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Author Topic: Did God Create Evil?  (Read 27944 times)

Joe Johnson

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #165 on: February 01, 2018, 09:39:45 AM »
Don't make out as if it's all so cut and dried. How do you answer this article on the subject.

http://www.learnthebible.org/fallen-angels.html

A lot of people have a lot of ideas, what makes yours so much more acceptable?

Mila Ostrovsky

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #166 on: February 02, 2018, 07:12:32 AM »
Don't make out as if it's all so cut and dried. How do you answer this article on the subject.

http://www.learnthebible.org/fallen-angels.html

4. The devils. The devils are never called fallen angels. They have attributes that are never attributed to angels.

If the Devils are not fallen angels, then you have to answer what they are and who created them if they are beings? The more this link tries to explain this, the more contradictions and questions arise and the more we see it's unsound and not true. What are Devils, if not fallen angels?
 )anyone(

Maybe the best answer is the simplest answer. The Devils are never called fallen angels because they are not fallen angels. They are the wicked spirits of fallen man, created or conceived by man.


Erik Diamond

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #167 on: February 05, 2018, 02:23:23 PM »
Quote
Maybe the best answer is the simplest answer. The Devils are never called fallen angels because they [size=0px]are not[/size] fallen angels. They are the wicked spirits of fallen man, created or conceived by man[size=0px].[/size]
)amen(
Rev 18:2
[2]  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Babylon the great is the fallen congregation of God. She was once ruled by faithful Saints before the false prophets and christs with spirit of disobedience starting to take over with lying signs and wonders that deceive many. They are the Devils!  Through them, the congregation has become a home of spiritual unfaithfulness. The more people they deceive over short time, the congregation has become apostasy to the point of desolation - the abomination of desolation - something that the Saints can "see."

They are of the same generation of evil that killed the prophets and saints.  They are the UNFAITHFUL family of God's congregation who have killed God's Elect, whether by physically killing or by testimony (silence the truthful testimony). Nothing to do with created beings or fallen angels.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2018, 01:25:52 AM »
Gen 2:8-9
[8]  And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9]  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


We have discussed the serpent but when I was reading about the trees. I was interested to know more.  In verse 9, EVERY TREE that grew out of ground was good for Adam to eat.

However, there was also a tree of life in the midst of the garden which God warned Adam NOT to eat.  So does that means the tree of life did not grow from the ground? Is it a natural tree?

And were the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil the one and the same?

I was curious to know what you think.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Rick Reeves

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2018, 05:09:54 AM »
What's those two little lines say?

Melanie

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #170 on: February 07, 2018, 05:52:52 AM »
What's those two little lines say?

Erik's using some kind of fonts that don't work in this forum. I would suggest as a temporary work around to just hit quote, then you can read it, then backspace and reply if you want to answer.


Reformed Baptist

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2018, 07:16:50 AM »
However, there was also a tree of life in the midst of the garden which God warned Adam NOT to eat. 

God said that the tree of life was in the middle of the garden. God does not say that about the tree of knowledge. I believe this is because Life is our center of the paradise of God, and that tree symbolizes Christ. We are not told what type of tree either was, but I think we know that it  symbolizes Christ.

"For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." Proverbs 2:6

Christ is the only tree from where man can receive life, and the tree of wisdom and knowledge.


Quote
So does that means the tree of life did not grow from the ground? Is it a natural tree?

From all I read the tree of life was a literal tree that grew in the center of the garden and it symbolized Christ.


Quote
And were the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil the one and the same?
I was curious to know what you think.

I think they were both natural trees in the garden, and they symbolized Christ. Christ is life the center of our existence and Christ is knowledge and wisdom. God had prepared even from the beginning the way of escape when we would sin.

Dan

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #172 on: February 07, 2018, 11:25:35 AM »
You say Scripture interprets scripture, but then where does it say the tree of life is symbolic of Christ?

Tony Warren

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #173 on: February 11, 2018, 02:24:38 PM »
>>>
Tony tells you it's symbolism, not God.
<<<


Isaiah 14:4
  • "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

Does Tony tell you that's symbolism or does the context and your own logical (at times) reasoning bring you to that conclusion? The very fact that the text says this is speaking of "the King of Babylon," and that it plainly tells us it's a proverb, and that you clearly "think" it symbolically speaks of Satan, illustrates vividly that "you know" that it's symbolic and you read and understand it that way--until the time comes when you want to argue that it's not. How is it referring to Satan in your view if it;'s not symbolic of him? Does your retort then fall into the category of deceit, or am I just obtuse? You tell me, what am I missing here?

