not receiving humbly the truth of what God has inspired written.
 

Quote
>>>
Luke 6:37
    37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven". NIV
<<<

Luke 6:37

It is the private or personal judging of one's salvation and the private condemning of persons which God forbids, not the witness of the word of judgment. That would be ludicrous since God tells us to witness, warn, testify, and alert that man might change his ways. So to understand this in the manner you suggest would make a mockery out of the Bible. We wouldn't be able to have prisons, put away thieves, judge whether to give a beggar money or not, etc., etc., etc. And this can be proven by scripture rather easily, for the rational, logical, Biblical thinker.

2nd John 1:9-11

Quite a bit different from modernist Christians today who say, Sure, invite them in and maybe we can convince them of the truth by our preaching. An example of humanistic reasoning versus God's word.
 
Now, how does one know who comes to them with another doctrine, and do as God commands in Response, "EXCEPT" he make a judgment? Thus, we all make judgments, even you! Selah!

You see, contrary to "Good Christians" private interpretations, God does want us to judge who is coming with another Gospel, another doctrine, and contrary to the Love-nick New Age Church, God does want us to separate ourselves from them. So you can quote all the scripture "out of context" that you want about judging, because scripture out of context, is Pretext. CLEARLY, from scripture, God does want us to judge if a Gospel is of Christ, and to separate ourselves from those who come with this Other doctrine. My justification? No, the word of God.


Quote
>>>
Where is your biblical justification for judging and condemning.
<<<

We don't condemn, we witness, and the witness of the word from our mouths (as if it were fire itself - Revelation 11:5 ) will judge. In other words, it is the word of God itself that shall judge in the last day (John 12:48). We don't need man's justification to Witness to truth and to testify of God's word against lawlessness, we have a holy unction from God and a Holy commission.

Revelation 22:18

There is God's justification for testifying. Where is the justification of the alleged "Good loving Christians" for doing nothing in the face of the great Pentecostal and Charismatic threat and assault on the church? Where is the justification for their all-inclusive, lukewarm, straddle the line, live-n-let-live apathetic attitudes?

Revelation 3:14-16

I.e., God doesn't want milk-toast, lukewarm, stand-for-nothing Christians. He wants Servants, Watchmen, Ministers and Shepherds. Look up the definition of those words. But like Society today in general, all the Church wants to do is be everyone's friend. Just as tike the Parents who don't want to be Parents to their Children anymore, they want to be friends so their children will like them. It's all of the world and typical irresponsibility of worldliness.
 

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on October 05, 2007, 11:16:21 AM
>>>
First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion.

 Look, I didn't say that, Judy said that. I merely agreed with her.
<<<

Whether Judy, Tony, Bradley, Penne, John, Illuminated, Erik, Andreas, Reformer, Dsouzaanthony, Sue, Kenneth, Pilgrim, whoever. It doesn't really matter who it is that declares something that is not found to be in line with Scripture. We need to take a stand against what is inconsistent with the Bible. I don't often quote authors here, but perhaps this one is pertinent.


"The duty of a theologian is, not to please the ear with empty sounds, but to confirm the conscience by teaching things which are true, certain and profitable."
-John Calvin

We're not men-pleasers here, so if it is contrary to the Biblical teachings, it should be brought to light and rejected. It doesn't matter who said it first Betty, because you gave assent to it so that makes your comment above "totally irrelevant." No need to tap dance around it, it's your position as well.


Quote
>>>
I have seen some very biblical Pentecostal churches just like she has...
<<<

Neither you nor Judy have seen any Biblical Pentecostal churches, because Biblical and "Pentecostal" are not words that are in harmony with each other. It's like me saying that "I've seen some clean shirts that were dirty." It doesn't make sense. If it was dirty, then it wasn't clean, and vice versa. Biblical churches do no falsely claim God is speaking miraculously through them in a babbling language of the Spirit of God. That is a "decidedly" an unbiblical church saying "thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said."

Ezekiel 13:6-7

Sure, a lot of people of the modern church may think that this is a small thing, but God is not a man that He should think that way. The Lord sees such divination in His name as an abomination, not as poor misguided brothers in Christ. Our thoughts are not God's thoughts, neither our ways as God's ways.


Quote
>>>
...and I do not think that you should condemn these Churches just because you disagree with their doctrines.
<<<

I don't merely disagree with their doctrines. My personal opinions are no better than yours. But their doctrines are decidedly unbiblical, and for me to be unmoved, disinterested or apathetic to their doctrines in such a forum would amount to a tacit agreement with their doctrines.

Revelation 2:14

Not saying this is the same thing but clearly God holds it against the church for allowing those with foreign "doctrines" to teach and preach in His body. So while you and others may think it OK to hold to diverse and foreign doctrines in God's church, God says He holds such allowances in the body "against us." Now, you may disagree with God, but you cannot say He doesn't warn His church against such allowances concerning "other doctrines."


Quote
>>>
You have no right to say they are not of the Church. Yes, that is going too far.
<<<

So you do say that, or as you claimed (I didn't say that?)   ???

Nevertheless, contrary to modernist Church opinions, we have every right to say they are not of the church, or that they divine deceitfully and falsely, or that their doctrines are extra-biblical and that they shouldn't be allowed in the body of Christ. Anything less puts us in danger of Revelation 2:14 of allowing those who hold extra-biblical doctrines to teach and preach things that are hard to understand, to cast a stumblingblock before the weaker vessels of the church.

2nd Peter 3:16-18

Yes, we have every right to say they are not of the church who add extra-biblical ideas, nor should be included with us, lest we also (being led away with the error of the wicked) fall from our own steadfastness. Not only a right, an obligation to "stand fast" against such doctrines and such prophets of the babbling spirits.


Quote
>>>
Matthew 7:1-2
 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. NIV
<<<

Matthew 7:1-2

The prohibition is not upon what is faithful doctrines, or of trying or proving the spirits, but of charity concerning salvation. God forgives you, and "thus" you forgive others and do not hold it against them as if they are more evil than you yourself. For we all have feet of clay, and there but for the grace of God go I. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with trying the spirits, judging doctrines, separating ourselves from false teachers and prophets. Because that would make other scriptures contradictory and null and void. And no scripture can contradict another, because in reality it is in harmony with itself and must be read (and understood) that way. not as Pentecostals read it, only from one angle, out of context and emotionally and experientially.

John 7:24

Which of course has been the problem of man from his creation. Judging by what appears to be, rather than by what God says. People of other gospels may appear to be sincere and loving (e.g.: Sikhs, Catholics, Hinduism, Tao, Judaism, etc.), but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the truth of their teachings, nor with the reality of Christianity. We cannot judge by feelings, sentiment, or what seems right in our own eyes.

Proverbs 3:7-8


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Robert Powell on October 05, 2007, 03:36:27 PM
>>>
First of all, it is not going "so far" to say Pentecostals are of another religion.

 Look, I didn't say that, Judy said that. I merely agreed with her.
<<<

Whether Judy, Tony, Bradley, Penne, John, Illuminated, Erik, Andreas, Reformer, Dsouzaanthony, Sue, Kenneth, Pilgrim, whoever. It doesn't really matter who it is that declares something that is not found to be in line with Scripture.

Hey, where's my name, I've been disagreed with too!   :P

 Seriously though, that's probably what they hate about you and what I love about you. You don't play favorites. It's what the word of God says that counts. That's the way it should be.

 On the topic at hand, has anyone read "The Pentecostal Takeover By Lee Stanford?"



https://www.amazon.com/Pentecostal-Takeover-Lee-Stanford/dp/159781010X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+Pentecostal+takeover&qid=1588524168&sr=8-1


.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 05, 2007, 11:17:11 PM
Quote
On the topic at hand, has anyone read "The Pentecostal Takeover By Lee Stanford?"

Hi Robert,

I never heard about Lee Stanford and her book, "The Pentecostal Takeover".  The summary of her book does not surprise me since we already know what is happening in churches today.  The book might just explain what Lee saw in Pentecostal church. 

Erik
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Robert Powell on October 06, 2007, 09:12:38 AM
Hi Robert,

I never heard about Lee Stanford and her book, "The Pentecostal Takeover".  The summary of her book does not surprise me since we already know what is happening in churches today.  The book might just explain what Lee saw in Pentecostal church. 

Erik



 It seems to be right on target with what is taking place in the Church. You say we see, but it seems a lot of people don't see what is going on in the Church with Pentecostals. Some of it is shocking. Do you believe that Pentecostalism is the heresy of another gospel, or are you in the camp that believe these are bible believing christians? Because I think that is what this book points out. That it's so covered in diamonds as to deceive people into thinking it's all good.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 06, 2007, 10:25:28 AM
Quote
It seems to be right on target with what is taking place in the Church. You say we see, but it seems a lot of people don't see what is going on in the Church with Pentecostals. Some of it is shocking.

Agreed. Many, I mean MANY corporate believers (including some are here) believe there are nothing wrong with pentecostal churches, because they will say to you, "Who are we to judge?".  Why can't they understand? For God SAID:     

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


God will cause these people in the church to believe THEIR LIES (signs and wonders, doctrines, false gospel, etc.) BECAUSE they do not love the truth of God's Word through our testimony.  They insisted that Holy Spirit is speaking to them through babbling tongues, etc, despite what we testify against it and we were 'killed' by them.  FOR THIS CAUSE, God will allow them to be deceived by their own false doctrines.

Many Elects thought there are nothing wrong with pentecostal churches at first where they were part of.  But they will not be deceived because they are God's TRUE Elects who will be able to "see" the abomination of desolation in these churches, including the ones that appears Godly but spoke like a dragon. The corporate believers will be offended by Elects' depart out saying "Who are you judge us?", "Look, we have the power of Holy Spirit and Christ, please stay!", or something like, "Well, fine, if you deny Holy Spirit, then you are not really saved", etc., etc.   

Erik

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Nikki on October 06, 2007, 11:11:01 AM

 On the topic at hand, has anyone read "The Pentecostal Takeover By Lee Stanford?"


I've read it. What she does is shed some light on the diabolical nature of the movement, where it is like a trojan horse, that get's inside the Church and then once inside, it opens up and reveals an army to take over.

