The Mountain Retreat

General Discussions => Open Forum => Topic started by: Blade on June 28, 2003, 08:48:20 AM

Title: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Blade on June 28, 2003, 08:48:20 AM
What was most disapointing about yesterday's decision about homosexual (so called) rights, is that four republican appointed judges voted for it. So what is the difference? There isn't one bit of difference between republicans and democrats except their rhetoric.

And I'll bet we get the same thing when they ruile for abortion again. This whole country is going to the dogs and there seems nothing we can do about it. These judges claimed the constitution was violated, but we all know the constitution says nothing about deviate sexual behaviour being protected in the home. Is beastiality protected by the constitution? No. So these judges lied in their decision.

The last court said there was nothing in the constitution which forbid the law. Now this court says there is? What has changed over a few years? The Constitution hasn't changed. It's a case of social values changing.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Sue Landow on June 28, 2003, 10:00:00 AM
We're living in a world where people these days justify anything. Political correctness is a fact of life. When you have Christians like R.C. Sproul coming out saying homosexuals are born that way, and the President saying we should respect homosexuals, what do you expect. It's a new social climate. Very few (including Christians) are going to come out against homosexuals today because it is an automatic death sentence if you're in the public eye in any way. If you're a politician, you'll be persecuted by the media, and probably lose your job. If you are a christian, you'll be called hateful or homophobic and insensitive. Christian minister and football player Reggie White, simply said that he thought the bible taught that homosexuality was wrong, and he was dragged through the mud in the media for over a month. You have to be strong to take a stand, and Christians today are not strong.

You'll be lucky if you get two responses here, because people are all brainwashed to think speaking out is unchristian.

I remember a post a few years ago where Tony Warren wrote that this country was being systematically brainwashed by the media. Sorry to say, I totally disagreed with it. I now totally agree with it. Television is warping this country's sense of right and wrong, and it's most affecting our children.

But the adults are not immune either. My sister is getting tattos because she saw on TV that everyone else is getting them, and they look cool. My cousin, once a conservative, is  now arguing with me that homosexuals are born that way nad it's not really their fault.

The courts reversed themselves on this issue because the media has this constant drumbeat for gay movies, sitcoms, and rights, and it is affecting society adversesly. Everyone is accepting homosexuality as a fact of life. Did you think because the judges were Republican, they were somehow more noble or immune to this brainwashing? That's a myth. Voting republicans in isn't going to change a thing, because they are part of the problem also. Have no delusion that Republicans are going to straighten out this country. That's a dream and a myth, not reality.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Tony Warren on June 28, 2003, 12:19:50 PM
>>>
The courts reversed themselves on this issue because the media has this constant drumbeat for gay movies, sitcoms, and rights, and it is affecting society adversesly. Everyone is accepting homosexuality as a fact of life. Did you think because the judges were Republican, they were somehow more noble or immune to this brainwashing?
<<<

You hit the proverbial nail on the head. Society has changed, and Christians, instead of holding fast (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 2nd Timothy 1:13) the doctrines in the testimony of Christ, are changing right along with it. But when you change with the world, are ye not just like the world?

Proverbs 22:28

The ancient landmarks were "boundary markers" which marked the separation between one land and another. The word of God was once the ancient landmark that separated the church from the world, but now those landmarks have been removed so that there really is not much difference between the two principalities. They like the same music, the same reasons for breaking a marriage, the same immodest clothes, the same TV programs, the same luxuries, they have the same philosophies of life, and the same attitudes towards immorality. It is that same "live and let live" attitude that has done much damage to the church. Has not God before warned the churches:

Revelation 3:3

The church is warned to hold fast the true faith, the first works, the things they have received and heard of Christianity, but the church today is careless and falling away from that sound base faster than it ever has. The rise in acceptance of Homosexuality by the church is just one example of many. God says this is an abomination, but today's "Politically Correct" Preachers want to soften that, by saying it is just a unfortunate birth defect, which we should all have compassion for and be sensitive to. A birth defect makes it involuntary, the person then not responsible for sin. Just as alcoholism is now a disease, making it involuntary and removing responsibility. There is no taking responsibility anymore for anything, it's all hereditary, or because of man's upbringing, or because of neglect. Surely God is a God of love and will see they're not responsible and have compassion..

Leviticus 18:22

God didn't say it was a involuntary birth defect, He said don't do it, under the judgment of severe consequences. Indeed you are right about "warped" views. I receive many letters from irate professed "Christians" asking why I wrote the article about homosexuality being an abomination to God, as if I should never have testified to God's word plainly declaring that.  We are living in a day of spiritual insanity, where even professing Christians are seduced, deluded or blinded to the truth. These enablers are not all out in the world, they are in the church as well.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Eowyn on July 23, 2003, 08:14:13 AM
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and the President saying we should respect homosexuals, what do you expect.
Why is this a problem? Why do we magnify homosexuality? Surely it is not the unforgiveable sin. We must respect all people, and that is not mutally exclusive of disrespecting thier actions or decions.

Yes, homosexuality is wrong. But those who practise it need to repent and then be accepted by churches, not ostracised by them.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 23, 2003, 09:44:21 AM
and the President saying we should respect homosexuals, what do you expect.
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Why is this a problem?

 If you are a Christian and do not know why this is a problem, then how can anyone here tell you?

Should we respect Prostitutes? Should we respect Murderers? Should we respect Torturers? Should we respect the Child Molesting Priest? The answer is no. Neither should we respect homosexuals. And the President should know better than to say something like that since he calls himself a christian. But He is also a politician looking for votes.

We can respect "former" muderers, rapists and homosexuals, but a Christoian should not respect present murderers, homosexuals and rapists. They have no part in the Kingdom of heaven and no respect of real Christians.

 1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Such were some of us, unrespectable and damned, but now are we different, washed, made clean.

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Why do we magnify homosexuality? Surely it is not the unforgiveable sin. We must respect all people, and that is not mutally exclusive of disrespecting thier actions or decions.

We don't magnify homosexuality, God does. God used it as a sign of coming destruxction. It's the sign of degradation in society and the collapse of morals and the fear of God. God calls it an abomination. What do you call it?

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Yes, homosexuality is wrong. But those who practise it need to repent and then be accepted by churches, not ostracised by them.

Those who repent are accepted by the Churches. It is those who do not repent and want to be both Christians and homosexuals who those who are not accepted and ostacised by bible believing Churches. As well they should be.

This liberal philosophy in the Church of let's just love everyone and not say anything is wrong is it's downfall. There must be discipline in the Church, or else there is chaos.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 23, 2003, 06:18:40 PM
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Should we respect Prostitutes? Should we respect Murderers?

Indeed.  Should we respect liars?  Should we respect people who cheat on their taxes?  Who rip people off?

I guess we probably are working from a different definition of the word "respect"...

I'm certainly not saying that all sins are equal, but Eowyn has a point.

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We don't magnify homosexuality, God does. God used it as a sign of coming destruction

Are you thinking of Paul's discussion in Romans 1?  Or something else?

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God calls it an abomination. What do you call it?

Don't forget He also calls faulty weights and measures an abomination.  (Proverbs 11:1)  Do you treat shopkeepers who rip people off the same way?
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 23, 2003, 09:01:50 PM
Don't forget He also calls faulty weights and measures an abomination.  (Proverbs 11:1)  Do you treat shopkeepers who rip people off the same way?

I'm confused. Are you a Christian or not? Do you believe the word of God or not? Let's not kid ourselves here. Of course it's an abomination. Why would you attempt to make it out to be anything less?

Not only thieving shopkeepers, but Ministers ripping off the congregation are an abomination. Of course they are. Just what are you trying to say? That they are not? That God is a liar? Or that abomination isn't really that bad? Just what are you saying about these scriptures?
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Kenneth White on July 24, 2003, 04:12:05 AM

I'm certainly not saying that all sins are equal, but Eowyn has a point.

It seems to me that both you and Eowyn have been infected with a strain of postmodernistic or postchristianistic thought. Much of the Church  today has been religiously disestablished by the PC parade of media and social acceptance of homosexuality. But Christians should hold fast God's word and not be infected with this sickness.

Would you tell the preacher he should not speak out against murder, adultery, or Prostitution  because he is picking on those people or singling out this one sin? What does God say about homosexuals? He says that they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He doesn't say, don't ever repeat that. That's the witness of God's word.

I guess I'm just old fashioned, because I cannot really fathom how a Christian can protest another Christian who makes a post saying it is wrong for the courts to decriminalize homosexuality or that says homosexual marriages are wrong. And if I had to make judgement, I don't even think such people are Christian. It doesn't make sense to me.