Psalms 119:118
  • 'Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood."

As always, "inconsistency is the hallmark of error."  i.e., you can't have it both ways where it's symbolic when you want and not when you don't want.


Quote
>>>
 You don't understand, when God says angel he means angel.
<<<

But that's just it. God NEVER said angel and that is a fact that cannot be denied. He never said it and He never inspired that word to be written in Scripture. The words that He inspired were [mal'ak] which is a Old Testament Hebrew word meaning "messenger," and [aggelos] which is a New Testament Greek word meaning messenger. No Prophets, Old or New Testament, would have ever said the word "angels" in reference to the messengers of God. They said messenger.  Even as Malachi called Christ the messenger of the Covenant. Not the Angel of the Covenant.

So then, you don't understand, when God doesn't say angel he doesn't mean angel. Translations notwithstanding. Selah.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Erik Diamond

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #174 on: February 12, 2018, 02:29:58 PM »

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is Jesus Christ Himself who had a contend with the devil over the body of Moses.  Whose devil was this? Moses'?  Many people said that the devil is an intelligent (created) being that Michael was having a discussion with but we know that the devil is a spirit created by man so why did Christ contending with him after Moses died?



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Kenneth White

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #175 on: February 13, 2018, 07:29:46 AM »

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is Jesus Christ Himself who had a contend with the devil over the body of Moses. 

Yes. This is very strange, since the event that Jude recounts does not at all appear to be drawn from the Old Testament. There isn't anything remotely like this in the Old Testament, which makes me think that it's a New Testament occurrence. I have yet to see a acceptable answer on this event from any theological source.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dan

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #176 on: February 13, 2018, 12:59:14 PM »

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is Jesus Christ Himself who had a contend with the devil over the body of Moses. 

Yes. This is very strange, since the event that Jude recounts does not at all appear to be drawn from the Old Testament. There isn't anything remotely like this in the Old Testament, which makes me think that it's a New Testament occurrence. I have yet to see a acceptable answer on this event from any theological source.

This part of the bible might not be true or may have been added improperly. See what the Barnes commentary says about it. No one really knows what it means.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Yet Michael the archangel ... - This verse has given more perplexity to expositors than any other part of the Epistle; and in fact the difficulties in regard to it have been so great that some have been led to regard the Epistle as spurious. The difficulty has arisen from these two circumstances:
(1) Ignorance of the origin of what is said here of Michael the archangel, nothing of this kind being found in the Old Testament; and,

(2) the improbability of the story itself, which looks like a mere Jewish fable.

Tony Warren

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2018, 06:46:22 AM »
>>>
Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against himF a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is Jesus Christ Himself who had a contend with the devil over the body of Moses.  Whose devil was this? Moses'?
<<<

The Devil is everyone's adversary, and doesn't belong to anyone. He is the rebellious spirit within mankind that holds him in bondage to sin. He is the antichrist spirit that opposes the Kingdom of God. This spirit has always been in the world (since the fall), was bound at the cross for the sake of the nations, and will be unrestrained in the world as judgment in the last days. When Christ contends and disputes with the Devil, He contends and disputes with the spirit of false Priests, Teachers, Prophets and Messengers. This is that evil spirit that works in the children of disobedience and is offended in Christ Jesus. When we read that Christ disputed with the Devil, He is contending with mankind that is in opposition to His kingdom. They are those who have this antichrist spirit to resist, obstruct and speak against Christ. The question is, what spirit opposed Christ and denied His office as chief Messenger of the Covenant? Indeed the larger question is, who is the spirit of antichrist?

1st John 4:3
  • "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

According to God's definition of the term, all those who deny Christ as Savior is Antichrist. So what spirit contended with Christ about the body of Moses? Was it a Red supernatural man with horns or was it man with a lawless spirit? The very context of Jude tells us that the word of God is speaking about men who would always gainsay and resist God.

