[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Did God Create Evil?  (Read 29402 times)

Layla

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2003, 07:33:04 PM »
Greetings Bear and Judy

Quote
Chicago Bear is right.

I think so too.  Thank you Judy for sharing your thoughts and those scriptures with me and for your encouragement.

Peace,
Layla

faustina

  • Guest
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2003, 08:51:05 PM »
God created Free will in all of us, we decide if we choose to be good or evil.

 The devil himself had Free Will and chose to serve himself rather than God.

  We all we choosen by God to be saved. It is up to us to follow Gods will rather than our own.  If we have true Faith in Christ then we are the good shepards that follow his voice and do his will.

 It is up to us to follow him or not.  God can get rid of evil in his time when he chooses to do so with his plan for all of humanity.

Faustina

SamoanOnion

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • Smiley Pimp
    • 4 HIS Glory
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2003, 08:14:05 PM »
Quote
Praise God! This is wonderful and answers so much for me also!

Thank you all! I am going to copy this into my notes if it is OK.

yea, me too, I posted this thread on my forums because thats where I keep me notes, hope its ok.  I won't post a link to it so as not to advertise, but I do have a link back to the orginal post here.  just in case the Admin has a prob, just let me know and I can remove it from my forum.
~CS Out~

Layla

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2003, 11:40:29 PM »
Greetings Tony

How would you respond to the following:

"No one, we believe, will contend that the devil is self existent. He was created by God. If he introduced evil and sin into the universe contrary to the purpose and plan of God, then God made a mistake in creating him. This is sin. Everyone who seeks to shield God from the effects of His own creation by transferring the blame to one of His creatures is effectually accomplishing the very thing which he is seeking to avoid. We need not fear to face the issue. God is well able to defend His own honor. If the original plan of the universe included no such enemy as Satan has turned out to be, if sin was a surprise for which no provision was originally made, then, indeed, God has sinned, or failed, in the fullest force of that word.

If, on the other hand, we take God at His word, that all is out of Him, and He is the Creator of the Slanderer, and that it was His purpose that this creature should not only sin but involve others in its toils, and that sin will be repudiated when its object has been accomplished--then, and then only can we rest in the assurance that God has not failed, or sinned.

That God had sin in view before it entered its destructive career is evident from the fact that He provided a sacrifice for it in advance. Why should He speak of the Lamb slain from the disruption of the world (Revelation 13:8, AV, "foundation") unless, even before that time, He not only recognized, but actually purposed its existence? "

Peace,
Layla


Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2187
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2003, 03:15:49 AM »
>>>
Greetings Tony

How would you respond to the following:

"No one, we believe, will contend that the devil is self existent. He was created by God. If he introduced evil and sin into the universe contrary to the purpose and plan of God, then God made a mistake in creating him. This is sin....
<<<

This post sounds like word for word from Adolph E. Knoch's book, is it? I certainly don't agree with his premises. How would I respond? I wouldn't. I try not to think that I have all the mysteries of the infinite God figured out. But as far as this part is concerned, it's circular reasoning. Like if God created Satan, and Satan became evil, then God created evil because God is sovereign? ..uhh, No! It's akin to people who ask, "if God can do anything, can he make a rock so big that he can't lift it?"

(1.)If He can't, then He's not all powerful.
(2.)If He can and He can't lift it, then He's not all-powerful.
(3.)If He can and He can lift it, then He's also not all powerful, because He wasn't powerful enough to make a Rock so big He couldn't lift it.

Besides self-aggrandizement, I don't see the point in getting into those type puffery 'intellectual' arguments of circular reasoning, and endless 'point and counter-points,' which beside stroking my ego, would accomplish nothing substantial. ..at least that's my opinion.

I will say this. God didn't introduce sin and evil into the world, as He "CANNOT" sin nor does He tempt us with sin. If we believe His words, that He doesn't tempt us to sin or evil, then we "Receive" that as truth. So all conclusions derived from that faulty starting premise, are automatically flawed. God being sovereign, does not mean that God, before the world began, purposed to create and tempt man with sin, that he would fall. Yeah, I'm sure I could write a 300 page book intricately explaining how he did, and yet also didn't, but what good would that do for the spreading of the gospel? God created man "knowing" that He would fall into sin, and God provided a Saviour to His glory. There "is" a difference.