There was a reformed guy I think here a month ago from overseas who witnessed this was exactly what happened in a Church where he attended. The new Pastor came in with this doctrine, and pretty soon, nearly the whole Church was believing it. That's how Pentecostalism works. I think that is what Tony is warning against also. Some Christians just don't seem to understand how Pentecostalism works. They are another gospel.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

They don't see how Pentecostalism relates to this passage, they see it as simply a different point of view and not another gospel that will take over the Church. I think all of us need to get that message out. Pentecostalism is fiendishly slick when it comes to convincing others it's not another gospel.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: judykanova on October 06, 2007, 12:11:52 PM
I'm beginning to read the materials from links provided regarding the history and underlying nature of pentacostal churches, and admit I spoke in haste, in ignorance, and a degree of sentimentality as I have a dear sister and niece in one of these churches.  I've given her one of the articles which she (thank God) did not reject out of hand.  She knows that I believe that the church in general is steadily falling away from the truths of the Bible -- the reason behind which I haven't attended church in many years.  She also knows the value and necessity of studying the Bible on our own. 

I was very wrong[/u] in my comments and thinking that pentacostalism is merely a misguided difference of interpretation regarding tongues.  I am beginning to see that it is far worse than that, and that even the pretense of tongues is a mockery of God, His Word, and indeed, a mockery of the Holy Spirit. There is subtle (and not so subtle) pressure exerted on its members to practice deceit.  Any way you look at it, this is clearly wrong and cannot be excused.

Let us pray for ourselves and others still in the church, in hope and in accordance to God's perfect will and great mercy that none be lost who belong to Him.

2Ti 2
15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.  


judy
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Shirley on October 06, 2007, 03:42:17 PM
I'm beginning to read the materials from links provided regarding the history and underlying nature of pentacostal churches, and admit I spoke in haste, in ignorance, and a degree of sentimentality as I have a dear sister and niece in one of these churches.  I've given her one of the articles which she (thank God) did not reject out of hand.


judy


I know what you mean. I have family that is in this Church as well, and talking to them is like talking to a brick wall. You're lucky, because my family doesn't even want to hear anything about Pentecostalism being in error. I could offer them a paper, and they wouldn't even take it. So thank God your sister at least is open minded.

All I can do is continue to pray for them, and hope that God might open their eyes to truth someday. Until then, I'llk keep trying to get them to listen to reason and the witness of scripture.

Your post is encouraging to me.  I know I am not alone in this problem with family, I'll keep trying.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on October 09, 2007, 09:02:11 AM
Unlike the Mormons and 7th Day Adventist whose source (person or book) of authority extends beyond the Bible, Pentecostalism (to my knowledge) claims only the Bible.  I therefore would not go so far as to say they have another religion.
judy

Thank you Judy,

The Pentecostal Religion is the Christian Church, just like every other denomination that believes "Jesus is Lord" and salvation comes through Him alone by asking Him into your heart, and for the forgiveness of sins by His precious shed blood on the cross.



Thank you Betty!  You are so right.

Acts 2
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them. 

Enough Said.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on October 09, 2007, 09:03:48 AM
Quote
Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.


That is the same thing my in-laws say about Roman Catholics!


You can't even compare Roman Catholicism to Pentecostalism. we believe in the bible, not the Pope.



Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on October 09, 2007, 09:07:06 AM
Quote
Pentecostals don't mind being the whipping boy of Bible thumpers because it's an act of jealousy. And you can contribute the steady growth lately to the sovereign activity of the Holy Spirit.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_growth_of_Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism is the largest growing movement in Christianity.


No, it's not an act of jealousy in any way.  It's an acknowledgment and/or declaration of their heretical teachings much like the acknowledgment/declaration of the heretical teachings found within the mormon church. 



Don't be ridculous. People in scripture have had the experience of speaking in tongues by baptiism of the Holy Spirit.

I think you don't know Pentecostals. When we speak of spirituality, we mean the lived experience which actualizes a fundamental dimension of all Holy Spirit Baptized human beings. Pentecostal spirituality can be thought of as the lived experience of a particular configuration of beliefs, practices, and sensibilities that put the believer in an ongoing relationship to the Spirit of God. At the Pentecostal service I attended, I had a mystical experience and felt the power of the holy spirit. You want to tell me this is not real? I'm not buying it. Don't condemn what you don't know or understand. baptism of the holy spirit brings speaking in tongues.

Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

So now you have bible proof.



Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Penne on October 09, 2007, 09:53:37 AM
Apostolic,

How do you know for a fact it was the Holy Spirit?  How do you prove it?  You can't!!  Your emotions and enlightening feelings prove nothing!!!
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Erik Diamond on October 09, 2007, 10:07:09 AM
Quote
Acts 2
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Apostolic,

Speaking in tongues has to do nothing with 'babbling' speaking. It has to do with language other than their own native language so that they can spread gospel with men who were visiting Jerusalem from other part of the world/culture/language. This was Lord's Will that Gospel can start spread  outside Judea.  When God see that Gospel have accomplished this, the speaking in tongues started to cease around the closing of canon.

The so-called babbling and gibberish in church today is man-made is not from God.  You were deceived by emotions and sights in apostate church.

Erik
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Pamela on October 09, 2007, 10:19:24 AM
Quote
Apostolic,

How do you know for a fact it was the Holy Spirit?  How do you prove it?  You can't!!  Your emotions and enlightening feelings prove nothing!!!

I think you made a good point Penne.  How do you know it is from God?  It is so easy for us to get caught up in our emotions.  I had a lady say to me that the Holy Spirit led her to me, and that the HS said this, and the HS said that.  At that time, I was very upset with her saying these things.  You could tell it was coming from her and not Him.  This same lady told me not too long ago that she has backslidden.  In other words, she no longer is a Christian, and never was.  Since then she has divorced, and is living with another man.  Living a very worldly life.    Now that is scary.  Where is her fear of the Lord? 

Another lady told me about an experience she had in the hospital when she was very ill, near death.  She said, that the Holy Spirit told her not to wear bangs anymore, because the saints of old didn't wear them!  Now I thought to myself, why in the world would the Holy Spirit tell her not to wear bangs anymore?  Is He supposed to point us to Christ, and not ourselves?

Emotions can be deceiving Apostolic, so be careful!



 
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Penne on October 09, 2007, 12:25:29 PM

Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

So now you have bible proof.



Mark 16:16-18
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Apostolic,

When was the last time you picked up a snake or drank poison?  I know of a very sick child with cancer, are you able to lay your hands on her to completely restore her health?  It's obvious you do not understand these verses. 
You do not speak the Word of God truthfully, therefore, you do not speak in tongues.

Penne
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: midas on October 10, 2007, 01:57:32 AM
Yes Pentecostalism is another or false religion

Miracles or miracle healing = all so called miracle healing is done inside the body but not on the visible outside part of the body. – did apostolic, see a person who was healed when someone lost an arm and the next day another arm appeared. Or they lost a leg and they laid hands on them and another leg came back. Or they had second degree burns on their entire body and the next day all the skin was healed. Their hair caught on fire and all hair was gone, bald. However the next day all the hair grew back. All healing of the body is on the inside. Not outside. And not where an everyday normal person could physically see the healing works. Wonder Why?

Pentecostals are much like the Scribes and Pharisees =  they truly believed in God, they truly believed in the bible (Old Testament Books) as the word of God and they truly believed the Messiah would set up a worldly order. And we all know today that they were dead wrong.

You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?


Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Jonah on October 20, 2007, 12:13:51 PM
 "Talking to my Church elders, they say that Pentecostalism is not another religion, but the same as ours. They feel that they are just not understanding scripture correctly, but are still good christians. That's why they want to have dialogue with them. To try and help them understand correctly. I don't know what to say to that. Is this an accurate assessment, a noble cause, and am I just being too judgmental?  Your help is appreciated."

The above quote is from way back at the beginning of this discussion.  Here's some things to consider.  First of all, in the first two sentences.  Pentecostalism and people are equated.  Was this intended?  Obviously if one was to read all the following posts, many are commenting that they (people) came out of Pentecostalism (religion).  Having dialogue with them (people) is good as the child of God is to be an ambassador for Christ to any person.  However, as others have pointed out here, if "dialogue" here constitutes agreement with or complacency with the doctrine of Pentecostalism then I have ceased to be that faithful ambassador, that salt, that light, that city on a hill that cannot be hid (Matt 5) and confuse the live-giving message of the gospel of the Bible.  I choose my words carefully here.  The fact is that within Pentecostalism, the popular belief is that God still communicates to people today through tongues, visions, etc.  As soon as that kind of idea is embraced, then you have a gospel that is the Word of God, the Bible + something else.  God will not violate His own law (Rev 22:18-19).  Of course, one cannot deny if in the presence of someone that is "speaking in tongues" that either something "supernatural" is going on or that this someone is simply deceivced by their own ideas.  Either way, the Bible speaks loudly:

Satan can break the silence between the natural and supernatural.
2 Corinthians 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Thessalonians 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

We are not to lean on or in any way trust in our own thinking and ideas!
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 ¶ Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

May we lovingly speak the truth of Christ as circumscribed by the Bible alone to whomsoever the Sovereign Lord Christ would bring across our path.  And may we not confuse ideas and false doctrines with the eternal souls of people who need the Saviour. 

Watch and Pray
JONAH

 
 
 
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on February 17, 2008, 08:59:55 AM
"Talking to my Church elders, they say that Pentecostalism is not another religion, but the same as ours. They feel that they are just not understanding scripture correctly, but are still good christians. That's why they want to have dialogue with them. To try and help them understand correctly.

Well now, your church elders seem like reasonable people. Unlike the legalists here, they seem to understand what love is. So instead of back-stabbing them, you should praise their actions and do likewise. Having dialogue with the Pentecostal christians is a good thing because the child of God is to be an ambassador for Christ to all. God does still communicates to people today through tongues, visions, etc. So do not ascribe god's works to the devil. You'll be sorry.

 
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Sue Landow on February 19, 2008, 08:33:45 AM
Well now, your church elders seem like reasonable people. Unlike the legalists here, they seem to understand what love is.