Jude 1:8-10
  • "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
  • Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
  • But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

This refers to Old Covenant Israel whom Christ called the children of the Devil, and how He opened not His mouth against them (although He was the chief messenger) when He was reviled, accused, spoken evil against, persecuted and brought before magistrates. Because He came as the suffering servant to confirm the Covenant before many. This language of Christ not rebuking Satan is taken from

Zechariah 3:1-3
  • "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
  • And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
  • Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel."

This prophesies of the coming of Christ and how He would cleanse the Lord's servants by taking away their filthy garments bringing them righteousness. The spirit Satan opposed Christ through the leaders of Old Covenant Israel who did everything in their power to resist Him, His kingdom and reign. This is that same spirit of Satan that Christ contended with regarding the body of Moses. It was all those with the spirit of disobedience who rejected Him, His kingdom and Covenant revelation and indeed sought to kill Him because of His teachings concerning this Kingdom. The pertinent questions here are, who is Michael the archangel (Christ, the chief Messenger), when did He contend with the Devil (at the time of His first advent), what is the significance of the body of Moses (the Old Testament Covenant), what is Satan's main modus operandi in opposing Christ (the nature of the Kingdom), what Scriptures support this conclusion (Zechariah, Revelation 12, Jude and Matthew among others) and what was Christ disputing with the evil spirit and adversary about? It was the same thing the Apostle Paul was disputing with the Judaizers about--the very nature and makeup of the law of Moses, Covenant, Kingdom, Reign and Messiah.

Acts 17:17
  • "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him."

The dispute with antichrist is always about the Kingdom of Christ because it is the spirit that opposes all that Christ stands for. The Kingdom wasn't taken from Israel for nothing, it was taken away "because" they opposed and rejected the Messiah of the Bible as God breathed head of that Kingdom. Every spirit that will not confess that Jesus come in the flesh as the prophesied Messaih and ruler of Israel is that spirit of antichrist. Yes, that's unpalatable to some, but it is a Biblical fact. Moreover, what is also a Biblical fact is that these are the people who Christ contended and disputed with about God's law and Covenant with Israel. In reality it was two houses coming against each other. The body of Moses vs the body of Christ. The Old Covenant vs the New. The Law vs Grace. The carnal/physical vs the Spiritual. Jerusalem of this world or heavenly Jerusalem. The list is endless.

#1. Who is the archangel, Michael -  Christ is the chief Messenger of the Covenant, translated arch (chief) and angel (messenger) in the New Testament as found in Revelation chapter 12.

Malachi 3:1
  • "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

The word translated messenger there and speaking of Christ, is the same word translated angel. The title "Michael" illustrates God with us, and is Hebrew meaning "who is God," from [mi] meaning who, [ki] meaning because and by extension "is," and [el] meaning "God." Mi'ki'el the chief Messenger of the Covenant. Michael or God with us is the chief messenger of the covenant, and the [aggelos] who fought with Him are the Apostles his servant messengers of the congregation. As I said, two houses with only one victorious.

#2. Who is The Devil - The Devil is the adversarial spirit that rules fallen man and opposes the Lord at every turn. This spirit is called by many names, such as Satan, Antichrist, Baal, Serpent, Dragon, etc. The adversarial spirit in man to disobey is the Devil.

1st Peter 5:8
  • "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

Just as the king was the adversary when He sought to devour the baby Jesus as soon a it was born, but the wise men warned of the Lord thwarted his plans. The spirit of antichrist reveals himself within men, it's not some supernatural being the stuff that bad exorcist or fallen angel movies are made of. The only exorcism of the evil spirit is through the gospel of Christ via the Holy Spirit that moves that Devil spirit from our person that the spirit of Christ dwell there.


#3. When did Christ or Michael contend or dispute with the Devil - It was at the first advent of Christ, when many messengers were cast out of the Kingdom of Israel, even likened unto stars falling from heaven.

Revelation 12:7-7
  • "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
  • And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation chapter 12 makes it clear that this contending took place at the time of Christ's first advent when the devil was casting down the ruling stars (messengers) of this woman (Israel) out of the kingdom.

Matthew 23:13
  • "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

Christ understood that these messengers were an adversary to the Kingdom. The heads or messengers of Israel were contending with Christ and shutting up His kingdom against men, and this was what is symbolized as the war in the kingdom of heaven that resulted in the messengers being cast out. The warfare in Jerusalem (Isaiah 40:2) that Christ came to put an end to.