Quote
>>>
If, on the other hand, we take God at His word,
<<<

We do. God cannot sin, God cannot purpose to tempt men with sin. Not before the world began, not yesterday and not today. His pure Holiness and inability to sin is part of His intrinsic nature, so that it is impossible for Him to purpose that man would sin "in any way" whatsoever.

Hebrews 4:15
  • "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

God is the only being who is without sin, and being so, He could not have introduced sin into the world that man would fall. Indeed, as you so riightly say, "if we take God at His Word". As I posted before, God declares He can't asin nor tempt man to sin. God says man does it of his own lusts and desires. Did God give him the ability to lust and be drawn away and enticed? Of course.

James 1:13-14
  • "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
  • But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

God not only is Holy and "cannot sin," He also cannot tempt us with sin or evil 'that we should fall'. These things should be a given in Christianity. If God cannot tempt man with sin that he should fall, then in His sovereignty, He did not purpose to tempt man with sin, that he fell. So let no Christian say that.

Likewise, when we have God's spirit in us, being regenerated, we also cannot sin, because we are reborn of God, and are thus accounted pure, righteous, without spot before God.

1st John 3:9
  • "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."


Quote
>>>
...that all is out of Him, and He is the Creator of the Slanderer,
<<<

God created Adam perfect also. Yet Adam sinned because he had the ability to do so. Man was created with a will. Of course God had foreknowledge of all this, so He made provision for an election. That doesn't mean that God sinned or (as this author put it) that God made a mistake somehow if He didn't purpose it. There was no mistake in perfection even though Adam fell, was there? The whole idea is fatally flawed. First, God didn't introduce evil and sin into the universe contrary to his purpose and plan, so there is no mistake. His purpose and plan revolved around the sin that God had foreknowledge man would fall into bondage of. If the author's assumptions are wrong, then his conclusions will be (and are) wrong. God allowed sin and evil into the world (very different), and (being infinite and omniscient), His purpose and plan He worked out through it. Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world because God is omniscient and provided solution for His election, not because God created sin in the world that man would fall.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Robert63

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2003, 08:52:28 AM »
Which brings up another question.

What if a person contends that God is not good, and insists that God made the devil, and the devil is evil and so God is a sinner? There are those athiests who say that.
How would you respond to them?

Layla

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2003, 11:16:07 AM »
Quote
This post sounds like word for word from Adolph E. Knoch's book, isn't it? I certainly don't agree with his premises. How would I respond? I wouldn't. I try not to think that I have all the mysteries of the infinite God figured out.

Greetings Tony.  You are correct (my apologies for not remembering to credit him with his words.  I truly appreciate your response.  I especially liked your comments regarding the mysteries of God.  Perhaps I ought to just accept that some things remain hidden.

Quote
But as far as this part is concerned, it's circular reasoning, like if God created Satan, and Satan became evil, then God created evil because God is sovereign? ..uhh, No! It's kin to people who ask, "if God can do anything, can he make a rock so big that he can't lift it?"
(1.)If He can't, then He's not all powerful.
(2.)If He can, and He can't lift it, then He's not all-powerful.
(3.)If He can, and He can lift it, then He's also not all powerful, because He wasn't powerful enough to make a Rock so big He couldn't lift it.

This is excellent.  Thank you for writing this because it truly makes your point quite clear.

Quote
God didn't introduce sin and evil into the world, as He "CANNOT" sin. So all conclusions derived from that faulty premise, are automatically flawed. God being sovereign, does not mean that God, before the world began, purposed to create and tempt man with sin, that he would fall. Yeah, I'm sure I could write a 300 page book intricately explaining how he did, and also didn't, but what good would that do for the spreading of the gospel?

I agree with your statements here and thank you also for pointing out that the sons of God are to witness to His truth as opposed to asking questions which raise more questions and which give rise to doubt and the possibility of causing other's faith to falter.  Certain things are clear in the Word (God is sovereign, God is light, God is righteous, God does not tempt, etc.) and I suppose these are the things worthy to meditate upon and witness to.

