The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: dsouzaanthony on February 26, 2005, 03:23:22 AM

Title: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on February 26, 2005, 03:23:22 AM
Hello Everyone,

Recently I visited website "www.wordofchrist.net and  read there a topic " Doctrines of the Beginning ", in which the author proves from the Bible that Adam could not have been created in the image of God.  The reason being that had he lost the  image of God (or marred) because of sin, then what guarantee is there for a believer, regenerated in the image of Christ, that he will not lose his salvation in the future.

After reading this topic and comparing scripture with scripture, I can't but come to the same conclusion as the author himself.  Nevertheless, I want to invite your comments, but only after your complete assessment of this topic.

God Bless

Dsouzaanthony
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sportsnut on February 26, 2005, 06:07:38 AM
Hello Everyone,

Recently I visited website "www.wordofchrist.net and  read there a topic " Doctrines of the Beginning ", in which the author proves from the Bible that Adam could not have been created in the image of God.  The reason being that had he lost the  image of God (or marred) because of sin, then what guarantee is there for a believer, regenerated in the image of Christ, that he will not lose his salvation in the future.

God Bless

Dsouzaanthony


That's a laugh. He says no, but God says man was created in the image of God.

 Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

So let's let the scriptures speak for themselves, rather than listen to man's private interpretations. Was man created in the image of God?

 Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

So we have our witness of scripture. Can man make this witness null and void?

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on February 28, 2005, 10:31:37 AM
Quote
That's a laugh. He says no, but God says man was created in the image of God.

 Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

So let's let the scriptures speak for themselves, rather than listen to man's private interpretations. Was man created in the image of God?

 Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

So we have our witness of scripture. Can man make this witness null and void?



I think you don't understand.  This earth was created without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep (Gen 1:2)

Then God commanded the Light to shine forth and that Light was separated from darkness.  If we compare scripture with scripture, God wants us to understand that He is refering to His salvation program.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God relates that Light to be the gospel of His Son Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is the Light of the world.  So when God talks about creation of man after His image and likeness, He had salvation of His elect in mind (Gen 1:26-27).

Adam needed the gospel of salvation from the moment he was created, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. 

Read 1 Cor 15:42-50 very carefully.  First Adam was earthy and the  second Man is from heaven.  As we have borne the image of the earthy, so we will (elect remanant of mankind)
bear the image of the heavenly.  The first man was of the dust.

That's why we have creation account of Adam in Genesis Chapter 2 :7.

We see that Jesus Christ alone was the image of God, That's why He is the Son of God and the Bible says that He is pre-eminent.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

It is only in salvation that man is created in the image of Christ who is the image of God.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed (made new) in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

When scriptures refer to man as the image of God, they could only receive it from the time of their salvation and not before.  Man is accountable to God for his sins not because they are all created in His image but rather accountability starts at the cross:

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

That's why the Lamb of God was slain principally from the foundation of the world and not presumably from Adam's fall.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I again suggest that you read that article by visiting "www.wordofchrist.net"

God Bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: WrldTvlr on February 28, 2005, 07:39:34 PM
Quote
I again suggest that you read that article by visiting "www.wordofchrist.net[/size]"

Why would I, or any other Christian for that matter, want to waste our time (AGAIN) reading another paper by a "mere" man trying to discredit the Bible, and then quoting passage after passage in refutation, to no avail?

Speaking only for myself, I don't have the time, inclination, or patience for another of these, supposidly "educated ones who have additional revelation" as to what the Word of God says and means.  Quite frankly I have had my fill of these people.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 02, 2005, 12:57:19 PM
Dear all,
Its our duty to study the word of God comparing scripture with scripture.I can agree with anthony after comparing scripture with scripture and I dont think anythings wrong with the study.
Quote:1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption..
Now can anyone please tell me was Adam not having an earthly body which was sowed natural having flesh and blood then How can he inherit the kingdom of God in his earthy body?
Quote:
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
 1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 02, 2005, 11:15:56 PM
Stacia,

You are the only one who made a positive statement.

It's not that I want to prove I am right.  I could be wrong.  The reason I put this topic in this thread is to learn from people by scrutiny of scripture.  But I was disappointed with Wrld Tvlr for he has not quoted any scripture to negate this teaching.

When did God plan to create man in His image?  Consider following scripture:

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


If New Testament is the interpretation of the Old Testament, then why there are no statements as such Pre-fall/Post-fall of Adam.  In fact, to my knowledge (I stand to be corrected by scripture), Bible doesn't talk about a apparant demarcation line between pre-fall and post-fall of Adam. 

1 Cor 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Although the above scripture talks about the resurrection of the elect remnant, it has great elemant of truth.  It teaches us that Adam was created in the image of earthy and not in the image of God as Romans 8 clearly teaches that God predestinated His elect to bear His image only at salvation.

Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

The above verse cannot be talking about men in general but in the visible church. So also 1Cor 11:7.

Bible states that Jesus Christ is the image of God.  God always had Christ in mind when He created this world.  Men were to bear the image of Christ who is the image of God but only at the time of their salvation as God predestined them.  Threfore Gen 1: 26 & 27 cannot be speaking of Adam when he was created from the dust of the ground as in Gen 2:7.

I appreciate your comments.

God Bless

Dsouzaanthony

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Baerchild on March 03, 2005, 12:43:14 AM

Bible states that Jesus Christ is the image of God.  God always had Christ in mind when He created this world.  Men were to bear the image of Christ who is the image of God but only at the time of their salvation as God predestined them.  Threfore Gen 1: 26 & 27 cannot be speaking of Adam when he was created from the dust of the ground as in Gen 2:7.

dsouzaanthony,

Perhaps you forgot that Adam was born without sin and he had a free will. But let us understand your position:  Are you saying that Adam was not created in the image of God?

Jim
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 04, 2005, 10:06:57 AM
Baerchild,

Nice to have your response.

I agree with you that Adam sinned by his own will, for God is no author of sin.

But the question I want to ask you is do men have a free-will to choose salvation?  I guess, your answer would be ‘NO’.  Scripture makes very clear that NO ONE can be saved apart from the grace of God.  When was this grace ordained? Is it after the (apparent) fall of Adam or even before the world began?

2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Did Adam have the free-will to chose salvation in the Garden of Eden then or was it a testing program (Gen 2: 17) given to Adam to show that He was in need of Christ from the outset?  Let scripture define that:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Though, above scripture talks about the Law of Moses, (I think) the principle is set here that any Law or Command of God in the Bible is given to bring us to Christ for no man can obey or keep God’s command perfectly apart from Christ.  There is no scripture (to my knowledge) which says that Adam obeyed God perfectly before he transgressed.  Rather obedience was prepared for Christ alone.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Was it possible for Adam to be perfect apart from Christ?  Ask yourself.

I don’t believe that Adam was created in the image of God, for scriptures reveal otherwise.  However, Adam was re-created (born-again) in the image of God only at the point of his salvation.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ro 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Jesus Christ is the Image of God and firstborn among many brethren (Christ is preeminent).  Who are the brethren in the above scripture?  The elect remnant of mankind.  When are they conformed to the image of the Son of God?  ONLY AT THE TIME OF THEIR SALVATION AS PREDESTINATED BY GOD. Adam could not have been the firstborn.

If Adam was created in God’s image, then he lost his image because of his transgression, and then his image is restored in Christ.   I think this is not what the scripture teaches. Another logic is that if Adam was created in God’s image and lost it when he sinned, what guarantee is that the elect will not lose his salvation after being re-created (my word) in the image of God?  Scripture does not make that a possibility.  Bible teaches us that Adam was created natural:

1Co 15:44 It is SOWN a natural body; it is RAISED a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.           1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Co 42-49 teaches that Christ is Pre-eminent. Who has SOWN a natural body? God of course!  It is sown natural so that it will be raised spiritual. 
 
I think I have made my position clearly. Nonetheless, I stand corrected by the scripture. 

God Bless

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on March 04, 2005, 10:44:28 AM
Very interesting study, Dsouzaanthony.  I have always had a problem with believing that man apart from Christ is in the image of God because of the verses you listed, so I just thought that maybe man lost God's image in the fall, but wasnt quite sure.  This verse is one that lead me to believe maybe Adam lost God's image also:

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.  Genesis 5:3

But I think what you are saying has some merit and I find it very interesting.  Perhaps Adam WAS never in the image of God, until he was regenerated.

What do you think this verse means?

Genesis 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 

Blessings,
Carol

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sue Landow on March 04, 2005, 11:17:39 AM
Quote
Quote
dsouzaanthony,

Perhaps you forgot that Adam was born without sin and he had a free will. But let us understand your position:  Are you saying that Adam was not created in the image of God?

Jim


Nice to have your response.

I don’t believe that Adam was created in the image of God, for scriptures reveal otherwise.  However, Adam was re-created (born-again) in the image of God only at the point of his salvation.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ro 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Jesus Christ is the Image of God and firstborn among many brethren (Christ is preeminent).  Who are the brethren in the above scripture?  The elect remnant of mankind.  When are they conformed to the image of the Son of God?  ONLY AT THE TIME OF THEIR SALVATION AS PREDESTINATED BY GOD. Adam could not have been the firstborn.

If Adam was created in God’s image, then he lost his image because of his transgression, and then his image is restored in Christ.   I think this is not what the scripture teaches. Another logic is that if Adam was created in God’s image and lost it when he sinned, what guarantee is that the elect will not lose his salvation after being re-created (my word) in the image of God?  Scripture does not make that a possibility.  Bible teaches us that Adam was created natural:

1Co 15:44 It is SOWN a natural body; it is RAISED a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.           1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Co 42-49 teaches that Christ is Pre-eminent. Who has SOWN a natural body? God of course!  It is sown natural so that it will be raised spiritual. 
 
I think I have made my position clearly. Nonetheless, I stand corrected by the scripture. 

God Bless

DSOUZAANTHONY



You have basically made God into a liar in his saying quite plainly that man was created in the image of God. And he said it several times. You on the other hand deny God's word, saying you don't believe him.

 Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

God is talking about man, not creation of the universe. And he says in his image created he man. How you can twist that plain language around just because someone wrote an article declaring otherwise, I cannot understand. There is a point where man goes too far in trying to spiritualize everything away. And you've crossed over it with this theory I do believe. You ask for scripture, it has been presented, it disagrees with your theory, but then you say no, read this man's article as if it trumps scripture. I don't understand that type thinking.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 04, 2005, 11:50:34 AM
Carol,

Since you have asked me, here are my thoughts:

Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

We see in the above scripture that although Adam has sinned, the image of God is not tainted.  In other words, Adam had never been created in the image of God.  Had he been created originally in the image of God, then why does Seth bear Adam's image in Gen 5:3

Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

So God's salvation programme is intact despite Adam's sin.  That's what I think God means in Gen 9:6 quoted above.

It all compares well with the New Testament as I have presented in my earlier post.

There is one more scripture in Gen 5:1

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Generation of Adam is already tainted with sin.  So who could God be talking about His creation in the image of God?  His elect of course!  God continues His salvation process.

In Gen 9:6, God puts the fear of death in man for murder (capital punishment as our present state laws), so that no one could stop Him from bringing forth the salvation of the elect. This is the method God uses to restrain sin in man for His salvation purpose.

However, I would ask everyone to compare scripture with scripture and let God guide us.

I'm not aware that I have deliberately twisted any scripture to suit my thinking.  This is what I think is taught in scripture, especially 1 Cor 15: 42-50 is quite clear.   I'm open for correction as I'm still a learner.

God Bless,

DSOUZAANTHONY

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Baerchild on March 04, 2005, 09:33:59 PM

I don’t believe that Adam was created in the image of God, for scriptures reveal otherwise.  However, Adam was re-created (born-again) in the image of God only at the point of his salvation.

dsouzaanthony,

Where do you come up with this stuff? Can you backup either of those opinions with Scripture?

Let me add to your confusion:  The Free Will which Adam had, was not The Will of God...and if it is not of God...?

Jim
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 05, 2005, 02:09:27 AM
Baerchild,

I have backed-up my thoughts by several scriptures. If Adam was created in the image of God then the thought is not harmonious with 1Cor 15:46:

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Image of God is spiritual. Adam's body of flesh and blood could not inherit the Kingdom of God.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly

1 Cor 15: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

It's only at salvation that man is regenerated to bear the image of God.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I think I'm not confused, but you have failed to understand my earlier posts.

God Bless



Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 05, 2005, 03:28:11 AM
Dsouzaanthony.

It seems to me that this article and your study of Scripture thus far, have taken some truths and attempted to use them to refute other truths.  Instead, I think we need to try and find harmony with the clear, unequivocal statement that God created man in His image.

I have some thoughts regarding this.  We could ask ourselves... in what way does man differ from all others creatures that God made?  The answer is that man was created with a soul or spirit essense that is eternal in nature.  That's why, unlike other creatures, man will be either eternally damned to hell, or live eternally with Christ in the new heaven and new earth.  It is also why men know, deep inside their souls (albeit some try to hide the fact), that there is a Creator, whose wonderous works are clearly seen in all of nature.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:...

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So, we could say that all mankind since Adam is characterized with an eternal spiritual/soul essense, and a fleshly nature.  I believe the difference between Adam before the fall is that his spiritual nature dominated his flesh.  But then, with the fall, he succombed to his flesh.  

Rom 1:19 -23
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.  

God could very well be describing Adam and the reason for his fall here.  Yet,  as noted in the 1Co 15:45 passage that you quoted, it is ONLY by the QUICKENING of our spirit[/b] by God's Spirit, that any man (Adam onward) becomes saved.  

1Co 15:45
45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Moreover, we live in hope that, on the last day, our bodies will also be changed into 'incorruptible' bodies that reflect a new world unlike this earth which will be destroyed.

This just scratches the surface, and may or may not be the answer.  But it reflects my attempt to reconcile -- to find harmony between seemingly contradictory passages of Scripture.   This is the only way we will come to truth; we cannot negate any passage of Scripture in favor of another.

I hope this helps some.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Pilgrim on March 05, 2005, 03:51:01 AM
I have backed-up my thoughts by several scriptures. If Adam was created in the image of God then the thought is not harmonious with 1Cor 15:46:

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


I agree with what sue and judy have stated here. You are taking one scripture and attempting to contradict another scripture with it. This is not the way to come to sound conclusions about doctrine. If God says man was created in the image of God, then man was created in the image of God. When you say No he wasn't, you are contradicting God. It's unfortunate that you have bought into this man's theory, but you have to look at the whole context.

 Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God is talking about man, and he created him in his own image. Man sinned and fell and was separted from God. That is why he was thrown out of the garden of eden. He was no longer in the image of God and could not remain with God who dwelled there.

As far as the kingdom of heaven and flesh, that is a whole different issue. In the image of God doesn't mean that man was spiritual to be able to enter the Kingdom. It means that man was perfect, as God is. He had no sin.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on March 05, 2005, 11:32:51 AM
Man sinned and fell and was separted from God. That is why he was thrown out of the garden of eden. He was no longer in the image of God and could not remain with God who dwelled there.

So do you believe that man lost God's image in the fall?  And the elect will be transformed 'back' into Christ's image?  The bible never actually says this (does it?), but are we to assume it based on these other scriptures? 

The bible is a very complicated book and I believe we only understand it thru revelation of God.  A verse may seem to be very clearly saying one thing, but it must be considered in light of other scriptures, so to just say 'this verse says this, so you have made God into a liar by saying otherwise!' is not really right, I don't think.  Just look at all the 'world' and 'all' verses in scripture.  --But we have to compare scripture with scripture and not take verses out of context.

I'm not really sure about the image of God issue.  I would like to know dogmatically.  Guess I will continue to study and pray for guidance.  Any help and further discussion here is helpful!

Carol
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kenneth White on March 05, 2005, 02:32:20 PM
Man sinned and fell and was separted from God. That is why he was thrown out of the garden of eden. He was no longer in the image of God and could not remain with God who dwelled there.

So do you believe that man lost God's image in the fall?  And the elect will be transformed 'back' into Christ's image?  The bible never actually says this (does it?), but are we to assume it based on these other scriptures? 

Carol

It's no assumption that the bible says man was created in the image of God, that's a cold hard fact of scripture. Pilgrim had the right idea. We cannot contradict something God says without some real hard biblical facts to back it up. And I haven't read nor seen any. The article makes a very "weak" case. And it's not an assumption that we are predestinated and conformed to the image of God. It's plainly written.


Quote
The bible is a very complicated book and I believe we only understand it thru revelation of God.  A verse may seem to be very clearly saying one thing, but it must be considered in light of other scriptures, so to just say 'this verse says this, so you have made God into a liar by saying otherwise!' is not really right, I don't think.

You could start saying that about any doctrine, couldn't you? What if I said the Bible only seems to preach predestination, but looked at in the light of Revelation 22 it says something else? I don't believe that, we have to have a real solid reason for denying that man was made in the image of God, when God says unequivocally that man was made in the image of God. I just don't see how we can deny this so cavalierly based upon the scant theories put forth thus far.

That's like Fred saying that when God spoke of righteous men, He meant that these men were not really sinners. I think that's handling the scriptures carelessly. I believe that Man was made in the image of God means exactly that. Man was created in the image of God. He lost that image in the fall of Adam. And we have the second Adam, Jesus Christ who restores us to that image. The image is sinless perfection. You have to remember, Adam was created a perfect being. But when he fell he lost that perfection. That's not assumption, it's what is in scripture. And in Christ, the last Adam, we are regenerated in that image of perfection. I don't think this is as complicated as you imply.

 Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

 Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

When Christ purged us of our sins, he restored us to the image of God that Adam was created in. He restored us to the perfection before God that Adam had in the garden before the fall. I simply don't see all the assumption that you do in this.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Baerchild on March 05, 2005, 03:51:05 PM


I don’t believe that Adam was created in the image of God, for scriptures reveal otherwise.  However, Adam was re-created (born-again) in the image of God only at the point of his salvation.



dsouzaanthony,

You should consided hitting the "modify" buttom which our host has so graciously provided...I use it all the time.

We may not fully understand what The Image of God fully means but to deny that The Word of God presents it as an absolute Truth is beyond absurd, imo.  You are way out of bounds in this area...at the moment.

But please, show us where The Word of God agrees with the following?  "However, Adam was re-created (born-again) in the image of God only at the point of his salvation."

As far as I know, The Bible does not address Adam and Eve's eternal state.  But you have...have you not?  So show us some proof or repent. tia

Jim 
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on March 05, 2005, 07:15:42 PM

It's no assumption that the bible says man was created in the image of God, that's a cold hard fact of scripture. Pilgrim had the right idea. We cannot contradict something God says without some real hard biblical facts to back it up.

The assumption I was referring to was not that God created man in his image, but that man lost that image and it will be restored after man is regenerated.  Can you show me where it says man lost the image of God in the fall?

Quote
I just don't see how we can deny this so cavalierly based upon the scant theories put forth thus far.

Well, I didn't think I was being cavalier.  I have been interested in this subject for a long time.  I had always been taught that man was made in the image of God and is still in the image of God, regenerated or not.  But when I see scriptures that talk about Christ being the image of God and man being conformed into his image, I would wonder.  I would like to see where in scripture it says specifically we lost the image of God in the fall (since you say it's not an assumption based on other scriptures)  --Not that I'm saying we didn't.  I'm not.  --I'm not trying to argue with anybody.  I'd just like to learn.  Sheesh!

Quote
I simply don't see all the assumption that you do in this.

Please be patient with people that arent as spiritually mature as you are.  :)  I know I've got ALOT to learn, but would like to think I can ask other christians.

Thanks,
Carol[/color]
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: andreas on March 05, 2005, 08:19:34 PM
<<<God is talking about man, and he created him in his own image. Man sinned and fell and was separted from God. That is why he was thrown out of the garden of eden. He was no longer in the image of God and could not remain with God who dwelled there. >>>

The whole image was not destroyed after the fall of Adam,as we can see in:

Genesis 9:6,

James3:9,and

1 Corr.11:7

There was however, loss of original righteousness as we can see in:

 Ephesians 4:24.

andreas 8)
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on March 05, 2005, 08:55:48 PM

I don't think this is as complicated as you imply.

Quote
[quote by andreas]
The whole image was not destroyed after the fall of Adam,as we can see in:

Genesis 9:6,

James3:9,and

1 Corr.11:7

There was however, loss of original righteousness as we can see in:

 Ephesians 4:24.

andreas 8)

This is what I was talking about Kenneth, in that scripture is complicated (to me at least) and must be revealed to us by God.  You say and have scripture to show that we lost the image of God in the fall and Andreas says we lost part of God's image in the fall and shows scripture for that view.  Dsouzaanthony says we never had the image of God to begin with and shows scripture for his view.  Most people I know say we were made in the image of God and never lost it, (which I don't think I agree with).

I'm just trying to figure out -which is it!

Andreas, what part of God's image do you believe unregenerate man still has?

Thanks,
Carol  :)
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 06, 2005, 04:27:09 AM
Dear all,
We dont want to study the word of God but want to argue about what we dont know.Please study the scriptures carefully and see whether God created Adam in his own image.If Adam wasperfect then why did he sin?It was law that brought his sin out.
Quote:Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law).God told Adam that he should not eat from the forbidden tree.Wasnt it Gods law then?
Jesus was tempted by satan in fact Jesus was led by the Spirit to be tempted.Why? so that his holiness and sinlessness be revealed.Jesus is God incarnate and could not have sinned.
Also the Bible says that the Lamb was slayed before the foundations of the world.Why does the bible say before the foundations of the world.If Adam would have been in the image of God then he should not have sinned.
I believe that it is Jesus who is the express image of God who could never sin and I thank God that this image he ha given his elect alone.
God bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kenneth White on March 06, 2005, 04:32:31 AM
This is what I was talking about Kenneth, in that scripture is complicated (to me at least) and must be revealed to us by God.  You say and have scripture to show that we lost the image of God in the fall and Andreas says we lost part of God's image in the fall and shows scripture for that view.  Dsouzaanthony says we never had the image of God to begin with and shows scripture for his view.  

That's where you are wrong. These people showed scripture it's true, but none of them showed scripture saying that man was "not" created in the image of God. And that is what this thread is all about. See the title if you don't believe it. I have submitted to you scripture that says man was created in the image of God. It's not confusing, it very plainly says that using those exact words. Others are giving scripture that they say implies this is not true. I say that it is wrong to deny God's word that way, and there is no way to make that right. Again I ask for confirmning scripture that we can do this, because as of today, I haven't read one single verse that contradicts our being created in the image of God. For the sake of clarity, please tell me where these verses are. Genesis 9 doesn't say that, 1st Corinthians 11 is talking about the Church.

Furthermore, you bring up all these different views by people as some sort of proof that the scripture saying "man was created in the image of God" is not clear? That's no proof. You can find people who disagree with every Christian doctrine and they bring scripture that they say implies they are right, but does that mean their argument is sound? Let me first start by again giving you scripture before I make my point.

 Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

That doesn't imply man was created in the image of God, that is God saying that man was created in the image of God. Second.

Ephesians 4:24 "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

This doesn't imply that when Saved, we are a new image of God created in righteousness, it actually says that.

 Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

While you continue to claim I'm implying something here, clearly God says that somewhere along the line man lost that image of God that He was created in, and "only" the elect have been predestinated to be "conformed to that image" that image in Christ. Point one: Genesis says they were created in the Image of God. Point 2: Romans says the believers have to be conformed to the image of God. You still think it's "assumption" that man lost it?

