The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Eschatology => Topic started by: rswylie2000 on March 03, 2007, 07:48:48 PM

Title: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: rswylie2000 on March 03, 2007, 07:48:48 PM
I need some help understanding how the "return to the land passages" are fulfilled in Christ.  I have the dispensational mindset still in my mind and need to be shed of it by biblical proof.  If any one can offer a resource to me as to how the Jews are no longer to go back to posess the land of Israel and still have God being honest, I'd really appreciate it.  The specific land grant promises are my only issue of conscience in being out of my old "filter."

Thanks in advance for your help,

Rick
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Reformer on March 03, 2007, 07:58:08 PM
I need some help understanding how the "return to the land passages" are fulfilled in Christ.  I have the dispensational mindset still in my mind and need to be shed of it by biblical proof.  If any one can offer a resource to me as to how the Jews are no longer to go back to posess the land of Israel and still have God being honest, I'd really appreciate it.  The specific land grant promises are my only issue of conscience in being out of my old "filter."

Thanks in advance for your help,

Rick

Welcome!
 Well you need to give us more help than that. What specific passages are you referring to? Where is this promise to return to the land, which you speak of?
   Thanks,


Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Penne on March 03, 2007, 10:13:30 PM
I need some help understanding how the "return to the land passages" are fulfilled in Christ.  I have the dispensational mindset still in my mind and need to be shed of it by biblical proof.  If any one can offer a resource to me as to how the Jews are no longer to go back to posess the land of Israel and still have God being honest, I'd really appreciate it.  The specific land grant promises are my only issue of conscience in being out of my old "filter."

Thanks in advance for your help,

Rick

God fulfilled His promise to Israel concerning physical land.  He already gave it. 
Joshua 21:43-45
"43  And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45  There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."

Joshua 23:1-5
"1  And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
2  And Joshua called for all Israel, and for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers, and said unto them, I am old and stricken in age:
3  And ye have seen all that the LORD your God hath done unto all these nations because of you; for the LORD your God is he that hath fought for you.
4  Behold, I have divided unto you by lot these nations that remain, to be an inheritance for your tribes, from Jordan, with all the nations that I have cut off, even unto the great sea westward.
5  And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you."

1 Kings 8:56
56  Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Neh 9:7-8 & 23
"7  Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
8  And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:"

23  "Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it."

So you can see by reading the above verses the promise was fulfilled.

Christ delivered Israel and established His kingdom. 
Colossians 1:13
  "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

Luke 1:33
 "And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Gal 3:13
 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

Eph 2:5-6
5  "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: rswylie2000 on March 04, 2007, 07:17:20 PM
It is verses like these that confuse me . . .

Jer 32:41  I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

Jer 24:6  I will set my eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up, and not tear them down; I will plant them, and not uproot them.

Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

Is The land of Israel and his dwelling at Mt. Zion only symbolic and foreshadowing of his presense immediately among his people in the person of Christ?  Are there any promises left concerning the land of Palestine that are yet unfulfilled?  These passages seem so clear that very specific promises were made to the Israelites that they would again dwell en-mass in the promised land.  I have rejected the dispensational interpretation of who spiritual Israel is, but these verses are still sticky for me as to the total rejection of that system.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Penne on March 05, 2007, 11:26:25 AM
It is verses like these that confuse me . . .

Jer 32:41  I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.

Jer 24:6  I will set my eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up, and not tear them down; I will plant them, and not uproot them.

Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

Is The land of Israel and his dwelling at Mt. Zion only symbolic and foreshadowing of his presense immediately among his people in the person of Christ?  Are there any promises left concerning the land of Palestine that are yet unfulfilled?  These passages seem so clear that very specific promises were made to the Israelites that they would again dwell en-mass in the promised land.  I have rejected the dispensational interpretation of who spiritual Israel is, but these verses are still sticky for me as to the total rejection of that system.  Thanks again.

Spiritual Israel is any one in Christ.
Gal. 3:26-29
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Joshua 21:43-45 shows that God did give Israel all the land He swore to them.

43  And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45  There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Jer.31-33
31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-8
6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Jesus did make a new Covenant with the house of Israel.  This house isnít to the nation of Israel in the Middle East but to those who are in Christ.

Luke 22:20
20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Gal. 3:13
13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I do not know of any promises to Palestine other than to those people that will be sealed unto the promise in Jesus Christ. 
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: rswylie2000 on March 05, 2007, 05:33:45 PM
Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

What is to be made of these verses?  DO these not seem to point to a permanent posession of a particular piece of landscape?

I understand the nature of spiritual Israel, but how does that relate to the land grant promises in the OT that that above?
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Penne on March 05, 2007, 07:43:49 PM
Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

I understand the nature of spiritual Israel, but how does that relate to the land grant promises in the OT that that above?

Amos 9 is talking to spiritual Israel.  The land is the Promise Land in Jesus.

Read Tony Warren's article http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.html

Here's a portion from it.

God made the literal nation promises concerning the land, this is true. But they were 'conditional' promises, and were all fulfilled. It's really important to distinguish between the conditional promises made to the literal nation, and the unconditional promises (wherein nothing was required), which was made to the Israel of God. It's the difference between the "representation" of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with Israel.
The Covenant Promises of the literal land of Canaan to that nation Israel were never unconditional, and those theologians who make such claims only show a real lack of knowledge of both the scriptures, and the promises. The land given to Israel was conditional, and God made that very clear to them many times. He also made it clear that He is no longer obligated, and has fulfilled His promises to them. It's only the indoctrinated teachers of Premillennialism (having become more politically minded than biblically minded) who have decided that God hasn't kept all of His promises of what He sware to their fathers. In their arrogance, they insist that God hasn't given them rest, peace, nor delivered their enemies into their hand as He promised. But when we search the scriptures diligently, to see what God has to say, we see that the truth is a bit different from man's theologies.