Their state of mind just goes to show the really sad state Christianity is in now. How many years ago would most Christians think someone who protested condemning homosexuality was possessed of the devil. Even non-christians would think so. But today they probably either agree with the PC path, or are sympathetic to what you are saying about homosexuals. That's abomination. And that's why both society and the Church is in trouble.

They made their own rules, and their own laws. But when you've danced to the music, you're going to have to pay the piper.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Kenneth White on July 24, 2003, 04:18:54 AM
This whole country is going to the dogs and there seems nothing we can do about it. These judges claimed the constitution was violated, but we all know the constitution says nothing about deviate sexual behaviour being protected in the home. Is beastiality protected by the constitution? No.

There is something we can do about it. Keep preaching the truth about these abominations. Don't be dissuaded by the PC Christians who secretly hate everything God stands for. It's not going to change the world, or even deliver them from evil, but it's part of the Christian's work.

 Jeremiah 5:12 They have belied the LORD, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine:
 13 And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
 14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Daisy on July 24, 2003, 07:01:20 AM
Kenneth and Blade, I couldn't agree more. I am so sick of the media pushing the liberal homosexual agenda. It's just gotten sickening over the last couple years. It's almost that every program has to have a homosexual, with a new twist coming out regularly. Now it's "Queer eye for the straight guy" fashions. You would think the homosexuals are taking over the world if you went by the media frenzy to get in on the Homosexual craze. And all these Christian apologists make me sick to my stomach. I think they are traitors to the christian cause.

What's even worse is the silence of the Church on the issue. Just what is the Church good for anymore anyway besides raising money, abandoning doctrines, and campaigning for politicians? They've lost their way and we're hearing the results of their abandoning the gospel more and more. Anyone who thinks there is not a famine of hearing the word of God need only listen to Christians on this issue. And it's not just a few either. It's a great flood of brain washed people.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Mike Repass on July 24, 2003, 09:19:02 AM
jd@ « Reply #5 on: July 23, 2003, 04:18:40 PM »
I guess we probably are working from a different definition of the word "respect"...

Which definition are you working with so everyone can be on the same page?

Main Entry: 1re·spect
Pronunciation: ri-'spekt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin respectus, literally, act of looking back, from respicere to look back, regard, from re- + specere to look -- more at SPY
Date: 14th century
1 : a relation or reference to a particular thing or situation <remarks having respect to an earlier plan>
2 : an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION
3 a : high or special regard : ESTEEM b : the quality or state of being esteemed c plural : expressions of respect or deference <paid our respects>
4 : PARTICULAR, DETAIL <a good plan in some respects>
- in respect of chiefly British : with respect to : CONCERNING
- in respect to : with respect to : CONCERNING
- with respect to : with reference to : in relation to

Main Entry: 2respect
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1560
1 a : to consider worthy of high regard : ESTEEM b : to refrain from interfering with
2 : to have reference to : CONCERN
synonym see REGARD
- re·spect·er noun

Main Entry: self-re·spect
Pronunciation: -ri-'spekt
Function: noun
Date: circa 1814
1 : a proper respect for oneself as a human being
2 : regard for one's own standing or position

Main Entry: 1es·teem
Pronunciation: is-'tEm
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 archaic : WORTH, VALUE
2 archaic : OPINION, JUDGMENT
3 : the regard in which one is held; especially : high regard <the esteem we all feel for her>

Main Entry: 3worth
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1 a : monetary value <farmhouse and lands of little worth> b : the equivalent of a specified amount or figure <a dollar's worth of gas>
2 : the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held <a literary heritage of great worth>
3 a : moral or personal value <trying to teach human worth> b : MERIT, EXCELLENCE <a field in which we have proved our worth>
4 : WEALTH, RICHES

Main Entry: 1mer·it
Pronunciation: 'mer-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French merite, from Latin meritum, from neuter of meritus, past participle of merEre to deserve, earn; akin to Greek meiresthai to receive as one's portion, meros part
Date: 14th century
1 a obsolete : reward or punishment due b : the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts c : a praiseworthy quality : VIRTUE d : character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also : ACHIEVEMENT
2 : spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits
3 a plural : the intrinsic nature of a legal case apart from considerations of circumstance, jurisdiction, or procedure b : individual significance or justification
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Tony Warren on July 24, 2003, 12:31:36 PM
>>>
Yes, homosexuality is wrong. But those who practise it need to repent and then be accepted by churches, not ostracised by them.

Those who repent are accepted by the Churches. It is those who do not repent and want to be both Christians and homosexuals who those who are not accepted and ostacised by bible believing Churches. As well they should be.
<<<

That exactly right. No self-respecting Christian ostracizes or excludes by company former homosexuals who like any other sinner repents of their sin. But those who want to continue to be homosexuals, and yet take the name of Christ should be ostracized. Because they are making a mockery of the name of Christ and the new creation.

2nd Corinthians 5:17-18

To say we "respect" Homosexuals is to disrespect God. To say we have no problem with Homosexuals being able to practice their abominations lawfully, is to deny that we are a new creature renewed in Christ. To say homosexuals can be Christians is to deny the new birth, the working of the Spirit, and the word of God that "plainly" declares that no Homosexual shall inherit the Kingdom of God.  Those following Christ understand that many Christians are former homosexuals, they are not Christian homosexuals anymore than others are Christian prostitutes.

Romans 6:1-2

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I guess we probably are working from a different definition of the word "respect"...

What "alternative" definition would that be? Respect means to have a special elevated regard for someone. It means to hold one in honor or high esteem. It means to think they are of good character. It means to have reverence or good consideration of someone. It means to have a high degree of regard or trust in a person's virtue or traits. None of which the Christian should have for Homosexuals because even by your own admission, God calls it an abomination, and declares unambiguously that these people shall not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. Therefore to have respect for them is to be an offense to God.


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Don't forget He also calls faulty weights and measures an abomination.  (Proverbs 11:1)  Do you treat shopkeepers who rip people off the same way?

Absolutely, they are criminals. Or what you really mean is do I say it is wrong for Christians to say they have respect for rip-off artists and thieves who run dishonest shops? You BETCHA! They won't inherit the Kingdom of heaven either. Along with fornicators, adulterers, and idolaters. They're all an abomination to God. For us to say we respect them would be decidedly unchristian.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10

..and such were some of us... But not anymore, because now they are born from above to have cast off the old man.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Knobbly on July 25, 2003, 01:32:47 AM
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Should we respect Prostitutes? Should we respect Murderers? Should we respect Torturers? Should we respect the Child Molesting Priest? The answer is no. Neither should we respect homosexuals.

So your saying we shouldn't respect any sinner?  If that was the case none of us here could respect each other because we are all sinners.  What about the child who grabs a sweet without paying for it, or the tramp who steals some newspaper are they sinner's not worthy of our respect?  Is King David not worthy of our respect because he was a lustful perve? (and a murder to boot)

Why do homosexuals deserve a special kind of 'disrespect' but adulterous heterosexuals don't?
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 25, 2003, 02:00:26 AM
Well, this is a learning experience for me...

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It seems to me that both you and Eowyn have been infected with a strain of postmodernistic or postchristianistic thought.  

Would you be able to explain this please?  Because I really can't for the life of me see why.  I thought I was just asking a few questions.  Maybe it's my blind spot, maybe we've got some cultural differences, or maybe it just comes down to communication difficulties...

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I'm confused. Are you a Christian or not? Do you believe the word of God or not?

Yes, I'm a Christian.  Yes, I believe the Word of God.  Have I said anything to make you doubt that??

It seems form your definition of respect as "to hold one in honor or high esteem" I would be happy to say that I don't respect homosexuals.  But there are two important points to bear in mind.  One is that they were created in God's image, and bear the remains of the same.  The other is Knobbly's point that we are all sinners.  It was this that I was alluding to in my comparison with dishonest merchants - it isn't just homosexuality that is an abomination to God.  

Maybe the key to all this is whether someone has repented.  Ultimately, I guess, there is only one sin that is grounds for ostracising or excommunicating someone, and that is the sin of inpenitence.

Having said that, when it says to treat someone as an unbeliever, that means to evangelise them, not ignore them.

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I guess I'm just old fashioned, because I cannot really fathom how a Christian can protest another Christian who makes a post saying it is wrong for the courts to decriminalize homosexuality or that says homosexual marriages are wrong. And if I had to make judgement, I don't even think such people are Christian. It doesn't make sense to me.

And if I had to make a judgement I'd say be careful about jumping to conclusions based on a single post...

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Oneil on July 25, 2003, 07:53:08 AM
Yes, I'm a Christian.  Yes, I believe the Word of God.  Have I said anything to make you doubt that??