 Ezeliel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Man was perfect in the garden of Eden, until iniquity was found in him. Just because a poster says the image was not destroyed by the sin of the fall doesn't make God's word a lie. Because if we were still in the image, then there would be no need for Romans to declare that we needed to be "conformed" to the image of God, would there? Obviously, we are (as unsaved people) not conformed to the image of God. Christ, who is the express image of God, has to do that for us. It's the whole point of the lessons in scripture of man losing perfection in the fall. You just gloss over this part, and it's the "main point." Man was created perfect. That's not a side issue, it is the issue. That's not assumption, it is biblical fact. Perfection is the image of God.

I would ask you two questions. 1. Are you saying that man was not created perfect? 2. If not, then is it assumption that man lost that perfectiuon, or is it biblical fact?
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kenneth White on March 06, 2005, 04:49:06 AM
Dear all,
We dont want to study the word of God but want to argue about what we dont know.

I assume you are speak of yourself. Because you don't know anything about anyone here.


Quote
Please study the scriptures carefully and see whether God created Adam in his own image.If Adam wasperfect then why did he sin?

Adam being perfect is a fundamental truth of Christianity. In modern times there is just so much deviation from the old true precepts that every day there seems to be another theory about something. Of course Adam was created perfect. It's the whole doctrine of the "true" gospel.

 Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

You falsely make a union between Adam sinning and his original perfection. You can't do that. Adam was good, righteous, perfect in all the garden until the day he sinned. Why did he sin? Because in his perfection, he had a free will, that's why. Perfect means having no sin, and he was certainly without sin. Are you saying God created a flawed man, and then holds man responsible for his own flawed creation? No, what God created, he saw it was good. There was no imperfection in man, for God is not a novice builder, he is the ultimate archetect.

Christ coming as the second adam, yet without sin, restores us to that image of God that we were created in, that we are made perfect (without sin) again.

 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

 It was Adam who brought "imperfection" to man, and it is Christ who restores it.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 06, 2005, 05:21:46 AM
Dear All,

Thanks for your reply. Could you please provide scriptures to prove that Adam’s spirit ruled his flesh before the fall?    I’m searching the Bible to see where Adam walked in complete obedience to God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Was Adam (prior to his fall), excluded from “no flesh be justified”. 

Ro 8:7-9 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Scripture tells us that those who are saved are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Those who have the seal of the Holy Spirit cannot lose their salvation.  If Adam was indwelt by the Holy Spirit (because he was created in the image of God prior to his fall) how could he ever be lost?   In order to be spiritual one has to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
God Bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 06, 2005, 05:28:01 AM
Dear All,

Ezek 28:15-18
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O Covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Dear Kenneth please explain to me how was Adam an anointed cherub?

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on March 06, 2005, 07:34:57 AM
Dear All,

Ezek 28:15-18
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O Covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


Dear Kenneth please explain to me how was Adam an anointed cherub?


I actually read a very good piece on this by Tony warren some time ago. I forget what article it was in (maybe he can help me), but I'll search for it and see if I can get the part that deals with this. A lot of people here are so quick to insist things are one way without really having searched it out carefully. I would suggest we all not take the attitude that we possess all the secrets of the universe.


PS, I do believe Adam was created perfect and man's logic doesn't trump scripture. You can ask how can he be perfect when he sinned, and I can tell you he was perfect "until" he sinned. People can fudge all they like, but before man sinned, he was sinless. OBVIOUSLY! That's just a biblical fact. That makes him perfect in God's sight.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on March 06, 2005, 07:48:33 AM

Adam being perfect is a fundamental truth of Christianity. In modern times there is just so much deviation from the old true precepts that every day there seems to be another theory about something. Of course Adam was created perfect. It's the whole doctrine of the "true" gospel.


THANK YOU!  What people don't seem to understand is that if God's creation was flawed, then God was flawed when he cvlaimed it was perfect. He made something that was fundamentally faulty. Like making a vessel with a crack in it, saying it's perfect, and then teaching the vessel was not perfect. That's just wrong. The truth is that God made a perfect vessel, and man cracked it himself. It seems daily we get more and more unbiblical views coming into the church by people trying to figure God out.

 Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

By one man's transgression did mankind fall. How anyone can make the claim that this isn't true and Adam was sinning even before this transgression is just amazing. The wages of sin is death. If he sinned before this, then this sin was not the reason for death and all scripture stating this is just a pack of lies. This is the same mentality of the people who do the same thing in saying God didn't create the world in 6 literal days, and that it's all so complicated we can't understand it unless we view it some other way. This is nonsense. Adam was created perfect. God didn't create a flawed man. It's just so disturbing to hear people say these terrible things.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 06, 2005, 10:52:06 AM
Hi Everyone,

I believe no man can claim to know the complete truth of the Bible.  From the outset I have said that I could be wrong in my beliefs, so no one should follow any man (me in particular).  I gave my personal opinions as to why Adam was not created in God's image.

For one thing everyone over here knows that no one can be saved apart from the grace of God.  If Adam is projected high (prior to his fall), then we lower Christ.  The whole Bible is the testimony of Christ.  What we unknowingly suggest that before the fall of Adam, he had no need of Christ because he was perfect. No one can be perfect apart from God.  When Adam sinned, scripture says that we all sinned in him.  I don’t know how to phrase the words.

Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Scripture says that all have sinned.  We know that God is a just God, He will not impute sin on anyone unless all of us are prone to sin.  It is equivalent to every human being committing the same sin had they been put in the garden of Eden just as Adam was.  I know that many of you would be able to explain better.

I have provided scriptures from 1 Cor 15: 42-50 to prove that this creation is not the perfect one.  For God had only one purpose for creating this world for the glory of His Grace.  He sows the natural and will reap spiritual through the natural. 

1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This takes us right to the creation of Adam.  Adam was in need of Christ from the time of  his creation in order to quicken his spirit.

We know that only remnant of mankind will be saved, and the rest will remain in condemnation.  Yet God takes full responsibility for His actions:

Rom 9:20-21
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Can anyone question God for creating the earth without form and void.?  Can anyone question God why he allowed darkness there?  But we can understand that He commanded the Light to shine, that Light we know is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So God had only one purpose for creating thus, for His salvation plan. 

John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


This scripture takes us right to Genesis 1 isn’t it?

Anyway, I don’t claim to know much.  Perhaps, many of you know much better than me.  I just can’t reconcile why there are two creation accounts of man in Gen 1:26 and Gen 2:7 if it is no small matter at all.  I don’t want to involve in any argument with anyone neither personal attacks on anyone.  I know that if I claim to know everything, I know nothing at all.

God Bless.

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 06, 2005, 11:37:55 AM
Reformer,
Kenneth quoted the scripture which actually doesnt talk about Adam (who cannot be the annoited cherub).
If you go by Tonys study I think you will know the discription of a cherub.Please ask Tony warren to explain the same.He will tell you whether Adam was the cherub or no mentioned in Ezekeil.
God bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on March 06, 2005, 03:43:40 PM
Stacia,

Here is the link to Tony Warren's article on cheribum. 

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/what_are_cherubim.shtml

Here is a short quote from the study:  "At first glance it is easy to see how one could make such a mistake about the king representing a fallen angel. However, rather than reading into this text an angel, the king of Tyrus is quite clearly a Man being castigated by God for being created in the image of God as righteous, but who has turned from God in his sin, and has thus come under judgement. So rather than represent an angel, this man represents man. It is man as he was in Adam before the fall. Man, as he was created in the "image" of God, but who has fallen, in Adam."

Sandy     

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on March 06, 2005, 05:09:27 PM
Stacia,

Here is the link to Tony Warren's article on cheribum. 

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/what_are_cherubim.shtml

Here is a short quote from the study:  "At first glance it is easy to see how one could make such a mistake about the king representing a fallen angel. However, rather than reading into this text an angel, the king of Tyrus is quite clearly a man being castigated by God for being created in the image of God as righteous, but who has turned from God in his sin, and has thus come under judgement.



Thank you Sandy for finding that. I knew I had read it in one of Tony's articles, but he has so many of them I couldn't find which one I had read about it. I think it's a very interesting point and one that merits further study.

One thing I do know, man was created in the image of God.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on March 06, 2005, 06:39:17 PM
Kenneth,
I think you are right.  We were made in the image of God, lost that image in the fall, and that image is restored to believers.  That's pretty much what I thought before but just didn't have a good grasp on the 'loosing the image' part.  I didn't mean to call God a liar, or make things complicated, or make assumptions, and such as that.  I'm just a sinner saved by grace, who has ALOT to learn.  But I appreciate you taking the time to teach me from God's word.

I do believe though that there are verses that sound like they mean one thing, when in actuality they mean something else.  Here is an example:

1 John 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doeth not commit sin:  for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Just reading this verse, you would think it's saying believers cannot sin.  But we know that we all sin.  After further study of this verse and comparing it with other verses, I believe that it means we cannot sin if we are 'in Christ' because he cannot sin and is perfectly righteous, and that righteousness is imputed to us.

For a long time, I just couldn't understand this verse.  It was a 'complicated' verse to me.  Once the Lord opened my eyes and with help from other believers' writings, it became 'uncomplicated.'

Anyway, my point is --just because something is really simple and uncomplicated to you, it may not be the same for someone else.  God doesnt reveal everything to everyone at the same time.  We (believers) are all growing and learning things as God reveals them to us.  --Maybe I'm just a slow learner.  :)

Anyway, thanks for your help,
Carol

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 06, 2005, 11:13:07 PM
Carol,

I disagree with Pilgrim when he stated that Adam was created perfect and sinless as God Himself.  Here are my reasons:

As long as Adam obeyed God he was OK but there is always a chance that he could fall in the future by his own free-will.  As long as there was a chance that he could fall is not what Bible calls perfect.   By contrast see the divine character of Christ:

Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Why did Christ not sin?  It is because of his divine nature.  He was tempted in all respects, obedient to God in all respects and yet without sin. Compare Christ's nature to Adam's and you will know the difference.  As long as there was a possibility for Adam to fall, you could not call him perfect.  No one can be perfect apart from Christ.  Christ is preeminent in all things.  I don't know if Tony would agree with me.  But I found his article "Why Did Christ Say God Had Forsaken Him?" to be excellent.  That's how Christ is.

To say that Adam had sinless perfection is to say in one way that he is God. 

Quote by Carol
God doesnt reveal everything to everyone at the same time.  We (believers) are all growing and learning things as God reveals them to us.  --Maybe I'm just a slow learner. 

Yes I can agree with you.  I am a slow learner.

God Bless,

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: andreas on March 07, 2005, 12:53:24 AM
<<<God is talking about man, and he created him in his own image. Man sinned and fell and was separted from God. That is why he was thrown out of the garden of eden. He was no longer in the image of God and could not remain with God who dwelled there. >>>

I was responding to the above statement when i said ,

"The whole image was not destroyed after the fall of Adam,as we can see in:

Genesis 9:6,

James 3:9,and

1 Corr.11:7

There was however, loss of original righteousness as we can see in:

Ephesians 4:24."

<<<These people showed scripture it's true, but none of them showed scripture saying that man was "not" created in the image of God.>>>

No one would deny scripture that clearly states man was created in God's image,and that includes me.Kindly cast an eye on my Avatar.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."Genesis 1:27

I was arguing that man lost some, but not  the whole image of God after the fall.

andreas 8)

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on March 07, 2005, 03:33:38 AM
No one would deny scripture that clearly states man was created in God's image,and that includes me.Kindly cast an eye on my Avatar.

andreas 8)

I would disagree because dsouzaanthony has denied it. In fact, He has said very clearly that "Man was NOT created in the image of God. See his own words! He has claimed he provided scripture that proves that this creation (man) was not a perfect one. Again, see his own words. I have yet to see this scripture that proves this, but he says he gave them. No scripture he has given says anything about man not being created perfect. You seemed to agree with him, and that is what we are debating against. Because this is a dangerous doctrine that can undercut the whole gospel message of original sin, as Kenneth so adequately explained. All I'm saying is that man was created in the image of God, not the planets, not the stars, not the universe and earth, but man. Just like the scripture says. It's not a metaphor, man actually was created in the likeness of God.

So when you say "No one would deny scripture that clearly states man was created in God's image," you are wrong because dsouzaanthony's exact words are "man was not created in the image of God." That's exactly what he said. So someone is denying it and Christians do not feel they can sit back and not say anything when that happens. It's one thing to say we are created in the image of God in this sense or that sense, but it is another to actually "deny" we are created in the image of God. That is a very wrong thing to do.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on March 07, 2005, 03:50:29 AM
Carol,

I disagree with Pilgrim when he stated that Adam was created perfect and sinless as God Himself. 



Pilgrim never said that. What Pilgrim said, and what most Christians would agree with, is that Adam was created perfect, without sin, in the image of God. There was no need for you to twist his words to make it sound like He said man was God. That's not what he said or what he meant and you know that. The fact remains, man was perfect until he sinned, then he was corrupted and became a sinner before God unworthy to remain in the garden of Eden.


Quote
To say that Adam had sinless perfection is to say in one way that he is God. 

You are just kicking up dust, it is not saying man is God to say that there was original sin, and before that man was without sin, perfect, created in the image of God. Not created God, but created in the image of God's perfection. Man is flesh and blood, God is not. However, to say Adam was created imperfect and with sin before the fall is to call God a liar and is an attack on the christian doctrine of original sin. You know that.


Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 07, 2005, 12:23:21 PM
Reformer,
You said that Kenneth explained clearly.But I say he doesnt know what is the meaning of cherub.He indirectly means that Adam is the cherub in Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. {sardius: or, ruby} {beryl: or, chrysolite} {emerald: or, chrysoprase}Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Can you explain at least.How can you agree to a person who has created doubts?
God Bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on March 07, 2005, 03:35:11 PM
Stacia,

The verses in Ezekiel can refer to only one of two beings...Satan, or Adam?  To which do you contend these words are spoken?  The article on cherubim by Tony Warren is of great help in clearing up the mystery.

Sandy   
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: andreas on March 07, 2005, 10:11:59 PM
<<<These people showed scripture it's true, but none of them showed scripture saying that man was "not" created in the image of God.>>>

The above statement clearly states "THESE people",and none of "THEM" which is plural,and as Carol mentioned my name ,i took it to also apply to me.One thing that i have learned since i first came here is, SOLA SCRIPTURA,and that human ideas,interpretations,and speculations,are not worth the paper they are written on.The scriptures say that God created man in his own image,and that is clear enough.There is no room for debate.I do not agree with 'dsouzaanthony'.
andreas. 8)
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Baerchild on March 08, 2005, 12:30:36 AM

Why did Christ not sin?  It is because of his divine nature. 

dsouzaanthony,

Once again, show us where The Word of God agrees with the following?  "However, Adam was re-created (born-again) in the image of God only at the point of his salvation." dsouzaanthony

Can you help us with a verse which teaches that Christ did not sin because of His devine nature?  Maybe there's an essay which claims that what The Lord Jesus Christ did was no big deal; hey, He is God, of course He doesn't sin!

Is that what you're up to?  To diminish the work of the Lord? 

Jim

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 09, 2005, 12:17:31 PM
Sandasbee,
It cannot be satan as satan cannot have the glory of God but i believe that Ezekeil talks about the church in the end times.
The church has Gods anointment which is lost during these end times.It was perfect till sin was found(Abomination of desolation).
God bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on March 09, 2005, 05:07:17 PM
Stacia,

Have you read Tony Warren's article about cherubim?  The end times church?  (Vs. 15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.)  Where, in all of Scripture do we find the church ever described as being perfect?

You are correct in saying these verses do not describe Satan. 

Sandy   
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 10, 2005, 08:09:51 AM
Sandysbee,
I dont want to prove that I am right but dont you believe that the the church has the righteousness of Christ who is perfect.Of course we know that the church will be desolate in the end times.Also there are some verses in the Bible which says that the church had the glory of God.According to the study of the cherubiums that is the attribute of God and definately satan can never have.Only the church can qualify to have because of the righteousness of Christ.I am still studying the same and will soon post it by Gods grace.
Let God open our eyes to know his word.
God bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on March 10, 2005, 08:14:09 AM
Stacia,

Have you read Tony Warren's article about cherubim?  The end times church?  (Vs. 15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.)  Where, in all of Scripture do we find the church ever described as being perfect?

You are correct in saying these verses do not describe Satan. 

Sandy   

Correct Sandy. Also, where do we ever read of the church being described as being created? It sounds like "man" to me.

 Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 Ge 5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

 De 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?

 Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 11, 2005, 12:15:55 PM
Dear sandysbee,
Please read Ezekeil 28:14 carefully
Quote: Eze 28:4 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.Please read verse 16 by the multitude of thy merchandise.What is merchandise? It’s the false gospel preaching.Who is doing it now of course it’s the corporate church.The church was perfect but now we all know what has happened.
This definitely will not talk about Adam Nor Satan.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
We are new creatures in Christ Jesus(Church)That is the true believers throughout the world.2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  
God bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Daniel on March 11, 2005, 02:07:36 PM
Stacia,
Ez. 28:13
     Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; etc. etc. Was the church in The garden of eden?
                                                                       Dan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on March 11, 2005, 07:52:58 PM
Stacia,

Ezekiel is lamenting against the king of Tyrus.  You need to ask yourself who or what does this king of Tyrus symbolize?  The king of Tyrus, like all mankind was created in the image of God, but he has turned from God in his sin, and now comes under judgment of God.  Can you see where this king of Tyrus represents a man, in fact fallen man, as in Adam?  It was man who was created perfect.  It was man who was perfect in the mountain, or kingdom of God, but the sin of Adam separated man from God.

The following if from Tony Warren:  What Are Cherubim?

  Romans 8:29   "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

“It was man (Adam, not angels) who was in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God, as the very image of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that garden. In point of fact, the very name "Tyrus" means a stone. So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here. It was in Adam that man, in the image of God, was perfect in all his ways in the garden among the stones of God, from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from grace by Adam. God is here illustrating to us, fallen man. Man qualifies by attempting to be like God by eating of the tree of knowledge. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But Angels do not. We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And did Not God say these very things of Adam?”

These verses in Ezekiel 28 symbolize Adam, who represents all fallen mankind.  It is not a picture of the church.  Stacia, do a word search for cherub, or better yet learn from the study Tony has already done.  This way you won’t have to keep guessing about what the cherub in Ezekiel represents. 

Sandy     
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on March 12, 2005, 04:21:56 AM
Dear sandysbee,
Please read Ezekeil 28:14 carefully

God bless

 We all should read Ezekiel carefully. Can you see that whoever it is talking about, it says he has been in the garden of Eden from the day he was created. Was the Church in the garden of Eden, or was man in the garden of Eden? Who does Genesis say was the only ones in the garden of Eden, and who corrupted themselves? Was it the Prince of Tyrus, The Church, Satan, Angels, or Adam? The only ones we read were there were Adam and Satan, but satan didn't corrupt himself, Adam did and was removed lest he eat of the tree and become like God. Perfectly reflecting what God is saying in Ezekiel.

 Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

The church just doesn't fit harmoneously, but Man does.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 19, 2005, 07:49:49 AM
Hello everyone,

Let me shed some light on teh discussion going on in this thread....

Those who think that Adam was created in the image of God perfect blameless and holy which only Christ is entitled to don't believe in teh doctrine of predestination.

According as he hath chosen us in him(in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:   (Eph 1:4) (We only become holy to God being in Christ)

Who(Christ) verily was foreordained before the foundation  of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,  (1 Pet 1:20) (Cud Adam frustrate the Salvation plan of God by remaining obedient and was there a need of a Savior if Adam was perfect)

….. the Lamb slain from the foundation  of the world.” Rev 13:8 

"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation  of the world."    (Heb 4:3)

In Principle Christ was slain before the foundation of this world.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man(includes Adam) knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man (includes Adam)the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.  (Mat 11:27) 

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation  of the world:"    (Mat 25:34)(The KIngdom of God was prepared for those whom God chose before the foundation of this world)

What is the Kingdom of God?( Romans 14:17.  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.)

One becomes righteous,holy and has peace with God only in Christ!!!!!

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation  of the world."    (John 17:24) (Only Jesus had perfect relationship with the Father)

Only Christ is the image Of God:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (Phil 2:6-9) 

2Cor4:4.  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15.  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Heb 1:3.  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Adam was earthy and cannot be in the image of God
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (Christ who is the image of God) (1 Cor 15:47)

… he (Adam)that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he(Christ) that cometh from heaven is above all.  (John 3:31)

If you'll think Adam had the image of God before the fall then you'll deny so many scriptures when you'll take Gen 1:26- 27 literally.  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 27.  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


We can only have the image of God in Christ and apart from christ we are all Dung!!!!!

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature(in the Image od God)old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (not renew) (2 Cor 5:17)

Peace!!!





Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 19, 2005, 01:36:48 PM
Hello everyone,

Let me shed some light on teh discussion going on in this thread....

Those who think that Adam was created in the image of God perfect blameless and holy which only Christ is entitled to don't believe in teh doctrine of predestination.

Shoan,

Let me shed some light on the way you began your post.  It's one thing to say... 'Adam was created in the image of God, in the sense that ....',  but you're fighting a losing battle when you begin a post which, off the bat, denies what God has declared in His Word.

Secondly, if we define 'perfect' and 'blameless' to mean "without sin", then yes we can say this describes Adam before his fall, particularly if one believes that the Ezekial passage mentioned by others, refers to Adam, notably:
EZ 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.  
But 'holy'?  Who said anything about Adam being holy?

The bulk of your post, in my opinion, misses the point.  I think most know we are made perfect in Christ.  But, unlike Adam[/u], we began this life in a state of sin, whereas Adam began 'blameless'.   You seem to forget this important distinction.  God also sometimes refers to men like Job as 'perfect' --  in the sense that when God looks upon one who has the covering of Christ, He sees perfection.

Job 1:8 
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?  

Consider the temptation of Adam who succombed, versus the temptation of Job who endured.  What was the difference?  Adam was created blameless and without sin... until iniquity was found in his heart.  Job was born in sin but was at some point saved -- covered by the blood of Christ who was slain before the foundation of the world.

Job therefore (despite his human failing), by the Grace of God endured until the end.  That is why salvation offers godly repentence and assurance from the wrath of God, whereas being 'blameless', but without Christ, is a very tenuous and short-lived state, for as in Adam... all die (spiritually and physically).  Thus, Job abhored and repented of his short-comings, whereas Adam made excuses and tried to blame it on Eve.

Job 42:6 
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. .

Gen 3:12 
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.  