Thank you for your honest and faithful response to thoughts which I felt gave rise to difficult questions regarding evil.  What had entered my mind while reading this author's thoughts was that his remarks stood in stark condraction of the words of our Lord when He said:

Mark 3:24-25   

And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.  And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.    

Peace,
Layla

SamoanOnion

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • Smiley Pimp
    • 4 HIS Glory
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2003, 08:32:11 PM »
Which brings up another question.

What if a person contends that God is not good, and insists that God made the devil, and the devil is evil and so God is a sinner? There are those athiests who say that.
How would you respond to them?

I think Tony has already answered that question in the post above yours Robert63, God did create all things such as the devil, but the devil also made his own choice of his own free will, just as adam and eve did the same.  I believe thats why He gave us our own free will, because He wants it to be our choice in accepting Him, if it would've have been His choice then we all probably wouldn't be here talk'n about sin at all, therefore no need for Christ as well.  we either make our choices with Him in His will, or by removing Him and making choices on our own, which can only produce bad fruit.  this fact is evident not only in the decisions of the devil and adam, but just take a look back at history of man in general.

my thoughts anyway  ???,
good stuff Tony
~CS Out~

Fred

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2005, 10:30:37 PM »
Tony Warren. I really think that as a calvinist you do your fellow brethren a terrible disservice by the article you wrote. You seem to be trying to have it both ways. God is not the author of sin, but He is sovereign. He doesn't predestinate to hell, only to heaven. We are not robots, but we can't come to Christ. God's not willing that all will be saved and he is willing that all will be saved. What's wrong with this picture?

The doctrines of Calvin that you preach have long been discredited along with the revelation of his sins. History reveals that John Calvin was not the best of human beings, and his doctrines have deceived many. Calvinism emphasizes Calvin's teachings as shaped by Peter Ramus, William Ames, and others. so if you want to blindly follow man's teachings and not accept that God is not creating robots, then you are not following your own principles of not listening to man. I believe your quote is, let god be true and every man a liar?

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

If you receive the witness of john calvin, rather than of god, then you are going to lead a lot of people down the prim rose path. Calvinism is wrong because the grace of free-will allows us to accept the redemptive design.

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2187
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2005, 09:43:17 AM »
>>>
Tony Warren. I really think that as a calvinist you do your fellow brethren a terrible disservice by the article you wrote.
<<<

It is true that "some" of those who believe in what the Bible teaches about the Doctrines of Grace for some reason love to be labeled "Calvinists," but let's be clear that I am not one of them. I am not a Calvinist, I am not a follower of Calvin and don't believe in Calvin's doctrines anymore than I am a Buddhist to believe in the teachings of Buddhism. I am a Christian to believe in the testimony of Christ. Christ is my namesake, not Calvin.

Acts 11:26
  • "..And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

The believers of the church are called Christian, for we are followers "of Christ." Contrary to some Reformed opinion, we don't need another identifier to be distinguished from other teachings by monikers that implicitly attribute these faithful Christian doctrines of God to men. ...at least, I don't.


Quote
>>>
You seem to be trying to have it both ways. God is not the author of sin, but He is sovereign. He doesn't predestinate to hell, only to heaven. We are not robots, but we can't come to Christ. God's not willing that all will be saved and he is willing that all will be saved. What's wrong with this picture?
<<<

No, it's only one way. God is Sovereign and not the author of sin. Perhaps you don't truly understand what the word Sovereign means. It doesn't mean He makes anyone do evil.

Psalms 92:15
  • "To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him."

God cannot sin (transgress His laws). He can no more be moved to sin in doing unrighteously than than a mountainous rock can be picked up by you and removed out of its place. Yes, He is sovereign and to deny that would be to deny God's Word, and thus deny Christ. Those who deny the Sovereignty of God show a lack of the righteous reverential fear of God that His people possess. That is also usually their ultimate downfall. God is sovereign over all things so that even the very hairs of your head are numbered of Him.

Luke 12:5-7
  • "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
  • Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
  • But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."