 How many times must people say, compromise with false gospels is not love. Just because you say something repeatedly, doesn't make it true. Those Church elders were in the wrong, just as so many of them these days are. They just don't realize the error of their ways, and that they are destroying good churches. It's sad really. And judgement is upon them.

 Judges 3:5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites:
 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods.
 7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.
 8  Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Rose on February 07, 2009, 09:25:08 AM

 This is a good question. And one that I have not read a legitimate absolute answer to. At least not one I can completely agree with. Is there anyone here who has been a Pentecostal, who can speak from personal experience? What do you think?
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: MaryLouItaly on March 13, 2009, 08:00:21 AM
Actually I'm in a Pentecostal Church (Italian Assemblies of God) and I don't know if you can understand my suffering.
Be reformed and live in a semi-arminian/pelagian church, tongues and miracles addicted is a great proof for my patience and faith. I know that in this world denounce the heresy isn't politically correct, but if we are CHIRSTIAN we have the right to say if a thing is biblical or not.
Augustine of Hippona teach us that this heresy was a big problem also at his time and he wrote various books against this heresy.
If a church teach that the man, fallen in the sin (see Rom. 3:10-12), has the chance to choose to follow God and cooperate with Him for his salvation, you know that there's a big problem. Remember this: NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD, and if your church believe a different thing you know that they are against the Holy Word.

In the end, I believe that also in the Pentecostal church there are true believers/elects, but I also say that the pentecostal gospel is another Gospel

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reformer on March 13, 2009, 09:38:33 AM
Actually I'm in a Pentecostal Church (Italian Assemblies of God) and I don't know if you can understand my suffering.

Well, here I go again. being Mr. Mean guy. What a ridiculous post, with not one scriptural reference for this private interpretation. But self-inflicted suffering is not really suffering, but a form of spiritual sadomasochism. A Pentecostal Church is a false Church (which I have no problem in saying), and good Christians should depart from such abominations. Not pat themselves on the back to remaining within these places.

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Be reformed and live in a semi-arminian/pelagian church, tongues and miracles addicted is a great proof for my patience and faith.

No, it is a great testament to a lack of sound judgment and limitless heretical tolerance. This is not something I would stick my chest out with patience over. Was Lot patient when the Lord told him to come out of Sodom or was he disobedient when he tarried? He was disobedient.

 Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

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I know that in this world denounce the heresy isn't politically correct, but if we are CHIRSTIAN we have the right to say if a thing is biblical or not.

We denounce heresy, we don't denounce heresy in a heretical Church. Just as we don't frequent a whore house to testify that it is full of whores. We don't join a Mosque to testify that its doctrines are without the savior. We don't become a member of planned parenthood to testify to them that abortion is wrong. And neither should we be reformed and a member in a Pentecostal, semi-arminian, pelagian church, tongues speaking, miracle performing Church.

 Mr 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

We can rationalize staying among them if we want, and you are not the first. But that doesn't make faithful christians. It doesn't take patience and faith to stay in such a group, it takes someone with a very high opinion of himself. It is not our job to witness inside false congregations. That has never been the job of believers.


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In the end, I believe that also in the Pentecostal church there are true believers/elects, but I also say that the pentecostal gospel is another Gospel

And I believed in the tooth fairy some years ago, but then I grew up. Grew up physically, emotionally and spiritually. God didn't appoint us to stay in a false Church because we believe someone might still be saved in there, but to leave a false church. There comes a time when we have to understand that our own personal belief is not enough for the true Christian, they have to have sound biblical authority,  the spirit, and good biblical common sense to know the difference between personal opinion and the word. We have to have the spirit to know when to come out from among them.

 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

The spirit gives only true Christians the will and wisdom to know when things are unclean and they must come out from among them. Don't you think God will do the same for that so-called saved person you think might be in there? Or do you think God might miss that one. I have faith that if they really are saved, God will call them out of a false Church just as he has me and the next guy. I don't think myself more powerful than God to watch over his elect.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on March 13, 2009, 10:41:42 AM
The Strange History of Pentecostalism

 http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange1.htm

 Strange Fire!

The Bible warns, "Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).

Certainly this applies to the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. It has rightly been called the glue of the End Times Apostasy. The only protection from it is to obey the Bible and separate from it.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: MaryLouItaly on March 13, 2009, 01:52:11 PM
No, it is a great testament to a lack of sound judgment and limitless heretical tolerance. This is not something I would stick my chest out with patience over. Was Lot patient when the Lord told him to come out of Sodom or was he disobedient when he tarried? He was disobedient.

 Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

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I know that in this world denounce the heresy isn't politically correct, but if we are CHIRSTIAN we have the right to say if a thing is biblical or not.

We denounce heresy, we don't denounce heresy in a heretical Church. Just as we don't frequent a whore house to testify that it is full of whores. We don't join a Mosque to testify that its doctrines are without the savior. We don't become a member of planned parenthood to testify to them that abortion is wrong. And neither should we be reformed and a member in a Pentecostal, semi-arminian, pelagian church, tongues speaking, miracle performing Church.

 Mr 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

We can rationalize staying among them if we want, and you are not the first. But that doesn't make faithful christians. It doesn't take patience and faith to stay in such a group, it takes someone with a very high opinion of himself. It is not our job to witness inside false congregations. That has never been the job of believers.


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In the end, I believe that also in the Pentecostal church there are true believers/elects, but I also say that the pentecostal gospel is another Gospel

And I believed in the tooth fairy some years ago, but then I grew up. Grew up physically, emotionally and spiritually. God didn't appoint us to stay in a false Church because we believe someone might still be saved in there, but to leave a false church. There comes a time when we have to understand that our own personal belief is not enough for the true Christian, they have to have sound biblical authority,  the spirit, and good biblical common sense to know the difference between personal opinion and the word. We have to have the spirit to know when to come out from among them.

 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

The spirit gives only true christians the will and wisdom to know when things are unclean and they must come out from among them. Don't you think God will do the same for that so-called saved person you think might be in there? Or do you think God might miss that one. I have faith that if they really are saved, God will call them out of a false Church just as he has me and the next guy. I don't think myself more powerful than God to watch over his elect.
I've discovered the reformed faith while I was in the Assemblies of God... Where I live I haven't a choice: go in a roman-catholic church, jehowah witness, or pentecostal church (not only Assemblies of God but also Benny Hinn followers). I prefere to stay in this church than stay alone at home. You are 'lucky' because evidently you have the chance to attend a reformed church near you.
Stay alone, in a semi-catholic family & atmosphere, is the worst thing that I could make.Now, I've the chance to share the gospel of salvation, at home alone I'll share the gospel at the wall.
I know that it isn't easy to understand my situation, because you must find you in this particular situation in order to understand it.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reformer on March 15, 2009, 02:36:37 PM
I've discovered the reformed faith while I was in the Assemblies of God.

Many people here have come from false Churches. I discovered the Reformed faith while I was in a Dispensationalist Church. What has that to do with anything? Was I supposed to stay there and work it out arguing with the Dispensationalists just because I thought someone saved was there? God, no.

 Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


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.. Where I live I haven't a choice: go in a roman-catholic church, jehowah witness, or pentecostal church (not only Assemblies of God but also Benny Hinn followers).

You had another option. "none of the above". But you, and so many others, choose to ignore that biblical option.


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I prefere to stay in this church than stay alone at home.

When you are Christian, you are never alone. And when you are chatting with other Christians, you are fellowshipping with the assembly of God.

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You are 'lucky' because evidently you have the chance to attend a reformed church near you.

Not so lucky. There is no real reformed church in my area. Only the new and improved reformed street church hucksters, methodist, and Pentecostal. Which I would never join. I chose to serve God rather than myself in joining with these groups.


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Stay alone, in a semi-catholic family & atmosphere, is the worst thing that I could make.

Christianity is not about atmosphere, it is about worship, grace and evangelizing. All tied together. A Pentecostal Church does none of these. Pentecostal claims notwithstanding.

 Eze 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

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Now, I've the chance to share the gospel of salvation, at home alone I'll share the gospel at the wall.

Let me see if I have this right. You attend a false church so you can share the gospel of salvation. But outside this false church in the world, you can't do that? You can only share with the wall? That's not true at all. I share the gospel daily. You don't need a false church to share the gospel, you are simply trying to justify going tho a false Church. Why do you think God said to Israel not to mix two different kinds of threads together? Because you cannot have Godly people and ungodly people serving the same God in the same temple. Be ye separate.

 Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.


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I know that it isn't easy to understand my situation, because you must find you in this particular situation in order to understand it.

Nope! I don't believe that. But I'm sure you'll find a few here who do. particular situations don't change the word of God. I don't have to experience a false Church in order to know I've got to stay there and get someone saved. I know God does that, and I know he doesn't want me there. That's good enough for me.

 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: SavedByGrace on March 19, 2009, 12:23:43 AM
On Speaking in Tongues
by J. Paul Reno

The following material is not to be taken as either a recommendation or a condemnation of speaking in tongues. (I Corinthians 14:39) The purpose is simple. If speaking in tongues is of God, then it must conform to God's rules. However, conforming to these rules does not guarantee that it is of God. If speaking in tongues breaks the rules of God, then it is not of God. If it keeps the rules, then we should try the spirit to see if it is the Holy Spirit. (I John 4:1-1)
If you are spiritual, you will accept the authority of God's Word on this subject of His rules on the tongues issue. (I Corinthians 14:37) If you desire to be ignorant in this area, you will succeed! (I Corinthians 14:38)
The term "tongues" will be used to refer only to that which is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. In that tongues are being counterfeited by demons and/or the flesh, these rules apply only to that which is of God.