In my initial post I mentioned the need to reconcile and find harmony in all passages in the Bible related to any given topic.  Your views are totally unacceptable to me because instead of dealing with God's declaration that He made Adam in His image, you deny it.   In my initial post, I also mentioned the possibility that Adam was created in the image of God, in the sense that he -- unlike all other creatures, was given an eternal soul.  That works for me, until such time further light is shed on this topic, ...not by denying what God said but by taking what He said as true and as the starting point.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 19, 2005, 11:07:45 PM
Hi Judy,
U said regarding adam: EZ 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

But it is referring to Satan and not Adam: here is biblical proof:

Ezek. 26-28 are of a piece. The three chapters deal with the time we live in now. God is calling the rebellious, apostate church (the organizational entity He commisioned at Pentacost) Tyre because they are behaving as idolatrous Tyre behaved. God has withdrawn Himself from this organized entity, the church, and loosed Satan upon it as a dire Judgment. Now this church has turned to Satan as it he were god. God explicitely teaches this in Ezek. 26:2.
> Ezek 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
>
>Satan said against the earthly Jerusalem, church, Aha God's corporate church that used to be the gate through which God's people entered to worship Him has now turned unto me and worships me as if I were god. I am winning. My hatred of mankind can now accomplish their utter destruction. That's the sense of it. So this 3 chapter passage starts out with Satan in control of that which God has thrown off due to it's apostasy.
>
2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.>
>Then after many solomn judgments by God we get to Ezek. 28. Because he was typified by the man Nebuchednezzar and because he must work through men to accomplish his purposes, God often calls Satan a man.
>
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
>
>The words "anointed", "cherub" and "covereth" (Hebrew originals) always refer to God except in Ezek. 28:14. Also the precious stones in vs. 13 approximate, but differ in significant respects, the High Priest's breastplate. Thus we are dealing with an entity in Ezek. 28 that looks a whole lot like Christ -- but isn't.
>
>A key is the phrase "sealest up the sum."
>
>Evidence for Satan being in view in Ezek. 28 is from Ezek. 43:11. As you know the temple (and the tabernacle before it) was built according to a *pattern* in heaven with God. God showed it (Christ crucified the outworking of the gospel through His work/faith) to Moses who copied it in the construction of the tabernacle and to David who passed it along to his son, Solomon, who ordered the building of the temple after it. The pattern was spiritual and resided with God and provided salvation in accordance with the elective program. The temple was an earthy copy that pointed to the pattern, but did not itself save anyone. The original pattern is the true gospel of Christ crucified and resides with God in heaven.
>
>O.K. now look at Ezek. 43:10-12. The context beginning with Ezek. 43:1 and following is very important to have in mind. The glory of the Lord comes from the East and fills the house of God. Then God instructs Ezekiel to show the house which is full of the glory of God to the house of Israel so that they will be ashamed of their iniquities. AND they are told to measure the pattern (tokniyth:H8508). As we see from the next verse (vs. 11) this is the pattern of the spiritual temple. Several things are really interesting here:
>
>1. Tokniyth, the word for pattern is only used twice in the Hebrew OT. This really important word is used by God in just two places -- here in Ezek. 43:10 AND in Ezek. 28:12 where it is mistranslated "sum." The context of Ezek. 43:11 clearly confirms that the translation of tokniyth closest to God's usage is "pattern." Also in Ezek. 28:12 "sealest" is chatham which in Dan. 12:4 and 9 means "prevent from coming out," "seal" so that no one can see it until God allows them to. So in Ezek. 28:12 what Satan does is suppress the gospel so it is sealed up from view. "Sum" is rejected as incorrect and "pattern" (in the spiritual, true gospel sense) becomes the preferred translation. Together with the correct biblical understanding of chatham (sealed), this puts a whole new light on Ezek. 28:12 and makes it additional evidence that Satan is in view.
>
>2. Here are the verses from the KJV followed by the Hebrew. I put the word "form" or "forms" in purple. Notice that it occurs four times in vs.11. Astoundingly, the Hebrew original (also in purple) is used by God no where else -- only here in vs. 11 and here FOUR times. For God to use a word in only one verse and there four times must be exceedingly rare and possible altogether unique. This has to make us sit up and take notice. It is the *feminine* form of the common word for rock as in "Rock of our salvation" (Ps. 95:1). So we have to ask, "Why did God use the feminine form of "rock" here and no where else"? I think it because the spiritual temple is made up of Christ and His bride who is feminine. He is the rock on which the house is built. The saved elect are spiritual stones built into the spiritual house.
>
> Ezek 43:10  Thou son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern (tokniyth:H8508).
>
>
>
>    Remember God only uses tokniyth here and Ezek. 28:12. So here God is being very definite about what it means. The word "form" in the next verse is being used as a synomym.
>
Ezek 43:11  And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, show them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
>
> Ezek 43:12  This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
>
>
>
>Ezek 43:10  . ben:H1121 . 'adam:H120 nagad:H5046 . bayith:H1004 . . bayith:H1004 . yisra'el:H3478 . . . . kalam:H3637 . . 'avon:H5771 . . . madad:H4058 . tokniyth:H8508
>
>Ezek 43:11  . 'im:H518 . . kalam:H3637 . kol:H3605 . . . 'asah:H6213 yada':H3045 . . tsuwrah:H6699 . . bayith:H1004 . . tekuwnah:H8498 . . . mowtsa':H4161 . . . . mowba':H4126 . . . kol:H3605 . tsuwrah:H6699 . . kol:H3605 . chuqqah:H2708 . . kol:H3605 . tsuwrah:H6699 . . kol:H3605 . towrah:H8451 . . kathab:H3789 . . . 'ayin:H5869 . . . shamar:H8104 . kol:H3605 tsuwrah:H6699 . . kol:H3605 . chuqqah:H2708 . . 'asah:H6213 .
>
>
>
>8498. tekuwnah, tek-oo-naw'; fem. pass. part. of H8505; adjustment, i.e. structure; by impl. equipage:--fashion, store.
>
>8505. takan, taw-kan'; a prim, root; to balance, i.e. measure out (by weight or dimension); fig. to arrange, equalize, through the idea of levelling (ment, estimate, test):--bear up, direct, be ([un-]) equal, mete, ponder, tell, weigh.

>6699. tsuwrah, tsoo-raw'; fem. of H6697; a rock (Job 28 : 10); also a form (as if pressed out):--form, rock.
>
>6697. tsuwr, tsoor; or  tsur, tsoor; from H6696; prop. a cliff (or sharp rock, as compressed); gen. a rock or boulder; fig. a refuge; also an edge (as precipitous):--edge, X (mighty) God (one), rock, X sharp, stone, X strength, X strong. See also H1049.
>
>God's use of the feminine form of the Hebrew word for rock in Ezek. 43:11 four times (and no where else) has aroused our curiosity. This in turn has caused us to notice the word "pattern" in Ezek. 43:10 and that it is only used in *one* other verse, Ezek. 28:12. This led us to correctly understand that Satan stops the pattern of the gospel. Certainly he cannot ever stop the gospel totally, but this is his malicious desire and he carries it out wherever possible.

>There are additional observations in Ezek. 26-28 that further confirm that the Prince/King of Tyre is Satan.

And regarding Job,I agree that Job was perfect in Christ and apart from Christ no one can be perfect and that's what I exactly meant as I clearly stated that the elect were chosen before the foundation of teh world in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him which means that even Adam before he sinned needed a savior and that's the whole point of this study.....ONLY CHRIST IS TEH IMAGE OF GOD!!!!

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 20, 2005, 02:06:45 AM
Quote
quote from Shoan:  ONLY CHRIST IS TEH IMAGE OF GOD!!!!

Sloan, 

You spent your entire post talking about Ezekial which is not the main topic of discussion.  I appreciate the Scriptures and will study what you had to say about whether the passage in Ez 28:15 refers to man or Satan.  But again, that doesn't negate what God declares in Genesis. 

Gen 1:27 
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 9:6 
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.  

Why don't you deal with the issue at hand and just answer one question... how do you reconcile your views with Gen 1:27, 9:5?
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Frank Mortimer on March 20, 2005, 07:08:14 AM
Hi Judy,
U said regarding adam: EZ 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

But it is referring to Satan and not Adam: here is biblical proof:

Ezek. 26-28 are of a piece. The three chapters deal with the time we live in now. God is calling the rebellious, apostate church (the organizational entity He commisioned at Pentacost) Tyre because they are behaving as idolatrous Tyre behaved.

 This is not biblical proof. Tyrus is a illustration of man. More than that, it is an illustration of the man of the church, just as Adam was a man created perfectly. It's not Tyre that is illustrating Satan here, it is the king of babylon that is symbolizing satan, and he comes up upon man who was created perfect and is the judgment of God upon them. God makes use of the agency of Satan against wicked man as well as of good men for the accomplishment of his purposes. The king of Babylon comes against man.

 Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
 8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
 9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

The way you understand this, you have Satan attacking Satan. The King of Babylon attacking the King of Tyrus. You're on the right track, but you are not staying on track. I believed as you do, but have since considered both positions in light of scripture and I believe Tyrus cannot represent Satan. He is used by God as representing "man" who was created perfect, and has fallen. And will have the King of Babylon, which is Satan, destroy him.

 Secondarily, 2nd thessalonians chapter 2 is all about "man" taking a position as God in the Church. Yes, he's controlled by Satan, but it's man. The number 666 is the number of man, not a man. See Tony's study of the beast and of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 for biblical proof. I've found that it all ties together. After the fall, Adam was thrown out of the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and become as God.

 Genesis 1:26, 27 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Adam was the one created perfect until iniquity was found in him. Adam was the anointed Cherub, the very image of God in the garden of Eden. Satan was not the cherubim or image of God! Nowhere do we read that Satan was the image of God in the garden. But we do read that about Adam. And we come to truth by comparing scripture with scripture.

Let me say that I once believed as you do, but after growing and studying this more carefully, I see that it does represent man. And the biblical proof is that if the King of Babylon represents Satan, and we all know he does, we cannot have the King Satan coming against the King Satan. The King of Babylon comes against the King of Tyrus. Satan always comes against man. And particularly, the man of God who has fallen into sin. The man of sin, not Satan against Satan.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 20, 2005, 08:59:39 AM
Hi Judy,
before we see these scriptures(Gen 1:27 and 9:6) let me make a valid point from the sriptures below and then let's see what God means when He says He created man in His own Image.

Genesis1: 2.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 3.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
 4.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


God said Let there be light and there was light(v3)....let's see in 2Corin 4:6 what God says about the light when He said let there be light..   For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

If God says this light (Gen 1:3) is Christ then we cant simply say that the darkness in Gen 1:2 is simply being dark that one cannot see...it surely means that without Christ who is the light everything is void ,without form and the darkness is spiritual much as it was literal.

John8:12.  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Heb1:2.  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3.  Who being the brightness of his glory(compare with 2Cor4:6), and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
;Heb 1:5.  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

When God said let there be light it simply means God foreordained Christ to be the Savior through whom He would save mankind(teh elect).Who verily was foreordained before the foundation  of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,  (1 Pet 1:20)

When God says in Gen 1:26 let Us make Man in our image,according to Our likeness...it was not Adam he was creating...Adams creation account is in Gen 2:7  And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It was the new man in Christ Jesus He created...And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.  (Eph 4:24) 

And have put on the new man, which is made new in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  (Col 3:10) 

2Corin5:17.  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new  piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.  And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new  bottles.  (Mark 2:21-22)

God is not repairing Adam but making him all together new in Christ by saving him.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  (Gen 2:7)

1 Cor. 15:45.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
 46.  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 47.  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 48.  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
 49.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 50.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Likewise after the flood of God’s wrath in Noah’s day, God reaffirms His plan for the elect of mankind in Christ, the image of God.  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.  (Gen 9:6)

Matthew 23: 29.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
 30.  And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
 31.  Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
 32.  Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
 33.  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
 34.  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
 35.  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
 36.  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37.  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 27:24.  When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
 25.  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


God will require at the hands of the wicked the blood they shed of His Son and His people...that's what Gen9:6 means......Because Christ is teh image of God and His people are created in that Image.

Peace!!!



Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 20, 2005, 10:23:48 AM
Shoan,

Thought I would add my two cents.  Consider following passage:

John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


In other words it was not sin that brought about the occasion for this historical parable; it was God's desire to make His works manifest in the man. This harmonizes with the idea that God's purposes did not hinge upon the fulcrum of Adam's actions. God simply did in all sovereignty that which it was His purpose to do. Namely, to make His saving works manifest in the elect.

Also consider the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Tradition would have it that Adam by using his supposed free will could have (by resisting temptation) rendered the Lamb's purposed sacrifice and love for the elect both superfluous and irrelevant. Did the purposes of God to display His mercy and love really run the risk of being blocked by the actions of the creature? Did Adam really possess so much power that he could either instigate God's salvation plan by rebelling or render it superfluous by remaining faithful?
I think the Bible teaches that God made Adam natural and earthy in the beginning and that he could never for an instant emulate the righteousness of Jesus - The Man who is also God.

Also, I don't find for Adam's special case (presumadely before his fall) anywhere in the scriptures.  In other words there wasn't any time in Adam's life where he did not need Christ.

Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:  21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The above scripture does not talk about fall of Adam but rather it teaches that he was accountable to God.

I think I have made my points very clear.

God Bless

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sojourner on March 20, 2005, 12:10:27 PM
Genesis1: 2.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 3.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
 4.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


God said Let there be light and there was light(v3)....let's see in 2Corin 4:6 what God says about the light when He said let there be light..   For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

If God says this light (Gen 1:3) is Christ then we cant simply say that the darkness in Gen 1:2 is simply being dark that one cannot see..


Now I'm getting a little wary of your teaching Shaon. Are you one of those people who over-spiritualize so much that you end up denying the foundational truths of Genesis? It's not literal light? It's not man literally created in God's image? It's not the world literally created in 6 days? Because that's what it sounds like to me. It's been mentioned before with dsouzaanthony, and it sounds like you both are from the same line of thinking.

How can you say when God said let there be light, He was talking of Christ? Did God create Christ on that day? God created light on that day, not Christ. Christ wasn't created in Genesis, and so your interpretation is very bad. Yes it spiritually means that without Christ everything is void, but that hardly means God was not talking about literal light. Likewise, it doesn't mean that man wasn't created in the image of God just because Christ conforms him to that image.  You have to accept what's written first. Then see where it goes.

 Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

That is the starting point, not the point of contention. And that is why your interpretation is wrong. The spiritual does not make the literal void. You can't just say because there is a deeper spiritual meaning in Genesis, that means man was not created in God's image, or that it was not literal light that brightened the darkness, it was spiritually Christ. You mess up a whole lot of other truths that way.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on March 20, 2005, 03:28:00 PM
Let's assume for a moment that the anointed cherub in Ezekiel 28 is referring to Satan, and not Adam.  Wouldn't that mean that an angel, a fallen one at that, is also called a cherub?  Can we find other verses of Scripture where angels are referred to as cherub(ims)?  If a cherub is an angel, doesn't that mean that when God gave instructions about building the Tabernacle, and ark of the covenant, and included cherub(ims) in the design, (Ex. 25) that His instructions included breaking the Law He had previously given?  Ex. 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

I mean angels are spirit beings who reside in heaven.  This was even true of Satan until he was cast out.  So, how can an angel, even a fallen one, be called an anointed cherub? Contrary to popular opinion, a cherub is never a reference to an angel in Scripture.

Sandy         

       
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 20, 2005, 05:13:41 PM
Sloan,

You really jumped thru hoops in your last post, still trying to deny God's declaration that He created man in His image.  As stated in my previous posts, you can't come to truth by denying a passage of Scripture because it won't neatly fit into your scheme of things.  We can’t ‘rightly divide’ God’s Word by ‘wresting’ Scripture in an attempt to make it conform to our personal views and opinions. We instead begin with the premise that God's Word is the authority, and allow the Bible to be its own interpreter... comparing Scripture with Scripture.  For when one’s beginning premises are wrong, one error lead to more error.

2Pe 3:16-17
16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.  

You started your last post by speaking of the creation in general, which (I agree) does indeed reflect much spiritual truths regarding God's gospel plan.  However, the creation account in Genesis simultaneously reflects the actual historical account along with what they are a ‘shadow’ of spiritually.  You deny the literal account and only acknowledge its underlying spiritual significance,  instead of allowing the context of the Scriptures themselves lead you to embrace both aspects -- the literal and the spiritual.

Quote
When God says in Gen 1:26 let Us make Man in our image,according to Our likeness...it was not Adam he was creating...Adams creation account is in Gen 2:7  And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It was the new man in Christ Jesus He created...And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.  (Eph 4:24)  

And have put on the new man, which is made new in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  (Col 3:10)  

2Corin5:17.  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gen 2 is but a further elaboration on the same creation account that was introduced in Gen 1.  Gen 1 says God created man,... Gen 2 fills in the details.  These are not two creation accounts, but one and the same.  I realize there is a sect of heretical teaching -- based on the imaginations of men that teaches two creation accounts.  I hope that is not the direction you are leaning towards.

Neither the context of Gen 1,2, nor the Bible's teachings as a whole will allow your interpretation that God did not really mean what He said about creating man in His image, but (according to you) was just spiritualizing about "the new man in Jesus Christ".  That just doesn't make sense.   Like most of your posts, you mix truth with fiction, and often stray from the topic at hand by arguing things that are not under contention... like that fact that when one is saved, they are made a new creature in Christ.  

The fact that we are indeed made a new creature in Christ, provides a key to understanding the distinct differences between the first Adam , and Christ 'the second Adam'.  As stated in earlier, Adam needed a Savior just as surely as we need Christ today.  Therefore those passages in the NT about becoming a new creation in Christ Jesus apply to all of mankind from Adam onward.  

So then, in what way was Adam created in God’s image?  One possibility that I have offered is the fact that Adam, like all mankind, was given an eternal soul/spirit whereby even those who try to deny God, know deep in their souls that He exists, is the Creator of all things, and will be ‘without excuse’ on the day of judgment.

Rom 1:18-20 
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:  


Please consider that salvation entails being ‘born again’ -- born from above, a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Joh 3:3-5
3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So then, Adam was created with an eternal soul.  And he was also created without sin – an initial state of being  ‘perfect’ and ‘blameless’… until he succumbed to the temptation of  the flesh.  BUT, we can’t equate Adam’s initial state of sinlessness or perfection with salvation; this appears to be at the root of your error (and rebellion) when you insist (despite what God says) that man was not created in God’s image.

As mentioned earlier, Job (a picture of saved man after Adam’s fall) was also described by God as ‘perfect’, but not from the same  vantage point of being created sinless as Adam was.  But rather from the vantage point of  being born again/born from above – created anew in Christ, whereby his soul (which had been dead in trespasses and sins, due to Adam's fall) was‘quickened’.  And  his sins  (past, present and future) were washed clean or covered by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:4-5
4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  

And so, although Adam’s initial state was one of perfection (sinless/blameless), we are given these distinct differences between Adam, and Christ -- the “the second Adam”.  Namely Christ -- albeit He assumed a human nature to become our Kinsman Redeemer,  never ceased to be God and was ‘born’ “holy”,  with a soul that was already full of God’s Spirit “without measure”.   Christ’s perfection was not so much in the fact that He was sinless (as was Adam initially), but more so in the fact that He was able to adhere to both the letter and the spirit of the law.  For Christ was the law – the Word made flesh.  He was thereby never ‘at risk’ (for lack of a better word) of not keeping the law perfectly and perpetually.

Joh 3:34-35
34  For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Mat 1:18
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 1:35 
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 4:34
  Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou  destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Compare also these two passages which makes a key distinction between Adam in his initial state of perfection (but not salvation), versus  one who is ‘born again’ into the lasting perfection of Christ.

Gen 2:7 
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Joh 20:22 
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:  

As thus, we can begin to reconcile and find harmony with these passages that you gave:

2Corin5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Cor. 15:45-52
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That last passage, when ‘rightly divided’ provides a side-by-side comparison of the dual nature of Adam and all mankind  (eternal soul that recognizes God, but a body of flesh prone to sin, which cannot inherit heaven),  – versus -- Christ the “second Adam”.  You had stopped with verse 50,  which doesn’t fully illustrate that fact that even those saved in Christ Jesus, still live in hope of the final transformation of our bodies that will no longer be of earthly flesh, but will instead reflect the brand new heaven and new earth, in which the light of Christ will shine forevermore.  This is the eternal light in which the physical ‘light’ of the sun/moon in Gensis was but a shadow.

Rev 22:5 
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.  


judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: bloodstone on March 20, 2005, 06:12:48 PM
It's not Tyre that is illustrating Satan here, it is the king of babylon that is symbolizing satan, and he comes up upon man who was created perfect and is the judgment of God upon them.

 Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
 8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
 9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

The way you understand this, you have Satan attacking Satan. The King of Babylon attacking the King of Tyrus.


Excellent point. Everyone knows that Satan is spiritually the king of Babylon. We all agree on that, right? The question to you Shoan is this. If the King of Babylon represents Satan, who is this Prince of Tyrus that God brings him against? It cannot also be Satan as you said it was, because then God would be sending the king Satan against the Prince Satan. Obviously then, this is not the proof that this speaks of Satan that you thought it was.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 20, 2005, 10:53:03 PM
Dear dsouzaanthony,
It's so sad that people in this thread call themselves reformed but by the posts that they put to hold on to gen1:26 and gen9:6 in teh way they understand it(literally) doesnt't look like they r spiritual as they deny so many scriptures which prove tha Christ is teh image of God and one can come ito that image only at salvation and look at the reply Judy gives me.she says I am of the track..she herself is off teh track where she is living with assumptions that Adam probably had an eternal soul and so on. and the scriptures she providesis of wrestingscripture and she cllsthis rebellion.I made it clear in my posts that only Christ is Preeminent and not Adam and they all deny this truth...that's blasphemy on their part.

I do agree with what U say that God is not dependant on His creatures actions as His creature can't frustrate his plan by remaining faithful or even a sinner once saved cannot frustrate God by wickedly departing away from Him...that's God Irresistble Grace and His Soverignity.

According to the people in this thread God's salvaion plan is Cyclic...Adam was in teh image of God...sinned so lost the image and then when saved get's that image back but what they fail to realize that in doing so they deny so many scriptures as listed below which proves God's plan is linear and not cyclic: that's how God dealt with His creation

Better is the end  of a thing than the beginning  thereof:…. (Eccl 7:8) 


Eccl. 7:10 teaches that it is unwise to think that the beginning was better than the present.  It is unwise because it is untrue.


Say not thou, What is the cause that the former  days were better than these? for thou dost not inquire wisely concerning this.  (Eccl 7:10) 

In that he saith, A new  covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.  (Heb 8:13)


Though thy beginning was small, yet thy latter end should greatly increase.  For inquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:  (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)  Shall not they teach thee, and tell thee, and utter words out of their heart?  (Job 8:7-10)

[b]Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.  (Isa 9:7)So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:…  (Job 42:12)[/b]

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen. O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.  (Isa 64:4)

What about Eden??“What about Ezekiel 28?”
  While this chapter does describe Satan as the Prince and king of Tyrus, in Eden the garden of God, it does not give any descriptive terms for Eden.  The Bible never describes Eden as “glorious” or as having any superlative quality.  However, Ezekiel chapter 31 does describe the moral condition of Eden.  Ezekiel 31 is a commentary on Genesis 2:8-9.  It develops the true picture of Eden “the garden of God.”  In Ezekiel 31 the phrase “the garden of God” is mentioned three times and the name of the garden as “Eden” is mentioned four times. 

Ezek. 31:9 presents the Garden of Eden as filled with envy.

…all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.  (Ezek. 31:9)

The one they are envying is “the Assyrian” (Satan) who rules over them (verse 3).  Everyone in Eden is headed for Hell. 

….for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.  (Ezek. 31:14)
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his (Satan, the Assyrian's) fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.  They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword;…  (Ezek. 31:16-17)

Thus, despite the prevalence of the high view of Eden, it has no biblical support.  It is a philosophical intrusion.  The picture of an Eden that desperately needs Christ, the Savior, is the one that has biblical support.

If Adam had perfect relationship with teh Father as he was created in teh image of God according to the people arguing in this thread then Jesus lied when He said All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.  (Mat 11:27)

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  (Rom. 5:13) (the Law was given in the garden of eden when God told Adam and Eve not to eat of teh tree of knowledge of good and evil ...before God gave this law to Adam sin was in teh world but not imputed...it was imputed when Adam ate of teh tree God forbade him to)

… for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  (Rom 3:20) 

What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  (Rom 7:7)


Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane,…  (1 Tim. 1:9)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  (Gen. 2:17)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie. he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.  (John 8:44)

The word "beginning" in John 8:44 translates the same Greek word "arché:G746" that God used in John 1:1 in the phrase: "In the beginning (arché) was the Word." By this we know that Satan's whole personality was in opposition to God "from the beginning.".In this context murder does not mean physical killing, it means doing everything possible to prevent the elect from becoming saved.

peace!!
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 21, 2005, 12:55:57 AM
Shoan,

I'm under the impression these people somehow have the impression that God must have applied lesser standard to Adam without realizing that there is no other standard than Christ Himself.  That's how they imagine.  I remember Judy has once mentioned in one of her posts that Adam's flesh was ruled by his spirit but provided no scripture for her argument.  Otherwise, in most of her other posts, she has been very presentable and do acknowledge the grace of God in her immense knowledge of the scriptures.