There's no contradiction. Despite retorts to the contrary, God predestinates no one to Hell. Those who end up in hell will not be there because God predestinated them to go to hell, but as the direct result of their own rebellion, sin or transgressions. By not saving them, God has in his Sovereignty ordained or decreed this to stand by not taking away their sin in Christ. He has not predetermined it by active determination that man must sin, He allows man to sin. Don't blame God for man's sin, place the blame where it belongs.

Deuteronomy 24:16
  • "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

In this decree, the principle is established that every man is judged because of the sin he alone has committed. No, we are not created robots, we have free agency. I can go to the store, I can vote in an election, I can go to church, discipline my children and care for my grandmother. But we do not have the ability to freely come to Christ because we are carnal to love, and in fact are are in bondage to sin. That is a whole different issue.

John 6:43-44
  • "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
  • No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Christ cannot be any more clearer than that. So while man may claim that we can come to Christ of our own free will, Christ Himself says "unambiguously" that we cannot. And clearly, God, being omnipotent, could have saved all men "IF" He was actually willing that all men would be saved. But on the contrary, He is willing that all men (whom he has chosen) will be saved. For clearly, His will was not for Pharaoh to be saved, since he raised him up allowing him to live and come to the point where God removing His hand of restraint would be glorified in his (Pharoah's) rebellion in not obeying God, and not letting God's people go. He was ordained unto this and allowed to sin to God's glory, but he was not forced to sin. i.e., if I take an alcoholic and bring him into my house for six months where he is unable to drink, and then release him after 6 months and he starts drinking again, I am not then forcing him to drink. I am under no obligation to restrain him. Q.E.D., it's his sin, not mine.


Quote
>>>
The doctrines of Calvin that you preach have long been discredited along with the revelation of his sins. History reveals that John Calvin was not the best of human beings, and his doctrines have deceived many. Calvinism emphasizes Calvin's teachings as shaped by Peter Ramus, William Ames, and others.
<<<

Doctrines of Calvin? Have you read me quote Calvin here at anytime to prove anything I've said? Again, the "Doctrines of the Grace" of God are plainly delineated in the scriptures and revealed through the Spirit of Christ. Calvin had nothing to do with their creation or authorship. I am a follower of the Scriptures, not of the teachings of John Calvin. So then, why would I be a Calvinist except in some perverse tradition of pride, or because I was labeled so by a self-serving individual such as yourself?

Let me say it for the third time, John Calvin had "Nothing Whatsoever" (and I can't emphasize that enough) to do with authoring the doctrines of Grace. And to equate him to this authorship, or imply he is the father of this doctrine, is (in my view) a serious tragedy of the Reformed church. John Calvin died in 1564 and never even heard of Calvinism or the famous five points attributed to him (which should have been attributed to God's word, where they originated). As a result of this carelessness, opponents attribute these tenants "of scripture" to Calvin, rather than to their rightful author. How unfortunate! I am constantly asked by new Christians and false Christians alike, "why are you teaching the doctrines of Calvin?" They do not have a clue that John Calvin had nothing to do with making these doctrines because this hoax is forever perpetuated by foolish Christians clinging to their traditions. In fact, it wasn’t until 1610 (almost 50 years later) when a remonstrance was created and put out the five basic Biblical points, which are now "erroneously" and tragically labeled the 5 points of Calvinism. Predestination and Election are not doctrines of Calvin, but of Christ.

So while Calvinism "may" indeed emphasize Calvin's teachings as shaped by Peter Ramus, William Ames, and others (as you say), I do not. I emphasize (and make it the MAIN POINT of this entire website) the teachings of the Word of the living God.

Luke 11:27-28
  • "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
  • But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

Many have still not yet (it seems) comprehended the true intent of Christ's words. Not that Mary was not a wonderful Christian, but that exalting her would be error. That all glory belongs to God "alone." And as I said, IMHO it's tragic that so many Reformed Christians never seem to get it. ..But you get it, don't you? YOU understand that if you put all the onus on Calvin, you don't have to deal with it being God's word alone, do you?


Quote
>>>
so if you want to blindly follow man's teachings and not accept that God is not creating robots, then you are not following your own principles of not listening to man. I believe your quote is, let god be true and every man a liar?
<<<

Actually, that's not my quote anymore than "being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will,  -Ephesians 1:11" is John Calvin's quote. So you should attribute the doctrines to whomever authored them.