1. Do not covet or seek to speak in tongues. (I Corinthians 12:31,28)
2. Tongues are worthless if you don't have true love. (I Corinthians 13:1)
3. True tongues will not cause divisions in the Church, but rather will establish unity. (I Corinthians 12:25) . . . There will be no confusion caused by the tongues, but the result will be peace. (I Corinthians 14:33) . . . All things, tongues included, are to be done decently and in order. (I Corinthians 14:40)
4. Not all saved will be able to speak in tongues. (I Corinthians 12:30,10,11)
5. Tongues are the least important and least valuable of all gifts (I Corinthians 12:28,30), and therefore should not usurp the more important gifts of the Holy Spirit.
6. Five words spoken with understanding are more important than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue (I Corinthians 14:19), and therefore tongues will not replace teaching and preaching.
7. Tongues are not to be used unless they edify others. (I Corinthians 14:26,23)
8. There must be at least two, but no more than three speaking when tongues are used. (I Corinthians 14:27)
9. These two or three are to take turns speaking. (I Corinthians 14:27)
10. There is to be one interpreter--no more, no less. (I Corinthians 14:27)
11. If there is no interpreter, there is to be no speaking. (I Corinthians 14:28)
12. Women are not permitted to speak either in tongues or interpreting. (I Corinthians 14:34)
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: SavedByGrace on March 19, 2009, 12:25:25 AM
On Speaking in Tongues
by J. Paul Reno

The following material is not to be taken as either a recommendation or a condemnation of speaking in tongues. (I Corinthians 14:39) The purpose is simple. If speaking in tongues is of God, then it must conform to God's rules. However, conforming to these rules does not guarantee that it is of God. If speaking in tongues breaks the rules of God, then it is not of God. If it keeps the rules, then we should try the spirit to see if it is the Holy Spirit. (I John 4:1-1)
If you are spiritual, you will accept the authority of God's Word on this subject of His rules on the tongues issue. (I Corinthians 14:37) If you desire to be ignorant in this area, you will succeed! (I Corinthians 14:38)
The term "tongues" will be used to refer only to that which is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. In that tongues are being counterfeited by demons and/or the flesh, these rules apply only to that which is of God.

1. Do not covet or seek to speak in tongues. (I Corinthians 12:31,28)
2. Tongues are worthless if you don't have true love. (I Corinthians 13:1)
3. True tongues will not cause divisions in the Church, but rather will establish unity. (I Corinthians 12:25) . . . There will be no confusion caused by the tongues, but the result will be peace. (I Corinthians 14:33) . . . All things, tongues included, are to be done decently and in order. (I Corinthians 14:40)
4. Not all saved will be able to speak in tongues. (I Corinthians 12:30,10,11)
5. Tongues are the least important and least valuable of all gifts (I Corinthians 12:28,30), and therefore should not usurp the more important gifts of the Holy Spirit.
6. Five words spoken with understanding are more important than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue (I Corinthians 14:19), and therefore tongues will not replace teaching and preaching.
7. Tongues are not to be used unless they edify others. (I Corinthians 14:26,23)
8. There must be at least two, but no more than three speaking when tongues are used. (I Corinthians 14:27)
9. These two or three are to take turns speaking. (I Corinthians 14:27)
10. There is to be one interpreter--no more, no less. (I Corinthians 14:27)
11. If there is no interpreter, there is to be no speaking. (I Corinthians 14:28)
12. Women are not permitted to speak either in tongues or interpreting. (I Corinthians 14:34)
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Frank Mortimer on March 19, 2009, 08:36:02 AM
The following material is not to be taken as either a recommendation or a condemnation of speaking in tongues. (I Corinthians 14:39)

I had to chuckle when I read this first line because it is just so typical of Christians. Wishy-washy all the way. Not for or against anything. Is that any way that God wants his people to be? Can we not take a stand on anything as being unbiblical? I have a friend who always says "I'm not going to condemn Christian Rock and Roll as wrong, but I'm not going to say it is right either". I just don't understand these Christians. Make a decision for Pete's sake. Stand for something.

Anyway, that's just my rant for today.

My stand is that Pentecostalism is another religion, speaking in tongues (or what passes for it today) is of the devil, because it most certainly is not of God, and yet proclaims to be. The healing ministries are shams, scams and shenanigans.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: SavedByGrace on March 19, 2009, 12:08:25 PM
Frank,

Thank you for your comment but your point has been made many times before and seems to be non-applicable here.

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The following material is not to be taken as either a recommendation or a condemnation of speaking in tongues
“typical of Christians. Wishy-washy all the way. Not for or against anything.”

If you will notice that the above article was not written to recommend or condemn anything, but only to give some guidelines for speaking in tongues.  From what you see, you be the judge of what is going on in the churches today as to whether they follow the Biblical guidelines set forth by the Bible or not. 
This is a test ---- only a test.

Bill
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Frank Mortimer on March 19, 2009, 03:08:03 PM
Frank,

Thank you for your comment but your point has been made many times before and seems to be non-applicable here.


Hi Bill N june,
  How so?

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Quote
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The following material is not to be taken as either a recommendation or a condemnation of speaking in tongues
“typical of Christians. Wishy-washy all the way. Not for or against anything.”

If you will notice that the above article was not written to recommend or condemn anything, but only to give some guidelines for speaking in tongues.

I know it wasn't. That's what I was getting at. If Christians are for speaking in tongues and think that it is biblical, they should say it. If they are against speaking in tongues, and think that it is unbiblical, they should say that too. If they are ignorant of the issue, they should find out if it is or is not, or not speak about it. But don't say I'm not going to recommend or condemn it either. I think that's wrong. Doesn't scripture say somewhere, "don't give an uncertain or non descript sound"?  At least that is what I believe.


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From what you see, you be the judge of what is going on in the churches today as to whether they follow the Biblical guidelines set forth by the Bible or not. 

Well of course, a bllind man can see that they do not follow the rules. And I suspect the author is more against it than for it. But I'm more concerned about the "base" issue that theologians don't seem to know that whether Christians were to following the rules or not today, it still would be unbiblical. Because speaking in tongues, as they define it, is unbiblical period!

To tell you the truth, I have more respect for theologians who will stand up and say plainly, "speaking in tongues are valid today", than for theologians who hem and haw saying they are not going to condemn it or recommend it. They are more dangerous than those who flat out preach Pentecostalism. The subtle is always more dangerous.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Chicago Bear on March 21, 2009, 11:30:37 AM
Reaching Those Still Trapped in Charismatic Chaos!
by Robin Arnaud

Decades ago when bible-based churches and denominations first examined and weighed the teachings and impact of the Charismatic movement, they largely deemed it to be a benign and relatively harmless popular movement toward informal liturgy and enthusiasm, with a few peculiar practices such as speaking in tongues tied on. It has only rarely been examined by church courts in all the years since, but in the intervening years the Charismatic movement has morphed into a shrouded form of renegade gnosticism that threatens not only the doctrines of the faith once delivered, but the spiritual well being of the people and churches in which it has been given room to flourish. Much of today’s Charismaticism bears little resemblance to biblical Christianity beyond the nominal employment of “Christian” identity and the use of historically Christian terms and organization.

Those of us who have been plucked from the storm and newly planted on the firm foundation of God’s infallible Word share a deep burden for those still caught in the seduction and superstition of the movement. Just as we once longed to see our non-Charismatic friends and loved ones who we felt were “caught in cold, dead orthodoxy” become “liberated” into the “move of God in the gifts and fullness” of the Charismatic movement, we now long to see them return with us to the certainty and stability of the faith once delivered to the saints. Having been ourselves once seduced by the illusion of signs and wonders like those known to the first century Church, we understand all too well why those still lost in that world would wish to stay.

Millions today are fleeing from Pentecostalism’s disastrous, lingering effects. The majority of those who finally see the hollowness and deception of Pentecostalism leave the movement and remain unchurched for the remainder of their lives. But there are many who turn back to the Bible, back to the roots of their Christian heritage in search of purity, simplicity, and genuineness in their faith. Historically orthodox churches have not ministered effectively to these “refugees.” It is not for any lack of love for them, nor because ex-Charismatics have not sought help from orthodox churches. Rather it is in large part because most non-Charismatic churches simply do not understand what today’s Charismatic teachers are meting out in the name of Jesus, nor why so many find Pentecostalism so appealing.

“Non-liturgical” appeal won’t help

“Contemporary” church services and “relaxed” liturgies do not offer a viable alternative to the Charismatic experience. Upbeat music and casual dress are seen as cheap substitutes for the very real thrill of expectancy that is characteristic of Charismatic gatherings. Knowing that the Spirit has liberty to move in any way He wishes; expecting to witness a “manifestation of the Spirit” rather than following a pre-printed script or having an informal sing-along and sermon, Charismatics and Pentecostals truly anticipate a close encounter with God when they gather together. Their non-Pentecostal counterparts really ought to do the same. We are there to meet God; and He has promised to disclose Himself to those who love Him (John 14:21). He is genuinely present among even two or three who gather in His name (Matthew 18:20). Yet all too often we gather as if to pay homage to a distant God, with no real expectation that He’ll actually show up, let alone show up and do what He has promised in the above verses. That sense of expectation and openness to whatever God might do is part of the appeal of Pentecostalism. That is what they think they’d be giving up if they come out of Pentecostalism. We must demonstrate that their fear is not justified! But all too often our churches appear to demonstrate just the opposite.

Reason Won’t Help

Charismatics are taught that logic and reason are “man’s wisdom” and are not to be employed or trusted by people who walk “by the Spirit.” Just as the ancient Gnostics drew a sharp line of division between soul and body (all that is of the body was thought to be temporary and inconsequential while all that is of the soul was said to be eternal and good), so many in Pentecostalism and its offspring maintain a distinction between “soul” (temporal reason, logic) and “spirit” (eternal and that which transcends human comprehension). And just as the Gnostics disregarded the body to pursue their secret knowledge, so also the Charismatics abandon reason to “experience life in the spirit.” Charismatics can point to Scriptures like 1st Corinthians 2:9-16 and 2nd Corinthians 3:6 to justify this abandonment of reason and to distort the plain meaning of the Scriptures that command us to “study to show yourself approved (2nd Timothy 2:15)” and to stand fast and continue in sound doctrine (1st Timothy 4:6, 6:3, 20; 2nd Timothy 1:13 and 3:14-17; 4:3; Galatians 1:8-9 and many more). “The letter kills,” they warn, “but the Spirit gives life!” The entire original context of that saying (2nd Corinthians 3:6) has nothing whatever to do with reason-versus-revelation, but rather lawkeeping-versus-faith! Faith is not an alternative to reason, as they would have us believe. Rather, faith is supposed to result from Spirit led reasoning from the Scriptures (Isaiah 1:18, Acts 17:2, 18:4), for “the law is our tutor to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).” Yet Charismatics have been taught to dismiss reason as “a hindrance to the spirit.”