God Bless,

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 21, 2005, 01:53:36 AM
Quote
I remember Judy has once mentioned in one of her posts that Adam's flesh was ruled by his spirit but provided no scripture for her argument.

dsouzaanthony,

Since you provided no quote, may I assume you are referring to when I said this in my initial post?
"So, we could say that all mankind since Adam is characterized with an eternal spiritual/soul essense, and a fleshly nature.  I believe the difference between Adam before the fall is that his spiritual nature dominated his flesh.  But then, with the fall, he succombed to his flesh. "

If so you're right, I provided no specific Scriptures for this particular statement, because I felt it went without saying that, until Adam's fall, He was in good standing with God, and Scriptures teach that we worship God 'in spirit and in truth'.

Joh 4:24 
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Also, having consider both Sloan's post regarding Ez 28 as well as read Tony's study, I have come to the conclusion that Adam was in view here:

Eze 28:15 
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Among other reasons, (some of which have already been stated Frank Mortimer), there is no creation account in the Bible of angels, and the Bible is principly a book of law concerning God's relationship with man -- not with angels.   I hope this clarifies why I made that statement.  Please let me know directly if I say something that is not substantiated with Scripture or concerns you.

And yes, Sloan has elected not to respond to my last post, but has instead resorted to name calling, -- as most do when they are unable to confront the Scriptures presented to them.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 21, 2005, 03:14:23 AM
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image,in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 1:23 And changed the glory (IMAGE OF GOD) of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Shoan,

If you read all above scriptures, you will know man can only bear the image of God upon regeneration.  Christ is firstborn among many brethren, for He is preeminent.  The image of God is incorruptible (but natural man makes it corruptible by his vain imagination according to Rom 1:23 quoted above) and those who bear God’s image are incorruptible (cannot lose the image of God once given to them at the time of their salvation) as can be proved scripturally:

Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;

Compare to Adam’s handling of serpent and drinking of deadly poison of the serpent in the garden of Eden.  Did he lose God’s image (assuming he was created in God’s image) ?  If yes, then you don’t understand God’s salvation and if no, you say that image of God is corruptible.  See the trouble the people are in when they handle scripture like that?

There is (to my knowledge) no scripture that quotes Adam was perfect before his fall.  The word “Fall” is not in scripture anyway.  Also there is no line of demarcation between pre-fall/post-fall.  This is created in the minds of the people.


Bible makes it very clear in 1Co 15:46 “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.”

This is the principle God follows throughout the scripture.  Read articles written by an author “Israel of God”.  No one objected to them when they applied this principle. 

God Bless

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: bloodstone on March 21, 2005, 03:58:44 AM

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Shoan,

If you read all above scriptures, you will know man can only bear the image of God upon regeneration.

This will be my last reply to you or Sloan because I'm beginning to suspect the both of you. Here we have God saying man was created in God's image, and then your commentary that the scriptures actually mean that man was "not" created in the image of God and we should know that only in regeneration can man bear the image of God. If that's not ridiculous, I don't know what is.

 Jeremiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

It is rebellion against God to teach that he didn't mean what he said. I'm only sorry that you cannot understand that.

 
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: bloodstone on March 21, 2005, 04:11:42 AM
And yes, Sloan has elected not to respond to my last post, but has instead resorted to name calling, -- as most do when they are unable to confront the Scriptures presented to them.

judy


Sloan has elected not to respond to any post with a biblical defense against his "proofs." In fact, Sloan and dsouzaanthony only seem to respond to each other. And with scriptures that have nothing to do with the point of contension. Which should be a dead giveaway to all of us of their motives and agenda. For example, Frank responded to his claims of Ezekiel speaking of Satan with God's word that contradicted it, and as is his trend, he totally ignored it. Except to write dsouzaanthony saying all the same things all over again, he has not addressed anything. Which begs the question, what is the point?


Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 21, 2005, 10:31:46 PM
Dear Judy,

U said:
Also, having consider both Sloan's post regarding Ez 28 as well as read Tony's study, I have come to the conclusion that Adam was in view here:

Eze 28:15 
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Among other reasons, (some of which have already been stated Frank Mortimer), there is no creation account in the Bible of angels, and the Bible is principly a book of law concerning God's relationship with man -- not with angels.   I hope this clarifies why I made that statement.  Please let me know directly if I say something that is not substantiated with Scripture or concerns you.

And yes, Sloan has elected not to respond to my last post, but has instead resorted to name calling, -- as most do when they are unable to confront the Scriptures presented to them.

judy

1st of all my apologies for not replying as I was busy at work and I am only free in teh mornings and life here is very hectic...

Anyway Judy I feel sorry for U that U r not just quoting scriptures which are relevant to the topic and are being judgemental as U are quoting scriptures which speak about Judgement...the only 2 scriptures which U are quoting and holding on to are Gen 1:26 and 9:6 but U are denying so many scriptural proofs which dsouzaanthony provided and even in his last post he has listed so many scriptures which prove the fact that only Christ is teh image of God and we are brought to that image only at regeneration for eg.read Rom 8:29
And please don't be followers of men...who is Tony Warren in front of Scriptures...He can say anything regarding Ezekiel 28 that it's speaking about Adam but in my last post I offered scriptural proof that the verse 12 there which speaks"Thou sealest up the sum(pattern)" only can refer to Satan as Adam is not a deciever who seals the gospel...it's Satan (2Corin 4:4)

Ezekiel28: 16.  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.(multitude of merchandise is false gospel which satan is spreading and trading)

also read verse 18.  Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
 19.  All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


Also if you read in isaiah 14 the message is to the king of babylon but Satan is also mentioned mentioned there just as in ezekiel 28 the message is to teh king of Tyre but Satan is also mentioned there...God addresess both Satan and his man of sin.Isaiah14:.12.  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Pls note that satan is named here as son of the morining and Christ says regarding Himself  Rev 22:16.  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star
so there is no confusion even if satan is called a covering cherub as he is an imitator of Christ and he brings his false gospels and decieves people.

John8:44.  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Also read John 13:27 regarding Judas Now after the piece of bread,Satan entered him.Then Jesus said to him,"What you do,do quickly".   Again satan and his man of sin is addressed.

This should answer Bloodstone as well as if Nebucadnazzer came against Tyre it's not satan comin against satan...it's satan coming to rule over tyre(the corporate church) thru his man of sin king of tyre and satan is not a good master that he wud love the King of Tyre...satan is a master deceiver who even decieves his man whom he works thru to spread false gospel's

and Judy and Bloodstone pls reply to the scriptures that dsouzaanthony and I have posted in our posts ..pls don't beat around teh bush..Come to the point!!!!!

Peace!!!
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 22, 2005, 02:37:56 AM
Quote
Anyway Judy I feel sorry for U that U r not just quoting scriptures which are relevant to the topic and are being judgemental as U are quoting scriptures which speak about Judgement...the only 2 scriptures which U are quoting and holding on to are Gen 1:26 and 9:6 but U are denying so many scriptural proofs which dsouzaanthony provided and even in his last post he has listed so many scriptures which prove the fact that only Christ is teh image of God and we are brought to that image only at regeneration for eg.read Rom 8:29


Sloan,

Are you proposing that we can simply ignore Gen 1:26 & Gen 9:6?  Moreover, there are passages in the NT that testify to the same.  For example these were given by Andreas earlier:

Jam 3:9
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

1Co 11:7 
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.  

Are these not the Word of God also?  If they don’t harmonize with you views, then perhaps you should begin anew, instead of treating any part of God’s Word as though it is of no account.  As such it is you deserving of pity and prayers, because you dare to think you know more than God.

You being up Rom 8:29 which says
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

This thread is not about predestination which no one has denied and has no bearing on this topic.

Quote
And please don't be followers of men...who is Tony Warren in front of Scriptures...He can say anything regarding Ezekiel 28 that it's speaking about Adam but in my last post I offered scriptural proof that the verse 12 there which speaks"Thou sealest up the sum(pattern)" only can refer to Satan as Adam is not a deciever who seals the gospel...it's Satan (2Corin 4:4)

Perhaps you should ask “who is Sloan in front of Scriptures”, for I have never known Tony Warren to ignore or distort any passage of Scripture (as you have done) just to prove he is right.  In any case, the Bible is my authority, not man.

Since Eze is a side issue, and you have been unable to come to grips with the issue at hand, I will leave it at that.


judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 22, 2005, 07:11:05 AM
Dear all,
I think we should better follow the bible fully and not just take one or two verses literally.What is man?Man is a liar which includes me.Let us allow God to show us in his word and let us stop argueing and proving our points.It is Christ who has paid the penalty for our sins not Adam, let us keep this in our minds.Adam was created from dust and dust he returned but Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father with all power and glory.
God bless
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 22, 2005, 10:34:03 PM
Judy You Quoted

Jas 3:9 Therewith <en> <autos> bless we <eulogeo> God <theos>, even <kai> the Father <pater>; and <kai> therewith <en> <autos> curse we <kataraomai> men <anthropos>, which <ho> are made <ginomai> after <kata> the similitude <homoiosis> of God <theos>.

Strongs GreeK word for Which  it means this,the ,that,he she ,it etc...check that for yourself the greek word for which is 'Ho"
3588.  o  ho,  ho
Search for 3588 in KJV
 in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):--the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

The verse simply means that with our tongue we bless God and with the same tongue we curse he/she whom God has made in His image(the elect).

U said:
1Co 11:7 
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.


 Paul is talking to the believer who is in the image of God at regeneration...he is not talking to an unbeliever.

May the Lord open your eyes to see His glory and may the Lord soften Your harderned heart.
Peace!!

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 22, 2005, 10:41:46 PM
Stacia you said Dear all,
I think we should better follow the bible fully and not just take one or two verses literally.What is man?Man is a liar which includes me.Let us allow God to show us in his word and let us stop argueing and proving our points.It is Christ who has paid the penalty for our sins not Adam, let us keep this in our minds.Adam was created from dust and dust he returned but Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father with all power and glory.
God bless


I am not arguing but putting forth a defense to the doctrine of Christ.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Php 1:17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.

Peace!!
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 23, 2005, 01:30:01 AM
Quote
I think we should better follow the bible fully and not just take one or two verses literally.

Shoan,

With the above refrain, you have repeatedly demonstrated a cavalier attitude towards many passages of Scriptures -- (not 1 or 2, which even so would warrant our attention as God's Word).  You don't yet have a sound understanding of the creation account, and you have not been able to provide a satisfactory meaning to any of God's declarations that He created man in His image.  You would rather just brush them aside as "just one or two verses", and insist it can't be so.

Don't be concerned with my heart; examine your own.   I suggest you go back and read all these posts, and until/unless you are able to honestly address each and every discrepancy that has been pointed out to you, you can rest assured you won't come to truth.

This will be my last post to you on this topic.

2Pe 1:20-21
20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.  


judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 23, 2005, 03:14:41 AM
Judy ,
I think U are doing tht by just quoting one or 2 scriptures and the remaing irrelavant to the topic as your understanding is not sound and my prayer to God is that you get hearing ears to hear.You have not replied to so many scriptures postd by dsouzaanthony and me and are just beating around the bush by quoting scriptures from here and there and because you cant reply you are accusing us and being judgmental.

This is my last post to you,I don't wish to speak to people who ignore so many scriptures and give private interpretation of the creation account holding the traditional view .


Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: dsouzaanthony on March 23, 2005, 05:30:02 AM
Shoan,

We have clearly shown from the scriptures that those who have the image of God can't lose their salvation.  Some people on this board believe that Adam lost the image of God through sin and some believe that he still has it by showing Gen 9:6, James 3:9 and 1cor 11:7. But they overrule the context in which these scriptures are given. 

If Adam could lose the image of God thru sin, then what guarantee we who have been regenerated in the image of God can't lose in the future.  This is inconsistency.  Scriptures never teach that.  People are kept blind in their traditions and don't realize the spiritual aspect of Gen Chapter 1.

To those who are really interested to know the truth, I still recommend you to look at a comprehensive study on "doctrines of beginnings" made by Steve Clarke at "www.wordofchrist.net"

Please I don't want any answers from people who don't want to know truth and are comfortable in their positions.

Peace,

DSOUZAANTHONY
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 23, 2005, 11:01:02 AM
Quote
If Adam could lose the image of God thru sin, then what guarantee we who have been regenerated in the image of God can't lose in the future.  This is inconsistency.  Scriptures never teach that.  People are kept blind in their traditions and don't realize the spiritual aspect of Gen Chapter 1.

DSOUZAANTHONY,

At the end, you interject a brand new issue.  Re-read the topic of this thread and how it was introduced, then make note of the words you've added to it.   No one here came even close to saying the things you falsely charge in your last post. We all know that onced saved, you cannot loose your salvation,  which is exactly why no one here claimed Adam was saved at the time of his fall.  Neither has anyone denied the spiritual aspect of Gensis; just the opposite is true where both the spiritual and actual historical account of creation is embraced. 

I suggest you begin anew, by exercising some honesty.  This will be my last post to you as well on this topic.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on March 23, 2005, 11:18:05 AM
dsouzaanothny ...I must call Judy miss judgemental.....she is arguing about things she  doesn't understand and doesn't wish to understand..She is contradicting herself as she says that Adam was created in teh image of God and says Adam was not saved before his fall but still had the image....can she show a single verse which shows how can one have teh image of God without being saved......tha's the language of a rebel.

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on March 25, 2005, 12:06:18 PM
J
Quote
udy and all,
Please log on to www.wordofchrist.net for the doctrines of the beginning.After studying the same please come back to the board and show your views.
Peace

Stacia,  I took a glance at the study (85 pages).  Have not yet read it carefully.  From what I understand, this author is not denying that man was created in God's image (as some here have been doing), but rather addressing misconceptions of what that means.  Namely that it does not mean Adam was saved and lost his salvation (which we all agree to). He also notes (as has been noted already in this thread), that Adam was in need of a Saviour just as we all are.

I haven't yet pinpointed what he thinks the passages in question mean, so much as what they don't mean.  If  he does give an explaination and I missed it, please provide the excerpt.

Overall, from what I've read so far, it appears sound and helps clear up some misconceptions .  My main observation at this point is that the views expressed by Shoan and DSOUZAANTHONY are not representative of this study.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on March 28, 2005, 12:29:47 PM
Dear Judy,
 I urge you to  read the study carefully and then give your suggestion.
Blessings
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Daniel on April 15, 2005, 12:34:09 PM
     Maybe it would help our study if we considered what it means to be "created in the image of God." 
                                                                    Dan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Herman Stowe on April 15, 2005, 02:25:12 PM
     Maybe it would help our study if we considered what it means to be "created in the image of God." 
                                                                    Dan

It would help if people understood what Adam being created in the image of God means, versus re-created, regenerated, reborn in the image of God that we all had happen in the last Adam, Christ. Two entirely different things. And I believe that seems to be the main sticking point between the two groups. One side wants to make them both mean the same thing and is thus denying scripture that we were created in God's image.

 Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".

Perhaps a study of the words "regenerated" or "born again" might help us understand how we in Adam were born with some perfect characteristics or likeness of God and lost something where we had to be recreated in it again in Christ. But let's stop saying that we were not created in the image of God, because that is clearly not true.


Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Herman Stowe on April 15, 2005, 02:35:02 PM
dsouzaanothny ...I must call Judy miss judgemental.....she is arguing about things she  doesn't understand and doesn't wish to understand..She is contradicting herself as she says that Adam was created in teh image of God and says Adam was not saved before his fall but still had the image....can she show a single verse which shows how can one have teh image of God without being saved......tha's the language of a rebel.

Peace!!
Shoan

Calling names is not helpful nor is it a respectful argument. Why is it that it seems whenever someone shows scriptures that contradict another's opinion, they are labeled judgmental? I never could figure that one out. One thing is sure. If scripture says Adam was created in the image of God, then he was. There are no "maybe's" about it.  And if scripture says those who are of Christ have been conformed to the image of God, then it means we were "again" or recreated in the image of God. It just makes sense. Regenerated means a second genesis or creation. Look it up in scripture.

 Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

 Titus 3:6 "Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;"

Why do we have to be re-generated if we were not once originally generated in the image of God? Some here are not really following what is written but instead choose to label people who disagree with their view as judgmental.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 16, 2005, 12:26:23 AM
Herman Stowe,

note that the  scripture you have quoted has already been addressed in this thread by dsouzaanthony and me.You cant just take that verse having Adam in view as we come into the image of God in christ as Christ is the image of God.
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".


The account is spiritual just as God said "Let there be light and there was light"...tell me can you come to a conclusion that God created the sun there without comparing it with other scriptures...Please read 2Corin 4:6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

You cant know what God meant by Let there be light till you compare and understand where God thru apostle Paul reveals the intended meaning of that verse.

Similarly we can't just say Adam was created in the image of God as you quoted unless we compare with other scriptures which reveal that man is brought to the image of God only during salvation.

Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Man(the chosen) was predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ the son of God and hence was not created in the image of God.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust(Adam), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man(Christ).

2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,(Gen 1:26)


Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness

Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new


I have also addressed the word regeneration..the Greek word is  "anakainwsiv,  anakainosis,  an-ak-ah'-ee-no-sis "
In that he saith, A new (kainos:G2537) covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.  (Heb 8:13)

Kainos (new) refers to a genuinely new thing that "cannot be mixed with the old"  (Mk. 2:21-22).

No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new (kainos:G2537) piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.  And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new (kainos:G2537) bottles.  (Mark 2:21-22)

In Col. 3:10, we find kainos as the compound verb anakainoo. 

When kainos, with its forward looking meaning, is combined with the prefix ana, it cannot be translated re new. 

A similar causative sense for compound words with ana can be noticed in anablepsis, "cause to see" (for the first time), anagenao, "cause to be born," anakoino, "cause to lie down," anapauo, "cause to rest," anatello, "cause to rise," anaphaino, "cause to appear," anapsuxis, “cause relief."  Therefore anakainoo does not mean "renew"

It simply means cause to be made new(for the 1st time not renewed Adam)....therefore the scripture is And have put on the new man, which is made new (anakainoo:G341) in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  (Col 3:10) 

Similarly it applies for verse you have qouted born again,regeneration.

Peace!!
Shoan




Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on April 16, 2005, 01:57:41 AM
Quote
quote from Herman:
If scripture says Adam was created in the image of God, then he was. There are no "maybe's" about it.  And if scripture says those who are of Christ have been conformed to the image of God, then it means we were "again" or recreated in the image of God. It just makes sense. Regenerated means a second genesis or creation. Look it up in scripture.

Herman,
I think you've identified the main area of confusion of some who aren't making the proper distinction between re-generation -- (born again), versus what it means to be created in the image of God.  Some still view this as one and the same, when they are not,  for Adam from the start was as much in need of salvation as any man.  The only difference between Adam before the fall, and Adam after the fall, was that he had not yet been tested -- namely he had not yet been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate that he was capable of sin.

Whether we understand this or not, has no bearing on the fact that the Bible declares both things to be true.  We would do well to try and reconcile the two rather than deny either.

I earlier proposed one possibility of what it means to be "created in the image of God".  Namely that it may signify that Adam (and all mankind thereafter), have a soul essence.  This distinguishes man from all other creatures.  The fact that we have a soul or spirit essence makes us unique and like God.   Whereas, the fact that our soul or spirit must be cleansed by God, is what salvation is all about.

Another possible way of looking at this is that Adam, before the fall, only had knowledge of 'Good' (God).  After succumbing to sin and eating of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam allowed evil to enter into his heart/mind.  And the hearts of men ever since have been "desperately wicked".  

Jer 17
9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10  I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

So again, it's the heart (soul/spirit) of man that connects us to God, and by which God may rightly judge after "searching the heart" of every man.  All would be found guilty ("for as in Adam all die") save for the cleansing of the heart/soul/spirit of those chosen before the foundation of the world, by Christ's work of atonement on the cross, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  

In a sense, salvation is like having our spirit replaced with the Spirit of God.  Perhaps it’s also in this sense that we can see that Adam, though created "perfect" (sinless), was not given the gift of salvation (the Holy Spirit) at the time God created him.  So in short, while the spirit of man links him to God, it requires the Holy Spirit to save him.

But let's go back again to the fact that Adam initially had only the knowledge of good, and no knowledge of evil.  In this sense also, he can be regarded as "perfect".  This "knowledge' of good (God)  also seems important in our understanding of what God may have meant when He said He created man in His image.  

Gen 2
7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8  And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. ...
16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3
9  And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10  And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11  And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12  And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. ...

21  Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.  

If Adam (and Eve) had been truly saved at the point of their creation, iniquity would not have been found in their hearts when tested/tempted by the serpent.  I'm again reminded of the study by Tony which illustrates that Adam is in view in this passage:

Eze 28
12  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.  

Did not Adam "corrupt his wisdom" (which was previously only of good/God) by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?  And wasn't Adam thereby cast out of Eden -- away from "God's Holy mountain" and away from the tree of life, onto the ground outside of Eden?

Thus, by having our hearts/soul regenerated by the Holy Spirit, we are again brought into the "the knowledge of God", and we are cleansed from all iniquity by the "covering" of Christ.

Col 1:10  
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;  


Whenever we try to explain something as daunting as being "created in the image of God", I recognize that there are aspects we may never fully understand and should approach humbly.  By offering these additional thoughts, possibilities and Scriptures, it helps me to reconcile these seemingly contradictory concepts of Adam being made "perfect" and in the image of God; while on the other hand, succumbing to sin when tested, and thereby demonstrating his need of a salvation.  

I think we have to recognize, as Herman indicated in his post, that there is a difference between being in state of sinlessness versus salvation.  Perhaps an imperfect example would be a baby who is not yet saved, and for a period gives no outward  signs of sin, but is as desperately in need of salvation as the vilest adult -- for a miss is a good as a mile as far as God's laws are concerned -- laws that he began to established from the start in the Garden of Eden.  

It becomes more difficult to reconciling these concepts, if we endow Adam with qualities he never had, and/or try to equate “perfection” with “salvation”.

I hope this helps the studies of others, although I feel this just scratches the surface and I don't claim to know the answers,

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 16, 2005, 02:26:20 AM
Eze 28
12  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold t


The above scriptures are referring to Satan and not Adam and if it refers to Adam...poor Adam is lost forever as God is going to lay him down to the ground(never to be resurrected which means no salvation) and he will be layed before kings(the elect are kings and priests in the kingdom of God that they may behold Adam as lost)....this is the confusion that is brought by men replacing Adam when God is talking about Satan who will be laid to the ground (under the wrath of God forever)

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on April 16, 2005, 03:10:15 AM
Eze 28
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold t


The above scriptures are referring to Satan and not Adam and if it refers to Adam...poor Adam is lost forever as God is going to lay him down to the ground(never to be resurrected which means no salvation) and he will be layed before kings(the elect are kings and priests in the kingdom of God that they may behold Adam as lost)....this is the confusion that is brought by men replacing Adam when God is talking about Satan who will be laid to the ground (under the wrath of God forever)

Peace!!
Shoan

Shoan,

Eze 28 is secondary to this thread.  Regardless of whether that passage refers to Adam or Satan, the focal point of this discussion is what God meant when He said that man was created in His image.  You still haven't come up with a plausible meaning -- denial is not an option.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 16, 2005, 06:00:57 AM
>>>
Perhaps a study of the words "regenerated" or "born again" might help us understand how we in Adam were born with some perfect characteristics or likeness of God and lost something where we had to be recreated in it again in Christ. But let's stop saying that we were not created in the image of God, because that is clearly not true.
<<<

And all God's people said, AMEN!