Matthew 11:12
  • "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

It was because of this reason that the child Jesus was born of the woman Israel. That the violence of her warfare (against God) might come to an end and her iniquity might be pardoned. Indeed it was this prophesy in Isaiah that spoke of the end of this violence in the coming of John the Baptist to herald Christ's appearance.

Isaiah 40:2-3
  • "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

The voice of him that was crying in the wilderness was John the Baptist. Christ contended with the Devil when He contended with the messengers of Israel who had the spirit of antichrist. Traditions notwithstamnding, they were the messengers of heaven led by the Dragon, resisting the chief messenger and practicing rebellion in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:13
  • "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

This is the dispute. This is the contention. It is not literal heaven these messengers were in, but Revelation illustrates in symbolic imagery the kingdom of heaven on earth. Exactly as Christ's parables of the Kingdom of heaven illustrates vividly. The Dragon attempted to destroy the man child as soon as it was born through the king on earth, not as beast in heaven standing before a pregnant woman floating in space.

Matthew 2:3-4
  • "When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
  • And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born."
Matthew 2:16
  • "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men."

The Serpent within man attempted to destroy the child Christ as soon as it was born--on earth, not as a Dragon in heaven. The Dragon imagery is to illustrate this.

#4. What is the body of Moses - The body of Moses represents the Old Covenant law, just as the body of Christ represents the New Covenant grace. Moses symbolizes the law and Christ symbolizes grace. When Christ contended with (or more accurately opposed) the adversary, it was with regards to Old Covenant Israel. That through Him, Israel was a Spiritual kingdom that was no longer under the law called Moses, but under grace (the law being dead).

Acts 15:5
  • "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

The body of Moses was a house that was to keeping the law. This verse shows there were those even on the church side that supposed that the servants of God had to keep of the law of Moses as necessary to salvation.  But under the New Covenant with Israel, the hief Messenger of the Covenant established the end of the law of Moses. i.e., with the coming of the true, the shadow that prefigured it is passed away.

Romans 10:4-5
  • "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
  • For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

Christ contended with the Devil by contending with those messengers of the Old Covenant who to this day continue to insist on salvation by law.

#5. What is the significance of the body of Moses - The same significance as of the body of Christ. It is a Covenant reference signifying the Lord's promise to His people Israel in the Old and New Dispensation. In other words, in the Old Covenant dispensation Moses brought the people of Israel out of bondage of Egypt and led them to the Promised land physically, but only as a "FIGURE," skia or shadow of the true deliverer of Israel. That's why the children of Israel couldn't enter into the Promised land until after Moses had died, for he represented Old Covenant law. i.e., the significance of the body of Moses is its likeness or imagery of the body of Christ.

Acts 7:36-37
  • "He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
  • This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me; him shall ye hear."

Thus the body of Moses signifies the Old Covenant, and the body of Christ the new Covenant. The old was as the school teacher, the new is the true wherein men may be saved. Indeed, God's word speaks of these two bodies as houses in Hebrews chapter 3. The house of Moses and the house of Christ.

Heb 3:5-6
  • "And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
  • But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Two houses representing the two Covenants with God's people, only one bringing true deliverance to Israel. This is what Christ contended with those Judaizers who opposed Him. Physical bondage against spiritual bondage, physical rest against spiritual rest, physical kingdom against spiritual kingdom, physical reign against spiritual reign, physical Jew against spiritual Jew, physical war and swords against spiritual warfare, etc. These are the things that were (and still are) in dispute with Israel. And in the end, the builders with the spirit of disobedience lost the kingdom because of that contention or dispute with, and rejection of Christ.


#6. What Scriptures support this conclusion? Actually, all Scripture supports this conclusion. Revelation chapter 12 gives the broad strokes, but throughout the Bible God demonstrates both the continuity and the disconnect between Old Covenant and New, between Law and Grace, between those who are with Him, and those who fight against Him.

Hebrews 8:13
  • "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

The Old Covenant outward appearance of the legal administration was to illustrate our helplessness, but the ruling Jews insisted it is a path to righteousness. Likewise, the nation of Israel, the fabric of the temple, he great stones of Gold and Pearls, the beautiful ornaments of the Priests, etc, all had a glory in them that pointed to the true riches. The Old Testament messengers took offense to any idea of the spiritual nature of Israel and the Kingdom. Much as Dispensationalism today that also oppose the spiritual nature of the Kingdom, Jerusalem, Israel, the Jews, the reign and so on. The point is, the shadow which was the body of Moses  is passed away in the establishment of the true in the body of Christ.


