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Author Topic: Who are the 144,000  (Read 378 times)

Manuel

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Who are the 144,000
« on: February 10, 2018, 11:31:21 AM »
Please explain the 144,000 with their father's name stamped upon their forehead. Israel, the church, both or a part of either of them?

Erik Diamond

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 02:16:58 PM »
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Manuel

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 01:02:21 AM »
Thanks Erik

Drew

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 06:34:26 AM »
Better to read the text than thank the liberal amillennial teachers who might distort it.

Reelation 7:4
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

There you have your answer. It is those Jews of all the tribes in the land of Israel. You don't need to listen to liberals.

David Knoles

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 12:15:09 PM »
144,000 (spiritual)

Manuel. Erik and Tony have been perpetratuing this liberal myth for years, and there are various liberal and Roman catholic speculations about the number 144,000 being spiritual but most recognized Bible scholars agree that the number 144,000 and the listing of the twelve tribes of Israel are literal and are to be understood exactly as it is written.

Tony Warren

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2018, 02:45:48 PM »
>>>
Manuel. Erik and Tony have been perpetratuing this liberal myth for years,
<<<

What is really a myth is thinking that only 144,000 of all Israel are literally going to be saved, or that the number 144,000 is symbolic (a spiritual number) but that they are still tribes from the nation of Israel literally. That's like attempting to have your cake and eat it too. As always, one of the best rules to a sound Hermeneutic is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error." Moreover:

Revelation 7:9
  • "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Your reasoning would mean that of the nation of Israel only literally 144,000 are saved, but of the Gentiles were saved a great multitude that no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. Considering your Dispensational doctrine of the Nation of Israel being the center of salvation, how is that possible, coherent, consistent, logical or harmonious with the rest of your teachings. Again, one of the best rules to a sound system of interpretation is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."


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>>>
...and there are various liberal and Roman catholic speculations about the number 144,000 being spiritual
<<<


Liberals and Roman Catholics? You want to throw in seditionist, cults and traitors?  )S_Confused(

In a book that is clearly filled with imagery and great symbolism, and a narrative where precisely 12,000 from every tribe (minus 2) are saved, what on earth would make you think that this number would be literal? Is it the four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, or the fact that they hold the four winds of the earth so that it would not blow on the earth, sea and trees? Or is that they they had washed their robes in Christ's blood, and that's how they are so white? Nothing about this whole narrative is literal. The white robes made white by blood "SYMBOLIZE" the righteousness of Christ, they aren't literal white robes, this is spiritual imagery illustrating something much more relevant than literal white robes.

Isaiah 61:10
  • "I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels."

You guys with your smear tactics and talking points have got to stop privately interpreting the Bible and start allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves. That means Jews are who the word of God says they are, Israel is who the word of God says it is and the robes we are clothed in is what God's word says it is. So if Israel is who God says Israel is, then there are obviously more than a mere 144,000, and if 12,000 is a symbolic number then all Israel shall be saved as it is written (Romans 11). Not as you suppose..


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>>>
...but most recognized Bible scholars agree that the number 144,000 and the listing of the twelve tribes of Israel are literal and are to be understood exactly as it is written.
<<<

Most recognized Bible Scholars? hmmmmmm. Are you aware that most recognized Bible scholars of Christ's day agreed that he was a false Messiah? So, what did that mean regarding the interpretation of Scriptures showing Christ was king of a Spiritual Kingdom, not a physical/literal one? Where are all those Bible scholars now and why were they so wrong in looking for a King to literally free them from Roman rule? How did they miss that he came to free them from spiritual rule? i.e., consensus had never been the righteous arbiter of what is true and what is not. Why on earth do you think that Christ said:

Matthew 7:14
  • "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

The consensus is the many, not the few.

Luke 6:22-23
  • "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
  • Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

Do you think that I expect to be in concord with Dispensationalists, or have the consensus of the world's beloved, or be exalted because I submit that interpretations belong to God and not Bible Scholars? On the contrary, I would be very concerned about what I have learned if all these scholars were to speak well of what I am saying.

Luke 6:26
  • "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

Since when has God's faithful ever been spoken well of? As Christ said, they speak well of the false prophets, not the faithful ones. For the record, the Bible scholars of Christ's day sought to have Him killed? What did their consensus get them?

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

William B

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 06:09:07 AM »

 )Goodpoint(  Good stuff!

David Knoles

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 08:23:05 AM »
Your reasoning would mean that of the nation of Israel only literally 144,000 are saved, but of the Gentiles were saved a great multitude that no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. Considering your Dispensational doctrine of the Nation of Israel being the center of salvation, how is that possible, coherent, consistent, logical or harmonious with the rest of your teachings.

Could you be anymore mean spirited. Dispensationalism is the standard and accepted doctrine of the Christian church, not something that is unorthodox like Amillennialism.

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Liberals and Roman Catholics? You want to throw in seditionist, cults and traitors?  )S_Confused(

No need to be rude. Your teaching is liberal and Amillennialism came from out of Roman Catholicism. Don't get worked up because I bring to light the little secret of Reformed Theology.


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You guys with your smear tactics and talking points have got to stop privately interpreting the Bible and start allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

Us guys? Smear tactics? Talking points? Sounds like liberal jargon to me. Defending conservative values and doctrines and theology based on a literal understanding is not smear tactics. It's what most Christians do. You are a minority opinion and although you try to make it sound like that's not important, it is.

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That means Jews are who the word of God says they are, Israel is who the word of God says it is and the robes we are clothed in is what God's word says it is.

Now we have sarcasm? You can't win by discussion so you resort to demeaning those who disagree with you?


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Most recognized Bible Scholars?


Yes, and you are not among them.


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As Christ said, they speak well of the false prophets, not the faithful ones.

You speak well of Luther, Calvin and Bunyan. Reformer, Eric and Melanie. Does that mean they are false prophets?


Jesse

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Re: Who are the 144,000
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2018, 09:19:58 AM »
Considering your Dispensational doctrine of the Nation of Israel being the center of salvation, how is that possible, coherent, consistent, logical or harmonious with the rest of your teachings. Again, one of the best rules to a sound system of interpretation is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."



Interesting reading here of the Dispensational Tree: http://poweredbychrist.homestead.com/files/history/Timeline.htm


 


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