Religious Addiction

What we are really dealing with in our Charismatic friends is religious addiction. It is every bit as real and as damaging as any other addiction. And like most addicts, only those who are brought low enough to see the truth finally seek help, or give up hope. It is only when the drink or the drug or the pleasure fails to deliver as promised — over and over again — that the addict is finally prepared to listen to reason. When a soul is seduced by the empty promises of Charismaticism and reason is dismissed as a hindrance, the grip of this heresy tightens incredibly. One trapped in its hold seldom is prepared to reemploy long-abandoned reason until real drought and famine have set in. A Charismatic has to want help before he or she can accept it. As long as they remain content in Pentecostal delusion and satisfied with the ear-tickling, soul-thrilling “high” it conveys, they will not hear our pleas to return to what they consider to be the bondage of “cold, dead orthodoxy.”

How can we help them?

Prayer is the most effective help we as Christians can offer to anyone — saved or lost, bound or free, sick or well, aware of the danger or seduced by its allure. At some point or another, the false teachings they cling to will fail them. Pentecostalism hedges its bets by blaming the victim; sometimes for “lack of faith,” sometimes for “hiding unconfessed sin,” and sometimes due to demonic oppression. Their prescriptions for these maladies always involve some equivalent of hypnosis, further feeding on subjective emotion and deepening the grip of cultish soul addiction. By keeping their captives seeking after that which they already have in Christ, these wolves attack the heart of the gospel; the fullness of Christ, and the sufficiency of His finished work. They claim that believers don’t “experience” what Christ has won for them because of some failure on their part — never on the failure of their own teachings! But at some point, often a point of utter despair, a broken Charismatic may actually be willing to question the doctrines of their teachers. It is at that point that they may be willing to reason from the Scriptures.

The Truth is Unchanging

The Bible never changes and is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. That simple fact becomes an anchor for the despairing Charismatic, who by now may be questioning everything they’ve ever been taught. The Bible is a bridge back, a reminder that though winds of doctrine change constantly, the plain teachings of God’s word have never changed. The simple disciplines of Bible study and catechism that so many of us take for granted are either completely foreign to Charismatics or were dismissed long before as unnecessary relics of “dead orthodoxy.” But having tried all the Charismatic remedies without success, even the most despairing ex-Charismatic who doesn’t abandon the faith altogether may be willing to revisit the old tried-and-true tools that have sustained the Church throughout the centuries. Their search for purity, simplicity, and rest may finally drive them back to the unchanging word of God as it is revealed in the Bible.

The Reformation Revisited

At a time centuries ago when the Bible was not available to most people, the gospel was buried in Roman Catholic malpractice, superstition, and corruption. So it is today in the Charismatic movement. The Bible is pushed aside except as a prop for “proof texting” popular teachings and for lending credibility to some “prophetic word.” The truth is obscured for the sake of keeping the sheep in bondage to the influence of corrupt wolves and hirelings who care not for the sheep, but for themselves (Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23). Modern Charismaticism is exactly like Roman Catholicism was in the Middle Ages; steeped in unbiblical superstitions, false doctrines, and control over the flock.

The solution today is exactly the same as it was back then — a return to the Scriptures; a new reformation that absolutely insists upon the supremacy of the Scriptures in determining what is so and what is not. But now even as in those days, it is not to be a “just me and my Bible” approach! The Bible is to be interpreted according to “the analogy of faith” as the early fathers called it — the foundations laid by Christ and the Apostles. As inspired interpreters of the Old Testament, it is their interpretations of the Old Testament and their sayings and writings in the New Testament that formed the basis for all generations to follow. The Church is called “the pillar and ground of the truth” in 1st Timothy 3:15, and its “common confession” (verse 16) of the Christian faith appears over and over again in the “faithful sayings, worthy of acceptation (1st Timothy 1:15, 3:1, 4:9, 2nd Timothy 2:11, Titus 3:8, Revelation 22:6)” and elucidated in the ancient creeds of the Christian faith. Those “faithful sayings” that Paul and John refer to are the most ancient creeds! They were the “rule of faith,” the basis for all interpretation of Scripture. It is this rule of faith and the Scriptures alone that the Reformation restored to the Church. And it is exactly the same that must be restored to those emerging from modern-day Babylon.

Reaching Those Still Trapped in Charismatic Chaos is an article by Robin Arnaud.


Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: beelsls on March 22, 2009, 01:45:41 PM
I would agree that pentacostalism is chaos but so are the Methodists, Lutherins, Presbaterians, Catholics Etc.  Robin Arnaud spends alot of time and uses alot of words to show his concern for those "TRAPPED in CHARISMATIC CHAOS". While I believe its nice to have compashon for the lost it is my understandind that we have no power to save anyone; that GOD is the only one that can change someones heart. I also believe that not one of GODS  elect will be left behind in any cult. JESUS told us to preach the TRUTH and HE will do the rest.
We all worry about and pray for our lost family and friends no matter what they are involved in, however the only one we can hope has a plan for their salvation is GOD.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: da525382 on October 17, 2009, 11:10:27 AM
Just curious if anyone here knows about or has had any experience with reformed/charismatic churches?   Here is a website of interest:

                                                  www.charismaticreformed.org (http://www.charismaticreformed.org)

Can being reformed coexist with the teaching of the continuing ongoing nature of the spiritual gifts?  I recall the scripture where Paul states all are given gifts of teaching, healing, faith, etc. Yet, I know many argue they at some point ceased.  Some have said when the last apostle died, they ceased.  Others have said when the last word of scripture was penned, they ceased, one reason being that scripture was purposed to replace the Holy Spirit.....that particular interpretation really seems stretched to me as I do not see the Holy Spirit withdrawing himself from this world over written words he has inspired himself teaching us to rely on the Him, i.e., live by the Spirit.  However, their argument is that when we read the Bible and live by it we precisely are "living by the Spirit".  I just, however, do not think this is what Paul meant by "living by the Spirit", for if we reduce the Spirit to another law of the written letter, we simply place ourselves back under "the law", we're back in Galatia, it seems to me, and furthermore it seems to actually tend to drive one dangerously close to bibliolatry......

However, the scriptural support for the cessation has always seemed to me to be tenuous, at best....I've heard reference to when "the perfect" comes, meaning "the perfect" is the completed Bible, but I just don't see that that interpretation necessasrily follows, it seems to be a stretch as Christ Himself alone is our perfection.  Anyway, just thought I'd see what your thoughts might be here.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reformer on October 18, 2009, 02:11:21 PM
Just curious if anyone here knows about or has had any experience with reformed/charismatic churches?   Here is a website of interest:

Can being reformed coexist with the teaching of the continuing ongoing nature of the spiritual gifts?


In the old days, no. But in today's Church "Reformed" has come to mean anything that anyone wants it to mean. If you merely believe in some form of predestination, you can be Reformed :(  You can be 2 point Calvinists and be Reformed and in good standing or a 4 point Calvinist. You can be a Charismatic Reformed Church or a Pentecostal Reformed Church. You can be Baptist Reformed or Methodist Reformed. Everything has been turned upside down.

But in my view, the Reformed Church and Charismatic Church are antithetical to each other. But you can go to the next Reformed forum and they'll tell you how the gifts have always been in the Reformed Church.  So you just have to decide for yourself what is biblical. Because the church can't tell you. They are too busy trying to please everyone. In Reformed theology, the bible has to tell you.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: ray on November 05, 2011, 08:04:58 AM
Quote
This is a good question. And one that I have not read a legitimate absolute answer to. At least not one I can completely agree with. Is there anyone here who has been a Pentecostal, who can speak from personal experience? What do you think?

Rose
By Gods grace I have been spared the horrors of pentecostalism, although growing up Reformed and being called the frozen chosen wasn't always a tag to wear on ones sleeve either, but , hey , it was minor compared to what was going on in the other camp. Therefore , i can't really answer your question from experience , but thats not all bad, because I believe that answering this from a biblical perspective is the definitive way to go. I know that many previous posts on this thread have addressed many of the issues, ie tongues, false healing, false prophecy etc , and they are all things that need to exposed, but if I could say that one of the most galling things that one could level against pentecostalism is the way it so callously renders the gospel.
I beleive that nothing could be simpler and clearer that the gospel that Peter declared on the day of pentecost, and in Acts 2:28 we read;

Then Peter said to them Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins , and ye shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.


Now , how on earth could anyone blur and obfuscate that to the point where Pentecostals believe that a second spirit baptism is required , is beyond me . How can there be confusion, this is very same gospel that Jesus charged the disciples to preach unto all the world, wherein we read in Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father , and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Again , where's the confusion , Paul affirms that we are sealed with the Spirit when we first believed and repented.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth , the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.


To me , it is beyond doubt that Pentecostalism is preaching another gospel, it is not a gospel to salvation , but one to damnation . The accounts that are given regarding the requirements for this " second baptism " make for headshaking reading, it really is woeful. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God , both a necessary and a comforting gift. That Pentecostalism so distorts the clear and biblical teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit stands as a banner to its falsehood. Once upon a time , if you wanted to encounter a pentecostal you had to go their church , nowadays , they come to you and takeover your church, its pretty sad.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tim Norton on December 15, 2013, 02:01:15 PM
I would agree that pentacostalism is chaos but so are the Methodists, Lutherins, Presbaterians,

I don't agree with that at all. Not in the least bit. Pentecostalism can in no way be equated to Presbyterianism or even Lutheranism. Pentecostalism is another gospel in that it casts out devils by the power of devils, adds to God's word and deceitfully claim it's doing miracles through God. You cannot put these Churches in the same category.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Spencer on May 03, 2020, 12:59:11 PM
I know this is an old thread, but I've read through every single post and though this is a very controversial and divisive topic, I have from reading all the posts and links come to believe both Charismaticism and Pentecostalism are false gospels. Thank you all for your very instructional posts and links that helped me come to that conclusion.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reggie Matthews on May 04, 2020, 06:57:25 AM
What do you think about this article on Reformed Charismatics? How do you tell him he's not Reformed? How do you tell him he believes a false doctrine?

https://network.crcna.org/blog/what-reformed-charismatic
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Betty on May 04, 2020, 03:19:45 PM
I know this is an old thread, but I've read through every single post and though this is a very controversial and divisive topic,

And that is why most Christians do not attempt to broach the subject because we believe in promoting Christian Unity instead of divisiveness. We believe in Christian liberty, the idea that we are free to believe whatever we want as long as we believe in Christ. We're not saved by doctrine, we are saved by Christ. I never condemn anyone who believes in the holy spirit.