Frankly, yes. I know that there are many definitions of Christian out there, but it's getting to be ridiculous. Christians do not defend homosexuality. Christians do not tell others to respect homosexuality. Christians do not speak out in support of decriminalizing homosexuality. And Christians do not do their best to make homosexuality acceptable as just another sin like Christians who sin. Yes, your idea of who is a Christian is obviously quite different from those of us who hold fast to the biblical laws.

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But there are two important points to bear in mind.  One is that they were created in God's image, and bear the remains of the same.

 Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

This abomination is hardly the image of God deserving our respect, it is the anti-image. A Christian would have to be delusional in thinking that those practicing this unnatural, despicable and vile act are acting in the image of God and deserve respect.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 25, 2003, 08:04:59 PM
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I know that there are many definitions of Christian out there, but it's getting to be ridiculous. Christians do not defend homosexuality. Christians do not tell others to respect homosexuality. Christians do not speak out in support of decriminalizing homosexualirty. And Christians do not do their best to make homosexuality acceptable as just another sin like christians who sin

I've looked back over my posts in this thread (and there have been but two) to find a basis for your suggestions that I have been saying these things, but have found none.

I can't remember defending homosexuality.  I don't think I told others to respect homosexuality.  And for the life of me I can't see how I spoke out in the decriminalisation of homosexuality. 

I may be guily (in part) of your last accusation.  I pointed out that other things are called abominations (such as using false weights and measures), but I most certainly did not imply that any sin is acceptable.  I do not believe that all sins are equal, but I do believe that all sins are deserving of hell-fire.

In mentioning the image of God, I was implying that there is at least some measure of respect we give to all human beings, because they were created in God's image.  This is somewhat similar, I suppose, to the respect that we show to the inanimate creation.  I certainly was not, (as you so strangely assume) saying we should respect homosexuals because of their homosexuality.  But maybe I'm drifting into that damnable heresy of saying we should hate the sin and love the sinner.   :-X

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Yes, your idea of who is a Christian is obviously quite different from those of us who hold fast to the biblical laws.

OK, just to make sure we're on the same page here... I wasn't going to do this but Oneil - can you tell me what a Christian is??

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those of us who hold fast to the biblical laws.

Gee, I thought I did hold fast to biblical laws.  But you'll probably say that I've just broken the 3rd commandment.



Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Sue Landow on July 26, 2003, 11:56:45 AM
Yes, homosexuality is wrong. But those who practise it need to repent and then be accepted by churches, not ostracised by them.


Eowyn and jd@

 You're taking a false scenario and using it to defend homosexuals while claiming you're not. Are you just making this stuff up to comfort homosexuals? I don't see any other reason for your replies. I don't know of any Church which is ostracizing homosexuals "if they've repented" as you've implied. And I don't think you do either. You just use that as a pretense to justify your post. As somreone else said, you're just caught up in this politically correct society and their need to show sympathy for these people who commit this abominable act. Because why else would you say this when it's not even true?

No one said we should go out and hurt homosexuals, every post here was speaking out against the new laws and the misguided idea that these people deserve respect. So what are you protesting that we've said? I don't know a Church that won't accept homosexuals if they repent of their former sins. This type response is nonsense and you know it. But you're making it like we're all going out of our way to ostracize homosexuals who have repented. You know that's not true. And furthermore, no one even remotely implied that. You can look over the posts as I have read them several times.

So what are you defending? What are you protesting against in these posts by these good Christians condemning the new laws permitting sodomy, and the acceptance and respect of these people's lifestyles by the Church?
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 27, 2003, 03:07:28 PM
Deuce Johnson
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Well, this is a learning experience for me...


What do you mean? That in contrast to the rest of society most here have little tolerance for even a passive or benign support of Homosexuals? Maybe you were looking for the Catholic Missions Forum, the Medodist Forum, or the Episcopal forum where they confuse love with acceptance and debate whether their Church should ordain Homosexuals. Here most are "Bible Believing" Christians who do not offer a false sense of security to homosexuals. We try and stick to more biblical standards where a spade is called a spade and Homosexuals are not gay, but an abomination to God. They are abominable, abnormal, ungodly, vile, unseemly, and with ungodly unnatural affections. And we don't apologize for using God's Word. I take it you are offended by this?


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I've looked back over my posts in this thread (and there have been but two) to find a basis for your suggestions that I have been saying these things, but have found none.

Well when a number of Christians are posting saying that the laws decriminalizing sodomy are wrong, and demoaning how society is now accepting this abomination, our courts are overstepping it's boundaries, and you chime in agreeing with Eywon who basically asked why are we signling out homosexuals "as if" we should keep quiet about it, I'd say you need to look back over these posts again "in context."

You say you'ree not saying we should not speak out against Homosexuals. You're not saying we should respect Homosexuals. You're not saying the original post condemning the Judges decision decriminalizing homosexuality is right. And you're not saying Homosexuals are in God's image. What are you saying then? That you were really agreeing with all of us all the time about Homosexuals?
 
Afterward I asked, "God calls it an abomination, what do you call it?" And as is typical in these instances, you tritely minimized it saying,

 "Don't forget He also calls faulty weights and measures an abomination.  (Proverbs 11:1)  Do you treat shopkeepers who rip people off the same way?"

That means, "So what, God calls it an abomination, no big deal since thieves are an abomination also." That's the only way anyone could reasonably take that remark. But I feel that it's an offensive remark to Christians who just want to do God's will.

Proverbs 15:9 "The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness."

We all know thieves are an abomination. But no one says why are you picking on thieves, or why are you picking on idolaters, but it's always, "Why are you picking on Homosexuals!" And that is because of society and the new PC agenda of subtle acceptance. As Tony says, the old "slow boiling frog" syndrome.

God doesn't call things abomination lightly. And anyone who has read the scriptures knows that homosexuality is singled out by God, not in one place, but in many places, including using it in the fall of Sodom, and in his illustrations of what happens when he gives people up to Satan because of societies declension.

 Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


If you expect us to apologize for what we see as you minimizing this sin of  vile affections and unnatural ungodly lust, you're wrong. I perceive you were implying that we should leave the Homosexuals alone and pick on some other sin. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. But why else would you respond to a post saying Homosexuality was wrong in such a manner as you did? And now act as if your comments were really misunderstood? These are the same comments we get here everytime someone mentions anything about Homosexuals. We're use to hearing them. It's always the same PC comments that we're hateful for signgling them out, or asking where's the love for them, where's the respect, where's the compassion? The same PC responses all the time.

So when you say you looked and failed to find a basis for any suggestions that you have been saying these things, you didn't have to say them outright. By protesting what we were saying, what else could you be saying?

Put it this way. If you said that idolatry was a sin, and someone responded asking why are you picking on idolaters. And then as a third party I chimed in, "that guy has a good point," what would you think? Wouldn't you reasonably think that I was saying that you shouldn't be talking about the sin of idolatry? Since that is what I was talking about? Look over the posts again and show me anywhere where any christian said anything unchristian about homosexuals. We weren't calling for their beating, we were calling for a return to biblical principles saying that these vile actions should be treated in accordance to God's word, not the laws weakened in order to accept it. Not the PC way it is obviously being treated now.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 27, 2003, 03:20:02 PM
No one said we should go out and hurt homosexuals, every post here was speaking out against the new laws and the misguided idea that these people deserve respect. So what are you protesting that we've said? I don't know a Church that won't accept homosexuals if they repent of their former sins. This type response is nonsense and you know it. But you're making it like we're all going out of our way to ostracize homosexuals who have repented. You know that's not true.

These were exactly my thoughts when I read the responses. What are they protesting that we said? I still cannot figure it out, and obviously they are not telling us either.

 Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Are we singling this abomination out, or is God singling it out as a sign of decline? I think God is.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 28, 2003, 12:50:17 AM
You will understand, I hope, that I'm getting a bit sick of this thread...

Far be it from me to cry misunderstood, but I fear that people have been imputing thoughts and motives and opinions to me that I don't personally hold.

Quote
No one said we should go out and hurt homosexuals, every post here was speaking out against the new laws and the misguided idea that these people deserve respect. So what are you protesting that we've said? I

Who's protesting?  We had a mis-understanding over the word "respect" and it seems that has been cleared up.  

Quote
And we don't apologize for using God's Word. I take it you are offended by this?

Why would you take that?  

Quote
Well when a number of Christians are posting saying that the laws decriminalizing sodomy are wrong, and demoaning how society is now accepting this abomination, our courts are overstepping it's boundaries, and you chime in agreeing with Eywon who basically asked why are we signling out homosexuals

There are worse laws than legalising homosexuality...  

Quote
That you were really agreeing with all of us all the time about Homosexuals?

Well, I suspect we agree more than we differ.  If I'd realised it was such a sensitive topic I probably wouldn't have ventured in...