    Joshua 21:43

    * "And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their Fathers; And they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
    * And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
    * There Failed Not Ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; All Came To Pass".

According to the word of some prominent theologians, God hasn't yet keep all the promises that He had made to their fathers, but according to 'the ultimate authority,' which is God's Word, He didn't fail in one single promise that He made to the fathers of Israel concerning the land. Thus God owes Israel nothing. He fulfilled all that He sware He would do concerning the land. It was clearly never an unconditional promise, and so when they forsook God, His judgments came upon them, and their enemies around them conquered them. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point.

    On the other hand, the promise to Abraham "and" his Seed, was not a promise of 'literal' land. God says the Seed in view in that promise was 'not' the nation, but Christ. And that is the inheritance which was unconditional (not based upon works), and that Covenant was everlasting. So though many spend volumes trying to confuse the issue, let us not confuse the unconditional promises to Abraham and 'HIS SEED' (Christ), with the conditional promise of the literal land to the people of Israel.

    Galatians 3:16

    * "Now unto Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He saith not, unto seeds, as of many; but as one ONE, and to thy Seed, Which Is Christ.
    * And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of None Effect."

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Reformer on March 05, 2007, 08:46:25 PM
 Tony is right concerning this. God made two promises. One to Abraham's seed, and the other to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ.  One a picture of the old covenant, which couldn't be kept, and the other of the new covenant that is kept in Christ.

 Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

This is the physical land promised Israel, Abraham's seed. And the promise was fulfilled and conditions set on it in order for them to stay there.

 De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

If you read on you will see that God told them plainly it was not unconditional and he would take it from them. The problem is, the premillennial and other worldly oriented theologians are preoccupied with the nation of Israel, instead of the bible.

But we seek for a better nation and a land that cannot be conquered or plowed under by Romans, the true promised land is not in Israel, but is Israel. That oilive tree in Romans 11 represents the Israel of God, not a physical nation. The 144,000 represent the spiritual people of God, not a physical people of God.

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: judykanova on March 05, 2007, 11:39:49 PM
Amo 9:14  I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15  I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them," says the LORD your God.

What is to be made of these verses?  DO these not seem to point to a permanent posession of a particular piece of landscape?

I understand the nature of spiritual Israel, but how does that relate to the land grant promises in the OT that that above?

rswylie2000, in conjunction to those things that Pene and Reformer has already spoken of concerning the literal promises that have already been fulfilled in terms of the land that God promised Abraham,  you may want to read Jeremiah 8 which helps illuminate that fact that the promises you sited in Amos can no longer be attributed to national Israel.

Christ's sacrifice in essense was a spiritual death blow to Israel, while it afforded spiritual life to all other (gentile) nations of the world.  The NT churches not only replaced
Israel as God's ambassadors and caretakers of the Word, but moreoever, national Israel was forever condemed (spiritually) as a nation. 

Thus when you read such verses as those in Amos, you have to reconcile them with polar opposite verses that can be found in such places as Jeremiah:

Jer 8:4  Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
Jer 8:5  Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return. . ..

Jer 8:12  Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Jer 8:13  I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

Jer 10:15† They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

As you know the nation as a whole rejected Christ at the time of His "visitation" which put the nail in their cofin, so to speak.

This seeming fascination and deference towards Israel today is inexplicable and irrational.  It  defies reason that anyone would think that God would bestow blessings on a people who as a whole have rejected and hated His Son from the time of their "visitation",  to this present day.  In this regard they have more in common wtih their Muslim kin than they do with Christians.   

What I find even more amazaing is this 'courtship' Christain churches seem to have with a nation that is NO LONGER blessed by God and, according to Scripture will NEVER be blessed by God in terms a true spiritual blessings, although a remnant is included among the true Israel of God

I was going to start a thread to discuss this very thing and hope to post more on this topic soon.

Judy
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Hannah on March 30, 2007, 11:42:25 AM
Quote
God made the literal nation promises concerning the land, this is true. But they were 'conditional' promises, and were all fulfilled. It's really important to distinguish between the conditional promises made to the literal nation, and the unconditional promises (wherein nothing was required), which was made to the Israel of God. It's the difference between the "representation" of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with Israel.

Wasn't the promise of land made under the Abrahamic Covenant, which was unconditional?  And wasn't it made for "forever?"  This is the scripture I am thinking of:

 Genesis 17: 7"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
 8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

My understanding is the promises of the Abrahamic covenant are unconditional and the terms of the Mosaic covenant are conditional.  This is God talking to Abraham before the Mosaic covenant ever came to be.

Hannah


Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Pearson on March 30, 2007, 11:53:27 AM
Quote
God made the literal nation promises concerning the land, this is true. But they were 'conditional' promises, and were all fulfilled. It's really important to distinguish between the conditional promises made to the literal nation, and the unconditional promises (wherein nothing was required), which was made to the Israel of God. It's the difference between the "representation" of the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant with Israel.

Wasn't the promise of land made under the Abrahamic Covenant, which was unconditional?  And wasn't it made for "forever?"  This is the scripture I am thinking of:

 Genesis 17: 7"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
 8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

My understanding is the promises of the Abrahamic covenant are unconditional and the terms of the Mosaic covenant are conditional.  This is God talking to Abraham before the Mosaic covenant ever came to be.