Quote
I have from reading all the posts and links come to believe both Charismaticism and Pentecostalism are false gospels.

Careful that you are not swayed by the very false teachers who say those who believe in the working of the spirit are false teachers. Do not be swayed by men over the spirit.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 04, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
Quote
We believe in Christian liberty, the idea that we are free to believe whatever we want as long as we believe in Christ.

In other words, Christians like you want to believe Christ, but want to do their way too.  Their doctrine typically means professed Christians who believe their own defination of "love" and "unity," thinking they can choose to do theirs THEIR way.  They wants keep their sins instead of doing God's will.  Their doctrine has replaced biblical Jesus Christ with their own Christ that winks at their sins. This is what "Christian liberty" is about.  This is NOT the "first love" nor "first works" but the "new love" and works according to their flesh that is now growing in the churches today.  This breeds apostasy and desolation.  God has warned us not to abandon your FIRST LOVE.  Do you even know what is the first love or first works are, don't you, Betty?

Revelation 2:4-5 KJV
[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Ga 5:13-14
(13) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
(14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The professed Christians like you want to accept everyone without judging them. Without warning them about hell. Without warning them the need for repentence. Without the warning about Homosexuality, cursing, divorcing and remarriage, drinking, murder, or lying, etc.  These are of the flesh and these are a rebellion to God. Not only one who refuse to repent but also refuse to warn people about their sin is a rebellion to God! That is why the judgment has come upon unfaithful church as God has warned her many times in Scripture that those has not repent of their sin nor return to first love and first works will suffer it. 
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Joanne on May 04, 2020, 07:16:26 PM
Ga 5:13-14
(13) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
(14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


 )preach_( And do not use liberty as an excuse to make your word God's word.  Amen Erik.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Reformer on May 05, 2020, 10:37:17 AM
What do you think about this article on Reformed Charismatics?

I think it's a contradiction in terms, and it's based on a lot of subjection, misapplication, and a lack of understanding of tokens, figures, types, signs, representations, and shadows. First of all, he starts out with the false premise that if we don't believe in the Charismatic doctrines, we are limiting the Holy Spirit by putting it in a box. That's a very flawed premise, like saying if we say God can't lie we're putting him in a box. He seems to let his personal experiences dictate how we all should think about the way the holy spirit will work. It's all based on his supposition and not the sound exegesis of scripture.


Quote
How do you tell him he's not Reformed?


I don't tell him he's not Reformed, I tell him he is misinformed. I attempt to demonstrate how the doctrine he believes in is not only not supported by the careful consideration of scripture, in context, and consistent with itself, but is contrary to it. What does Reformed even mean in our day? Next to nothong.

Quote
How do you tell him he believes a false doctrine?

I witness to him what the scripture actually says, in context, and balanced consistently with the whole bible and how it defines the text. In other words, I witness the truth to him and whether he believes it or not is up to that same spirit that he claims he is so respectful of its work. Its work is truth and one of its missions is revelation.


Quote
He says:
"What is a Reformed Charismatic? First and foremost, a Reformed Charismatic is that person who seeks to harmonize the dominant convictions of the Reformed faith, as articulated by people like John Calvin, with those of Pentecostals like the outstanding New Testament scholar Gordon Fee."

I don't seek to harmonize the dominant convictions of the Reformed faith as articulated by people like John Calvin, I seek to harmonize my beliefs with the teachings of God's word, and this is a very different principle than his. I don't attempt to harmonize the convictions of John Calvin with those of Pentecostals like the scholar Gordon Fee, I harmonize the doctrines I hold with the doctrine of God's word. This is where he and others have gone astray. Lifting up experiences, sentiments, traditions, Calvinism, man's testimonies, and scholars like Gordon Fee above the word of God.


Quote
He says:
"In particular, the Reformed Charismatic affirms the conviction of the Pentecostal tradition that the Holy Spirit may choose and often does work today as the Spirit worked in the first century."

It is my belief that the truly Reformed "Christian" affirms the convictions of the children of God that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that works truth, not of man's vain desire to perform signs that have already been revealed and are now being fulfilled in the working of the Spirit. Revealed in our preaching the gospel to all tongues, healing the sick, and raising the dead. No one is limiting the Spirit, in fact it is this working of the Spirit shown in our bearing witness to these truths. The working of the Holy Spirit is our testimony to truth, not our incoherent utterances pretending to be the working, or our miraculous physical healings, or our holy laughter, or any other such Charismatic nonsense. That's not limiting the Spirit, that's testimony to the truth that it is.

Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;
27 and ye also do testify, because from the beginning ye are with me.

We can see that the working of ther Holy Spirit is in our faithful testimony. That is what I would tell the "Reformed Charismatic." The truth.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Mark on May 05, 2020, 06:15:51 PM
 )GoodPopst(
Amen Reformer, like the word reformed today is misused, likened to how the word evangelical which used to preach salvation by grace alone but our day it is associated with liberal free will gospels. It reminds me of that dark saying.

Proverbs 22:28
Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.

How she has fallen and become a habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Chicago Bear on May 06, 2020, 05:19:43 PM
What do you think about this article on Reformed Charismatics?

I think it's a contradiction in terms, and it's based on a lot of subjection, misapplication, and a lack of understanding of tokens, figures, types, signs, representations, and shadows. First of all, he starts out with the false premise that if we don't believe in the Charismatic doctrines, we are limiting the Holy Spirit by putting it in a box. That's a very flawed premise, like saying if we say God can't lie we're putting him in a box. He seems to let his personal experiences dictate how we all should think about the way the holy spirit will work. It's all based on his supposition and not the sound exegesis of scripture.

 )GoodPopst( Reformer. I don't think they truly understand the purpose of signs to even know what speaking in tongues or healing the physically sick pointed to. If they got that part down first I think the rest would fall into place.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Philly Dawg on May 06, 2020, 07:47:50 PM
 )ditto(
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Melanie on May 07, 2020, 08:24:08 PM

Proverbs 22:28
Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.



And they are definitely being moved, and in many cases completely eliminated.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 08, 2020, 09:46:49 PM
I don't think they truly understand the purpose of signs to even know what speaking in tongues or healing the physically sick pointed to.

Oh we don't? Then why not enlighten us lowly ignorant folk on what the elitist hierarchy of the church thinks it points to? Because in my book, speaking in tongues means speaking in tongues, and healing the sick means healing the sick. What book are you reading from? And from what book store did you get this great unknown understanding of yours? By all means, enlighten us poor folk.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Betty on May 10, 2020, 04:24:02 AM
Apostolic,
   
Excerpt from ADAM MABRY

Why Charismatics and Calvinists Need Each Other

"Love also means that we commit to learn from each other. Can you imagine the exponential good that would happen if charismatics learned exegesis from the likes of Don Carson? What kingdom fruit would be born if Calvinists learned to exercise missional faith like our MPCM counterparts? I sometimes daydream about what could happen if the passion of the Pentecostal for the power of God and the passion of the Calvinist for the Word of God could be combined to accomplish the work of God. The world just might see the glory of God."
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 10, 2020, 01:25:17 PM
 &TY  Betty, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who knows what love is and who accepts that there are different opinions that should all be respected.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Erik Diamond on May 10, 2020, 03:48:11 PM
Quote from: Apostolic
Oh we don't?


Sadly, that's right. People like you don't.

Quote
Then why not enlighten us lowly ignorant folk on what the elitist hierarchy of the church thinks it points to?

Frankly, we already have - for years.  We gave you the article links. We have refuted your doctrines many times here where you have failed to come back and defend yourself.  Here is the information AGAIN:

Understanding the Signs that follow Believers!  (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/mark16.html)

Is Speaking in Tongues Biblical and Still Valid for Today? (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/is_speaking_in_tongues_biblical.shtml)

Here is our refutation on your AND BETTY's position start here right on this thread (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=1846.msg21598#msg21598)

And you still feel that you are not enlightened? Well... spiritual blindness?

Quote
Because in my book, speaking in tongues means speaking in tongues, and healing the sick means healing the sick.

That is what the unenlightened people thinks. They are reading it superfacially and literally.

Quote
What book are you reading from?

Haven't you read our posts here. Didn't we quoted you chapter and verses of the book we used? Do you know what book we read from? Do you even recognize it? 

Quote
And from what book store did you get this great unknown understanding of yours?

Don't be ridiculous!  We do not get our understanding from a bookstore but the Word of God itself!

Quote
By all means, enlighten us poor folk.

In case you did not noticed, we have testified to you! It is not up to us to enlighten you, but the Lord's!

Quote
Betty, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who knows what love is and who accepts that there are different opinions that should all be respected.

You do not even know what Biblical definiation of love is to begin with anyway. 

I believe the Word of God should be respected.  Yes we all have different opinions about something in the Bible but more importantly, we all must respect the Scriptures also. And we show that respect by not handling it deceitfully! If you want to prove your position, you need to examine it with your Scripture first, then show us!  Else, you do NOT have the love of the Truth. I will not respect your "opinions" if it does not stand the test of Truth with Scripture.  We quoted you Scripture and you get offendedly because...

Galatians 4:16
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Nikki on May 10, 2020, 05:58:03 PM
You are very correct Erik, and thanks for posting those links for her again. Maybe she will realize there have been many answers to her questions. It's amazing how so many people are so blinded by their beliefs they cannot even recognize when someone is telling the truth. In politics, in relationships, and mostly in the church. The truth just seems to go right over their heads.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Philly Dawg on May 11, 2020, 03:27:22 AM

When will they ever learn.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 12, 2020, 09:51:22 AM
When will they ever learn.