Quote
That means, "So what, God calls it an abomination, no big deal since thieves are an abomination also." That's the only way anyone could reasonably take that remark. But I feel that it's an offensive remark to Christians who just want to do God's will.

Sorry you were offended my friend.  But surely it would be equally reasonable to take the remark as "hey, we'd better start pestering the government to institute laws that elimnate corporate dishonesty."

Quote
If you expect us to apologize for what we see as you minimizing this sin of  vile affections and unnatural ungodly lust, you're wrong

Believe me, I wouldn't expect that in a thousand years.

Quote
And anyone who has read the scriptures knows that homosexuality is singled out by God, not in one place, but in many places, including using it in the fall of Sodom

Well, maybe I need to read the Bible more.   ::)  But if we did the number crunching as to what sins are mentioned most it might be interesting.  I'd bet my house that it's not homosexuality.


Quote
I perceive you were implying that we should leave the Homosexuals alone and pick on some other sin. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Apology accepted.   8)  I was implying that we should be picking on a lot of sins.  Though I personally think that the "picking on" differs as to whether we are talking about sin in general society, or sin in the church.  We need to be a lot stricter in our churches than we are in our communities.  I have the horrible sinking feeling that the homosexuality debate has already been lost in general society.

I'm a bit out of the whole PC debate, so I didn't realise that you would interpret my comments in those terms.

Quote
why else would you respond to a post saying Homosexuality was wrong in such a manner as you did? And now act as if your comments were really misunderstood?

Well, the simple explanantion would be that my comments were misunderstood...  8)

Thanks for your comprehensive reply Deuce.  Keep it coming...












Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Bruce on July 28, 2003, 10:56:51 AM
Quote
and demoaning [sic] how society is now accepting this abomination, our courts are overstepping it's [sic] boundaries, and you chime in agreeing with Eywon [sic] who basically asked why are we signling [sic] out homosexuals

JD Ampersand,
Snide, very snide. You've only been here a few days, and already you're annoying. You don't have to point out every typo or misspelled word someone makes. You're not showing your intelligence, but your ignorance. You're not grading tests here.

Personally, I think he asked a couple good questions. I'm still waiting for your reasons for agreeing with the protest of the original posts. My guess is, you don't have a reason.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 28, 2003, 06:07:13 PM
Quote
Snide, very snide. You've only been here a few days, and already you're annoying. You don't have to point out every typo or misspelled word someone makes. You're not showing your intelligence, but your ignorance. You're not grading tests here.

Bruce, you're absolutely right.  I was (perhaps justifiably?) annoyed when I wrote it, but there was no excuse for stooping so low.  Deuce (and everyone else), please accept my apology.  I was way out of line.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 28, 2003, 06:13:47 PM
Quote
Personally, I think he asked a couple good questions. I'm still waiting for your reasons for agreeing with the protest of the original posts. My guess is, you don't have a reason.

On the contrary, we've been over this lots.  Other things are abominations in the Bible.  Just because it's an abomination, it doesn't mean it should be a crime.  There are worse laws than that of legalising homosexuality.  We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.  We need to take out the motes in our own eyes before we worry about the beams in unbelievers' eyes, etc., etc.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Kyle on July 28, 2003, 06:44:41 PM
Hey guys.
 Now our tax dollars are going to support homosexual public high schools. Anyone want to try and convince me it's not going from bad to worse to critical? And not a single Christian leader has one bad thing to say about this new development. No wonder Christians don't care.

Nation's First Gay Public High School to Open

 Email this story

 
The Associated Press

July 28, 2003, 12:11 PM EDT


A small alternative public school program has been expanded into a full-fledged school for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students.

The Harvey Milk High School, an expansion of a 1984 city program consisting of two small classrooms for gay students, will enroll about 100 students and will open in the fall.

"I think everybody feels that it's a good idea because some of the kids who are gays and lesbians have been constantly harassed and beaten in other schools," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said at a briefing Monday. "It lets them get an education without having to worry. It solves a discipline problem. And from a pedagogical point of view, this administration -- and previous administrations -- have thought it was a good idea and we'll continue with that."

The school, at 2 Astor Place in the East Village, is undergoing a $3.2 million renovation approved by the old Board of Education last year.

The Hetrick-Martin Institute, a gay-rights youth advocacy group that has managed and financed the program since its inception, has hired William Salzman as principal of the new school.

Salzman is a former Wall Street executive who most recently served as assistant principal of guidance and business at Brooklyn's Automotive High School.

Salzman told the New York Post in Monday editions that the school will be academically challenging and will follow Schools Chancellor Joel Klein's mandatory English and math programs. It also will specialize in computer technology, arts and culinary arts.

State Conservative Party Chairman Mike Long criticized the creation of the school.

On its Web site, the Hetrick-Martin Institute describes the Harvey Milk School as "the nation's first accredited public high school designed to meet the needs of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth (LGBTQ)." It says the school "offers LGBTQ youth an opportunity to obtain a secondary education in a safe and supportive environment. ... We believe that success requires the ability to respect and value the diverse human community."

The school is named after San Francisco's first openly gay city supervisor, Harvey Milk, who was assassinated in 1978 along with Mayor George Moscone.

On the Net: www.nycenet.edu www.hmi.org
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 28, 2003, 11:28:56 PM
Quote
You're not showing your intelligence, but your ignorance

Now that I've apologised for my inappropriate behaviour, may I ask a question?  How on earth does this display one's ignorance??  I've come across this sort of thing before - surely it is not a demonstration of intelligence, but it does not follow that it's a demonstration of ignorance...

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: joossens on July 29, 2003, 03:53:14 AM
When I first heard the idea about an amendment to the constitution banning gay marriage I was all for it.  Now I'm not so sure.  When you forbid a child to do something what do they go and do?  I now see the wisdom in Romans 1:24 that says "God...gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves."  When Christians try to force unbelievers to live by biblical standards of holiness they resist with all their will.  Christians are seen as "the enemy" and are the last ones they would turn to when they become "sin sick."   You can't beat Christianity into people by attempting to take away the sins they so love in their fallen state.  Christians are not supposed to be conformed to this world.  That does not mean we are supposed to force the world to conform to a way of life only Christ can conform them to.  My thinking now is to let the world have their fill of their sins and let us Christians be there for them when they've had enough.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Tony Warren on July 29, 2003, 12:23:31 PM
>>>
When I first heard the idea about an amendment to the constitution banning gay marriage I was all for it.  Now I'm not so sure.  When you forbid a child to do something what do they go and do?
<<<

This is typical of the madness of Christian thinking today, which is "no Christian thinking" at all. What man thinks is wise is actually the foolishness of humanism, a severely flawed science of reasoning.  ..with logic like you just demonstrated, it is self-evident that we should not then forbid a child to do anything they want to do, because they'll just want to do it more. That's thinking that is actually foolishness! I say, you are correct! It is foolishness and it is madness, but it is the wisdom of the world which sadly much of the church has bought into.

Ecclesiastes 7:25

1st Corinthians 3:19

Just because something seems wise in our own eyes, doesn't mean it is. To refrain from forbidding evil because it might encourage evil, is obviously foolishness. There is no other Biblical word for it.


Quote
>>>
I now see the wisdom in Romans 1:24 that says "God...gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves."
<<<

That there is wisdom in Romans is evident, but that this has anything to do with the issue at hand is debatable.


Quote
>>>
When Christians try to force unbelievers to live by biblical standards of holiness they resist with all their will.
<<<

First, Christians do not force anyone to live by Biblical standards. Where did you get that presupposition? We live in a Republic. The only power that Christians have is one vote a piece. How then are we forcing anyone to do anything?  We spread the gospel, and if anyone doesn't want to hear it, they don't have to listen to it. It's a relatively free country in that regard. ...for now.

Matthew 7:6

We don't force Christianity on anyone, we freely preach the gospel of Christ, and those who will hear it, will hear it. The Roman Catholics and even some Reformers years ago attempted forcing the gospel upon people at the point of a sword. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. But preaching against laws that are against God's laws is not forcing anyone to do anything, despite the "Politically Correct" jargon. It is delusion to think so. It is the duty and work of every true Christian to stand for God's Word, just as Stephen did. Just as the old Hymn with the refrain:

Dare to be a Daniel
 Dare to stand alone
Dare to have a purpose firm
 Dare to make it known

This is not a wrong thing to do, it is an obligation of Christians to stand up for the word of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse people. We stand even though those all around us are settling, compromising, and making concessions with the devil. We know that the only real "force" that will turn men from their abominations is the power of the gospel. ..of which the "true" believers are not ashamed, and for which they do not apologize.