You are exactly right. Christ regenerated, or literally "generated again," what was lost in Adam's transgression. Man's righteousness before God. Regeneration means a spiritual renovation or Messianic restoration to sinlessness. And unlike in Adam, with the second Adam, Christ, it can never be lost again. The question is, Man is restored to what? When we answer that, we have our answer. If we are actually seeking it and not self-justification.

Isaiah 1:25-26

The restoration is unto righteousness, the righteousness which man had at the beginning, and which he lost in the first Adam. And that restoration can "ONLY" occur in Christ. It's not in an earthly nation Israel, and it's not in physical grandeur of people, it's in Christ. In Him alone are we "conformed again" to the image of God. In the Second Adam are we regenerated in Christ and recover what the first Adam lost. ..which was perfection before God, lost by his "FIRST" sin! The doctrine of original sin is at stake here, and unfortunately, not everyone comprehends it's necessity or importance in Christianity.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 16, 2005, 06:12:18 AM
>>>
Herman Stowe,

note that the  scripture you have quoted has already been addressed in this thread by dsouzaanthony and me.You cant just take that verse having Adam in view as we come into the image of God in christ as Christ is the image of God.
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".


The account is spiritual just as God said "Let there be light and there was light"...tell me can you come to a conclusion that God created the sun there without comparing it with other scriptures.
<<<


What are you talking about? When God said let there be light, there was "VERY LITERAL LIGHT."  The fact that it has spiritual significance also is not the question, nor does it negate creation of light on the earth. That God said Adam was created in the image of God is a "VERY LITERAL" statement. Once one starts spiritualizing without Biblical warrant, the whole Bible becomes subject to man's own personal opinions or private interpretations. What's to stop me from saying the first sin was spiritual? Or that God clothed Adam and eve with skins was also just spiritual and thety were never really naked. No, it was very LITERAL, though it most certainly has a spiritual application. There is nothing in scripture that would have us think we should believe anything different. And man's added conclusions and private interpretations of what God said is not the Christian's authority. What is actually written there is accurate and authoritative.


Quote
>>>
A similar causative sense for compound words with ana can be noticed in anablepsis, "cause to see" (for the first time), anagenao, "cause to be born," anakoino, "cause to lie down," anapauo, "cause to rest," anatello, "cause to rise," anaphaino, "cause to appear," anapsuxis, “cause relief."  Therefore anakainoo does not mean "renew"

It simply means cause to be made new(for the 1st time not renewed Adam)....therefore the scripture is And have put on the new man, which is made new (anakainoo:G341) in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  (Col 3:10) 

Similarly it applies for verse you have qouted born again,regeneration.

Peace!!
Shoan
<<<


Lord save us from the plague of wanna-be Greek experts! This is complete and utter Nonsense obviously devised to confound someone who doesn't know any better. It's nothing but abstruse babbling to deceive the hearts of the simple. The fact is, regeneration means "created again." And it's not even that complicated. The Greek word translated regeneration is [palingenesia] and means exactly that. It's from two words, [palin], meaning "again" and "genesis" meaning creation. It's where Christians got the phrase "born again." There is no AMBIGUITY in the word regeneration. And the root word from which the Greek word comes, means to restore or renew. Which any "real" expert in the the Greek will most assuredly tell you.

Hebrews 6:6

See that word translated "renew?" It's [anakainizo] and it's root is the same root word from which the word Regeneration comes from, meaning to RENEW. But we can play the, "I'm a better Greek Interpreter than you," all day long, and it solves nothing. I'm not going to do the "Deueling verb tenses and nuances" with you. "Been there, done that!"  It is an exercise in futility.  This "tactic" is very typical of those who cannot refute plain scripture, and so must resort to convoluting and twisting it instead. If I had a dime for all the "wanna-be" Greek experts that completely adulterated the Greek for their own vain and selfish purposes, I'd have a stack ten feet high.

So, show from the scriptures where God says man was not created in the image of God. If you can. Can you? ..I doubt it! Because that would make God a liar because I can show you where God's unambiguously said that Adam was created in God's image. So again, the question always comes back to the same thing every time. "Who do we believe, God or man?" That is the pertinent question here.

Romans 3:4

Man was created in the image of God (according to God), and chosen man was regenerated in the image of God through Christ. Man was perfect in the Garden of Eden before he sinned, and man is made perfect again through Christ. Man was the first Adam, Christ the second Adam for the express purpose of restoration.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 16, 2005, 06:42:54 AM
>>>
As for three verses that have been mentioned to prove that ALL men were created in the image of God, let me add: 

Ro. 8:29 - whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand also to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the Firstborn among many brethren

This verse does not say that all men are conformed to the image of Christ.  It in fact shows that only those whom are foreknown will be. 
<<<


Sorry Sandy, this is "Straw Man" number one! No one said that all men are conformed to the image of God. In point of fact, I think we all deny that all men are conformed to the image of God. So let's not go there. The real fact is, in order for the elect to be conformed to the image of God, it must mean that they "CANNOT" be in the image of God presently.

God said Adam was created in the image of God, not that man still is. Thus somewhere along the line, Adam our federal headship, lost the image of God that he was created in, and we from his fall no longer have it. And of course, this is "PRECISELY WHY" the Elect has to be conformed to the image of God. Because in Adam, they lost that image of God they were created in. They lost the righteousness (being without sin) that Adam clearly possessed until he sinned. ...where's the mystery?

That man (Adam) was the figure of the second Adam, Christ, is not contested. That Adam was not created in the image of God, is contested. Because it's not true, according to the Bible.


Quote
>>>
1 Co. 11:7 - For a man, indeed, possessing the image and glory of God ought not to have the head covered. 

Neither does this verse tell us that ALL men possess the image of God.  It tells us that the man who does possess the image and glory of God represents his Head--Christ--Who is the Image and Glory of God.  It also uses the singular "a man" not All men.
<<<

And this is "Straw Man" number two! Again, no one is postulating that all men are in the image of God. You are making the typical argument against a straw man, and it has no merit whatsoever. Because we all agree with you. Believers are conformed to the image of God, and they are the only ones conformed to the image of God. That has "nothing" to do with Adam being created in the image of God. ...which he very UNAMBIGUOUSLY was.

Genesis 1:26
Christ was not man made in God's image, Christ was God made in man's image. So obviously, when God spoke here in the beginning, He is speaking about a very LITERAL man at that time (Adam), and his very LITERAL creation at that time, and how it was in the very image of God. As much as you might like, you cannot simply toss certain passages out the window because they don't agree with man's philosophy. All scripture has to be harmonized and taken in conjunction with all other scripture. Not "set apart" from it or denied.

Genesis 1:27
It is a "stretch" of the highest order to declare that God was not speaking about Adam and Eve. These scripture "MUST" be true, and man's understanding that Adam was not created in the image of God must be in error. Else we have confusion, wresting and adulteration. Adam was created in the likeness of God because He was created in the characteristics of God. He was created without sin, having reason, and the inherent attributes of God that sets him apart from animals. And this is why God gave him dominion over the earth and everything in it when He made this statement. There was no fault found in man, he was perfect from the day he was created until the day he sinned.


Quote
>>>
James 3:9 - With it we are blessing the Lord and Father, and with it we are cursing men who have come to be in accord with God's likeness.

Finally, this verse does not say all men possess the likeness of God.  Rather it speaks to those in the Church who are using their tongues to bless God, and also using their tongues to curse those men who have become the likeness of God.  In other words those who have become saved. 
<<<

And of course, this is "Straw Man" number three! I hope you have read that 85 page article better than you've read this 6 page thread. Because I haven't said that all men are in the image of God now. In fact, I have said just what this verse very plainly says. That those who have come to be in accord with God's likeness, are those who have been conformed to the image of Christ. Those who are not saved are not conformed to the image of Christ. And I don't need 85 pages to tell me that either. It's demonstrated in a couple "Bible Passages" and cannot be denied. But what can be, and is denied, is that Adam was not created in the image of God. Because, thus saith the scriptures.

Romans 3:4
Again, I don't need 85 pages to tell me Adam was not created in the image of God, because God's word is the truth, and He said that Adam was. And He said it unambiguously! Therefore, any man who contradicts His word, of necessity, is the liar, while God is true.  I have never found one single statement in God's word that "somehow" wasn't true. Therefore, Adam was created in the image of God and was perfectly righteous before him until the day he committed man's first sin.


Quote
>>>
Before you reject this study outright, as being unworthy of consideration, I suggest you give it the due diligence it rightly deserves.  Judge for yourself whether it has merit, but don't simply cast it aside and then act as though it has no value.  I am not telling you that everything in it aligns perfectly, and can be proven through Scripture, just that you should at least search it out before condemning it as unbiblical. 

Sandy   
<<<

I can tell you that about 70 percent of the articles I read have "some" merit. But that doesn't mean that what they are postulating is overall true, or even that it is not unbiblical. Preterism has some truth in it, but it's not accurate,harmoneous or consistent, so it's unbiblical. Postmillennialism has truth in it, but it's not biblical either. Even Roman Catholicism has a lot of truth in some articles, but that doesn't mean their overall position is sound.

And you simply cannot get around the giant box that is Adam was created in the image of God. We can try sneaking in the window, going in the back door, or the side door, but the fact remains, "God created Adam in his own image." And the Adam in view was not Christ. Christ was not created in the image of God, He was God created in the image of man. So what Adam was created in the image of God? The very LITERAL Adam was, and he sinned and lost that perfect righteousness, and came under the penalty of death wherein the only solution was his "regeneration" in the second Adam, Christ. That is the only way man is "restored," "Renewed," "born again," "Regenerated," "recreated" in the image of God.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kenneth White on April 16, 2005, 02:08:33 PM
As for three verses that have been mentioned to prove that ALL men were created in the image of God


All men weren't created in the image of God, Adam was. But that image was marred by Adam's sin, and that marring was passed down to all men.


Quote
Before you reject this study outright, as being unworthy of consideration, I suggest you give it the due diligence it rightly deserves.  Judge for yourself whether it has merit, but don't simply cast it aside and then act as though it has no value.  I am not telling you that everything in it aligns perfectly, and can be proven through Scripture, just that you should at least search it out before condemning it as unbiblical. 

Sandy   

What makes you think that no one has read this but you? Is it that hard to believe that we have read it and simply disagree with it's main "conclusion," but not it's scriptures and many of it's statements? There is a difference between making a lot of biblical statements, and coming to an unbiblical "conclusion." The statements don't mean the conclusion is correct. What we are saying is that the "conclusion" that Adam was not created in God's image is incorrect.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kenneth White on April 16, 2005, 02:12:47 PM
Similarly it applies for verse you have qouted born again,regeneration.

Peace!!
Shoan

Lord save us from the plague of wanna-be Greek experts! This is complete and utter Nonsense


You mean you are not impressed?   ;)  Amen Tony. My concordance/interlinear leaves no doubt about the original Greek. It says that the Greek word for regeneration comes from palin, which means "anew" or "once more," and genesis, which means "nativity" or "birth." So you are absolutely correct, it means a re-birth (not a new birth) or re-creation. We are recreated in a state of righteousness in Christ.

Matthew 12:12-13
 "How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other."

As you say, here is the "restoration" symbolized by Christ. It is a figure of restoring something to it's "previous state." In other words, being healed or made whole is equivalent to being returned to righteousness again (without sin). As was man in the garden before he sinned.

 Without Sin = Righteousness

Before Adam sinned, he was without sin. That is the orthodox reformed position of original sin upon which the truth of the gospel hangs.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on April 16, 2005, 04:04:47 PM
Tony,

I truly appreciate the time and effort you give of yourself in this forum.  I didn't mean to present straw men arguments, and you are right, had I really taken the time to carefully read this entire thread, I may have realized the point I made had already been made.  Two things troubled me about this 85 page article, one, as you have clearly pointed out, is that the Bible does indeed unambiguously state that Adam was created in the image of God.  If he was, then he wasn't...well then something happened.  Either he fell through transgression, and lost it, or he never lost that image at all i.e.he never fell, never sinned???

The second was the opinion that Ezekiel 28:14 speaks of Satan as the anointed cherub.  I'm pretty sure that you and I agree that angels, fallen or otherwise are not referred to as cherubim.  I have spent a great amount of time studying your article about cherubim.  Thank you too for the solid, biblically supported articles you have given us. 

Since I have great respect for your wisdom and insight into biblical understanding I am trusting you, as a sincere son of God to guide me on this topic.  I thank God for people like you, and John, and so many others in this community.  Mt. Retreat has become my shining beacon of True Light and for that I praise, and thank God for all of you and it. 

Sandy   

     
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 17, 2005, 01:01:15 AM
Tony,
You missed out on so many scriptures posted by me and dsouzaanthony regarding this topic and have not replied to even one except for Gen1:26 where you say God is speaking about Adam being created in the image of God.

Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son (not even Adam)except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.You make Jesus a liar as if Adam had the image of God which is Jesus Christ then he he would know the Father and the Son which means he would have never sinned.

Ro 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

Where did the sin come from in this world ??.....In the Garden of Eden when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that was the law and sinful nature was already in Adam which came to light through the law.

It was only Christ who was perfect and sinless that when He(Christ) was tested His divine nature in Him was manifested with the temptation.Christ is the image of God

2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
 Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


 Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

By comapring Adam to Christ as being sinless perfect and in perfect relationship with the Father you are blaspeming Christ who is the only One who has a perfect relationship with the Father.

When God said Let there be light,He was not creating the Light He was bringing forth the Light(Christ) who already existed.If you think that is Literal light then you don't have hearing ears and need to pray to God that he would give you.You mean to say Paul is wasting his time by saying in 2Corin4:6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

Joh 8:12 ¶ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters..

Where did this earth come from which was void and on which was darkness and where did these waters come from before even God creating anything...These are spiritual pictures to show that this earth and the waters (symbolic for people) are in darkness without the Light who is Christ..(Christ is pre-eminent and not Adam)...I don't deny the fact that God created a literal universe but in the creation account God is preaching the Gospel that the creation He is He is creating is formless and void and full of darkness without the Light Christ.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly


Man is only brought to the image of God at salvation....and for your kind information I wasn't trying to be a Greek expert but was just showing what the inteded meaning of those verses mean.If you are right then God is a liar... Ro 3:4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

You forgot 2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation(not renewed creation); old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.(not renewed creation).

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace

Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
If God had created Adam in His image and restores us into that image in Christ then why would He create new heavens and the new earth for His children...He could have kept His renewed man in His renewed earth.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells

Re 21:1 ¶ Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea

Re 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
(NKJV)

1Co 2:9 But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
(NKJV)


God plan is not cyclic but it is linear..it's new and not renew.

 Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren

You forgot the word firstborn among many brethren  in Ro 8:29..that means only Christ is the image  of God and brings His brethren(the elect) into that image when they are saved which includes Adam as God saved
him after he sinned and rebelled but not that Adam had the image before the fall ..This is the doctrine of pre-eminence of Christ

You need to be humbling before the  scriptures but you always try to prove you are right and that you know everything but what you are trying to defend is baseless and misinterpretaion of scriptures including Ezekiel 28 where God speaks about Satan and you say it's Adam...If you are right then Adam is lost as those verses say that God will lay him to the ground(under the wrath of God) and make him a spectacle to the kings of the earth(the elect).

The words "anointed", "cherub" and "covereth" (Hebrew originals) always refer to God except in Ezek. 28:14. Also the precious stones in vs. 13 approximate, but differ in significant respects, the High Priest's breastplate. Thus we are dealing with an entity in Ezek. 28 that looks a whole lot like Christ -- but isn't.

>A key is the phrase "sealest up the sum."

Evidence for Satan being in view in Ezek. 28 is from Ezek. 43:11. As you know the temple (and the tabernacle before it) was built according to a *pattern* in heaven with God. God showed it (Christ crucified the outworking of the gospel through His work/faith) to Moses who copied it in the construction of the tabernacle and to David who passed it along to his son, Solomon, who ordered the building of the temple after it. The pattern was spiritual and resided with God and provided salvation in accordance with the elective program. The temple was an earthy copy that pointed to the pattern, but did not itself save anyone. The original pattern is the true gospel of Christ crucified and resides with God in heaven.

O.K. now look at Ezek. 43:10-12. The context beginning with Ezek. 43:1 and following is very important to have in mind. The glory of the Lord comes from the East and fills the house of God. Then God instructs Ezekiel to show the house which is full of the glory of God to the house of Israel so that they will be ashamed of their iniquities. AND they are told to measure the pattern (tokniyth:H8508). As we see from the next verse (vs. 11) this is the pattern of the spiritual temple. Several things are really interesting here:

1. Tokniyth, the word for pattern is only used twice in the Hebrew OT. This really important word is used by God in just two places -- here in Ezek. 43:10 AND in Ezek. 28:12 where it is mistranslated "sum." The context of Ezek. 43:11 clearly confirms that the translation of tokniyth closest to God's usage is "pattern." Also in Ezek. 28:12 "sealest" is chatham which in Dan. 12:4 and 9 means "prevent from coming out," "seal" so that no one can see it until God allows them to. So in Ezek. 28:12 what Satan does is suppress the gospel so it is sealed up from view. "Sum" is rejected as incorrect and "pattern" (in the spiritual, true gospel sense) becomes the preferred translation. Together with the correct biblical understanding of chatham (sealed), this puts a whole new light on Ezek. 28:12 and makes it additional evidence that Satan is in view.


Consider the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Tradition would have it that Adam by using his supposed free will could have (by resisting temptation) rendered the Lamb's purposed sacrifice and love for the elect both superfluous and irrelevant. Did the purposes of God to display His mercy and love really run the risk of being blocked by the actions of the creature? Did Adam really possess so much power that he could either instigate God's salvation plan by rebelling or render it superfluous by remaining faithful?


Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sandy on April 17, 2005, 05:15:51 AM
Tony,

After reflecting on my last post, I wanted to clarify my comments.  I did not mean to imply that I or anyone else should blindly follow you because you have proven to possess great biblical understanding.  What I should have said was that I need to look at these things bearing in mind the points you have made.

1.  Scriptures unambigous language...Adam made in the image of God.
2.  Since cherub is a symbolic figure representing attributes, and glory of God, Satan does not fit.  So there is only one who could fit the description given us in Ezekiel.  Who, since it cannot be Satan, is said to be "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee?"

I trust this will put yours, and all others minds as ease.  I will try not to simply follow, but I will also try to remain open enough that I may be gently led in the right direction.  Again, thank you for all the help you have given me as I attempt to learn more about our Lord through diligent study.

Sandy 
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 17, 2005, 10:38:32 AM
>>>
I truly appreciate the time and effort you give of yourself in this forum.  I didn't mean to present straw men arguments,

I trust this will put yours, and all others minds as ease.
<<<

Sandy, it's no problem. We all have feet of clay, including myself. My comments to you came off a little stronger than intended, I hope you are not offended by it. I type in a rush because of time constraints and if I don't re-read what I typed, that often lends itself to posts that sound hostile that are not intended to be. Especially when I bold out something for emphasis, like "Stawman."

Concerning your valid comment about there being truth in this teaching, I've found that there's always free cheese in a mouse trap. But their starting point is assumption, and that leads to their conclusion that man was not created in the image of God. This is backward and flawed. Their starting point should be that "Man was created in the image of God," and then go from there. Then their conclusions would have to be in harmony and consistent with God's word, rather than an offense to it.

As for my knowledge or insights, I go with the old adage that, "It's amazing how much you've got to know before you learn how little you know." That's me. I know enough to know that I don't know anything in the big scheme of things. But I thank God for the knowledge that he has given.

And appreciate your very charitable comments.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 17, 2005, 11:36:30 AM
>>>
Tony,
You missed out on so many scriptures posted by me and dsouzaanthony regarding this topic and have not replied to even one except for Gen1:26
<<<

dsouzaanthony must speak for himself, unless you are one and the same. That way he won't have to deny something you said, or you something he said. As far as I know you are two separate individuals with your own personal beliefs. I don't want to confuse what you say with what he says, and vice versa.

No, I didn't miss out on them. I don't have the time, nor feel the need to comment on every single post made on this forum. Especially when I'm busy or others are addressing the issues. And I've certainly heard all this before, since it's not an original thought. I pop in now because I have a little free time. I might just as quickly pop out again.


Quote
>>>
..Gen1:26 where you say God is speaking about Adam being created in the image of God.
<<<

I say? Me thinks that you are confusing me with God. I didn't say anything, I simply bear witness to the "whole" testimony of God, in harmony with itself, rather than a few select verses.

Genesis 1:26-29

One must resort to all sorts of exegetical and hermeneutical gymnastics in order not to see that God is plainly speaking of Adam. When the text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual, historical fashion, there can be no other conclusion. The word of God is the anchor of our faith, and it's static. It's not something that can be shifted around spiritually to conform to our own theories or ideas. When it says something, it means what it says. i.e., when God said Christ healed the sick, then He very LITERALLY healed the sick, but that didn't mean that the healing didn't have a very spiritual application. Your basic logic is flawed and your assumptions Biblically untenable. Thus your conclusions are misguided.


Quote
>>>
You make Jesus a liar as if Adam had the image of God which is Jesus Christ then he he would know the Father and the Son which means he would have never sinned.
<<<

Once again, that is "your conclusion," not something that is a biblical principle. Nowhere does God use the words "created perfect" to only apply to Jesus Christ. You keep making statements as if they are written in stone, but they will not stand in light of the scriptures. And they won't stand the test of sound biblical reasoning either. This can very easily be proved if we just open our minds and not look at scripture with tunnel vision. e.g.

Ezekiel 28:15

The very fact that Whoever God is talking about was clearly created PERFECT, and yet God very clearly says that he/it/they fell into sin, blows your whole theory of Christ being the only one perfect right out of the water. Perfect means sinless, not deity. You see, this is what I/We have been trying to tell you. Your definition of perfect is not always God's definition of perfect. i.e., something created "perfect" was clearly not Christ, yet it was clearly perfect, and could sin, and indeed did sin! How can you even formulate an argument against this? It's undeniable! It's the "unadulterated" word of God. So at the very least, your whole theory that because he was created perfect, must mean Christ, is automatically undeniably wrong!


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>>>
Where did the sin come from in this world ??.....In the Garden of Eden when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that was the law and sinful nature was already in Adam which came to light through the law.
<<<

No, without the law written on man's heart (a characteristic of God's likeness in man) there can be no sin. For sin comes only when there is a breaking of God's law. Before God said "don't eat," there was no law, thus no sin imputed to Adam. Once God said don't eat, then Adam eating would be sin (breaking the law) to him.

1st John 3:4

Without transgression of the law, there is no sin imputed to man. When the law came, when God said don't eat of that tree, "then" there was sin imputed to Adam when he did eat.

Again, this is the denial of the doctrine of original sin which stained mankind in Adam, which is essentially a denial of the gospel of Christ. If in fact sin was already in Adam before the fall, then there was no original sin, which was this eating, and thus no real fall into death. Then Adam was already fallen and the Bible is playing games with us declaring that death came by "that sin" of Adam. God Forbid! So who are we to believe? Man, or the word of God?

Genesis 2:17
Romans 5:12
1st Corinthians 15:21-22

It's like you are trying desperately to construct a picture puzzle, but you are determined not to use "all of the pieces" in the box. The problem with that is, you get a picture that fits in some places, but the picture you are seeing is not the "complete" picture. e.g.