Hannah





No, if that was an unconditional "forever Covenant of the land," then that would make God a liar, because he took the land away from them because of their wickedness. Therefore it can in no way be seen as an unconditional covenant about the land. God told them straight off, if they disobeyed, they would be cast out of the land just like those before them. There was never an unconditional covenant for the land.

This was a covenant for a land greater than that found in the middle east, but the true promised land to Abraham and his seed.

 Galatians 3:16-17
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect".
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Hannah on March 30, 2007, 03:46:55 PM
Pearson,

So when it says "all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession" this does not mean the literal land of Canaan?  The land spoken of here means something else?  Does it mean the earth, as in the meek shall inherit the earth?

Hannah


8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."



Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 30, 2007, 11:13:21 PM
Pearson,

So when it says "all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession" this does not mean the literal land of Canaan?  The land spoken of here means something else?  Does it mean the earth, as in the meek shall inherit the earth?

Hannah


8"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."




Hi Hannah,


Let's see what scriptures say further.......


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Verse 10 gives us our spiritual land of promise. The possession of this land by the Jews (true Christians) is forever.


2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Dsouzaanthony

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Joe Johnson on April 27, 2019, 03:05:53 AM
I notice that you all keep saying that the promises were conditional and were all fulfilled, but God did not say that. He promised them the land forever unconditionally. So where do you get it that it was conditional? Either give scripture or you know that can't be true. Israel is back in the land because it was promised them.

(Genesis 17:8 )
And I give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be a God to them. [Darby's Translation]

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Davis on April 27, 2019, 04:25:29 AM
Didn't you read the thread? It has been explained.  )peace(
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Joe Johnson on April 27, 2019, 06:01:26 AM
Didn't you read the thread? It has been explained.  )peace(

I read the thread Davis. It has not been explained where it says the so called conditional promises were fulfilled. It also has not been explained how God promised them the land forever unconditionally in Genesis 17 and most of you still say the land was promised conditionally? See the scripture.

(Genesis 17:8 )
And I give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be a God to them. [Darby's Translation]

So I am asking again where you get scripture that says that promise was conditional? Just provide the scripture and that will suffice.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Oneil on April 27, 2019, 07:59:28 AM
It also has not been explained how God promised them the land forever unconditionally in Genesis 17 and most of you still say the land was promised conditionally?

That's inaccurate. Most here know Genesis 17 speaks of an unconditional promise because Galatians says it spoke of the seed as one person, which was Christ. So perhaps you are confused or getting things mixed up.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Dan on April 27, 2019, 02:31:10 PM
I read the thread Davis. It has not been explained where it says the so called conditional promises were fulfilled. It also has not been explained how God promised them the land forever unconditionally in Genesis 17 and most of you still say the land was promised conditionally? See the scripture.

Right ON! Don't let them bully you Joe. You are correct in your thinking based on the literal interpretation of Scripture.

Ge 17:8
"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

case closed!

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: David Knoles on April 28, 2019, 01:41:25 AM
Those Amillennialists who don't take the bible literally just skip over passages that aren't yet fulfilled. The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all died without receiving promises made to them regarding the land of Canaan. Which means they will receive it when Christ comes back to reign from Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Erik Diamond on April 28, 2019, 02:23:50 AM
Quote from: Davis
See the scripture.

(Genesis 17:8 )
And I give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be a God to them. [Darby's Translation]

Quote from: David K
Those Amillennialists who don't take the bible literally just skip over passages that aren't yet fulfilled. The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all died without receiving promises made to them regarding the land of Canaan. Which means they will receive it when Christ comes back to reign from Jerusalem.

The problem is that you did not reconcile Genesis 17 with the rest of Scripture.

Galatians 3:16The Covenant with Abram and his Seed, which was Christ, not to Abram's seeds, the physical people or nation of Israel. Now we get to the crux of the matter. The Everlasting Covenant with Israel was never with a nation, but with a people through the Seed, Christ. It was never with people of Jewish family heritage only, but to all those of the family of God through the Seed.

Galatians 3:28-29
The Everlasting (unconditional) covenants are in Christ ONLY fulfilled. And it won't be with national Israel or over a land in the Middle East!
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: David Knoles on April 28, 2019, 03:19:15 AM
It says land, not heaven. How do you reconcile that?
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Philly Dawg on April 28, 2019, 04:11:43 AM
It says land, not heaven. How do you reconcile that?

The question is, what kind of land? Physical land or spiritual land. Physical kingdom or physical kingdom? It's not what it says that is in the debate, it's what the prophesy meant.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Red on April 28, 2019, 05:15:51 AM
It says land, not heaven. How do you reconcile that?
David, the scriptures will reconcile the truth to us.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 11:8-13~"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
If we read these scriptures with true understanding, then we must confess, that the land in the middle east was a "pitiful" type of the true promises of God to the spiritual seed of Abraham through Christ.