Learn what? That some Christians are cruel and judgmental? First of all, you shouldn't even be asking the question if Charismatics or Pentecostalism is a false gospel? That in itself is inappropriate. Second of all NIKKI, the links are biased and divisive to Christianity, not uplifting and encouraging to Christian ecumenism.  Moreover, to attempt to quench the spirit and call it  a good thing is to blasphemy the holy spirit. Disgraceful behavior I've come to expect from Reformed Christians.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: ZeroCool on May 12, 2020, 09:52:01 PM

Quench the spirit? What does that even mean? You never really say anything substantive, you just reply making a lot of empty charges.

Like Trump. 

This seems to be a strategy of all who have no legitimate answers? Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 15, 2020, 02:01:50 AM
Quote from: Apostolic
Oh we don't?


Sadly, that's right. People like you don't.

Quote
Then why not enlighten us lowly ignorant folk on what the elitist hierarchy of the church thinks it points to?


So judgmental and nasty. Whatever.

Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 17, 2020, 01:15:36 PM
>>>
 Betty, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who knows what love is and who accepts that there are different opinions that should all be respected.
<<<

Different opinions on what style shoes to wear to work can be respected, but different opinions on what constitutes the gospel message and teachings of Christ should not be respected. Judaizers are of the opinion that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, Catholics are of the opinion that a man can rule infallibly in the church for Christ, Dispensationalists are of the opinion that Satan wasn't bound at the cross and Christ is coming to save the Jews that he apparently overlooked the last 2000 years. Which of these opinions do you think should be respected by God-fearing Christians? Many professing Christians would say "all," but I would say none. They are all false teachings, false doctrines, or gospel other than the one Christ taught. It's "not" the gospel, it's not good news if it is false news. I would not encourage any Christian to respect teachings that they "know" are false. That is a contradiction to the salvation of Christ.

Matthew 21:42-43

Did Christ in any way teach or imply that they were entitled to their own personal opinions about the kingdom or bout the spiritual deliverance of Prophecy? No, He said that because they rejected His teachings concerning the prophecy of the messiah and His Kingdom, therefore they would no longer be afforded the privilege of representing it. He "warned" to beware the leaven (doctrines) of these men who ruled God's house "because" despite what many ministers imply today, doctrines matter. The truth matters. Opinions are worthless against the solid rock of the word of God. And hard as it may be for some professing Christians to understand, "rejecting" the truth also matters. It's not validated that you have your version and opinion of what is the truth, and I have my version or opinion of what is the truth, and Minister Mcbabble has his own version and opinion of what is the truth. The truth is not diverse, it is singularly homogeneous, unvaried, consistent, and absolute. It is only in man's mind that the truth can be divided into many versions where all those holding them are in some imagined place of abstract unity where truth and error can and should dwell peaceably in that same house. the foolish always think they are right, but the wise place their faith in God's word, not in the visual. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. Your comment was that it was good to know someone loved like you. But the truth is, it's good to know that there are a few faithful Christians who actually know what love is, and who accepts that God's laws and doctrines are not subject to subjective reasonings or judgments, personal opinions, private interpretations or individual concepts of vain gifts. What's right is not how each individual sees it, but what is written in the word of God. Indeed, it has always been that:

Proverbs 12:15
Proverbs 21:2


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 17, 2020, 02:06:05 PM
>>>
When will they ever learn.
>>>
Learn what?
<<<

Learn that God's ways are not man's ways. I learn from the adversity or difficulties of opposing opinions by comparing them with God's statutes. I don't strike out at the truth "as" the bane of the adversary, but my distaste for it. We have to open our minds to receive the truth as the solution for our adversity. To be sure there are those who do not desire to learn from God's law, which is often what is causing such animosity and stress when they hear the faithful testimony to it. My philosophy is, if it is God's word that I am goaded into considering, then I'm grateful for discomposure that I might feel because of it.

Psalms 119:71

The Psalmist understood. Because affliction or distress of any kind acts as an honorable discipline in leading the Spirit-filled Christian to recognize and value the truth and promises of God much more appreciatively.


Quote
>>>
That some Christians are cruel and judgmental?
<<<

Is this what you've learned from the Scriptures you've been given? ...that faithful testimony to the gospel truth is a product of cruel and judgmental Christians?  It's sad that you may have learned that, but that doesn't mean it is the truth. We live, we learn, but not always what is needful.

2nd Timothy 3:7

You may have learned many things but the perfect knowledge is from the words of Him that is perfect. Not from ministers, pastors, or televangelist hucksters. The only safeguard against false doctrine and the strong delusions of sensual ideologies is the "humble" study of the Scriptures with a heart to actually receive what they say. Anyone can study the Scriptures, but it takes the Holy Spirit to have one actually surrender to their absolute authority of it. i.e., cruel and judgmental are not attributes of the agape love that Christians have in preaching the truthful doctrines of Christ.


Quote
>>>
First of all, you shouldn't even be asking the question if Charismatics or Pentecostalism is a false gospel?  That in itself is inappropriate.
<<<

Comparing the witness of Charismatics and Pentecostals to see if their words agree with the words of the Bible is very appropriate. If that type Christian examination was good enough for the more noble/honest Bereans, then it's good enough for me.

Acts 17:11-12

Inappropriate would be for a God-fearing Christian "not" to ask the question of "if the Charismatic Movement or if Pentecostalism was false." Would you by any stretch of the imagination think that such a question is not important for the church to know? On the contrary, every movement, every group, every association or faction purporting to represent Christ "should be thoroughly tested" to see if it is of truly of Christ. ....as the Bereans did.

1st John 4:1

God's word instructs us plainly to try or "test" so that we know the difference between false prophets and true prophets. Would you suggest that we ignore God's instructions? There is only one way to effectively prove the spirits, and that is to question their words by comparing them with the infallible, authoritative words of God so that we might see if they are in agreement.


Quote
>>>
Second of all NIKKI, the links are biased and divisive to Christianity, not uplifting and encouraging to Christian ecumenism.
<<<

Perhaps. But sometimes biased or partiality to the truth is a good thing. Our only consideration of it should be if it is the truth or is it a lie. If it is the truth, then it is not divisive to Christianity, rather it separates Christianity from the false religions that may pose as Christianity. You may think this divisive but it's actually just the opposite. Those links are unifying to faithful Christians, they are uplifting to those who cherish God's laws, and they are encouraging to Christian fidelity, dedication, and dependability. We're not interested in the way of vanity in promoting worldly inclusions, it is to His unchanging word that we are devoted--not any interest in giving false doctrines equal time or space to promulgate in some warped sense of objectivity.

Psalms 119:37-38

As for Ecumenism, i is not and never has been God's will for worldwide religious unity. It's His will that "His" church remains different and faithful, not that they join with other doctrines, faiths, and religions. The Holy Spirit's call to "the churches" for unity will always be present with us, but it is not a call to join with other religions, other doctrines, or other beliefs that are set-apart and diverse from the Kingdom of Christ. The Spirit calls us to judgment, separation, and responsibility. Not to include the world's religions as a part of "His covenanted church."


Quote
>>>
Moreover, to attempt to quench the spirit and call it a good thing is to blasphemy the holy spirit.
<<<

Revelation 2:9

The true quenching of the spirit blasphemy is of those who claim to be the children of the living God and are not. It is of children who are disobedient, not born of God, but of the Devil. Those who are not the Israel of God, but who live of the flesh rather than the spirit.

Romans 9:6-8

In a phrase, "False Christians" who cannot recognize the truth because they are not of the Spirit of truth, and thus seek to quench that Spirit of truth. God says "He" knows their blasphemy. Of course, they may not, but He assuredly does.


Quote
>>>
Disgraceful behavior I've come to expect from Reformed Christians.
<<<

I don't know what to expect from Reformed Christians, but I know what I expect from Biblical Christians. I expect them to be true children of God who receive God's truth because they have the Spirit of truth in them. Those who don't are not the children of God, but the offspring of the Devil. They cannot hear God's truth and they cannot understand God's word. Not because we say so or because we are better, but because God has not given them to hear, nor to understand. Thus we can only witness and God ill (or not) give the increase.

John 8:43-45

The one who's children we are determines if we can understand what God says, and if we Spiritually hear His word.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 17, 2020, 04:44:22 PM
 
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 &TY  Betty, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who knows what love is...
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Love is the agape/charity you give wanting nothing in return. It's the love of God in the first works, which sadly has grown cold in our day. It's having the earnest desire for your neighbor the same thing that God has graciously given you. It's the labor that God has given His servants to do "Till He Come." And it's not what is being done by the church. In a word, it's obedience, or the guarding against loss of God's instruction to His people. Go to the nations of the earth and make disciples of men. So with the gift of speaking in heretofore (before Israel was extended to the gentiles) unknown tongues/languages so that the kingdom of God be extended to the ends of the earth. You want to speak in unknown tongues, take the gospel to other nations rather than babble pretending it is miraculous personal God manifestations. In keeping God's word faithfully, the revelation of the love of God is made manifest.  Love is the "selfless inclination" that is so lacking in the church today, the "free" gift that you give in your earnest desire to do the will of God. That's why God commands that "if you love Him, keep His commandments." This because God is the personification of benevolent love. Love is "not" the desire that anyone be comfortable in this world, but that they be reserved by the Holy Spirit to enter the world to come.

Matthew 22:38-0

Christian love is not defined as passion, infatuation, sympathy, sentiment, or admiration, nor is it conditional on its acceptance. So simply because we tell you the "unpalatable" truth does not mean that we hate, it means that we love in God's concept of love. A love that has waxed cold in the church replaced by intellectual and sentimental feelings.
 