Matthew 4:6-7

Not that I'm equating you to Satan, I'm using this as an example. Satan had some pieces to the picture but not all. So when he gives his picture, based on the few pieces that he has chosen to show, Christ corrects him by telling him there are more pieces than what he has used. He says that, "it is written again (more)." In other words, there is more God has written beside the verse Satan produced for Christ. i.e., we have to take the whole word of God in harmony with these other words of God, in order to come to "correct" conclusions. ie.e., yes God has his messengers uphold us, but no that doesn't mean we can tempt the Lord God.


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>>>
It was only Christ who was perfect and sinless that when He(Christ) was tested His divine nature in Him was manifested with the temptation.Christ is the image of God
<<<

It was not only Christ who was perfect (according to scripture). That makes no sense! If it was only Christ who can be perfect, then "who is" Ezekiel 28:15 talking about? Quite obviously, you do err in your assumption that only Christ was spoken of as perfect. was He perfect until iniquity was found in Him? No. Your erroneous assumptions is why you are wrong in your conclusions. If your foundation is not built solidly upon the Rock of the word of God (in its entirety), then your house will not stand when the rains come and the winds blow (Matthew 7:27).


Quote
>>>
By comparing Adam to Christ as being sinless perfect and in perfect relationship with the Father you are blaspeming Christ who is the only One who has a perfect relationship with the Father.
<<<

Again, Is God in Ezekiel 28:15 equating the king of Tyrus as he that was created perfect until he sinned blaspheming Himself? Of course not. So then, the problem is not the word of God, or man being created perfect, the problem is man's personal opinions and private interpretation "of" what created perfect "MUST" mean. The truth is, besides Christ's perfection, God speaks of other created perfection that has since fallen into sin. This cannot be Christ and more importantly, cannot be denied. ..at least not Righteously!


Quote
>>>
When God said Let there be light,He was not creating the Light He was bringing forth the Light(Christ) who already existed.
<<<

He was creating Christ "that already existed?" ...Huh? ? ?  He was not creating the light, He was creating Christ who represents light? That's your "private interpretation," but it is not borne out in the Biblical record.

Genesis 1:3-5

Again, when the Bible text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual sense, we see God is clearly creating very LITERAL Light, and establishing very LITERAL days and nights, a separation of both. Days and nights which He consequently made permanent by placing a Very LITERAL sun in the very LITERAL heavens that the very LITERAL earth would revolve around. You know, things that very LITERALLY exist today? That all these things have spiritual significance is not in debate, your private interpretations that God did not create literal light and literally divide it from the darkness is what is at issue. Was Christ once not divided from the darkness? Because you've given no Biblical proofof any of these things. Only scriptures that you "interpret" to mean that, this is the case. But truth is not built upon conjecture.


Quote
>>>
If you think that is Literal light then you don't have hearing ears and need to pray to God that he would give you.
<<<

OK, that's your judgment. My stance is that without biblical proof, it's all just your unproven and unbiblical theories.


Quote
>>>
Joh 8:12 ¦ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

       ---- Straw Man Arguments Snipped ---

<<<

No one denies that Christ is the light of the world. That clearly does not "negate" the Sun being the light of the world also. Christ was not created by God saying, let there be Light. God did not see the christ that he created was good and then divided "that" light from the darkness. You talk a good game, but the proof is nowhere to be found. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error.


Quote
>>>
Man is only brought to the image of God at salvation....and for your kind information I wasn't trying to be a Greek expert but was just showing what the inteded meaning of those verses mean.
<<<

Unfortunately, you're being disingenuous. No, what you were "really" doing was deliberately wresting or twisting the word "regeneration" in an ostentatious manner so that it would appear by superfluous language that you did a very learned study and it's meaning was new. I guess you thought that if you spoke in a pedantic manner, no one would bother to check what you said to see if it really was accurate. I'm sorry to say, it wasn't!

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
The word of God is for instruction and correction. So if the correct definition of the word regeneration doesn't fit into your own personal interpretation, I'm sorry. But I make no apologies for bringing to light the sleight of hand tactics. Being Re-Created or Re-Born or Re-Generated (not generated) in Christ didn't fit your teaching of NEW, and so you feigned that regeneration didn't really mean re-generation. Unless of course, you "really" didn't know? Then I would offer my apologies.


Quote
>>>
You forgot 2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation(not renewed creation); old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
<<<

I didn't forget it. But unlike you, I take "all" of scripture into consideration, and harmonize it together. In other words, both Scriptures are absolutely true. Now you have to find out "how" they both are true, rather than simply deny hat one can be true if the other is. As indeed you did with the TRUTH that Man was created in the image of God. And this is your major flaw. A failure to harmonize all scripture as truth.

For example, Christ came to bring Peace, and yet Christ came not to bring peace. Scripture (God's inerrant word) says both! Is there a contradiction? Some would say so, and teach we should believe one and not the other. But the TRUTH is, both statements are true. The problem is that people do not compare Scripture with Scripture to harmonize Scripture with itself.

So did God say let there be light and there was LITERAL light? Yes! But is Christ the light of the world? Also Yes! Was Christ created when God made the earth, planets and heavens? No! The point being bad assumptions make for bad conclusions. Indeed Scripture says Christ was the Creator of all things, not the created.


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>>>
You forgot the word firstborn among many brethren  in Ro 8:29..that means only Christ is the image  of God and brings His brethren(the elect) into that image when they are saved
<<<

"Straw Man!" We all know (and believe) Christ is the firstborn from the dead. What does that have to do with anything? Christ never lost the image of God that he had to restore it, MAN is the one who had to be restored to the image of God. That does not mean the word perfect only refers to Christ, or the word regeneration does not mean regeneration, or that the word restore does not really mean restore.


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>>>
You need to be humbling before the  scriptures but you always try to prove you are right and that you know everything..
<<<

Actually true humility is in bringing ourselves into subjection to the authority of the word. You know, like when it says man was created in the image of God? Like when it says something was created perfect in the garden of Eden, and fell into sin? And I try to prove that the scriptures are right, not myself. I have feet of clay like everyone else, but the witness of the word is perfect, true and trustworthy and not subject to man's private interpretations. Like when it says "man was created in the image of God." Unfortunately, there are many many many people today who are offended by scripture that contradicts them, and so they cannot abide the witness of it. Humility is as humility does.

Psalms 25:9-10

Humility is in the eye of the beholder, and my beholder is God alone. Meekness is determined by the sovereign providence of the Lord. Is there humility in denying God created Adam in the image of Himself, or is there pride, arrogance and denial of what is written. The Lord Judge. I am comfortable with that.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on April 17, 2005, 02:43:37 PM
Quote
Quote from Shoan
It was only Christ who was perfect and sinless that when He(Christ) was tested His divine nature in Him was manifested with the temptation.Christ is the image of God

Shoan,

In conjunction with Tony's typically excellent reply, please recall that earlier in this thread Scriptures were given regarding Job, who was also spoken of as "perfect"...

Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.  

The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".


There is also ithis passage in Job which on the surface may seem contradictory, but seems to actually be saying that only God, and God alone can ascribe "perfection".  If man vainly ascribes perfection to himself, such vanity & pride leads to destruction, as can be seen in the fall of men from Adam onward.

Job 9
20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
21  Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
22  This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.  


Then there is this passage in Job that speaks of knowledge of God which, as noted in an earlier post, also appears to be linked to what God means when He refers to "perfect".  It also shows what our right response should be -- namely recognizing that all "good" wisdom and ultimate perfection (salvation) is of the Lord, and Him alone:

Job 36
I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
4  For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.  


Shoan, you must realize that you contradict yourself when you say only Christ is referred to as "perfect" in the Scriptures.  You not only contradict yourself on this main issue, but as Tony noted, according to your flawed logic, Ez 28 would refer to Christ, which of course even you know cannot be so.

Ez 28
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Perhaps, having been shown where your interpretations fall short, you will show half the humility of Sandy when she recognized her need to not be so readily influenced by others, but to instead take time to check things out in the Bible for herself.  (I can identify with Sandy because I've had the same experience, as I'm sure others have had).

Just who is your final authority?  The Scriptures or the vain babblings of men?

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on April 17, 2005, 03:28:00 PM
Quote
  Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Wouldn't Job be considered perfect because he is 'in Christ' who is perfect.  Aren't all believers considered perfect 'in Christ?'  And don't all and ONLY believers fear God and eschew evil?  I don't think Job was considered perfect because he feared God & eschewed evil, but he feared God & eschewed evil because he was perfect (in his savior Jesus Christ).

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal. 3:3

No one is perfect in the flesh, -apart from Christ.  And we are perfect only because Christ's perfection and righteousness is imputed to us.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.  Col. 1:28

Quote
Job 9
20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
21  Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
22  This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Wouldn't the description in the scriptures above be describing a man outside of Christ?  Maybe one who considers himself perfect outside of Christ.

I'm not arguing for or against man being made in the image of God here, just speculating about the only way man can be perfect.  I don't see that there is any other kind of perfection in fallen man apart from Christ.

Just my 2 cents,
Carol
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 17, 2005, 04:02:54 PM
>>>
I'm not arguing for or against man being made in the image of God here, just speculating about the only way man can be perfect.  I don't see that there is any other kind of perfection in fallen man apart from Christ.

Just my 2 cents,
Carol
<<<

Again. Maybe I'm just dense here and just not getting it. Which is very possible. But to my knowledge, no one is arguing for perfection in "fallen" man. So why does this bug-a-boo keep coming up "as if" someone has argued for it? Who is this that believes such things? Certainly no one I've read in this thread. But am I missing something? I don't see fallen man having perfection apart from Christ either. Who does?

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Carol on April 17, 2005, 05:44:28 PM
Quote
The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Sorry Tony, I was replying to Judy's statement above.  I'm probably the dense one here, but it sounded to me like she was saying there might be some other type of perfection than being in Christ (and maybe Job had it), since it is believed that Adam was perfect before he fell.

As I said, sorry if I misunderstood.

Carol  
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on April 17, 2005, 11:08:30 PM
Quote
The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Sorry Tony, I was replying to Judy's statement above.  I'm probably the dense one here, but it sounded to me like she was saying there might be some other type of perfection than being in Christ (and maybe Job had it), since it is believed that Adam was perfect before he fell.

As I said, sorry if I misunderstood.

Carol  

Hi Carol,

Are these the passage you are referring to?

Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

To which I commented:

"The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

I was merely making the observation that, in this context, it appears that God defines "perfect" as "one that feareth God, and eschweth evil".  This comment in no way negates the fact that true salvation is only possible because of Christ's righteousness/perfection, imputed to those He came to save.  Since Job was a true believer, the perfection described in the above verses are an onward manifestation (or fruit) of salvation.

Yet there is a different type of "perfection" that Adam had before the fall, which some are confusing with saving faith or the perfection of Christ's righteousness -- thus the reason for this debate.

I hope this helps clarify my comment.

judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 18, 2005, 01:11:08 AM
Dear Tony,

I think your argument is straw man as if you would be comparing scripture with scripture you would see the whole picture..I didn't say God created the light...when He said let there be light he declared that Christ is the Light and without Him this whole creation is subject to vanity..

consider this scripture
Hebrews1: 5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Also you need to understand that only Christ is perfect ....not the one(Satan) in Ezekiel 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Because he fell....and Christ did not and cannot as He is God and we all know that only God is perfect.Satan fell immediately after he was created.

John 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Again you missed Romans5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. and beat around teh bush....I clearly stated that Adam was not perfect as he had his sinful nature in him but sin was not imputed to him till God gave him the law..not to eat of the tree and when the law came sin manifested which clearly proves that he was not in the image of God then,cause if was he would remain perfect and would not sin.

John17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And let me remind you that eternal life is portrayed by the tree of life in the garden of Eden which he never could eat of(the tree of life is Christ the image of God) and Jesus says eternal life is knowing God...which proves that adam never knew God so your argument is straw man.

Let me quote the scripture again Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son (not even Adam)except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Your view of Genesis 1:26 is carnal and distorted as you fit Adam there without comparing scriptures elsewhere in the bible.


You quoted Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
1st Corinthians 15:21-22

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


But forgot I said sin was in the world(sinful nature in adam) but was not imputed where there is no law...and Romans 6:23 says  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When sin was imputed death stung Adam and the whole human race...but that doesn't mean that Adam was perfect...only Christ is perfect as He is the image of God and if Adam had the image of God and fell what guarntee is there that once he is brought into the image back by Christ he will not fall away again.That kind of thinking is absurd and rubbish as we all know that man can never lose his salvation or else Christ died in vain.

Please humble yourself before scriptures and son't try to prove to the people in this thread that just because you are the moderator and have posted many teachings in your web site that you are always right....TRUTH stands above ALL.

Peace!!
Shoan



Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 18, 2005, 03:35:44 AM
>>>
Dear Tony,

I think your argument is straw man as if you would be comparing scripture with scripture you would see the whole picture..
<<<

Must be an echo in here ???


Quote
>>>
I didn't say God created the light...when He said let there be light he declared that Christ is the Light and without Him this whole creation is subject to vanity..
<<<


OK. So I guess the light created itself. And then divided itself from the darkness, and the greater light and lessor lights, they all created themselves also. This is nonsensical. God created the light and God divided it from the Darkness.

At any rate, I'm ending this discussion, since you haven't replied coherently to anything. And only one of us is indulging in honest handling of the scriptures. This discussion has become strained, and laced with somewhat irrational responses. Either you're not being coherent in your writing, or I'm becoming dyslectic. One or the other. So there is no sense in my trying to read you cut and paste various scriptures "for no apparent reason" other than the act of posting them. For you seem to have gone from a "learned scholar in the Greek" to "rambling incoherently without direction" all in a few days. And I do not feel that my further conversation with you on this issue would be productive to you, me, or anyone else for that matter.

But I wish you the best.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Pearson on April 18, 2005, 08:11:36 AM
Quote
Genesis 1:3-5
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Again, when the Bible text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual sense, we see God is clearly creating very LITERAL Lights, and establishing very LITERAL days and nights. Days and nights which He made permanent by placing a Very LITERAL sun in the very LITERAL heavens that the very LITERAL earth would revolve around. That all these things have spiritual significance is not in debate, your private interpretations that God did not create literal light and literally divide it from the darkness is what is at issue.


[Soapbox mode on]
God Bless you, your replies are always logical common sense "to the biblical point" explanations, and I appreciate that. It is obviously to me that you have a "gift" of understanding scripture, and I'm sure that frustrates people who haven't studied the scriptures as carefully as they should. Your "excellent" responses almost always give me food for thought. I only wish more christians would tackle the scriptures the way you do. I would like to add this passage that confirm that what you were saying in the quote about the light created and divided from the darkness was very literal.

Genesis 1:14-18
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."

God says he created the lights in the firmament of heaven and divided it from darkness.And clearly he's talking about the sun, mood and stars. To say these lights are spiritual and one speaks of Christ is not justified in any manner. Thanks for getting involved in this thread because as usual you get to the point. You've given me some real good things to think about.

PS, anyone who says that you need eyes to see, doesn't have eyes to see themselves. Because God has blessed you with spiritual eyes, that much is evident in your studies, your efforts with this website, and in your posts on this forum. I know you don't need me to say this, but I need to say it anyway.

(http://www.trettel.com/ccrc/images/two_cents.gif)
Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 18, 2005, 09:06:18 AM
Tony,
I didnt deny that God made the sun moon and stars which also hve spiritual appliction...I have emphsised on teh spritual aspect and I also told you that I don't deny the literal part...
However you didnt respond to the spiritual application which Paul states in 2 Corin 4:6 and have only held on to the Literal but I accept both teh physical and the sprirtual application of scripture which is the true as not I but Paul says in 2 Corin 4:6 that the light is the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ and you deny that and are leading many astray as to making them believe in the Litreal and deny the spiritual application..and there are so many scriptures I have posted which You deny the spiritual appication.

May God give You the eyes to see and ears to hear.I can only pray for you.

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: judykanova on April 18, 2005, 10:31:31 AM
Quote
quote from Tony's 4/16 post:
>> What are you talking about? When God said let there be light, there was "VERY LITERAL LIGHT."  That it has spiritual significance also is not the question. That God said Adam was created in the image of God is a "VERY LITERAL" statement. Once one starts spiritualizing without Biblical warrant, the whole Bible becomes subject to man's own private interpretations. What's to stop me from saying the first sin was spiritual? Or that God clothed Adam and eve with skins was just spiritual. No, it was very LITERAL, though it has a spiritual application. There is nothing in scripture that we should believe anything different. And man's added conclusions and private interpretations of what God said is not the Christian's authority. What is actually written there is. <<


Quote
quote from Shoan's 4/18 post:
>> ...Paul says in 2 Corin 4:6 that the light is the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ and you deny that and are leading many astray as to making them believe in the Litreal and deny the spiritual application..and there are so many scriptures I have posted which You deny the spiritual appication.

May God give You the eyes to see and ears to hear.I can only pray for you.<<


Shoan,

It's not only different to follow the logic in your most recent posts, but you seem to have a penchant for deliberately misrepresenting what others have said.  Please note the quotes above.  Tony and everyone here recognizes there is a spiritual element to the literal creation of Genesis.  That has never been under dispute and is not the main issue.

Vanity, pride and bearing false witness against others are surely things God hates.  So while praying for Tony, perhaps you should also pray for yourself --that your spiritual eyes and ears be open to God's truths. 


Eph 4:25  Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Psa 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


judy
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Daniel on April 18, 2005, 12:42:03 PM
Quote
The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Sorry Tony, I was replying to Judy's statement above.  I'm probably the dense one here, but it sounded to me like she was saying there might be some other type of perfection than being in Christ (and maybe Job had it), since it is believed that Adam was perfect before he fell.

As I said, sorry if I misunderstood.

Carol  

Hi Carol,

Are these the passage you are referring to?

Job 1
1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ...
8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2 
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

To which I commented:

"The above verses suggest another definition of "perfect" with respect to man -- namely "one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

I was merely making the observation that, in this context, it appears that God defines "perfect" as "one that feareth God, and eschweth evil".  This comment in no way negates the fact that true salvation is only possible because of Christ's righteousness/perfection, imputed to those He came to save.  Since Job was a true believer, the perfection described in the above verses are an onward manifestation (or fruit) of salvation.

Yet there is a different type of "perfection" that Adam had before the fall, which some are confusing with saving faith or the perfection of Christ's righteousness -- thus the reason for this debate.

I hope this helps clarify my comment.

judy
     The word "perfect" found in Job 1:1, Job 1:8 and in Ezekiel 28:15 come from the same hebrew root word "tamam", which means to be complete, be finished, be at an end, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically).  It seems to me that Adam and Job were perfect in the above description.  The difference being that Job feared God, and eschewed evil, and Adam didn't.
     Please explain in Job 28:15 where it says that "inquity was found in thee."  It appears that sin was in Adam and  became known as sin when Adam transgressed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
Also back to my question what is the image of God?
                                                                    Dan
                                                                               
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 18, 2005, 02:18:06 PM
>>>
  The word "perfect" found in Job 1:1, Job 1:8 and in Ezekiel 28:15 come from the same hebrew root word "tamam", which means to be complete, be finished, be at an end, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically).
<<<

The word perfect means different things depending upon the context. In other words, Christ being perfect means something different from Job being perfect. And Job being perfect means something different from Adam being "created perfect." i.e., Job could never be perfect in the sense Christ is because Job was a sinful man like the rest of us. Job also could not be perfect in the sense that Adam was in his creation (before the fall) because it was "EXPRESSLY" his fall into sin that forever put the stain of sin in man, Job and everyone else. BEFORE THAT, it wasn't there! That's a fundamental, basic tenet of Christian doctrine. Adam wasn't created in sin, He sinned Himself. Thus God is not responsible for sin, MAN is. Adam is the federal headship of man, in sin because "HE" brought it about.


Quote
>>>
It seems to me that Adam and Job were perfect in the above description.  The difference being that Job feared God, and eschewed evil, and Adam didn't.
<<<

I don't think we can say that "dogmatically" simply on the basis that Adam sinned. Job sinned against God just as Adam sinned against God. The scriptures bear record of that. No, the real difference is that Adam was the "FIRST" to sin and come under the penalty of death.

Romans 6:23
No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But there are many little clues that can be seen in scripture that (in my humble opinion) would lead us to believe that they did find Grace.

One:

Genesis 3:21
The Lord says nothing capriciously, and God is using the image of His sacrificing an animal (illuistrated in his supplying skins) to clothe both Adam and Eve. This seems to be a sign that they too came under the Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's own sacrifice.

Two:

Genesis 3:15-16
The Lord says nothing Capriciously, and God uses Eve as a symbol of the Church, the Woman whose seed will bruise Satan's head, and Adam as her head. this seems to be confirmed in the statements of 1st Timothy.

1st Timothy 2:14-15
Three:

Adam and Eve brought up Godly children (for the most part) as Abel and seth, and this seems to run contrary to all the biblical norm of unsaved nations. Sorry to digress, but I don't find any dogmatic statements in scripture that say Adam was definately unsaved. The real difference between Adam and Job was that Adam was created by God from clay, without imperfection, having never sinned, and being in the paradise of God, in the Eden of God, created in the very image of God (a cherub is the very Image of God -Ezekiel 1:28) and was the federal headship of man.


Quote
>>>
Please explain in Job 28:15 where it says that "inquity was found in thee."
<<<

How? It doesn't say iniquity was found in thee in Job 28:15. What's your point?


Quote
>>>
It appears that sin was in Adam and  became known as sin when Adam transgressed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
<<<

Genesis 2:17
Let's try and be rational. If Adam had sinned before he ate of the tree, then Adam would have suffered the penalty for sin, which is death. God said that in the day that Adam ate from the tree (sinned, or transgressed His law) is the day he would die. Because sin is the transgression of the law, and God had given him the law. But don't take my word for it.

1st John 3:4
i.e., you cannot sin without transgressing THE LAW. And you cannot transgress the law without sinning. So then, rationally and Biblically speaking, Adam could not have sinned without transgressing the law. Because that is what sin is. And no surprise, God says when Adam disobeyed His word, He died. The wages of sin is death! He didn't die "until" he ate from the tree. Ergo, until the day Adam sinned, He was not under the penalty of Death "for sin." Moreover, God didn't say "you are already in sin so you're already dead," God said, "in the day that you sin or transgress my law, you will die." And by any normal grammatical understanding, that is illustrating that He had not sinned as yet! Here's the formula.

"absence of sin = No death."

"Sin = death."

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul that sins, dies. Adam didn't die until "THE DAY" that he ate of the tree. He was God's perfect creation until the day iniquity (sin) was found in him. Where's the mystery.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 18, 2005, 10:14:37 PM
Judy I think you had said that you will not speak to me on this topic anymore...and I told you the same,but anyways since you have replied ....see the posts you have written and Tony has written ,you have denied the spiritual application cause if you had accepted the spiritual application then you would be in the same position that I am in.

You ignore 2 Corin 4:6 and refuse to comment on it....check what Tony has written he speaks about God sperating the day from night (literal) which I aggree but refuses to accept that when God says Let there be Light He was speaking about giving the Light of the Knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus christ(2Corin 4:6).And you have ignored that too...Ignoring is denying....so what are you talking about??????

please God rather than men because all men are liars but the Word of God is truth and cannot be chained.

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Erik Diamond on April 18, 2005, 10:40:26 PM
Please give it a rest, Shoan.