Consider: Abraham and his natural seed DID inherit the land of promise, but Abraham knew that was not his TRUE PROMISE given to him freely by God's grace, for he, Sara, Isaac and Jacob all looked for a city which had foundations, whose builder and maker was God~they ALL died in faith having not received THOSE PROMISES OF GRACE, yet they all were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. The land of God's promises is the NEW EARTH and heavens, and by faith, Abraham understood this to be so.  Consider:
Quote from: THE LORD GOD
Genesis 13:14-17~"And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD."
As far as Abraham could see, and AS FAR as he could go as long as he lived, ALL THE LAND would be given to the SEED (Christ) of Abraham and the children thereof.......Abram removed his tent~which is telling us that the land where he lived WAS NOT the true land of promise, and the promises were not to his natural seeds, but to his SEED, which as one has already said.....is CHRIST and those chosen in him before the foundation of the earth...or from eternity past. Those of faith, are the true children of God~God's promises are BY GRACE, not because of blood that flows through man's sinful veins.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Granny on April 28, 2019, 08:48:15 AM
 )GoodPopst(  )amen( all who understand this truth.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Tony Warren on April 28, 2019, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: Davis on Yesterday at 04:25:29 AM
>>>
Didn't you read the thread? It has been explained.  )peace(

I read the thread Davis.
<<<

Joe,
  But did you read it with an open mind and with an eye to understand what God was truly saying about promises of an eternal land? I would hope so as there was a lot of Biblical information, instruction and explanation in the thread. Clearly, God made two types of promises. The promises to "Abraham's seed" which were conditional ones that were of the law and physical temporal lands, and also promises to "Abraham and his Seed," which were unconditional ones and were of grace and Spiritual eternal lands. These were a portrait of the two Covenants, and under only one would Israel be able to dwell in their land eternally. The Spiritual one, which is of grace.

Galatians 4:24-26

The Old Covenant with Physical Israel gendereth or gave birth to bondage, but the New covenant with Spiritual Israel gives birth to New Life in Christ Jesus and the Spiritual land promised. The only promise that brings regeneration into an eternal inheritance for the children of Israel is the unconditional one. The conditional Promise/Covenant, which physical Israel brake, was never unconditional.

Nehemiah 9:7-7

The fact that they were not eternal and were conditioned on their obedience is proved by the fact that God threw them out of the land. Which would be a contradiction if God gave them the land eternally. That is to say if we're looking at this question rationally and according to Scripture. In fact, according to your own beliefs, until 1949 the country was inhabited by another nationality, didn't it? So then, "how were they physically given the land eternally if they were driven out?" Eternal means you'll always be there. But the truth is that only one land qualifies for eternal habitation and that is the Spiritual promised land. Or was God's arm too short to prevent Israel from being cast out that what you think was His promise be kept?  And how about Matthew and what Christ unambiguously declared to Israel. Did that seem in any way ambiguous to you?

Matthew 21:42-43

In what world does this sound like the Lord is reiterating they have possession of the land eternally "if" the Kingdom (which you postulate is physical) was promised theirs forever?


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It has not been explained where it says the so called conditional promises were fulfilled.
<<<

Any promise that says if you are obedient you will prosper in the land, and if you are disobedient I will cast you out is by nature not unconditional. As has been stated before, the conditional promise was to Abraham's seed, meaning his posterity or children, the Israelites.

Genesis 12:7

Again note carefully, Abraham was not included in this promise because this was a promise of the physical land and was conditional, in stark contrast to the Genesis 17 Promise which was unconditional and to both Abraham and his seed Christ. True to God's promise in Genesis 12 He gave Abraham's children the land that he promised Abraham He would. All was fulfilled. By contrast, the promises to "Abraham and his Seed" was not conditional, and the fact is, Abraham never received the land that God promised his seed, because he died long before that time. That promise was not to Him, but to his posterity. You ask, where o I get this idea and where does it say this promise is fulfilled, and I give you the Scripture that is conclusive and unambiguous:

Genesis 15:18

So again plainly, God made this promise of the Physical land to Abraham's seed, and not to Abraham. and that promise was fulfilled fully.

Now the second part of your question is where it says it was conditional. Well, God answers that too.

Deuteronomy 8:15-20

There was nothing unconditional about the promise that God made to Abraham about giving his seed the physical land. God declares that they would be destroyed from it just as the other nations that were there before them if they were not obedient to Him. All this is representing the old covenant of law, while the Promises to Abraham and his seed represents the covenant of Grace because the Seed in view there is Christ. As has also already been shown by Scripture:

Galatians 3:15-16

So though clearly Abraham didn't receive the promise God made "to his seed or posterity" of the physical land, Abraham would receive the eternal promised land through Christ Jesus.

And finally, you asked where is it stated that all those promises to Abraham concerning his seed/children in the land were fulfilled, and I submit to you God's word swearing that all was fulfilled concerning it.

Joshua 21:43-45

He gave them all He promised concerning the physical land and they dwelt in it. So we have to ask if God's word concerning all that He swore to give Abraham's children being fulfilled is good enough? That really is the relevant question. Moreover, God makes it clear that He was not giving them the land because they were inherently a good or special people, for God is no respecter of persons. They are only commended special by God's grace. And He declares He gave them the land because God was fulfilling the Promise made to Abraham about his seed possessing the land, which was a type. He did this as a representation that the Old Covenant would secure no one of Israel as His child eternally. The real promise of an eternal inheritance comes only in the New Covenant dispensation.

Deuteronomy 9:4-5

Why did they receive the physical land "as Promised" Abraham's seed?  God tells us very plainly it was that He might perform or fulfill the oath or Promise that He made to Abraham concerning his seed receiving the land. So indeed again God declares all was fulfilled as Promised.