Romans 1:16

This is the only "force" Christians use. Yes, condemning homosexuality and saying that removing laws against homosexuality and instituting news laws that legalize it, or that allow unnatural marriages are unGodly and should not be, is extremely unpopular these days. Being a true Christian is unpopular. It's not politically correct in the church, and certainly not in the world. It's considered hateful, foolish, and stressful, while not being against an amendment to the constitution banning gay marriage is considered the wise and prudent thing to do. But then the gospel truth has always been considered unwise or foolish, why should it be any different now.

1st Corinthians 1:18

Christ died so that we could preach the gospel of truth without fear. Even as Stephen.


Quote
>>>
Christians are seen as "the enemy" and are the last ones they would turn to when they become "sin sick."
<<<

Where have you been? Christians were 'always' seen as the enemy, and these people wouldn't know sin sickness if it jumped up and bit them--except God be merciful and draw them. They look at us as the enemy because we are the enemy of unrighteousness.

Matthew 10:34-38

No, the problem is not that Christians are seen as the enemy, the problem is that the Christians have become the friend. Christians refuse to abide with any tribulation, or to take up the cross and follow Him. Christians have forsaken being lawfully correct, to join the chorus of the politically correct. What homosexual will look upon Christians who say they agree we should decriminalize homosexuality and that says we should not speak out against these changes, as an enemy? None Will. That's delusionary. These type Christians are friends with the way of the world, not enemies. They'll use and love them until it's no longer convenient. Because these type Christians have forsaken God as their head, committing spiritual adultery against Him. That's what friendship with the world does.

James 4:4

Rather than be the candlestick that was to be set upon a hill that it shine and be the light of the world (Matthew 5:14-16), the unfaithful bride has become the thing cheering on the darkness under the guise of a vain philosophy that, "darkness will make them friends of the light."

That's Foolishness with God, but that's the wisdom of the world.


Quote
>>>
You can't beat Christianity into people by attempting to take away the sins they so love in their fallen state.
<<<

How far we have come when preaching against homosexuality and keeping laws forbidding it, is now considered "Beating Christianity Into People." I suppose we should then throw up our hands and say all is well, ignore the law, keep your sin, you shall have peace?

Romans 7:7-13
Quote
>>>
My thinking now is to let the world have their fill of their sins and let us Christians be there for them when they've had enough.
<<<

The unsaved never have enough of their sins unless God "drags" them to Christ (John 6:44). That's like the hyper-calvinists saying, "lets not evangelize let's just sit back and wait for the wicked to look for us." While it's true no man can come to Christ except the father draw Him, that does not mean the church should forsake the great commission.  Perhaps the world has no Savour because the church is no longer the salt of the earth? Perhaps the world is having their fill of sin "because" the sound of Christians are not there as a witness to the truth. Perhaps the world is becoming dark "because" the candlestick which God Instituted to be the Light of the world is not prepared with oil to light the paths of reconciliation? Perhaps if the virgins do not trim their lamps, then it is they themselves who are responsible for the darkness, and the way the wicked cannot find?

The point is, faith comes by hearing, not by keeping quiet and being politically correct. And the word of the gospel is both a defense and an offense. How are the saints overcome and trodden under foot? Because there is a breach in their Spiritual defenses. The word of God is being silenced.

Romans 10:15-17

Without the word of God, is there any wonder that people are departing from the faith? Faith comes by hearing. But with the attitudes of most Christians that we should not shine the light too brightly lest we blind someone, is part of the plague of darkness sweeping over this world. Selah. Why would we even think it a mystery that the world is becoming progressively darker when there are so many "closet apologists" for homosexual tolerance by the church. No one should really be surprised.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 30, 2003, 09:15:55 AM
Hey guys.
Now our tax dollars are going to support homosexual public high schools. Anyone want to try and convince me it's not going from bad to worse to critical?

Kyle,
  Chill out. I hear it's really not that bad and we should just shut up. Are we Christians just exagerating. Stop picking on homosexuality and pick on children stealing candy. That's an abomination too   >:(

 And I'll bet there is not a single pastor preaching about the evil of homosexuality. They're preaching about tolerance.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 30, 2003, 09:29:28 AM
Alternative Lifestyle (Sodomy)

1.      Alternative Lifestyle:  Proverbs 16:25
            a.       Lie of Satan  (seemeth right)
            b.      Life of Sin (ways of death)
2.      Abomination:  Leviticus 18:22
            a.       God`s creation, Genesis 1:27  "male and female"
            b.      God`s character,  Leviticus 11:44  "I am holy"
         c.      God's decision,  Leviticus 20:13 "It is abomination"
3.      Against Nature:  Romans 1:26-27
            a.       Shame to humanity  (against nature)
            b.      Sexual perversion  (leaving the natural use of the woman)
            c.      An appropriate reward and that which they deserved.
4.      Aids Epidemic:  Romans 1:24
            a.       Plague of homosexuality  "uncleanness"
            b.      Possibly the judgment of God  "God gave them up."
5.      Answer:  I Corinthians 6:9-11
            a.       Redemption by the blood
            b.      Repentance from sin

Conclusion:  Sodomy or the unnatural abomination of Homosexuality is not an alternative lifestyle, it is a gross sin. It`s a sin against a Holy God and against humanity. God hates it! It is God`s design to save the sinner if they will repent from their sin.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 30, 2003, 09:37:30 AM
When I first heard the idea about an amendment to the constitution banning gay marriage I was all for it.  Now I'm not so sure.  When you forbid a child to do something what do they go and do?


You cannot be serious! Don't ban gay marriages because gays might marry? That's the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard a Chrisrtian make. It doesn't even deserve a response but I can't believe you actually believe that.

 Proverbs 12:15 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise."

 I'm just so sick of the excuses by so-called christians for allowing every abominable thing that man can dream of. Excuses which are so lame that they don't even make sense. excuses like not banning homosexual marriages because it might make homosexuals marry. Some of the Christians on this forum are simply incredible.  :(
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 30, 2003, 09:46:49 AM
Other things are abominations in the Bible.  Just because it's an abomination, it doesn't mean it should be a crime.

[spoeall check off]
jd@,
That doesn't make sense either. Abomination by God's definition is criminal or illegal. It's against God's law. So do we say so what, or do we say homosexuality is a crime? I guess it all depends on if we are really Christian.

It has been a crime for hundreds of years because the Church did it's job and society took it's cue. As Christians, the only thing we can justly say is that we won't have any part in decriminalizing homosexuality. So you can justify it by being silent about this crime all you want, but this is not what we should do as Christians. We are either for Christ or against him. There is no standing on the sidelines or standing on the fense.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on July 30, 2003, 10:00:08 AM
First, Christians do not force anyone to live by Biblical standards. Where did you get that presupposition? We live in a republic. The only power that Christians have is one vote a piece. How then are we forcing anyone to do anything. We spread the gospel, and if anyone doesn't want to hear it, they don't have to listen to it. it's a relatively free country.

Matthew 7:6

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Thank you Tony. You are the voice of integrity, courage, and reason around here. Funny how we both come to the passages God uses about the "foolishness" of man wise in his own conceits, clean in his own eyes. That's the first thing I thought of when I heard these lame excuses. Man trying to out-smart God in his own thinking.

 I love how Christians are forcing people when they preach against laws promoting homosexuality, but when people preach against laws promoting morality, they're not forcing. They are exercising their freedom of speech. There is a double standard in the foolishness of some Christians.

How is speaking out against legalizing homosexual activity forcing anyone? It's Crazy! You're right. Today's modern PC christian makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on July 30, 2003, 11:28:35 PM
Quote
That doesn't make sense either. Abomination by God's definition is criminal or illegal. It's against God's law.

No, that's not what crime means.  There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it.  For example, pride is an abomination, but (not surprisingly!) the bible does not ask governments to outlaw it.  I do believe, though, that homosexuality is not in that category.

Deuce, I find some of your comments of grave concern.  I fear that you have pigeon-holed me in your mind, and are interpreting all my statements in the light of that.  I have been asking questions in order to challenge your thinking, and you have automatically assumed that I am liberal/PC/pro-gay/whatever.  

As it turns out, I'm an Australian.  And over here, we look at some things differently.  It has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical, we simply have a different cultural climate.  Now, if I may put it bluntly, Deuce, you have been acting with prejudice, along with a couple of others here.  We all have our own blind spots, of course, but I was posting my comments here as a sort of test, and some people did not pass.  Some of you have not been able to handle a guy like me coming in who shares your theological beliefs, but has a different way of looking at things.  

Don't worry too much, though.  I'm not offended.  Actually, it's been rather fun.  "As iron sharpens iron, etc."


Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Tony Warren on July 31, 2003, 03:45:00 PM
>>>
There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it.
<<<

..your point being that the United States was wrong for ever instituting laws banning Homosexual activity in the first place, because that's not their duty?  :S_Confused: ...and that it is now right that they are changing these laws so that we now permit this immorality? Is that your point? Because if that is "NOT" your point, then it has become painfully clear to me that you have no point as far as I can tell. All I hear you saying is "..that's not what I'm saying," or "..that's not my point." So just once, maybe you can tell us what you "are" saying or what is your point so we won't have to keep guessing. Because you cannot have it both ways. For the law was either wrong in the first place, or it was right. Not BOTH! It cannot be that it was right, but now it's wrong. So please elucidate. What is your point?

The fact is, the United States was completely within its right to institute laws banning the immoral activity of Homosexuality, and Christians were right for supporting the laws. And if that be the case (and it is) then it is wrong to now change the law so that we can allow this abomination. Which is all we were saying in the first place. You may "tap dance" all around this truth if you like, but it is really no different than the United States instituting the very same type moral laws banning sexual relations with children. I don't hear you saying those laws were wrong. There is not one wit of difference between the two laws. They are both laws banning what "we" think is immoral activity. When measured with a just balance, it hould be quite obvious that there is no difference.

Proverb 11:1


Quote
>>>
Deuce, I find some of your comments of grave concern.  I fear that you have pigeon-holed me in your mind, and are interpreting all my statements in the light of that.
<<<

What about me finding some of your retorts of grave concern. I fear that your statements are so corrupted by the "way of the world," and so consistently convoluted with worldly social pollution, that one can only interpret them as the dichotomy in the intellectual (yet primordial) soup of cultural modernism.

Colossians 2:8

This Greek word spoil [sulagogeo] means to be led away captive. It's used in the sense of being plundered or taken in warfare, or seized by conquest. It can only refer to professed Christians being deceived by the humanistic philosophies of the world.  Philosophies that seduce, entice, lead them captive, and ultimately strip them of their faith (the faith of Christ cannot be stripped). We have a choice to make. We can go along with the vain philosophies and rudiments (arrangements or ways) of the world, or we can reject the hubris of modernism and follow after God's laws. But not both!


Quote
>>>
I have been asking questions in order to challenge your thinking, and you have automatically assumed that I am liberal/PC/pro-gay/whatever.
<<<

The mind or thinking of the true Christian cannot be challenged by worldly thoughts about decriminalizing Homosexuality, or with the rudiments of this world. The faithful Christian is challenged with the Spirit that dwells within him, and the witness of the word (as opposed to the witness of the world).

Hebrews 8:10

I don't know about Deuce, but I do know that your way of thinking is not novel, and I think I can "justly assume" that it is a product of our time, culture and environment. What little I hear you saying, when compared with the facts of this issue, seems neither logical nor Biblical. And yet somehow you perceive it to be both. You can discern the weather by looking at the sky, but how is it that you cannot discern the righteousness of Christians being against decriminalizing homosexuality, which God calls an abomination?


Quote
>>>
As it turns out, I'm an Australian.  And over here, we look at some things differently.  It has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical, we simply have a different cultural climate. 
<<<

Cultural Climate is a euphemism for "Post Modernism!" Post modern Christianity is a humanistic, fragmented, politically correct, compromising, frivolous, law-changing, corrupt, philosophical,  throw away society. Of course, I do not deny that attitudes have indeed changed with the times or the "cultural climate" (as you call it). I deny that this cannot be the wickedness of post modernism, which is a premise that no definite terms, boundaries, or absolute truths exist. But of course, you can call it whatever you like. I can call a pig a horse, and even put a saddle on him, but he's still wallowing in the mire isn't he? Attitudes indeed change, but God is immutable, and christian morality is immutable. What was immoral ten years ago (to the true Christian) is immoral today. Those who have the mind of Christ do not change morality along with the times of post modern society, nor with time change laws governing it to accommodate new world philosophies creeping into the church. Even when the beast sticks its ugly head in the door, the laws of God and the church remain constant to be the light of the world (Matthew 5:14). ..until that time when God allow the light to be dimmed.

Daniel 7:25

That there will be evil change in the world is inevitable. That we, as Christians, should remain silent when this darkness comes, is a time when all faithful should be in mourning. We are set of God as "Watchmen," not spectators. We are evangelists, not idle bystanders. As an Australian you may look at things differently (as you say), but as Christians all across the world we must look at things immutably. i.e., that's why this country had laws banning Homosexual activity in the first place. In those days we "were" a simi-moral country, and now we are slowly sliding down that slippery slope, greased by professing Christians everywhere who are playing political chairs or just sitting on the sidelines telling us (in essence) to just go with the flow. That may be how we will get the accolades from the modern church, but not from God.

You say it has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical. We say it has everything to do with being Biblical or unbiblical. Everything has to do with this declension.  For the Bible, which is the gospel, is the rule of faith in all our lives and the light of the world. For you to chalk your inconsistency up to simply having a "different cultural climate," is naive at best.

..unless you are willing to be just as animated in also allowing our laws against other immorality (such as as child pornography) be overturned as well. Then, and only then, will you be speaking consistently with regard to overturning laws banning immoral activities such as sodomy. My guess is that with regard to decriminalizing immoral sexual activity with children, you wouldn't be saying (and I quote):

 "There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it."

That would be my guess. Why? Because you recognize this sin as an abomination, an immoral activity of which the law against it is just. Cultural climate hasn't brought you far enough to minimize that law. ..yet.

No matter how long I live, there is one truth that always seems to hold consistent. And that is the truth that, "Inconsistency is the hallmark of error." Your inconsistency proves your humanistic philosophy, Biblically untenable, and logically flawed.


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>>>
Now, if I may put it bluntly, Deuce, you have been acting with prejudice, along with a couple of others here. 
<<<

Prejudice is a very subjective word. What do you mean by prejudice? That we Christians believe that homosexual activity is unnatural, vile affections and a abomination unto God, and that keeping it unlawful in America is a good and righteous thing? Because that's what we've said. Moreover, it is really the testimony of the Living God, not of ourselves. If that's what you mean, then yes, every single faithful Christian on earth is prejudice. But my educated guess is that you're attempting the type cast. The typical "Politically Correct" end-around where when all else fails. Accuse the Christian of being either hateful, Prejudice, Homophobic, uncompassionate, lacking love, promoting violence, or some other unrighteous label to avoid the truths in this issue. When man has his mind made up, it is self-evident that he doesn't need a real reason for condemnation (Matthew 27:23) he "will" have his way and believe what is right in his own eyes.


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>>>
I was posting my comments here as a sort of test, and some people did not pass.
<<<

The only test we're concerned with is that when we are tempted (tried, proved or tested) with post modernistic thought in our time of the trial of faith in this world, we will be kept by the power of God. That's the only test we're concerned with. And all pride aside, neither you nor I will have any part in grading those tests. Thank God!

1st Peter 1:5-7

The putting of the faith of the true Christian to the test will only reveal what is its real nature is. That we will persevere in the faithfulness of Christ that we not fall to vain philosophies.


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>>>
Some of you have not been able to handle a guy like me coming in who shares your theological beliefs, but has a different way of looking at things.
<<<

To "handle you" is not my mission. To get the witness of the truth out over the steady stream of humanistic reasonings in the church, is. I can only speak for myself when I say you do not share my theological views. We may hold some of the same beliefs, but so does Roman Catholics hold some views that I do. That doesn't mean that I would then make the general statement that they share my theological views. Theologically, you and I are miles apart on most issues, even though we may both hold to some of the same doctrines like grace. For my theology starts with "give no quarter to sin and abominations, and be a watchman with a strong trumpet."

You are right in what you say about you having a different way of looking at things. On the other hand, I like to look at things straight on, with the same clarity all the time. That is to say, consistently, comparing scripture with scripture, seeing things the way they "really" are. Not looking at things the way they might appear to be "in light" of post modern culture and new age philosophies.


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>>>
Don't worry too much, though.  I'm not offended.  Actually, it's been rather fun.  "As iron sharpens iron, etc."
<<<

Iron sharpens iron, but wood dulls iron. If our assumptions are flawed, our conclusions will be flawed. If our premise is flawed, then our whole thinking based upon that starting premise will be flawed.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on August 01, 2003, 03:04:48 AM
Deuce, I find some of your comments of grave concern. Now, if I may put it bluntly, Deuce, you have been acting with prejudice, along with a couple of others here.

With all due respect, you don't know a thing about me except that I am against a few judges in our country who took it upon themselves to take away longstanding laws which ban homosexuality. You accuse me of assuming, when you yourself assume way too much about me.