I agreed with Tony's position on Adam and the Image of God. I agreed that Adam was CREATED in Image of God until he lost it when took bite of the fruit.  However, the Image of God (or Christ) were 'restored' to Adam, Eve AND all of God's children (not everyone else) during their lifetime SPIRITUALLY from the time Christ went to the Cross. Now you were complaing about spiritual application of "Light and Darkness".  May I suggest the following verses:

Zec 14:6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
 
Zec 14:7  But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14 is actually talking about the First Coming of Christ and the Cross. This chapter is about how the Salvation made possible for God's Elect. The Cross is the main point of Mankind. The living water coming from the Cross - half of it going back to former sea (For Old Testament Saints), and half of them going forward to the hinder sea (For New Testament Saints).

God is not controlled by time.  From Adam's time, God already saw Himself hung on the Cross thousands of years later. And apply that Salvation from the cross going back to Adam and have restored him to image of God/Christ again...spiritually. You see, God did created Adam literally until he disobeyed God. But in His Grace and Mercy, He did restore Adam to image of God... IN CHRIST. 

Now about the light and dark in Zech 14:1-7? Have we heard about it before?  ::)

Peace,
Erik Diamond

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 18, 2005, 10:57:41 PM
Daniel,

Christ is the Image of God  2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
 
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation


Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Only by knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He sent is one brought into that image as one recieves eternal life  John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Adam never ate of the tree of life(symbol of Jesus Christ through whom we recieve eternal life and are brought into the image of God) so that clearly shows that he didnt bear the image of God before sin was imputed to him.

Adam already had the sinful nature in him but sin is not imputed where there is no law but when the law came he couldnt resist sin and he fell....Ge 3:6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So perfection in Adam was out of the question...Ezekiel 28 speaks about Satan.....The key verse in it "Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."

Thou sealest up the sum(the word there is mistranslated as sum..it should be pattern)...it's only Satan who seals the pattern(gospel) and not Adam....The language here is as though he was perfect before he fell see what Jesus had to say about him John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He abode not in truth and is a REBEL and causes every one to REBEL against God...from day one that he was created his intention was to murder..seal up the pattern.

So that remains with Christ as the only perfect one who is divine and who couldn't sin as He is the image of God...there are those who are in this thread who beat around the bush by bringing Job in the discussion...obviously those in Christ are perfect as sin is paid for and they are brought into the image of God as in principle the Lamb was slain before the foundation of this world.

It is only Christ as a Son shares perfect relationship with the Father Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Daniel on April 19, 2005, 07:32:22 AM
>>>
  The word "perfect" found in Job 1:1, Job 1:8 and in Ezekiel 28:15 come from the same hebrew root word "tamam", which means to be complete, be finished, be at an end, be sound, be unimpaired, be upright (ethically).
<<<

The word perfect means different things depending upon the context. In other words, Christ being perfect means something different from Job being perfect. And Job being perfect means something different from Adam being "created perfect." i.e., Job could never be perfect in the sense Christ is because Job was a sinful man like the rest of us. Job also could not be perfect in the sense that Adam was in his creation (before the fall) because it was "EXPRESSLY" his fall into sin that forever put the stain of sin in man, Job and everyone else. BEFORE THAT, it wasn't there! That's a fundamental, basic tenet of Christian doctrine. Adam wasn't created in sin, He sinned Himself. Thus God is not responsible for sin, MAN is. Adam is the federal headship of man, in sin because "HE" brought it about.


Quote
>>>
It seems to me that Adam and Job were perfect in the above description.  The difference being that Job feared God, and eschewed evil, and Adam didn't.
<<<

I don't think we can say that "dogmatically" simply on the basis that Adam sinned. Job sinned against God just as Adam sinned against God. The scriptures bear record of that. No, the real difference is that Adam was the "FIRST" to sin and come under the penalty of death.

Romans 6:23
  • "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
No one knows "for sure" whether Adam and Eve came under Grace of God or not. But there are many little clues that can be seen in scripture that (in my humble opinion) would lead us to believe that they did find Grace.

One:

Genesis 3:21
  • "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
The Lord says nothing capriciously, and God is using the image of His sacrificing an animal (illuistrated in his supplying skins) to clothe both Adam and Eve. This seems to be a sign that they too came under the Grace of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, through God's own sacrifice.

Two:

Genesis 3:15-16
  • "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
  • Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee[/i]."
The Lord says nothing Capriciously, and God uses Eve as a symbol of the Church, the Woman whose seed will bruise Satan's head, and Adam as her head. this seems to be confirmed in the statements of 1st Timothy.

1st Timothy 2:14-15
  • "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
  • Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety[/i]."
Three:

Adam and Eve brought up Godly children (for the most part) as Abel and seth, and this seems to run contrary to all the biblical norm of unsaved nations. Sorry to digress, but I don't find any dogmatic statements in scripture that say Adam was definately unsaved. The real difference between Adam and Job was that Adam was created by God from clay, without imperfection, having never sinned, and being in the paradise of God, in the Eden of God, created in the very image of God (a cherub is the very Image of God -Ezekiel 1:28) and was the federal headship of man.


Quote
>>>
Please explain in Job 28:15 where it says that "inquity was found in thee."
<<<

How? It doesn't say iniquity was found in thee in Job 28:15. What's your point?


Quote
>>>
It appears that sin was in Adam and  became known as sin when Adam transgressed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
<<<

Genesis 2:17
  • "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Let's try and be rational. If Adam had sinned before he ate of the tree, then Adam would have suffered the penalty for sin, which is death. God said that in the day that Adam ate from the tree (sinned, or transgressed His law) is the day he would die. Because sin is the transgression of the law, and God had given him the law. But don't take my word for it.

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin IS the transgression of the law."
i.e., you cannot sin without transgressing THE LAW. And you cannot transgress the law without sinning. So then, rationally and Biblically speaking, Adam could not have sinned without transgressing the law. Because that is what sin is. And no surprise, God says when Adam disobeyed His word, He died. The wages of sin is death! He didn't die "until" he ate from the tree. Ergo, until the day Adam sinned, He was not under the penalty of Death "for sin." Moreover, God didn't say "you are already in sin so you're already dead," God said, "in the day that you sin or transgress my law, you will die." And by any normal grammatical understanding, that is illustrating that He had not sinned as yet! Here's the formula.

"absence of sin = No death."

"Sin = death."

Ezekiel 18:4
  • "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
The soul that sins, dies. Adam didn't die until "THE DAY" that he ate of the tree. He was God's perfect creation until the day iniquity (sin) was found in him. Where's the mystery.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

      I made a mistake, I meant Ezekiel 28:15.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Daniel on April 19, 2005, 12:10:00 PM
What I'am coming to understand is the the "Image of God" is Christ ( according to some of the posts on this thread). 
     Gen.1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female."
     If the image of God is Christ, then it follows that Adam and Eve were the image of Christ.  This seems like the salvation message.  Can it be that God is showing us the Gospel before Adam fell?
That all fall short of the glory of God and need to be saved through Christ.
                                                                             Dan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 19, 2005, 12:29:50 PM
>>>
Gen.1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female."
     If the image of God is Christ, then it follows that Adam and Eve were the image of Christ.  This seems like the salvation message.  Can't it be that God is showing us the Gospel before Adam fell?
That all fall short of the glory of God and need to be saved through Christ.
                                                                             Dan
<<<

Absolutely! That's the "spiritual" significance of the "VERY LITERAL" history of the creation of man in Adam and Eve, and the covering of their nakedness (sin) by the sacrifice for them that God made to cover that nakedness.

The problem with the "other" view is that it denies the literal application and holds it's not really true that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and fell in the garden. Rather than accept that both are the true witness of the scriptures, one is denied without any Biblical justification.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 19, 2005, 12:48:56 PM
Stacia,
  Biblical forum.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

If you don't have any Biblical defense, support, questions or answers to add to the discussion, please refrain from posting in it.

Thanks for your cooperation.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 19, 2005, 11:59:19 PM
Tony U said,
The problem with the "other" view is that it denies the literal application and holds it's not really true that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and fell in the garden. Rather than accept that both are the true witness of the scriptures, one is denied without any Biblical justification.  

Literal application to Adam doesn't arise at all as the scriptures clearly prove otherwise....The scriptures speak the truth and gives us the whole picture.

Ge 1:26-27 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
 Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
(NKJV)
When was this new man created???? The elect were predestined and were chosen before the foundation of this world .


Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Let Us make man in our image.....God through Jesus Christ saves His elect and brings them into His image....The new man creation was through the work of the cross.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him  before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge 1:3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
Joh 8:12 ¶ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The word of God tells us to compare spiritual things with spiritual:1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Jesus said Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The word of God is spritual and therefore every part of it is spritual.It is clear from the word of God that when God said let Us make Man in Our image He made the New man created in His image...the elect conformed to the image of God and the image of God is Christ.Giving Man dominion over the fish,cattle,beast etc is the regin that the elect share in the kingdom of Christ.

Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

The high view of Adam is blasphemy of the Word of God as only Christ is perfect and is the image of God and brings mankind(the elect,including Adam) into His image at salvation.

If Adam had the image of God he would know God and would share perfect relationship with the Father.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

By saying Adam ws perfect before sinning you make Jesus a liar as Jesus declares no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son.Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus christ whom He sent. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Did Adam eat of the tree of life??? Did he have eternal life before he sinned??? can eternal life be lost by sining??? Can Adam sin after having perfect relationship with the Father??? if he could then Jesus could also sin which is again blasphemy.

There is lot of biblical justification which has been posted,now if you think you are right and want to hardern your heart then reply to every scripture posted to prove my postion is wrong.

My postion is ONLY CHRIST IS PRE-EMINENT and yours  ADAM ALSO IS PRE-EMINENT AND SO IS CHRIST.

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kira on April 20, 2005, 11:03:44 AM

Genesis 2:17
  • "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Let's try and be rational. If Adam had sinned before he ate of the tree, then Adam would have suffered the penalty for sin, which is death. God said that in the day that Adam ate from the tree (sinned, or transgressed His law) is the day he would die. Because sin is the transgression of the law, and God had given him the law. But don't take my word for it.

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin IS the transgression of the law."
i.e., you cannot sin without transgressing THE LAW. And you cannot transgress the law without sinning. So then, rationally and Biblically speaking, Adam could not have sinned without transgressing the law. Because that is what sin is. And no surprise, God says when Adam disobeyed His word, He died. The wages of sin is death! He didn't die "until" he ate from the tree. Ergo, until the day Adam sinned, He was not under the penalty of Death "for sin." Moreover, God didn't say "you are already in sin so you're already dead," God said, "in the day that you sin or transgress my law, you will die." And by any normal grammatical understanding, that is illustrating that He had not sinned as yet! Here's the formula.

"absence of sin = No death."

"Sin = death."



Tony, Thank you for your always interesting expositions of scripture. I love how you explain things on a basic level in plain language so that even a slow witted person like myself can understand it. I agree with your assessment of these verses. I have been learning a great deal from your posts, but I have a question concerning this passage.

 Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 In this verse does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our" or is this a bad translation of the KJV translators. Us implies more than one God, does it not?


Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Erik Diamond on April 20, 2005, 11:13:48 AM
Quote
Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our" or is this a bad translation of the KJV translators. Us implies more than one God, does it not?

"Us" and "our" are referred to Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They all are working together on creation. Yet they are also one and the same. There is no other god.

Hope this helps.

Erik Diamond
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: andreas on April 20, 2005, 08:08:04 PM
<<<does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our">>>

- kai eipen o qeos poihswmen anqrwpon kat¢ eikona hmeteran kai kaq¢ omoiwsin   
(The Septuagint.-Not the original,but a translation in Greek.)

Yes ,it does.
andreas. 8)
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 21, 2005, 05:15:34 AM
>>>
 Ge 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 In this verse does the original manuscripts say "us" and "our" or is this a bad translation of the KJV translators. Us implies more than one God, does it not?
<<<

Kira,
  It's always good to hear that someone is taking the word of God seriously, as it's so rare these days.
 
  Actually, in the original manuscripts the words "us" and "our" do not really appear, but the Hebrew word "God" is elohym or elohym, and is the plural pronoun. i.e., elohym is a form of the word "El" meaning God. In the Hebrew language the "ym" ending imputes plurality. Thus, "Elohym" is the plural from of the word "El," so that the "us" and "our" are explicitly implied and therefore very accurate translations.

The "One God" inspired in Genesis written in "terms" of us and our, is to indicate a plural within one. And this is as we would expect "understanding" that this refers to the Trinity, the three personages of the Godhead.
 
nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on April 21, 2005, 10:49:27 AM

Daniel,

  I don't mean to be curt, but do you understand the "concept" of Rules?

  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

  Either abide by the rules, or don't post here. I'm not interested in opinions without biblical support. As clearly stated in the rules, and which you have been reminded of. There are lots of other forums around the web that you can go to if you just want idle conversation, untenable proclamations and agreement with a pat on the back. But this isn't one of them. If you like, I can send you a list. But this is a Bible forum, discussing and defending doctrines from the bible.

Thanks for your cooperation.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Daniel on April 21, 2005, 11:30:49 AM

Daniel,

  I don't mean to be curt, but do you understand the "concept" of Rules?

  http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/rules.html

  Either abide by the rules, or don't post here. I'm not interested in opinions without biblical support. As clearly stated in the rules, and which you have been reminded of. There are lots of other forums around the web that you can go to if you just want idle conversation, untenable proclamations and agreement with a pat on the back. But this isn't one of them. If you like, I can send you a list. But this is a Bible forum, discussing and defending doctrines from the bible.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Tony,
     I apologize.  I will adhere to the rules.  I just get excited and forget.
                                                                     Dan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on April 22, 2005, 06:28:57 AM
Here is what we Baptists believe concerning man being made in the image of God. Which he most definately was, according to the infallible word of God!

The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message

III. Man

Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.

Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6;
Psalms 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5;
Isaiah 6:5;
Jeremiah 17:5;
Matthew 16:26;
Acts 17:26-31;
Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29;
1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22;
Ephesians 2:1-22;
Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on April 22, 2005, 06:55:34 AM
The word of God is spritual and therefore every part of it is spritual.

Are you saying that there is no literal application? That is an indefensible conclusion. God created man very literally.

My sense is that you are continually misrepresenting other christian's views. That's not very christian. I think two or three people have already told you that they do recognize the spiritual application. I'll join that voice saying that we do recognize the spiritual application. But also the very literal application. So why don't you stop bearing false witness?


Quote
If Adam had the image of God he would know God and would share perfect relationship with the Father.


His relationship with God was a perfect relationship until he sinned, was cast out of the Paradise of God, and separated from God where he was no longer allowed to live in the garden of Eden. You are confused about how God communed with Adam in the garden.

 Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

Adam did not hide himself from the presence of God until he sinned. So before then, their was a perfect relationship between God and man. After he sinned, he was separated from God. The essence of death, the wages of sin.


Quote
My postion is ONLY CHRIST IS PRE-EMINENT and yours  ADAM ALSO IS PRE-EMINENT AND SO IS CHRIST.

Peace!!
Shoan


False witness is not a characteristic of saving faith, it's sad that you have to stoop to it in order to build up your case. We too believe in the preeminence of Christ.

 Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

You need to stop bearing false witness in your posts to try and make people think that we are some kind of heretics. It's not christian.

 Deuteronomy 5:20 "Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour."

 Proverbs 21:28 "A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly."
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 22, 2005, 11:31:39 PM
Reformed baptist,

You don't now what you are talking about.You make Jesus a liar when He said Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. beacuse no man knows the Father except the Son....not even Adam cause if he had perfect relationship with the Father he would have never sinned.

You quoted :

His relationship with God was a perfect relationship until he sinned, was cast out of the Paradise of God, and separated from God where he was no longer allowed to live in the garden of Eden. You are confused about how God communed with Adam in the garden.

 Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

God spoke to even Baalam and so does that mean Baalam had perfect relationship with God as God spoke to him on so many occassions....God also spoke to Satan in the book of Job..does it mean God has perfect relationship with satan..I can give you hundreds of examples from the bible...I feel sad for you that you came up with so poor interpretation of Scripture.

You also quote your traditional baptist beliefs:

Here is what we Baptists believe concerning man being made in the image of God. Which he most definately was, according to the infallible word of God!

The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message

III. Man

Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.

Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6;
Psalms 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5;
Isaiah 6:5;
Jeremiah 17:5;
Matthew 16:26;
Acts 17:26-31;
Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29;
1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22;
Ephesians 2:1-22;
Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11.

Tht's where the problem lies ,,,,man is blinded by his traditional beliefs taught to him by his fathers and will do all his best to defend it but whatever you have posted doesnt stand the test of scriptures.

Jesus said Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If Adam knew God and shared perfect relationship with God he would have eternal life and eternal life cannot be lost as he would be in the image of God which is Christ.
This eternal life is portrayed in the gardern of Eden by the tree of life of which Adam never ate.

Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Ge 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


So could you please tell me which bible tells you that he had eternal life....eternal life is knowing God.

Moreover I have quoted these scriptures again and again but no one seems to answer them but simply ignore them and just quote Gen 1:27-27.....So those who do that are naturally proving that the doctrine they believe is just based on one scripture and it's ok to neglect other scriptures which speak otherwise.
Neglecting is denying

Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him

I also posted Romans 5:13 which clearly says Ro 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This shows that Adam had the sinful nature but he didnt realize he was in need of a savior and also sin was not imputed to him till the law came "do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil".This is proved by the fact that Eve who according to you was created in the  image of God couldnt resist the temptation as she also had the sinful nature which dragged her to sin.(Sin was already in the world)

Ge 3:6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The need for a savior came when their eyes were opened(they realized they were sinful).

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

Paul says Ro 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Did Paul mean to say he was spiritually alive without the law.....no not at all ..actually he quoted Adam there that Adam was alive in a sense that he didn't realize he was sinful and was in desperate need of a Savior but when the law came sin revived and he died..Paul is putting himself in Adam's shoes here and is clearly stating that he too like Adam was in desperate need of a savior before he realized he was sinful but the realization came through the commandment so is the commandment bad ,nO

Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

When the law made man realize he is sinful his desperate need for a savior arose:

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Only Christ is the savior who rescues His elect..The whole world is alive in the sense they have no realization that they are in need of a Savior and unless God opens the eyes of the blind,Man cannot understand that he is in need of a Savior.As we all know Christ paid the price only for His elect and there God opens the elect's eyes to see that his desperate need is met by his Savior Jesus Christ.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on April 24, 2005, 03:58:06 AM
Roman 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,.Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God..
 1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Was Adam a different creature then? Was he having some other body?
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Chris on April 24, 2005, 04:37:19 AM
Roman 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,.Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God..
 1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Was Adam a different creature then? Was he having some other body?


The New Testament commentary says:

The creation was subjected to vanity; that is, became empty; lost its original significance. The Greek word [mataiotes] rendered "vanity," means "to seek without finding." God placed "the creation" under man's dominion, and when man fell the whole was subject to vanity by God.
 
  In hope. A hope was left to creation in its fallen estate. A promise of final redemption was made to fallen man (#Ge 3:15), and the creation is represented as sharing that hope.


Which is the traditional reformed understanding.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 24, 2005, 11:12:54 PM
The New Testament commentary says:

The creation was subjected to vanity; that is, became empty; lost its original significance. The Greek word [mataiotes] rendered "vanity," means "to seek without finding." God placed "the creation" under man's dominion, and when man fell the whole was subject to vanity by God.
 
  In hope. A hope was left to creation in its fallen estate. A promise of final redemption was made to fallen man (#Ge 3:15), and the creation is represented as sharing that hope.

Which is the traditional reformed understanding

The problem is that the word traditional always appears on this thread.Traditon is what is passed down through centuries,tradition is my fathers have done a research on this subject so I will not be bothered whether they are right or wrong,Because majority here believe in the traditional view let me join them in their belief....these are one class of people

The other here claim I have studied the scriptures and have found my fathers to be right.

Yet others I go with this one's view and that one's view.

Can anyone tell me what's going on??????? is anyone here a follower of God or men.

Where is your standing???? on what yours fathers say or on the Word of God.We all know that man is fallible and cannot be our teacher...Christ is our teacher Mt 23:8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
 Mt 23:10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.


Please discuss the Word of God rather than giving the impression that you are a follower of your fathers which were just mere men.

Men are fallible and may have given and handed down their teachings but they may have been wrong teachings and in rebellion with God thinking they were doing service to God.

La 5:7 Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities.

Ps 78:8 And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright, And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

Ps 106:6 ¶ We have sinned with our fathers, We have committed iniquity, We have done wickedly

 [b]Jer 3:25 We lie down in our shame, And our reproach covers us. For we have sinned against the LORD our God, We and our fathers, From our youth even to this day, And have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God."

Let us discuss the word of God not tradition.

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sue Landow on April 25, 2005, 09:10:29 AM

 Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

Adam did not hide himself from the presence of God until he sinned. So before then, their was a perfect relationship between God and man. After he sinned, he was separated from God. The essence of death, the wages of sin.


R.Baptist, I agree with your understanding of the text. And I think that the spiritual significance of it is very clear because God threw Adam out of his garden because he was unworthy to stay there anymore because of his sin. I say Obviously!

 Genesis 3:24
   "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

 Obviously he was worthy to be there in the paradise of God (where the tree of life is) before he sinned, and was deemed unworthy to stay there after he had sinned. Who is going to debate against that? I think most of us are on the same very biblical page. And we have to remember that man wasn't forbidden to eat of the tree of life in the garden until after he sinned. God said that he could eat of every tree except the tree of knowledge. That means his sin kept him from partaking of what God hads provided for him. This is the biblical view.

Another thing. It is wrong to say that man was created in sin already, and so he sinned. If he was created in sin, he already had sin before he ate of the tree, and so already had death hanging over him. That cannot be true.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Kira on April 25, 2005, 01:23:35 PM
Kira,
  It's always good to hear that someone is taking the word of God seriously, as it's so rare these days.
 
  Actually, in the original manuscripts the words "us" and "our" do not really appear, but the Hebrew word "God" is elohym or elohym, and is the plural pronoun. i.e., elohym is a form of the word "El" meaning God. In the Hebrew language the "ym" ending imputes plurality. Thus, "Elohym" is the plural from of the word "El," so that the "us" and "our" are explicitly implied and therefore very accurate translations.


Thanks Tony, I didn't know that and it helps tremendously the way you explain it so easily with just a few easily understandable words. Your posts have been a great help to me in understanding this whole image of God question, and it just amazes me the spiritual truths we find simply by adhering faithfully to scripture.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 25, 2005, 11:23:11 PM
Sue you said,

Obviously he was worthy to be there in the paradise of God (where the tree of life is) before he sinned, and was deemed unworthy to stay there after he had sinned. Who is going to debate against that? I think most of us are on the same very biblical page. And we have to remember that man wasn't forbidden to eat of the tree of life in the garden until after he sinned. God said that he could eat of every tree except the tree of knowledge. That means his sin kept him from partaking of what God hads provided for him. This is the biblical view.


Who said Adam was in the garden of Eden because he was worthy??? It was the creator's choice to keep him there till sin manifested in Him.

If you were on the biblical page you would have seen what the Word of God says Ro 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

You would have seen that Adam never ate of the tree of life which shows he never had eternal life in him,,,just because he was not forbidden to eat of the tree of life(which is symbolic of Christ)...did he choose Christ symbolized by the tree of life or did he manifest his already sinful nature by eating from the  forbidden tree.Can a person choose Christ today of his own free will????

The main point is he never ate of the tree of life cause he couldn't.Could Adam frustrate the will of God(whose will was that before the foundation of the world His elect be chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ by His sacrifice for their sins) by remaining faithful????

Joh 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Did Adam know God??? read the above verse and think for yourself???

Also Jesus said Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

If Adam was perfect before the fall according to you then Christ is a liar and that cannot be,,because all men are liars but the word of God is true and faithful.

Also by saying Adam was perfect and holy before he fell one actually believes that Adam apart from Christ was perfect.Perfection only comes by being in christ.