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It also has not been explained how God promised them the land forever unconditionally in Genesis 17 and most of you still say the land was promised conditionally?
<<<

No, God never promised Abraham's seed (children) the land eternally. God promised Abraham and His Seed (Christ) the land eternally.  The Land promised Israel in Genesis chapter 17 IS a unconditional promise of a eternal habitation. But look again more carefully. "THIS" Land was promised not to Abraham's seed or children, but to Abraham and His Seed, which means Christ (Galatians 3:16). The land Christ and Abraham inherits is a Spiritual land and kingdom, not a physical one in the middle east. A physical land won't last forever, only the heavenly Promised land endures forever.

1st John 2:17

It's not physical land as Abraham is in heaven and the only land he has acquired is the eternal spiritual promised land, Kingdom and reign. Not an earthly one. Promised and fulfilled. Not through the Old Covenant law of obedience to remain in the physical land, but an inheritance through the faith of Christ (Romans 4:13) that cannot be lost. This land is for Abraham and His Seed Christ. And all who are in Christ are heirs just as Abraham is, because Christ is the heir.

Galatians 3:28-29

What are Christians heirs of? Is it the physical land in Israel? Most certainly not. Clearly, that inheritance God is talking about is a spiritual inheritance, it is not declaring we too will find a physical land to dwell in the state of national Israel, but Spiritual in Christ. He is the true Israel of God where being a Jew is defined by Him, not physical attributes, lands or nations. Abraham received the very same promised land that all of us in Christ have been promised unconditionally. Selah.


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See the scripture. Genesis 17:8
<<<

Indeed! And the Scriptures confirm that Abraham missed the physical land promises made to "his seed," but will certainly share in the spiritual land promises made to Abraham and His seed. For these are the "New Covenant5" Promises that can only be fulfilled in the work of Christ and a spiritual place to dwell.

Genesis 17:7-8

Abraham "never" was given the physical land of Canaan, so if God be true (and we know that He is) then this New Covenant established with both "Abraham and His Seed" concerning the land has nothing to do with the physical land of Canaan, in stark contrast to what was promised his seed after Abraham had passed (Genesis 15:18) and after they came out of Egypt. Unless of course we are going to speculate wildly that God is going to take Abraham back from heaven to live on this sin cursed physical earth? That whole idea is disjointed and confused. Rather Genesis 17:8 is promised as an "everlasting possession," and was therefore a skia or type pointing to the kingdom of heaven, "the better country" than a physical plot of dirt in the middle east. As indeed explained in Hebrews11:

Hebrews 11:15-19

The everlasting possession is the better country than the physical land of canaan, it is the Spiritual land promised and confirmed in the New Covenant Christ made strong in His blood. And the land, the inheritance, The Kingdom and reign is Spiritual and fulfilled in Christ. This does not have to be debated because it is told us very plainly in Scripture. The unconditional promises were not to Abraham's seed or children, but to one Seed, which again was always Christ. This has already been explained. Consider again:

Galatians 3:16-18

If the promises you think were of literal land, then the inheritance is of the law and not grace. But if the promises were of a Spiritual habitation, confirmed by the body of Christ, then it is of grace and verified the "only" way it can be an everlasting possession in the Israel of God. Not a plot of dirt that is temporal, but a Spiritual land, the only land that can be eternal.


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So I am asking again where you get scripture that says that promise was conditional?
<<<

1st Kings 9:6-7

Sound in any way as a promise by God that He would keep the people in the land without conditions, forever? I mean, how clear can it be? All throughout Scripture God says be obedient and live in the land with the blessings of God. Be disobedient and God will cast you out of the land and Israel shall be a proverb (adage or aphorism) among all people.  In any dictionary, that's called a conditional promise of Covenant.


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Just provide the scripture and that will suffice.
<<<

I am praying the pertinent Scripture I bore witness to will suffice, but it has bee my experience that it seldom does with those understanding in terms of anthropomorphisms and blindly clinging to traditions and beliefs that aren't true. My hope is that I am wrong.

Hebrews 11:13-14

Indeed we all seek a country. Not national Israel "because" we are strangers and Pilgrims in this world, but a Promised land that we see by faith. Frankly, just think logically, which is thinking Biblically or reasonably. Come let us reason together, which is to convince by the word of God. How Could Abraham receive Canaan as "an everlasting possession" as was promised/covenanted in Genesis 17:8. Will Abraham will come back from the dead to receive or inherit and live again on this sin cursed earth? That makes no sense, and nowhere in the Bible is this taught. The way He will inherit this land is through Christ because the land of Canaan spoken of is the Spiritual possession of the Kingdom of God. That is the only true eternal inheritance and possession of Israel. Abraham sought that country by faith as he sojourned in this sin cursed world. And true to God's Promise, He received that Spiritual Promised land when he was absent from the body and present with the Lord. He saw the promised land by faith, which is the righteousness of Christ.

John 8:56

Abraham sojourned in this sin cursed earth having received a promise, saw the promised land far off by faith--and he rejoiced in it. Because it had nothing to do with a tiny physical patch of land in the middle east. This is the difference between Carnal thinking and Spiritual thinking, between carnal reigning on this sin cursed earth and Spiritual reigning with Christt in the Kingdom from above. 

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Tony Warren on April 28, 2019, 11:15:08 AM
>>>
Those Amillennialists who don't take the bible literally just skip over passages that aren't yet fulfilled.
<<<

A spurious charge. What Scripture have we ignored or skipped over? I think we have dealt with every Scripture that you have brought up, which I must say has been very few.