Quote
>>>
Many people said that the devil is an intelligent (created) being that Michael was having a discussion with but we know that the devil is a spirit created by man so why did Christ contending with him after Moses died?
<<<

No scripture says the Devil is an intelligent created being, Scripture is clear the Devil is an evil spirit. The language of Christ contending with the Devil about the body of Moses has nothing to do with Moses' physical body, which is a pile of dust in the earth. It has to do with Old Covenant Israel and their lack of understanding of the law of Moses being a schoolteacher. To think it speaks literally of Moses body is a theater of the absurd. What has Satan to do with the literal body of Moses?

Deuteronomy 34:5-6
  • "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
  • And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day."

The physical body of Moses has no significance to the spirit of evil or anyone else, it is a pile of dust in the ground. The body of Moses in view is the Old Covenant, which in Christ Jesus has decayed and waxed old just as surely as the Body of Moses did (Hebrews 8:13) to make way for the new. The body of Moses in dispute by Christ is Old Covenant Israel, which Christ contended no man could be saved by his own righteousness in keeping the law. Justification by the law is what was in dispute in Israel.

Acts 13:39
  • "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

When Christ contended with the adversaries it was about their ideas about the Covenant of Israel and the law of justification. The body of Moses is the house of Moses the same as the body of Christ is the house of Christ. Moses representing the Old Covenant law through sacrifices and offerings, which they didn't understand saved no one. All of God's chosen were actually saved by the body of Christ, in whom the law of Moses was satisfied/fulfilled. The Old Testament angels (messengers) of the kingdom didn't understand that justification was not now or ever had been, by law of Moses, but by the righteousness in faith of Christ.

Hebrews 10:5-10
  • "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
  • In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
  • Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
  • Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
  • Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
  • By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

This is what was always in dispute in Israel of Christ's adversaries. It wasn't through the law of Moses that the children of Israel were saved, but the body and deliverance of Moses merely prefigured the body and deliverance of Christ, the true who would come to satisfy the law in a New Covenant with Israel.

Romans 8:3
  • "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

The law of Moses could not save Israel, but the law of Christ could. The Old Covenant house of Israel is passed away, and the body of Christ refers to the New Covenant House of Israel established upon better promises.

Christians should ask themselves, "Why would Michael (Christ) dispute with the Devil about the LITERAL body of Moses?" What's to be disputed? The whole idea makes no sense because man's literal body of flesh is but ashes or dust. And as for the Spiritual body of Moses, the Devil has no authority, sway or control over. For him to dispute that would be ludicrous. Of course there has been much conjecture, speculations and personal opinions in the church on the subject, but none of the guesses based solidly on the Bible alone. The significance of Moses’ body is that the Jews disputed with Christ about the methodology of righteousness, the nature of the kingdom and the purpose of the law. They could not understand the Old Covenant versus the New, or that the law was dead in the New Covenant kingdom of Christ. They didn't understand that only in Christ's house, in Christ's body, is Israel actually set free from captivity and able to enter into the promised land. This was also prefigured in Moses death (law) when the children of Israel physically entered into the physical land promised them. As a type of Christ it could only be after the death of Moses "signifying" the move from law to grace, as He was was a portrait of Christ.

Joshua 1:1-2
  • "Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
  • Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel."

Likewise, we are dead to the law, and thus are free in the body of Christ to enter into the Spiritual promised land of Israel. The Devil disputed this in the Priests, Scribe, Pharisees and rulers of the kingdom were vexed by this teaching, and the messengers of the Kingdom rejected this and were summarily cast out.

Luke 19:45-46
  • "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
  • Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."

Christ's words are pointing us back to the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning the rebellion of the messengers of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah 7:11-12
  • "Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
  • But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel."

These are the messengers of the kingdom of heaven that were cast down to the earth. The adversary that persecuted the woman with child was working within the King who sought to kill the Baby Jesus. These are those moved of the Devil to who dispute and contend with Christ about the body of Moses (the Old Covenant congregation) concerning righteousness, the kingdom, Israel and their Messiah. The Stone that the builders rejected is become head of the corner because the builders were cast out and the kingdom restored and given to another. It had nothing to do with a Physical Temple being destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days. Likewise, this has nothing whatsoever to do with a physical body of Moses which had long ago returned to the dust. I believe it refers to the entire Old Covenant Mosaic liturgical system that has ended and the dispute with and rejection of the Christ that told them these things.