For the record, I am not prejudice against homosexuals, as my own nephew who is a homosexual will happily tell you flat out. I dearly love him and I treat him as I do any other human being. So before you start making unfounded charges against me, try and get yourself educated on the facts first. It's clear that you don't know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Deuce Johnson on August 01, 2003, 03:10:31 AM
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And I find some of your retorts of grave concern. I fear that your statements are so corrupted by the "way of the world," and so consistently convoluted with worldly social pollution, that one can only interpret them as the dichotomy in the intellectual (yet primordial) soup of cultural modernism.

Run that by me again ;)

 It's amazing, I've been told banning gay marriages might cause gay marriages, I've been called prejudice, I've been castigated for my lack of spelling, told I need to take the mote out of my own eye, and reminded that the abomination of homosexuality is all relative like stores cheating. All in one week. Just because I dared speak up about the judges decision to decriminalize homosexual activity.

It's funny, because this week even the Pope seems to have had enough and has spoken out against this cancer which is in our world. The vatican (who we know has been lenient on homosexuality), announced a world wide campaign against legalizing gay marriages. So even roman catholics understand there is something gone ary, but Protestants are running around arguing about nothing and making excuses.

And for the Australian who thinks America wants this decriminalized and we're "forcing" Christian values on them, if he knew the facts he would have known that 57% of americans are against this ruling. A clear majority in any vote. So again he is misinformed about us forcing anything on people. Besides, it's our democratic right to speak out against sin. Our government allows this, and so does God. So what's his beef! Or as you say, what's his point.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Doug Johnson on August 01, 2003, 09:03:22 AM
It doesn't surprise me Deuce. The One Roman Catholic Church has always been at the forefront of doing the right thing. Who is at the forefront of being against Abortions? The One Holy Roman Catholic Church. Who is at the forefront of feeding the poor? The One Holy Roman Catholic Church. Same thing with missions.

So it should surprise no one that the One Holy Roman Cathoklic Church is at the forefront of helping christians understand we cannot allow these new ideas about homosexuals to take root and become law.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Chicago Bear on August 02, 2003, 08:03:30 PM

Quote
>>>
I was posting my comments here as a sort of test, and some people did not pass.
<<<

The only test we're concerned with is that when we are tempted (tried or tested) with post modernistic thought in our trial of faith in this world, we will be kept by the power of God. That's the only test we're concerned with. And all pride aside, you have no part in grading those tests. Thank God!

Thank you Tony Warren. I couldn't agree more. I was reading about this as all these strories broke in the news media and I was thinking of you. Read this article and see if it isn't almost identical to what you are saying. I'll gladly be called a hate monger if that means I'm standing by the gospel truth. I'm sure glad that some people still have some sense left.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040525153848/http://adnetsolfp2.adnetsol.com:80/ssl_claremont/feder2.cfm

The media is part of the problem in my view.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Drew on August 03, 2003, 08:23:01 AM
I don't agree that people who speak out against the laws banning homosexuality are hate mongers. But do we have to speak out against these people and cause them pain and make them feel like outcasts? I don't agree with the australian, and I agree with those of you who are against the new laws  because that is only common sense morality, but let's not preach against homosexuality. Who cares if gays marry. Shouldn't the church be about love and compassion for these people? I think so.

 2 John 1:5
 "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another."


Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Tony Warren on August 03, 2003, 04:20:13 PM
>>>
I don't agree that people who speak out against the laws allowing homosexuality are hate mongers.
<<<

That's a good start, but it doesn't go far enough. Because the "truth" is, we who speak out against the decriminalization of homosexual activity are Christians, the only ones who truly 'care' about homosexuals. Ours is a Christ-like warning that they might ber saved, not condemned.


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>>>
But do we have to speak out against these people and cause them pain and make them feel like outcasts?
<<<

We're not speaking out against people, we're speaking out against sin. Which should be the testimony of every true Christian. Better that we speak out against "homosexuality" and cause them pain that they feel like "outcasts" now, rather than we remain silent and not warn, and they are "castout" and have pain and suffering eternal. Unfortunately, most of the church today would rather be spectators than watchmen unto their good. ...to their own peril.

Ezekiel 33:7-9

What shall we say then? Let's be deceitful and not warn those who rebell against God's laws because it's not our business? Or we should stay out of the business of the world and not worry about laws that we, as representative citizens, are responsible for? God Forbid! But this is the slothful and irresponsible attitude of today's post modern Christian. They would rather lie to themselves because they don't want to hear anger that make ripples in their lives. This attitude is nothing new in God's house.

Isaiah 30:9-10

Smooth things, or in other words, don't tell us to do things that will aggravate us, just let'sgo along to get along.


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>>>
I don't agree with the australian, and I agree with those of you who are against the new laws because that is only common sense morality,
<<<

We agree that it is just common sense (which it is), but yet you think warning against the abomination of Homosexuality is somehow wrong because it makes homosexuals feel like outcasts? Isn't that a bit inconsistent? Would you not say that preaching against the sin of adultery is a good thing? Wouldn't you say preaching against the sin of stealing is a good thing? Are you then making thieves feel like outcasts, or adulterers? Inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Proverbs 11:1

Proverbs 16:11

That's like someone claiming abortion is not murder, but then wanting to charge the murderer of a pregnant woman with two counts of murder. inconsistency is the hallmark of error. Nobility is in making just or honest judgments which are consistent and true. As in rightly (justly) dividing (cutting or portioning) the word of truth. When we have inconsistency, we have error. It is a Christian and moral obligation to warn against the acceptance of Homosexuality. God's judgments await, not ours. God's punishments, not ours. That God calls it an abomination, and a unnatural and vile affection is proof enough of the seriousness of our duty. This is a right, the Christian using a just weight and balance.


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>>>
but let's not preach against homosexuality. Who cares if gays marry.
<<<

That's like saying let's not preach against false doctrines, because it might hurt someon's feelings. Or let's not preach against adultery. Or let's not preach against Divorce. Or let's not preach against Murder. Why would a "true" Christian say these things? It makes no sense. As I said, it's just as inconsistent as saying don't preach against laws allowing homosexuality, but you can preach against laws permitting child pornography. They are both equally immoral in God's eyes. What man cannot seem to grasp is that, there is no difference! It's both the same warnings against the sexual immorality of the wicked. A law against molesting a child is the same as a law against sodomy. They're laws against immorality.

Who cares if gays marry? You, as a true Christian, should care. For you should desire for them the same as you desire for yourself. Regeneration and salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ unto new life. This is the true meaning in the Christian understanding of gape "LOVE." Christian charity or benevolence toward others.

James 2:8

When you "Love" your neighbor as you love yourself, "YOU CARE!" Because you know the wrath of God abides upon them.

Isn't it ironic that the professed Christians who claim to have love and compassion for homosexuals, are the very ones saying that we should just leave them alone, and not worry about them, and not care that they should be men marrying men, or women marrying women. While those who truly do care (knowing their end), are called hate mongers, homophobists and uncompassionate.


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>>>
Shouldn't the church be about love and compassion for these people? I think so.
<<<

I think so too! But I also think that a great many of you have a different definition than we do of what is love. How do we know what love is?

1st John 5:2-3

It seems many confuse humanistic feelings, worldly reasoning, carnal accommodation, convenience, and misguided sympathy, for love and Godly compassion. Compassion is sacrificing of yourself, willing to suffer rebuke, persecution, tribulation and reviling to "help" others. And love is remaining faithful to the commandments of God and desiring for others what you desire for yourself. Desiring an awakening and salvation, not good vibrations or that people have self esteem (pride) in this world. One means everything in this world, the other means everything in the world to come. This is what true compassion. This is the fast which the Lord has chosen, "to deal thy bread to the poor," to sell all you have that others may be clothed thereby. The Spiritual fast in Christ Jesus.

Luke 18:22-23

That's the church today. Very sorrowful because they love the things of this world. They don't want to give up anything that keeps them comfortable. They want to be Politically Correct so no one will say bad things about them. They want the "smooth way" where they can remain at ease, comfy, complacent and hang onto their carnal lifestyles, while at the same professing Christ is LORD of their lives. But it doesn't work that way. He who will not take up their cross and follow Christ, is not worthy of Christ. Because they don't love Christ as LORD.

Matthew 24:12

Christian love growing cold is not Christians saying it is wrong to have laws forbidding Homosexuals to marry, it is professed Christians saying, who cares if homosexuals marry! It is the love of God growing cold, not the love of homosexuals. Iniquity abounding is not Christians saying that Homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven, it is professed christians saying that we should not testify of such statements in the Bible, because it makes them feel like outcasts.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Kyle on August 04, 2003, 10:16:14 AM
But how can the Church of England even talk about having a practicing homosexual leader of the Church? Has the Church gone completely insane or is it just me? They should have thrown him out immediately, shouldn't they?

https://web.archive.org/web/20050927163949/http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20030611.shtml

Australia, Canada, England, the United States, is this a trend or what? The Episcopal Church should be ashamed of itself. And so should anyone who doesn't call this an abomination.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on August 05, 2003, 01:12:23 AM
OK, I've had a few days to catch my breath and let my pulse slow down.   ;)

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Elucidate. What is your point?