Quote
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The patriarch Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all died without receiving promises made to them regarding the land of Canaan.
<<<

Doesn't that tell you something important? They would have had to be ancient human beings to live long enough on earth to receive the promise IF the promise was really of the physical land of Canaan that God promised Abraham's seed. This illustrates those Promises weren't to them. By contrast, the "promises made to "Abraham and his Seed" were to be fulfilled in Christ confirming that Promise or Covenant in His blood. So you have your promises mixed up. The promises to Abraham's seed were fulfilled, and not one thing promised was withheld. As God plainly said, all was fulfilled. The Promises made to "Abraham and his Seed" (which is Christ) are fulfilled in the New Covenant the Lord established in opening a path for a New Jerusalem, a Holy City from above, not from this on sin cursed earth. Christ is now reigning, not will be reigning some day in physical Jerusalem.

1st Corinthians 15:25

Why are you looking for Christ to come to earth and reign when He is obviously already seated on the throne with God and already reigning over the kingdom. And those in Christ live and reign (Colossians 1:13) with Him. What is unfulfilled? Nothing concerning the New Covenant with Israel.


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Which means they will receive it when Christ comes back to reign from Jerusalem.
<<<

Why would Christ come back to reign from physical Jerusalem when that was merely a "type" pointing to the Spiritual Holy City from above? That would be like going back to sacrificing Lambs on the altar after Christ had already come and fulfilled that type in Israel. The truth is that Christ has already received the inheritance, has already established His kingdom, is already king and already reigning from Jerusalem, is already rebuilding the Temple, has already confirmed the New Covenant with any of Israel. Are you not aware that the New Covenant with Israel is this New Covenant church age?

Hebrews 8:12-13

The Bible is very clear on all these points concerning Christ's kingdom, reign and Covenant with the Israel of God. The Jerusalem of this earth is a Jerusalem in bondage of the flesh (carnal), but the Jerusalem that Christ reigns over is Spiritual and free. Thus we (as her children) are also free, rather than in bondage. This is a Spiritual Jerusalem, a promised land that is not temporal but eternal as the promise requires.

Galatians 4:25-26

She's our mother and we are her children, as opposed to earthly Jerusalem which could never be a true Holy or eternal city where Abraham's seed could reign forever.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Tony Warren on April 28, 2019, 11:25:16 AM
>>>
It says land, not heaven. How do you reconcile that?
<<<

Indeed it does! Christy said to beware of wolves in Sheep's clothing also. Do wolves put on sheep's clothing? How do you reconcile that? ...Easily! Christ said you must drink His blood in Remembrance of Him. How do you reconcile that with we are not to drink blood? Easy! Christ said we are actually the building stones of the Temple. How do you reconcile that? God said Elijah, and this was John the Baptist. So how do you reconcile that? Christ said Leaven and meant doctrine. How do you reconcile that? Etc., etc., etc. 

My point of course is that we reconcile God's word "by" God's word. Not by Webster's dictionary, or what seems right in our own eyes or by popular consensus. The fact is, the New Covenant with Israel is the promised land just as the New Jerusalem is the Holy City. Not in a literal physical fashion, but in a representative Spiritual fashion. The redemption of Israel is not something promised that is future, it's something promised that is fulfilled now. God's Covenant or oath to Abraham of this promised land peace and security was fulfilled in Christ.

Luke 1:6873

The Oath, the Promise, the Vow, the Covenant, it's all the exact same meaning. Just like a marriage vow, a marriage oath, a marriage promise or a marriage covenant, it's simply a solemn affirmation that something will be done. And as Scripture shows, God has performed all that He sware or promised to do in delivering Israel from bondage among their enemies and translating them into His glorious Kingdom. Even as Luke chapter one illustrates. Israel has been redeemed and its kingdom established. Not in a carnal or earthly physical fashion, but Spiritually. ...according to God's word. The land of the New Covenant is an eternal Spiritual land, not a temporal physical one.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Walt Lee on April 28, 2019, 04:13:36 PM
 )GoodPopst(  &TY
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Travis on April 29, 2019, 12:30:55 AM

You know you guys make such good arguments. I don't understand why people keep arguing the other side when it's so obvious that what you are saying is from scripture. I don't know where this reign of Christ on earth came from. Has it been around a long time?
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Philly Dawg on April 29, 2019, 02:11:28 AM
You know you guys make such good arguments. I don't understand why people keep arguing the other side when it's so obvious that what you are saying is from scripture.

There are some people that you just can't reason with. Just like the Trump people. Cults are the same everywhere. They pick a side and they blindly follow the narrative of that side no matter if it is sound, true or even reasonable. That's what makes them adversaries of the truth. Their inability to accept it over their leaders narrative.


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I don't know where this reign of Christ on earth came from. Has it been around a long time?

From what I have learned, it started with the Jewish people looking for just such a kingdom and it spread in some form to the Christians who held the Jewish doctrines higher than the bible itself. At least that's what I have read.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Manuel on April 29, 2019, 08:14:07 AM
There are some people that you just can't reason with. Just like the Trump people. Cults are the same everywhere. They pick a side and they blindly follow the narrative of that side no matter if it is sound, true or even reasonable. That's what makes them adversaries of the truth. Their inability to accept it over their leaders narrative.

 )Goodpoint( The father of lies and his children are all of the same character.

"John 8:44-45 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."

There will always be the cult that belies lies and the believers of truth, and they will never be joined like some people think they are.






Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: George on April 29, 2019, 12:21:19 PM
You know you guys make such good arguments.

Yeah, right!


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I don't understand why people keep arguing the other side when it's so obvious that what you are saying is from scripture.

The Devil quotes scripture to. That means nothing.


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I don't know where this reign of Christ on earth came from.

It came from the Bible. This spiritualizing is fake News, not the good news to Israel. It's replacement theology.