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... and who accepts that there are different opinions that should all be respected.
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Personal opinions are our own thoughts about some things, while Christian doctrine is God's thoughts about things. He calls these His laws. And the one great truth we know is that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are our ways His ways (Isaiah 55:80) and that is "precisely why" He has given us His wholely inspired word to be the arbiter of what are our thoughts versus His. It's time the church realized that "different opinions" on doctrines necessarily means that someone (everyone but possibly one) is wrong and they are saying things about the Kingdom of Christ that are not true. Only one doctrine can be the truth, and all the rest are erroneous. i.e., God's salvation cannot be by both man's free will and God's Sovereign good will. Thus it is incumbent upon faithful Christians to search it out (Proverbs 25:2) and come to the actual truth of the matter rather than casually give the "ridiculous" rejoinder that all opinions should be respected. Every opinion should not be respected, else we have chaos of doctrine and diversity of beliefs or faith in the church. Belief or faith doesn't come by respecting all opinions, it comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God. Professing Christians have to stop this "we'll understand by and by" and start searching/styudying the scriptures to see if these things preached are true or not. God "gave" us the more noble/honorable Bereans as our example:

Acts 17:11-12

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We don't accept that there are different opinions on the kingdom that should all be respected, we search the scriptures to see if what is being said is true--and more importantly, that what is being said is "not" true. Therefore, we don't follow false doctrines and parrot lines and catchphrases like, "we'll understand it better by and by." Not that this is an untrue statement, but that it is too often the lazy man's answer to everything that gets in the way of his worldly endeavors.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 17, 2020, 06:56:56 PM
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I don't think they truly understand the purpose of signs to even know what speaking in tongues or healing the physically sick pointed to.

Oh we don't?
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No, I really don't think so. They weren't to show God gives His prophets power to do them, rather to "represent" and highlight some aspect of the deeper Spiritual truth concerning God's magnificent salvation program.


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Then why not enlighten us lowly ignorant folk on what the elitist hierarchy of the church thinks it points to?
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Which sign? Lots of signs are tokens of lots of things relating to God's magnificent salvation program. Feeding the hungry, healing the insane man, raising the dead, turning water to wine, which sign?


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Because in my book, speaking in tongues means speaking in tongues,
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Yes, "speaking in languages" means speaking in languages. What languages do you speak? I assume that you are aware that tongues simply "means" languages, don't you. It's not some unknown word or phrase that dropped out of the sky meaning miraculous speech. Tongues is the word of the ancients for languages. For example:

Genesis 10:20
Isaiah 66:18
Mark 16:17
Acs 2:4

I post all this because unfortunately there are a great many professing Christians who don't appear to know that "tongues" simply means languages. i.e., to speak in other tongues is simply saying they began to speak in other languages. And those who didn't "KNOW" that language thought that they were drunk and thus babbling incoherently. Yes, some religions have presumed to re-interpret acts as a miraculous babbling language from God, but that whole thing is a product of a lack of education, misunderstanding, chicanery, a vivid imagination, or of sloppy exegesis. There are no miraculous babbling tongues today and anyone who pretends he is receiving them I have no problem saying that they are charlatans. Because in my book, speaking in other languages means speaking in other languages. i.e., languages that were unknown to the people who were there "except" those who were from the country where that language was spoken. That was the sign God gave. Not someone babbling incoherently and pretending they were hearing a new divine godly language. That miraculous sign of believers speaking where people heard them in the languages of the country they were born in bears no resemblance to the nonsense that passes for Christians speaking in tongues that no one know about but the interpreter today. And for good reason--it is NONSENSE!


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...and healing the sick means healing the sick.
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It surely does, but what sick? Can you physically cast out Satan from a mass murderer? How do you know, what does he look like? Can you go to the hospital and physically heal a dying cancer patient or someone stricken with fatal radiation burns, or someone that was bitten by the most deadly snake alive? No, so don't flatter yourself with vain confessions of such powers. The "fact" is, the most important need of mankind is the spiritual healing of sin. Without this, all other healing is futile and worth nothing. i.e., what good is it if you heal a person physically and yet he dies in his sin? What good is it if he indeed gains the whole world and loses his soul? The answer to Christ's pointed question is, it is vain and no good at all. Likewise, the only one who can bring the healing that will take away his sin is Christ. He is the only Physician that can bring the healing that every soul "desperately" needs. Christ sent us to heal, not physically, but spiritually through balm of the gospel message. By the Spirit of God, the testimony of Christ is the healing that we are sent to bring healing to the nations. Because it is with his stripes that we are healed, and our testimony "to this fact" is the love of our neighbor in which we were sent.

Matthew 9:12-13

Have you gone and learned what that means? It means Christ wasn't talking about a physician healing, but a spiritual healing, and sin was the sickness that needed to be healed. That's what it means. It illustrated that if you are righteous you are without sin, and thus you don't need to be healed. Only sinners need to be healed. And in that department, Christ is the great physician. So yes, you are correct that "healing the sick means healing the sick."  And the sick Christ sent "us" to heal are sinners, and the balm of that healing the testimony of the gospel through the Holy Spirit. But as Christ said, go ye and learn what that means and He will have mercy. Selah.


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What book are you reading from?
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The good book. The one with secrets that God reveals to whom He will, and that He hides from the eyes of those He would not have to know. The book of the sovereign God.

Daniel 2:47

God kept the secret that His salvation was going also to the Gentiles from the Jews for thousands of years. Would you think He couldn't seal a book from the obstinant and prideful Gentiles who think themselves better? To one person the word is a Rock that will grind him to powder, and to another that same word is the building material for His safe dwelling. The Bible is many things to many people, and sadly it is a house of sand that will come crashing down upon those who build carelessly and profess their work on its behalf. We seek a house of Solid Rock, whose builder and maker is God. Others seek a house they choose to build themselves, and set to their own dimensions and their own qualifications. Only one will stand in that great day.  It will be of those who are reading from the Bible alone, and whose authority is the word alone, and whose understanding is spirit and truth rather than flesh and will.


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And from what book store did you get this great unknown understanding of yours?
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We received this book not from a store, and we bought it without money. It was a gift from God.

1st Corinthians 14:1

The gifts of God are spiritual gifts. We get our understanding of the great storehouse of God. It's filled with the bread from heaven and this bread of knowledge costs us nothing. But it cost Christ everything which He gave willingly that we might understand the mysteries of God. Come, buy bread and water from Him and you will find it better to live by that than the carnal visions of grandeur that is imagined in speaking in babbling tongues, or receiving earthly powers of physically healing someone. The greatest power we have is the power of witness, the power of the testimony of Christ.

Isaiah 55:1-4

What greater power on earth could we hope for than to be Christ-like in bearing testimony to His gracious words of healing the nations by witnessing to all languages, or in the word of the ancients, in tongues.

Acts 2:8

How indeed, since their tongues (languages) were "Unkown" to those who were speaking to them. THAT was the great miracle of Pentecost, the servants of God speaking in a language that was unknown to them, not the babbling foolery that passes for speaking in languages today. That miracle was a sign "representing" the reality that the gospel would go out to all tongues and to every nation and kindred. The gospel was no longer "primarily" only for the Jews. Satan could deceive the nations/Gentiles no longer because of this. At least not until the time of the end. The great mystery has been revealed to the Lord's servants. All tongues would receive the gospel of Israel.


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By all means, enlighten us poor folk.
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Luke 4:18-19

As Christ goes, so go His servants. We are thus sent to preach the gospel to the poor--the poor or humble in spirit who God has given "blessed" ears to hear it. Not poor as in having no money, this type poverty has nothing to do with it. The poor of spirit, meaning the humble. "THIS" is understanding. We are sent to heal the brokenhearted-that is to say, those who are broken in spirit to recognize their sins. We are sent to console these who are pierced and deeply afflicted, that they understand their 'true" healing is in Christ. We are sent to preach deliverance to the captives--that is to say, those who are held captive to sin by the adversary. This has nothing to do with physical captivity, but of those who are spiritually held as slaves by the Devil. We are sent that the blind might recover their sight--not by laying on of our physical hands, but by the enlightening power of the gospel, through the Holy Spirit that empowers it. We are sent to set at liberty those that are bruised or beaten, not those bruised in prison houses, but those who are bruised as slaves in the spiritual house of bondage by Satan. We are sent to preach that "now" is the acceptable year of the Lord. ...sent to speak to them in every tongue or language. What was unknown before the New Testament dispensation is now interpreted that the gospel of Israel go to every language.

You say "by all means enlighten us poor folk," I say God is enlightening poor folk, by all means.

Revelation 14:6

Every Tongue (language), and nation and people. The gospel is to be preached to unknown tongues with an interpreter. i.e., someone who "knows" how to understand that tongue. Someone who possesses the gift of interpretation.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
   
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Herman Stowe on May 17, 2020, 08:36:15 PM
Thank you for all you do Tony. Very enlightening posts brother.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Apostolic on May 18, 2020, 12:06:27 PM
 Enlightening isn't the word I'd use, it was more like frightening that someone could be so against other Christians that they would openly attack their beliefs. Charismatics and Pentecostals are not a false gospel they are just like the rest of you. I am grateful that the rest of you or at least most of you do not feel the same way. For that I thank you.
Title: Re: Is Charismaticism or Pentecostalism A False Gospel?
Post by: Mark on May 18, 2020, 06:17:35 PM
Enlightening isn't the word I'd use, it was more like frightening that someone could be so against other Christians that they would openly attack their beliefs. Charismatics and Pentecostals are not a false gospel they are just like the rest of you. I am grateful that the rest of you or at least most of you do not feel the same way. For that I thank you.
I know this may be hard thing for you to take, however just saying I am Christian doesn’t make one so(lip service/professing), it’s by their fruit we will know them. Do we keep God’s commandments or do we fight against it looking ways around it? Do we have itching ears following the lust of worldly doctrines in the church or do we hear His voice?

1 John 2:3 (KJV)
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

How can we say with an honest conscience we are following the Lamb wherever he may go if we add to his Word, feign miracles and supernatural healings by the Spirit of God? Does God say in vain to that rebellious house in his Word?

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(1 Timothy 4:1,2)

Why can’t God’s word be enough, why can’t his power to save his elect be enough of the power of the gospel, why can’t healing of sin be more than enough than just physical healings of infirmities/weaknesses. As it is written my grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in weakness.