Thank you!  Boy, I thought you'd never ask!!  ;)

I believe that the Bible is the inerrant and fully authoritative Word of God
I believe that God's law is holy, and binding on all people, as well as families, societies, organisations, churches and governments.
I believe that the moral law is still in force, along with the general principles behind the Old Testament civil laws.
I believe that homosexuality is an abomination and is repulsive to God.
I believe that as Christians we are called to be salt and light, and therefore should do everything within our power to prevent from being passed laws that allow homosexuality.

 ;D

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What about me finding some of your retorts of grave concern. I fear that your statements are so corrupted by the "way of the world," and so consistently convoluted with worldly social pollution, that one can only interpret them as the dichotomy in the intellectual (yet primordial) soup of cultural modernism.

Well, naturally I don't agree, but I'm happy to learn.   :)

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You can discern the weather by looking at the sky, but how is it that you cannot discern the righteousness of Christians being against decriminalizing homosexuality?

Of course, that's not the thing to which I was objecting.  I didn't like people jumping to conclusions about my beliefs, assumptions, character, etc.

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Post modern Christianity is a humanistic, fragmented, politically correct, compromising, frivolous, law-changing, corrupted, philosophical, and throw away society.

You're right, of course, but then - I'm not a post-modern.

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As an Australian you may look at things differently (as you say), but as Christians we look at things immutably.

Presumably it is possible to be both a Christian and an Australian...  ;)


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You say it has nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical. We say it has everything to do with being Biblical or unbiblical. Everything has to do with this declension.  For the Bible, which is the gospel, is the rule of faith in all our lives and the light of the world. For you to chalk your inconsistency up to simply having a "different cultural climate," is naive at best.

It certainly wasn't your beliefs on homosexuality that have nothing to do with being biblical or unbiblical!!  It was the mode of expressing those beliefs, and the associated feelings, attitudes, and communication practices.  These are heavily influenced by our culture.

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..unless you are willing to be just as animated in also allowing our laws against other immorality (such as as child pornography) be overturned as well. Then, and only then, will you be speaking consistently with regard to overturning laws banning immoral activities such as sodomy. My guess is that with regard to decriminalizing immoral sexual activity with children, you wouldn't be saying (and I quote):

 "There are some sins that are wrong, but for various reasons it is not the duty of the state to enforce it."

No, but I would with pride, which was my initial example.  ;)

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Your inconsistency proves your humanistic philosophy Biblically untenable, and logically flawed.

Well, inconsistency is always difficult to point out at the best of times.  Go for it!!

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I can only speak for myself when I say you do not share my theological views.

Yeah, OK.  I'm happy to admit that you're right on this one.  I stand corrected.

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Theologically, you and I are miles apart, even though we may both hold to some of the same doctrines.

Yes, sad as that may be, I think you're right.  Who was it who said that England and America are two countries separated by a common language??  It might be the same sort of thing happening here...

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From Deuce:
With all due respect, you don't know a thing about me except that I am against a few judges in our country who took it upon themselves to take away longstanding laws which ban homosexuality. You accuse me of assuming, when you yourself assume way too much about me.

Yeah, fair enough.  Sorry Deuce.  At least now you know how I feel like. :(

Of course, prejudice is very difficult to avoid, especially on a web forum.  You see words on a screen, and immediately start making assumptions about the author...

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From Deuce:
It's amazing, I've been told ... I need to take the mote out of my own eye, and reminded that the abomination of homosexuality is all relative like stores cheating.

Well, not by me!!  I'm truly sorry if you thought that's what I was saying.  And yeah, sorry about the spelling thing.  It does annoy me though - try to check your speeling if yuo kan.  ;)

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That's like saying Let's not preach against Adultery. Or let's not preach against Divorce. Or let's not preach against Murder.

But all sins are not equal! ...or are they?

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Australia, Canada, England, the United States, is this a trend or what? The Episcopal Church should be ashamed of itself. And so should anyone who doesn't call this an abomination.

Of course, the Australian Anglicans are the good guys in all this...  :)

OK, that's my shpiel.  Keep on disagreeing...

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Bruce on August 05, 2003, 08:11:57 AM
Why is this a problem? Why do we magnify homosexuality? Surely it is not the unforgiveable sin. We must respect all people, and that is not mutally exclusive of disrespecting thier actions or decions.

Have you been reading these posts? Why do we magnify child pornography? Because it's an abomination to God which should be stamped out, that's why. Why would you even write a message protesting against that?
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Bruce on August 05, 2003, 08:34:35 AM
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That's like saying Let's not preach against Adultery. Or let's not preach against Divorce. Or let's not preach against Murder.
Quote

But all sins are not equal! ...or are they?


JD Ampersand,
  Who said all sins were equal? We were talking about the decriminalization of homosexuality, and you are talking about everything but. Why is that? Are you argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative? Otherwise, why are you arguing in a thread discussing the decriminalization of homosexuality, while you say you're not arguing the decriminalization of homosexuality? It makes no sense except that you just want stir up something.

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: jd@ on August 05, 2003, 10:14:30 PM
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Who said all sins were equal?

Nobody.  But if we compare homosexuality to divorce, etc. we are assuming equality in at least some sense.  That argument came up, but in order to examine the validity of the argument, we have have to discuss the equality or inequality of some sins.  But if you'd prefer me not to talk about it I'll just shut up.

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Are you argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative?

Well, I'm sorry it appears that way.  I'll try to be more careful in future...

Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Doug Johnson on October 15, 2003, 09:22:41 AM
Listen to me. We can all beat around the bush about the hundreds of different Protestant sects preaching different things about Homosexual marriage, but one Church stands with one voice against it. The Roman catholic Church.

The move toward Homosexual marriages is just another part of the schisms which the Protestant Church started long ago. The One true holy Roman Catholic Church has been at the forefront of doing the right thing. I asked before, who is at the forefront of fighting against abortions but no one wanted to speak the truth? Is it the protestants? No, it is the Roman Catholics. Who is at the forefront of feeding the poor? Is it the Protestant Church? No, it's the one true holy Roman Catholic Church. And the same with missions and starting new Churches in South America, Africa, Russia.

So as I said, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the one holy Roman Cathoklic Church is at the forefront of helping christians understand that we cannot allow these Protestant Church christians allowing homosexual marriages to spread and become law. Homosexual marriage is a sin against the Church and God. Only one Church speaks with one voice against it. While you have Protestants in all denominations saying it's not really a bad thing.


Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Melanie on December 06, 2017, 09:57:49 AM
Is Homosexual marriage Next?  Wow. How far we have come from 2003 where that statement is now fact, they can even be Pastors, and we're wondering what else is next.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Melanie on December 06, 2017, 10:10:44 AM
So your saying we shouldn't respect any sinner?

I think it's been made clear we cannot respect false prophets, thieves, murders, rapists, adulterers or homosexuals. No, we cannot. God doesn't want anyone to respect that, no matter how you attempt to twist the scenario.

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Is King David not worthy of our respect because he was a lustful perve? (and a murder to boot)

Was, not remained one. Tony already explained that. I'll refresh the memory.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." I Corinthians 6:9-11

See where God says, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed." In other words, they were, but not anymore. Likewise, if you are a Prostitute still, why would I have respect for you when God condemns you? If you are a former prostitute, of course I will respect you. Likewise former thieves or homosexuals. But there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. You are either one or the other.


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Why do homosexuals deserve a special kind of 'disrespect'

They don't. They deserve the same disrespect God shows in that passage I quoted saying neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals), Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners. God says of all of them, they shall not inherit the kingdom of God. You can call that a special kind of disrespect or you can call it the truth. I call it the word of truth.
Title: Re: Is Homosexual Marriage Next
Post by: Tim Norton on December 10, 2017, 06:33:53 AM
So your saying we shouldn't respect any sinner?

I think it's been made clear we cannot respect false prophets, thieves, murders, rapists, adulterers or homosexuals. No, we cannot. God doesn't want anyone to respect that, no matter how you attempt to twist the scenario.

I completely agree. This is about sin, not disrespecting anyone. To use his argument, we would have to respect terrorists, respect abortionists and respect mass murderers. People always attempt to broaden the argument when they have no biblical justification for their beliefs. This isn't about individuals, it's about God's laws and if we are going to be obedient to them or fall prey to the world's way of thinking? I for one choose God's word.