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: George on April 29, 2019, 02:24:45 PM
Those of faith, are the true children of God~God's promises are BY GRACE, not because of blood that flows through man's sinful veins.

Then why did God say the Jews were his chosen people? Why didn't he say the gentiles were? Because the Jews are very special people.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Melanie on April 30, 2019, 01:14:27 AM
Those of faith, are the true children of God~God's promises are BY GRACE, not because of blood that flows through man's sinful veins.

Then why did God say the Jews were his chosen people? Why didn't he say the gentiles were?

He did.


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Because the Jews are very special people.

They are.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28-29"

I just wish you guys (and girls) would start actually listening to scripture and not political propaganda.

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Robert Powell on April 30, 2019, 03:31:33 AM
 )Goodpoint(  A point that has been made again and again with these Dispensationalists, but it falls on deaf ears.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Red on April 30, 2019, 09:24:39 AM
Then why did God say the Jews were his chosen people? Why didn't he say the gentiles were? Because the Jews are very special people.
Greetings George, Nowhere is it said that the fleshly seed of Abraham are his chosen people~~that's a Jewish fable, not a biblical truth.
Quote from: Paul of the tribe of Benjamin
Romans 9:3-8~"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"~Only the children of God's promises are the TRUE children of Abraham~which also includes Gentiles.
Quote from: Paul again
Romans 3:29~Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also"
Among the fleshly seed of Abraham and among the Gentiles God has a chosen people given to Jesus Christ to redeem them from sin and condemnation, which he perfectly did by his life, death and resurrection.
Quote from: JESSU CHRIST
John 10:16~And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Again Paul wrote:
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Ephesians 2:11-22~"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
God's holy temple in which he shall dwell in throughout eternity is made up of BOTH Jews AND Gentiles. Enough said.....one fold, and one shepherd world without end.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Reformer on April 30, 2019, 10:42:52 AM
 )GoodPopst(
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: George on May 01, 2019, 07:10:18 AM
Greetings George, Nowhere is it said that the fleshly seed of Abraham are his chosen people

I'm not sure what you are getting at Red. Clearly it was said they are the chosen people. The liberal Amillennialists with their replacement theology distorts this. Are you one of them?

Deuteronomy 14:2
"For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God, and thee hath Jehovah chosen for a people of possession unto himself, out of all the peoples that are upon the face of the earth."


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that's a Jewish fable

No, that's a liberal amillennial fable. The truth is the scripture I gave you.


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Yes, of the Gentiles also

Not true. Nowhere does the bible call Gentiles Israel. The liberals do and try to cause Israel harm, but the Bible literally supports Israel. We are so grateful that the President is on the side of literal Israel and not on the side of Amillennial liberal spiritualists who claim she has been replaced. Israel came back to be a nation because it was written literally that they would. And no Amillennialist liberal can stop her.

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God's holy temple in which he shall dwell in throughout eternity is made up of BOTH Jews AND Gentiles.

God's holy Temple has not been rebuilt yet, but with the President making Jerusalem the Holy City and capital of Israel as foretold, you can expect that rebuilding very soon. You liberals deny the truth but God's people are Israel, not the Gentiles. They are those who must stand outside unless they accept the truth.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Red on May 01, 2019, 10:04:15 AM
I'm not sure what you are getting at Red.
Greetings George~I was just answering your post with scriptures~even though you made some statements without scriptural support concerning Israel after the flesh.
Quote from: George Reply #37 on: Today at 07:10:18 AM
Clearly it was said they are the chosen people
Not "are" but were in the OT~until the time of the true reformation period from OT to the NT~in which time the apostles who were Jews, interpreted the OT scriptures for us, to show us that a TRUE JEWS is one that is inwardly;  and true circumcision is that of the HEART, in the spirit. and NOT in the letter; whose praise is not men, but of God~through Jesus Christ's faith and obedience. See Romans 2:28,29; Philippians 3:1-9; etc. God's grace does not run through the bloodline, but THROUGH Jesus Christ's, life, death, and resurrection. To believe otherwise is to embrace another gospel which falls under God's curse per Galatians 1-5:4.
Quote from: George Reply #37 on: Today at 07:10:18 AM
The liberal Amillennialists with their replacement theology distorts this.
George, those who distort biblical truths are those who want to replace God's reveal revelation through his apostles to us with Jewish fables.
Quote from: George Reply #37 on: Today at 07:10:18 AM
Are you one of them?
I'll let Paul answer for me...
Quote from: George Reply #37 on: Today at 07:10:18 AM
Philippians 3:3-9~"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith":
The gift of eternal life is BY GRACE, not through race, but through Jesus Christ's faith, obedience and righteousness, whom the Jews rejected and still do, the ONLY hope for them is God's grace given FREELY through Jesus Christ.
Quote from: George Reply #37 on: Today at 07:10:18 AM
No, that's a liberal amillennial fable. The truth is the scripture I gave you.
George, whatever scriptures you can present to us, the apostle who were themselves JEWS, have interpreted their OT scriptures to point to the CHILDREN OF GOD'S PROMISES in Christ, made up of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. I provided you with Romans 9:4-8, you need to prayerfully consider those scriptures in the light of your doctrine that you hold to~they do not support your understanding.
Quote from: George Reply #37 on: Today at 07:10:18 AM
Not true. Nowhere does the bible call Gentiles Israel.
I must come back to this point and consider it in detail....later.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Dan on May 01, 2019, 05:57:47 PM
And what do you mean Christ is the fulfillment of all prophesy?  )Say_what(
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Chicago Bear on May 02, 2019, 02:26:05 AM
Not true. Nowhere does the bible call Gentiles Israel.