I don't know which biblical page you and others are on????

Peace!!
Shoan
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformed Baptist on April 26, 2005, 04:40:30 PM

R.Baptist, I agree with your understanding of the text. And I think that the spiritual significance of it is very clear because God threw Adam out of his garden because he was unworthy to stay there anymore because of his sin. I say Obviously!

 Genesis 3:24
   "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

 Thank you Sue. I don't say I have all the answers, but I don't think that there is any question that we are on the right track. The very fact that he was not cast out until he sinned, is proof enough that the sin was the reason for him being cast out. That's just common sense. You should have quoted the passages before verse 24 also, because I believe they also show that he were cast out because of his sin.

 Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 Genesis 3: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God says "therefore" the Lord sent him out of the garden, which to me means because of his sin he would have eaten of the tree of life next. But because of his sin, he was now unworthy to eat of it. I think some people want to put the cart before the horse. Put sin and punishment before sin. This should go on Phil Johnson's bookmark's of "Bad Theology."


Quote
Obviously he was worthy to be there in the paradise of God (where the tree of life is) before he sinned, and was deemed unworthy to stay there after he had sinned. Who is going to debate against that?

 The same people who debate against God being created in the image of God, even though God says man was created in the image of God?  ;)


Quote
I think most of us are on the same very biblical page. And we have to remember that man wasn't forbidden to eat of the tree of life in the garden until after he sinned. God said that he could eat of every tree except the tree of knowledge. That means his sin kept him from partaking of what God hads provided for him. This is the biblical view.

I agree. Tony said it best, Adam was the anointed Cherub, the image of God in the garden until the day iniquity was found in him. And isn't it amazing that God says of the Cherubim, it was the image of the glory of God (In Ezekiel somewhere). Man was the glory of God in the garden of Eden until he sinned and was separted from God. Perhaps that is why scripture says, "Ye are gods." Something for another thread I guess.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on April 27, 2005, 01:04:36 AM
Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The above scripture applies for all man including Adam Except the perfect one Christ.
If Adam was perfect then this scripture should not be there in the Bible.Either you all are right or God is wrong
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sue Landow on April 27, 2005, 03:42:39 AM

 Thank you Sue. I don't say I have all the answers, but I don't think that there is any question that we are on the right track. The very fact that he was not cast out until he sinned, is proof enough that the sin was the reason for him being cast out. That's just common sense. You should have quoted the passages before verse 24 also, because I believe they also show that he were cast out because of his sin.


 Yes sir that is an elementary principle, that you cannot sin without sining, and God said that Adam's sin was that he ate of the tree of knowledge. That was man's first sin. You're right that I should have included the other verses in context because they also show man's sin. But just to keep repeating that man is not perfect only Christ is, is to totally miss the point.

 Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

As was previously pointed out, God has different ways he uses the word perfect. Below is a piece I cut and pasted from a good paper I read on the covenants.



The Covenant of Works

Having created man in his own image as a free creature with knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, God entered into covenant with Adam that he might bestow upon him further blessing. Called variously the Edenic covenant, the covenant of nature, the covenant of life, or preferably the covenant of works, this pact consisted of (1) a promise of eternal life upon the condition of perfect obedience throughout a probationary period; (2) the threat of death upon disobedience; and (3) the sacrament of the tree of life, or, in addition, the sacraments of paradise and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Although the term "covenant" is not mentioned in the first chapters of Genesis, it is held that all the elements of a covenant are present even though the promise of eternal life is there by implication only. Before the fall Adam was perfect but could still have sinned; had he retained his perfection throughout the probationary period, he would have been confirmed in righteousness and been unable to sin.
Inasmuch as he was acting not only for himself but representatively for mankind, Adam was a public person. His fall therefore affected the entire human race that was to come after him; all are now conceived and born in sin. Without a special intervention of God there would be no hope; all would be lost forever.

The good news, however, is that God has intervened in behalf of mankind with another covenant. Unlike the earlier covenant of works, whose mandate was "Do this and you shall live" (cf. Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3:12), the covenant of grace is bestowed on men in their sinful condition with the promise that, in spite of their inability to keep any of the commandments of God, out of sheer grace he forgives their sin and accepts them as his children through the merits of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, on the condition of Faith.

M E Osterhaven
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: stacia on April 27, 2005, 03:06:03 PM
Having created man in his own image as a free creature with knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, God entered into covenant with Adam that he might bestow upon him further blessing. Called variously the Edenic covenant, the covenant of nature, the covenant of life, or preferably the covenant of works, this pact consisted of (1) a promise of eternal life upon the condition of perfect obedience throughout a probationary period; (2) the threat of death upon disobedience; and (3) the sacrament of the tree of life, or, in addition, the sacraments of paradise and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Although the term "covenant" is not mentioned in the first chapters of Genesis, it is held that all the elements of a covenant are present even though the promise of eternal life is there by implication only. Before the fall Adam was perfect but could still have sinned; had he retained his perfection throughout the probationary period, he would have been confirmed in righteousness and been unable to sin.
Inasmuch as he was acting not only for himself but representatively for mankind, Adam was a public person. His fall therefore affected the entire human race that was to come after him; all are now conceived and born in sin. Without a special intervention of God there would be no hope; all would be lost forever.

The good news, however, is that God has intervened in behalf of mankind with another covenant. Unlike the earlier covenant of works, whose mandate was "Do this and you shall live" (cf. Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3:12), the covenant of grace is bestowed on men in their sinful condition with the promise that, in spite of their inability to keep any of the commandments of God, out of sheer grace he forgives their sin and accepts them as his children through the merits of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, on the condition of Faith.

M E Osterhaven
Who is this M E Osterhaven? Is he God?
From which bible is the above quote?
Ge 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Noah didnt have his own righteousness but by Gods grace he was made righteous.
peace
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Reformer on April 27, 2005, 03:41:27 PM

 But just to keep repeating that man is not perfect only Christ is, is to totally miss the point.

 Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

As was previously pointed out, God has different ways he uses the word perfect. Below is a piece I cut and pasted from a good paper I read on the covenants.


Appreciate your input Sue. I think that Covenant Theology is really the only theology that answers the question of original sin, the serpent, the image of God Adam was created in, Infant baptism, Covenant eschatology, the seed of the woman, Christ as Israel, the covenant of works, the Church in the wilderness, Moses and the law, and on and on. Without a rudimentary understanding of covenant theology, I think that many people are bound to comne to really bad conclusions and misinterpret scripture. And everyone doesn't have the mind to sort this all out, and that's why it's not something that all Christians have to know. So I appreciate you posting that little blog about the Covenant and Adam being created perfect before God. Because for those of us who appreciate consistent theology, it's very exciting to put this more and more together.

 Genesis 3:20
  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

This is the spiritual reason why Eve was the mother of all living, the woman who's seed would bruise Satan's head. This tells me that Adam and Eve found grace in God's eyes also, and by him clothing them with skins, was made a figure of their being righteous again by the covering of Christ. The amazing thing we see is that they didn't need clothing before they sinned, but afterward they had to be clothed by God. What a stunning portrait of man. Anyone who cannot see the spiritual application here just doesn't have ability to get it. When Adam sinned, he lost his righteousness, and had to be clothed in Christ just like the rest of us. They became part of the covenant relationship that God has made with his chosen people. I really don't know how those who don't understand the covenant of works, can really understand the covenant of grace.

 Luke 3:38
  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 Adam is called the "son of God" because that phrase signifies a covenant believer. It's all about the Covenant and unfortunately so many people don't have any understanding of how Adam, created perfect, under the covenant of works, sinned, was separated from God, and then came under this covenant of grace. Wow, this is a beautiful revelation by God of the Covenant.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Sue Landow on April 28, 2005, 07:50:51 AM
Appreciate your input Sue. I think that Covenant Theology is really the only theology that answers the question of original sin, the serpent, the image of God Adam was created in, Infant baptism, Covenant eschatology, the seed of the woman, Christ as Israel, the covenant of works, the Church in the wilderness, Moses and the law, and on and on.


I believe that you are correct in that covenant theology ties into everything, including the kingdom, salvation and sovereign grace. Interesting that you bring up this verse as I was thinking about this just a few days ago.

Genesis 3:20
  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

It's also interesting that it can be taken two different ways. And I think God deliberately made it that way. It can be taken as Eve is the mother of all living in that all living comes from her seed. Or it can be taken as you have shown that she is the woman from whom the seed comes who brings life to all the elect. Likewise the passage about Adam being the son of God.

Luke 3:38
  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

It can be taken as he was one of God's elect, or it can be taken as he was merely a son in the sense God was his father because God formed him from this earth. I think that both are correct and that is what others do not understand. The connection between the historical and the spiritual.

 Genesis 1:27
  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 The same thing I see here as in the other two passages. The very historical along with the very literal.


Quote

 Wow, this is a beautiful revelation by God of the Covenant.

 I couldn't agree with you more.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Shoan on April 30, 2005, 01:20:24 AM
Reformer:

Ge 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

God is showing us that both Adam and Eve were naked(without Christ,,,imperfect,sinful but sin was not yet imputed beacuse the law had not yet come and when the law came sin revived and they died).

Ro 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ge 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
 Ge 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."
 Ge 3:11 ¶ And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?"


The nakedness is clearly spiritual as God asks them who told you you are naked?Have you eaten from the tree?(In other words,who told you that you were naked,did the law show you that?)

Ga 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Ro 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Paul says he was alive once(without the knowledge that he was naked and in desperate need of Christ) but when the law came he relaized that he was dead in his sins.

Nakedness in scripture is being naked in sin and in need of a Savior.So if God says Adam and Eve were naked then it definetly means they were in need of a Savior as perfectness is only in Christ and those who are in Christ are perfect in Christ.

 Isa 58:7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; When you see the naked, that you cover him, And not hide yourself from your own flesh?

Mt 25:36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
 Mt 25:38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
 Mt 25:43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
 Mt 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


You said:
 Genesis 3:20
  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
and Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. and Luke 3:38   Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 Adam is called the "son of God" because that phrase signifies a covenant believer. It's all about the Covenant and unfortunately so many people don't have any understanding of how Adam, created perfect, under the covenant of works, sinned, was separated from God, and then came under this covenant of grace. Wow, this is a beautiful revelation by God of the Covenant.

This is no revelation but an absurd interpretation of scriptures.God's covenant of grace with man began before the foundation of this world Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In principle the Lamb was slain before the foundation of this world so naturally Adam was included in the Covenant with all of God's elect...so if he is called son of God how can you say he was created perfect but if you say he was in covenant relationship with God then yes he was but in Christ only not apart from Christ.

It's just like some years ago we were unbelievers and were in sin but in God's eyes we were still His sons as He had chosen us before the foundation of this world in Christ Jesus.

Peace!!
Shoan




Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: servant on May 03, 2005, 12:13:47 AM
Tony you said Genesis 3:21

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."The nakedness of sin came about by Adam's disobedience. But clothed by God illustrates they were saved from their spiritual nakedness.
One thing I can't understand Adam and Eve were naked before they fell.Does it imply that they were spiritually naked before they fell or it is physical nakedness.Please shed some light on this.

Thank You.
Servant  :)
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 03, 2005, 03:05:24 AM
>>>
One thing I can't understand Adam and Eve were naked before they fell.Does it imply that they were spiritually naked before they fell or it is physical nakedness.Please shed some light on this.
<<<

No, their physical nakedness could not be a figure of sin before they ever sinned, as that would be a contradiction in "types." You'd have God seeing and saying that all He created was good, while he had (allegedly) created Adam in sin (not good). It's not "what came first, the chicken or the egg," it's "what came first, the uprightness of man or sin?" In other words, in order for man to fall, He "has" to fall from somewhere or something. It's really a question of position. It would be like saying the Rock was a figure of Christ's suffering "before" Moses smote the Rock that water came out. It doesn't work that way. The Rock is a figure of the foundation and strength of God, only after it is smitten by Moses that water come forth does it become the "figure" of the suffering of Christ that will bring forth spiritual waters of salvation. Yes, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world efficacy-wise, but you still cannot put the cart before the horse. Christ still had to come "in time" and be slain on a that fateful day.

Genesis 2:17
That was God making the covenant oath in giving His conditions (law). Sin and die, be righteous and live. The transgression of this covenant (sin) came afterward, and death and separation from God followed. It's not that complicated positionally. i.e., you cannot sin before God declares that you sinned. Sin is abhorrent to God, and had they sinned "in God's eyes" before the fall, it would have been inputed to them and they would have suffered death and been cast out of the garden. "Because" God decrees the definition of sin, not man. And it is His definition of sin that is our authority, not man's.

1st John 3:4
God decrees that sin "is" the transgression of the law. That's what sin is according to our God. And the wages of sin "is" death according to our God. The day that they sinned is the day that they broke the law or covenant of works inherent in disobeying God's conditions. And that is the day that their nakedness came to symbolize man's transgression which "ONLY THEN" had to be covered. Just as the day God wrestled with Jacob, he came to symbolize God's people in Christ, Israel. One day he's Jacob, and the next day he's Israel, but he's still the same man, though now typed as the son of God, Christ (Israel)!

Exodus 4:22
Hosea 11:1
Matthew 2:15
Point being, "types" are created in time, even as Jacob lived a long time before He became the type of the sons of God in Christ, the Israel of God. And this same principle is why Adam and Eve's nakedness didn't bother them (or God) until after they had sinned. Only then were their eyes opened to the fact that they transgressed God's laws (sinned) and only then did they feel that they needed covering. Sin shamed them! God saw that everything He created was good up until the very day Adam sinned. It was sin that corrupted man, the creation, and made nakedness a type of sin. Thus their nakedness was now a shame to them and abhorrent as symbolic of sin to God. That is why only then did Adam and Even need to be separated from God and removed from that Paradise, their nakedness then needing covering. If they were in sin all along (as has been theorized), then God lived with Adam's presence in the Paradise in sin. And God was wrong in declaring that all that He created was good. That cannot be. Paradise was a mirror "representation" of the Paradise of heaven (no sin) until iniquity was found there. Adam and the creation was good only until the day iniquity was found in him, when he transgressed (sinned) against the law of God. God had set conditions (a Covenant conditioned on his works) and Adam broke that covenant by his sin. Thus his only salvation was now the Covenant of Grace, which he received, symbolized by God covering his nakedness.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: servant on May 04, 2005, 09:00:54 AM
Tony can good also mean:::---
Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

can it also mean that when God created everything He had made it was very good,Good for His salvation plan ,good ground for Christ the seed to be sown to save many as in biblical principle Christ was slain before the foundation of this world Rev13:8 ?
Joh 12:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.

Ps 16:6 The lines have fallen to me in pleasant places; Yes, I have a good inheritance. Our inheritance is Christ our savior who saves us from our sins and reconciles us to God.

Mt 11:25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Nothing else can be good other than God Himself as He reveals Himself as our Savior in the person of Christ Jesus. Mt 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

[ Mt 20:15 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?'  The person in this illustration is christ Himself who is good.
Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
 Joh 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Can you shed some light on this

Thanks,
Servant  ;)

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on May 04, 2005, 09:32:35 AM
>>>
Nothing else can be good other than God Himself as He reveals Himself as our Savior in the person of Christ Jesus. Mt 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
<<<

That's not true. Sounds like the same declaration that was made declaring nothing else can be perfect but God, which was equally proven false in the image of God thread (in which this message now resides). Many things can be good, can be perfect, and can be righteous, it simply depends upon the context. We can't just arbitrarily declare words symbolic and spiritual, without substantive meaning. Because once we start down that "slippery slope" there is no end to the adulteration of God's word. It wasn't really a garden, it was really a tree, it wasn't really created in 6 days, the list becomes endless.

Yes, man after the fall "obviously" cannot be good, just as assuredly as man before the fall was the creation of God, and was good. For (as God plainly said) his whole creation that He saw was good. We can't just deny that and arbitrarily say maybe it really doesn't mean what it says, or maybe it wasn't really good after all. We can't just take what He says was created in the image of God and say maybe it wasn't really created in the image of God after all, or what God says was perfect (Ezekiel 28:14-15), and again contradict Him in saying no he wasn't, because in man's finite definitions nothing can be perfect but God. Because that is a blatant denial of God's word.

At any rate, you're continuaing your theme of the "image of God" so I've transfered your messages to that thread, rather than in the "Was Adam and Eve Regenerated" thread.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Bunyan on May 04, 2005, 04:10:07 PM
Tony can good also mean:::---
Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

can it also mean that when God created everything He had made it was very good,Good for His salvation plan ,good ground for Christ the seed to be sown to save many..


We can say good means the woman or good means the tree or good means the good skins God gave Adam for clothes if we are just going to throw stuff out there and see what sticks. But the bible says everything God created was Good, and clearly God was satisfied with it all until Adam sinned.

Wasn't the creation cursed by sin? Do you reject that? I don't know why some people move heaven and hell not to receive the plain sense of the text, but if God didn't say good only means good for his salvation plan, we cannot add it to God's word. And why do you ignore the fact that Adam sinned, and that is why it was no longer good and creation was cursed? It seems quite obvious to me from scripture. We would have to be predisposed to not accept this plain sense of the text to read anything foreign into it.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Rhodarose on June 05, 2005, 03:50:59 AM
Hi All   :)

I am new to this forum but i have to admit I am confused....I started on this thead and read a couple pages and then skipped to the end page so if anyone else came up with this concept I am not aware...

Was Adam Created in God's Image?...

"Adam" may not even be a "name"... but adam means "man"

Ge 1:26-28
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...
male and female created he them.

Woman was taken out of man...but in the beginning they were one, combined, as was God because we are made in the likeness of God...who is male and female, also, combined...in such we get the "us" and "our"

Joh 4:24      God is a Spirit 

...so...we were made in His image...in the beginning...IF God was to walk in front of a mirror what would the image of His Spirit be...?  If we would walk in front of this same mirror, what would our image be...when we were made like Him, in the beginning...?  Spirit!!  Naked!!!  No covering !!!!
and we were not embarrassed because we did not even know it !!!!!  We where invisable...like the wind....

Joh 3:7-8
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 

...and it is hard to tell from the writing if God created more than one in His image and likeness of male and female combined because he said "them" which could mean more than one "adam"...plus, does not an atom divide and split again and again and again till there is many out of just the original one...? 
"Be fruitful, and multiply"
I was not a science wiz but I think that is what does that...atom/adam....I have found that God is no "fool" and in knowing the beginning from the end He knew, with some help from Himself, the "atom" would be named atom so we could get this correlation...He does this with many modern day things if you would notice...like "conseption" a thought developing into a spoken word ..or.. a new life "seed" ...

I have more thoughts on this creation (or two creation) stories but will save them for another post...too much at once is confusing...

Love and Blessings,
Rhoda (http://www.smileys.ws/sm/yahoo/00000040.gif)
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Melanie on January 29, 2017, 12:59:35 AM
Hello everyone,

Let me shed some light on teh discussion going on in this thread....

Those who think that Adam was created in the image of God perfect blameless and holy which only Christ is entitled to don't believe in teh doctrine of predestination.


You've certainly made this thread interesting, but your charge is certainly not true. Those of us who believe that man as created in the image of God believe so because the Bible says so (Ge 1:27). Those of us who believe that man was created perfect believe that because the Bible says so (Eze 28:15). It has nothing to do with man being a deity, or with not believing the doctrine of Predestination. It has to do with believing in the authority of God's word over man's word. We certainly believe in Predestination and the sovereignty of God. You can't use that charge to detract from what these Christians are saying. They are simply telling you what God had inspired written, that man was created in the image of God. Somehow he sinned in the garden and lost that and he is regenerated unto it again in Christ Jesus.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Ro. 8:29"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Melanie on January 29, 2017, 01:00:11 AM
Adam is called the "son of God" because that phrase signifies a covenant believer. It's all about the Covenant and unfortunately so many people don't have any understanding of how Adam, created perfect, under the covenant of works, sinned, was separated from God, and then came under this covenant of grace. Wow, this is a beautiful revelation by God of the Covenant.

 :amen:  Isn't God's word simply marvelous how it works like that? Adam created in the image of God, falling from that image, and in this God painting a picture of man's salvation (return to the image of God) in covenant confirmed by the second Adam, which is Christ. It ust brings you to your knees it's so beautiful and merciful of God. Reformed covenant theology just brings this to light so clearly in God's predestination of hose chosen to it.

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:12-15"

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Melanie on January 29, 2017, 01:01:26 AM
Stacia,

The verses in Ezekiel can refer to only one of two beings...Satan, or Adam?  To which do you contend these words are spoken?  The article on cherubim by Tony Warren is of great help in clearing up the mystery.

Agreed. It can't be Satan because the King of Babylon points to Satan in that scenario.  As someone already pointed out in this thread, you can't have Satan in a battle against Satan. So if it's not Satan, it can only be mankind in Adam who was created perfect in the garden of Eden until iniquity was found in Him.

"And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. Mr. 3:23-26"
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Laura Tomlinson on January 29, 2017, 04:56:58 AM
Was Adam Created in God's Image?...

"Adam" may not even be a "name"... but adam means "man"


Adam both means man and is the name of the first man. We know that because throughout the Bible God references Adam in conjunction with Eve by name. Also in the list of genealogies, Adam is named along with all the other names. If it just meant man in these instances, how could we distinguish Adam from any other man. We'd sat man begat Robert and man begat Richard. It would be confusing.

Genesis 5:3-4
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:"

The days of man weren't 130 years, the days of Adam were. Moreover, what about this verse.

 1 Corinthians 15:45
 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Here again the first man is identified as Adam. Adam was the name of the first man.

Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Philly Dawg on January 30, 2017, 02:08:00 AM
Melanie, This guy Shoan is worse than Trump. God says one thing and he contradicts it and we are left scratching our heads wondering if he really said that or we didn't really hear what we heard. It's ridiculous to argue God didn't create Adam in his image.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Larry on January 30, 2017, 07:01:19 PM
I think he's arguing that God creating man in his own image doesn't mean that man had no sin before the fall. He did say God didn't create man in his own image, but I think he misspoke. But either way, I think he is wrong.
Title: Re: Was Adam Created in God's Image?
Post by: Tony Warren on January 31, 2017, 06:43:02 AM
>>>
I think he's arguing that God creating man in his own image doesn't mean that man had no sin before the fall.
<<<

The wages of sin is death, and the day they sinned or transgressed God's law, is the day they died. If the wage of sin is death, and it is alleged they sinned before, why no death before the fall? It clearly has to be because there was no wages earned, no sin. God caused Adam to remain in the Garden of Eden, the paradise of God, until iniquity (sin) was found in Him. That was the fall. So yes, that does mean that man had no sin before God prior to the fall. It is written, as in Adam, all die. His sin stained mankind forever. The mercy is, in Christ shall all be made alive. His payment of the wage of sin, for His people, restores us to the image of God we lost in Adam's "original sin."

So then, Adam died because the wages of sin is death. We live because Christ paid the wages of sin for us.


Quote
>>>
He did say God didn't create man in his own image, but I think he misspoke.
<<<

That's gracious but if so, he misspoke again and again. His whole premise was, "Adam Was Not Created in God's Image." I could be wrong, but I don't see how that is misspeaking. Misspeaking is defined as speaking or pronouncing words incorrectly, not actually meaning what you said. I think it was clear from his many posts that he meant that Man was not created in God's image. Thus I don't think it qualifies as misspeaking.

Quote
>>>
But either way, I think he is wrong.
<<<

On that we agree, contradicting everything he postulated about "man not being created in God's image."

Genesis 1:26

There can be no doubt, Man was ceated in God's image, if Scripture is the final authority on what God actually says. Unfortunately, in our day, man has become the final arbiter of what is law.



"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"