Matthew 21:42-46
  • "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  • And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
  • And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
  • But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

Indeed He did speak of them as messengers of the Kingdom of heaven that disputed with and opposed Him. Indeed He spoke of how they would be cast out of the kingdom and it be given to the Gentiles who would bring forth the fruit thereof. Christ did speak on how their ideas about the law of Moses, the physical land, righteousness, physical Kingdom on earth and a Messiah that would reign on earth in Physical Israel, was without Biblical validation. The law of Moses never prophesied any of these things, their dispute with Him about these things notwithstanding.

One might then ask, why do we read that the Lord did not bring a railing accusation against the adversary, but said, "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 9). This is because Christ came as the suffering Servant and Savior, not the judge. This confirmed by Christ Himself in John chapter 12.

John 12:47
  • "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
  • He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

He that rejected Christ and that would not receive His words were those with the Devil disputing the truth. The word of God He had Spoken is what judges the adversary. The word of God that they rejected because they had the spirit of antichrist to oppose Him about the house or body of Moses.

 
"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2018, 07:29:48 AM »
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This part of the bible might not be true or may have been added improperly.
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There's no chance of that because man cannot harmonize Scripture with Scripture from start to finish. He's finite. Moreover, they say the same thing about Mark chapter 16, but a careful study of both, comparing Scripture with Scripture and with an eye to allowing it to interpret itself in harmony with the whole of the Bible, will reveal that they both are divinely inspired writings and in actuality do fit perfectly with the rest of Scripture. One thing I have come to understand over the years is that when the natural man hears new things that he does not (or cannot) understand, he tends to dismiss them as false, spurious, contrived, nonsense or unorthodox. I rather tend to search them out in Scripture to see if those things are true or not.

Acts 17:11-12
  • "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
  • Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

Here is our example. Christians are obliged to receive testimony with a open mind, search what is said with what is written throughout Scripture, hopefully without prejudice,  and in a noble (honest) consideration of the Biblical facts as related to the subject at hand, make sound judgments. Even as these more honest Bereans did when the Apostle Paul told them things their Jewish tradition contradicted. By the Spirit of truth we should all have a earnest and sincere desire to be taught correctly (John 7:17) regardless of what we were told before. The book of Toibit is spurious, the book of Baruch is spurious, the Apocryphal books are spurious, Jude is not. Not because I say so, but because they testify of themselves that they are true, if we will receive it. No P.hd Required. We prove or try the spirits, whether they be Christ or the Devil, by trying the things and doctrines they teach.


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(1) Ignorance of the origin of what is said here of Michael the archangel, nothing of this kind being found in the Old Testament;
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That's the lazy man's solution to difficult Scriptures. To cast doubt upon them because of their own personal inability. But ignorance of origination or comprehension is never a legitimate excuse to "assume" something written in Scripture is spurious or fake.


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(2) the improbability of the story itself, which looks like a mere Jewish fable.
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"Looks like" or appearances are never a legitimate excuse to "assume" something written in Scripture is spurious of fake.

My (3) woould be, ...neither is the fact that one does not understand what it means. That's akin to agnostics throwing up their hands and bemoaning "where is truth" as if it's impossible to tell. With scholarship like "it looks like a Jewish fable," it's no wonder it appears a mystery to so many.


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No one really knows what it means.
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I would disagree. I would say the problem often arises when Christians constantly, regardless of context, attempt to look at things very literally without regard to the rest of the bible or comparing the spiritual with the spiritual. It's human nature, but the human nature is (by nature) carnal, not spiritual. And many professing Christians grieve the Spirit in their worldly inclinations.

1st Corinthians 2:11-14
  • "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
  • Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
  • Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
  • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Without the Spirit of God we know things in man's wisdom, but not the truth in the wisdom of Christ. With the Spirit of God we come to realize that we actually don't know half of the things we "thought" we knew. All glory to God for the little we do know.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2018, 12:54:28 PM »
Thank you for your response, Tony. I will mediate on this with Scripture.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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