Does Ephesians 2:12-13 not count?


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We are so grateful that the President is on the side of literal Israel and not on the side of Amillennial liberal spiritualists who claim she has been replaced.

No one claims Israel has been replaced, the Israel of God will always be the Israel of God. Though some branches are broken off from her and some branches grafted in to her, she remains constant because she is not a political nation. She is a Spiritual nation.

Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Tony Warren on May 09, 2019, 12:17:16 PM
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You know you guys make such good arguments. I don't understand why people keep arguing the other side when it's so obvious that what you are saying is from scripture.
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Hi Travis,
   It's because good arguments don't bring anyone to the truth. People think that it does, but it never does. That's a Biblically proven fact. If that were the case, then the Scribes and Pharisees and all the people of Israel that Christ preached the gospel to, would have thrown their hands up and all declared that He was right and they were wrong in their beliefs. Because He was the "Perfect" teacher, defender and arbiter of truth. But that didn't happen because good arguments don't bring anyone to truth, the Spirit of God does.

John 16:13

Without that Spirit of God dragging us to truth (John 6:44), not one of us would "receive" God's truth in love in acceptance of it. We'd be just like all others, convinced that this truth of God testified was merely the words of men. That's the essence of what deception is. A spirit of unbelief hereby men justifies lies in order to believe whatever they want. The whole world outside of the faithful Christian has a spirit of unbelief and is helplessly in bondage to sin. He is at enmity with the truth. That included many of the Israelites, and sadly that includes many professing Christians as well, since they are no better. So don't be surprised that most professing Christians will not receive the love of truth. Instead, be gratified and exceedingly thankful that God has been so merciful to you that you might receive it.

1st Thessalonians 2:13

That's the difference, and we need to thank God, rather than pretend we are better than those who won't receive truth, smarter than those who are ignorant and without understanding, or more righteous than those who rwemain in their sins. The Scriptures that are witnessed to us "is not" to us as the words of men "only" because of the sovereign grace of God. That Spirit working within us that we (As the Noble Bereans) receive it with all readiness of mind as God's word.


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I don't know where this reign of Christ on earth came from. Has it been around a long time?
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It's been around almost since the prophesy was first delineated. It's been called by different names, but it's simply "carnal unbelief." The Scribes and Pharisees, the Priests and religious leaders believed it when Christ came to Jerusalem and preached of His Kingdom. At first they thought that He had come to physically set them at liberty from their oppressors the Romans, as they literally understood the prophecy to pertain. They believed that Their Messiah was to come and establish an Earthly kingdom and rule from the Holy physical city Jerusalem. And when they found out this was not the case, and that He spoke to them of Spiritual things, they quickly abandoned Him. i.e., His kingdom was not of this world and they wanted a Messiah who would come to rule in a kingdom of this world. They couldn't understand his Parables, Proverbs and Spiritual sayings because their minds were not Spiritual, but carnal. Thus they turned away from Him "because" Spiritual things just don't make sense to them. e.g.

John 6:56-66

They turned away from Christ because He spoke of Spiritual things, and they didn't have the Spirit to understand them. As they confessed, indeed it was "A Hard Saying" that many of them could not hear because it was a Spiritual saying, and not addressing the physical needs and beliefs of the Kingdom that they harbored. Eat his flesh and drink His blood? Like the thinking of many in our day, to them Christ was a "Spiritualist." Didn't take the Bible literally. And from that time forward many of his disciples turned away from Him and walked no more with Him. Just as they think of us today as crazy Spiritualizers who distort the Kingdom narrative, when we are the ones with the eal Christ-centered truth of it. Selah.

So yes, these carnal belief systems have been around a long time. Premillennialists have built upon the errors that went before them, not invented them. There is nothing new under the sun.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"i acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Philly Dawg on May 10, 2019, 07:41:28 AM
 )GoodPopst(  )God-Bless-You(
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: savedbysovereigngrace99 on May 31, 2019, 07:11:49 AM
I read the thread Davis. It has not been explained where it says the so called conditional promises were fulfilled. It also has not been explained how God promised them the land forever unconditionally in Genesis 17 and most of you still say the land was promised conditionally? See the scripture.

Right ON! Don't let them bully you Joe. You are correct in your thinking based on the literal interpretation of Scripture.

Ge 17:8
"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

case closed!

Gen 17:8 is speaking of the new heavens and earth for believers. Peter writes here 2 Pet 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Title: Re: Christ as the fulfillment of all prophecy
Post by: Mila Ostrovsky on May 31, 2019, 09:42:27 AM

I read the thread Davis. It has not been explained where it says the so called conditional promises were fulfilled. It also has not been explained how God promised them the land forever unconditionally in Genesis 17 and most of you still say the land was promised conditionally? See the scripture.

Right ON! Don't let them bully you Joe. You are correct in your thinking based on the literal interpretation of Scripture.

Ge 17:8
"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

case closed!

Bully him? Scripture is not a bully, it's truth. He can either accept it or deny it.

Genesis 17:8
"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

Israel has never had the physical land as an everlasting possession and so it is plain that is not what God was talking about. God even threw them out of the land. An everlasting or eternal land is not physical, it's the promised land of heaven. Let me quote you the scripture again.

Hebrews 11:10
"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Do you think that is a physical city just because God inspired the word city used? That's a spiritual city, the only everlasting place of Israel.