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Which is precisely why I do not quote nor follow the doctrines of John Calvin, but the word of God. I don't have to quote Calvin, I quote Ephesians. I don't have to quote Luther, I quote Romans. I don't have to quote Bunyan, I quote Christ. Because all those words are the inerrant words of God.

Just as I wouldn't be involved in Mariology for the same reason. Mary was a righteous woman, but the over-exaltation of men/women is the hidden idolatry that permeates the churches, and as I say, it is unfortunate wherever it is found. Ever try and convince a Catholic they shouldn't exalt Mary? Or ever try to convince a Calvinist he shouldn't exalt Calvin?  It's like pulling teeth, isn't it? To everyone (when it concerns them) it's somehow "different." But there is really not much difference in blind tradition. So I guess you can plainly tell, I am not your typical Calvinist at all, I am decidedly anti-Calvinsit. I am an Old-school Christian in the vein of Paul, who said let no one say they are "of Paul" because Christ is not divided. And as I said before, from what I have read of John Calvin, I'm sure He would turn over in his grave to hear people were saying they were Calvinists.


Quote
>>>
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

If you receive the witness of john calvin, rather than of god, then you are going to lead a lot of people down the prim rose path. Calvinism is wrong because the grace of free-will allows us to accept the redemptive design.
<<<


Are you deliberately trying to get my goat?  :-\

Again, don't confuse me with the various Calvinists around the web, as I do not blindly follow reformation tradition or any other man-made tradition. And I do not excessively quote men and proclaim the doctrines of John Calvin as if they can take the place of the Gospel. Also, your scripture (1st John 5:9) is misplaced, as I do not receive the witness of men, I know the witness of God is greater. That's precisely why I am not a Calvinist, and don't follow other Reformed theologians venerating him, nor in clinging to counterproductive titles.  Calvin doesn't even enter into my witness  unless someone like yourself injects him in lieu of scriptural reference. ..which happens periodically.

1st John 5:9
  • "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son."

The witness of God is that He testified by the Spirit of His Son, not of Calvin. And what Christ testified of was "His" doctrine of man's Total Depravity (Psalms 58:3; Romans 7:24), God's Unconditional Election (John 15:16; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13), Limited Atonement (John 17:19; Romans 9:16-17), and Irresistible Grace (Hebrews 12:2; Philippians 1:6). And of the Perseverance of the Saints (John 18:8-9; Luke 4:10; Jude 1:24), because clearly they are the "precepts of scripture," not of Calvin.

PS For the record, we've been all over this "Calvinism Business" again and again:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2123.0

Read this thread, and if you want to discuss scripture, we can do that. If you want to discuss John Calvin's doctrines, this is the wrong place. If you want to discuss doctrine here, you will have to do it from "the Bible." Sola Scriptura! ..and what a novel approach! To not lean upon labels or upon doctrines of John Calvin, or of Calvinists, but discuss doctrines by the scriptures.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Gender: Female
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2005, 04:40:37 PM »
Quote
quote from Tony Warren 2/11/05 6:43:17am
Romans 3:4

    * "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."


Which is precisely why I do not follow the doctrines of John Calvin, but the Word of God. I don't have to quote Calvin, I quote Ephesians. I don't have to quote Luther, I quote Romans. I don't have to quote Bunyan, I quote Christ. Because all those words are the words of God.

Just as I wouldn't be involved in Mariology for the same reason. Mary was a righteous woman, but the over-exaltation of men/women is the hidden idolatry that permeates the churches, and as I say, it is unfortunate wherever it is found. Ever try and convince a Catholic they shouldn't exalt Mary? Or ever try to convince a Calvinist he shouldn't exalt Calvin?  It's like pulling teeth, isn't it? To everyone (when it concerns them) it's somehow "different." But there is really not much difference in blind tradition. So I guess you can plainly tell, I am not your typical Calvinist at all, I an decidedly anti-Calvinsit. I am an Old-school Christian in the vein of Paul, who said let no one say they are "of Paul"

And all of God's childlren say Amen!

This issue of labeling not only (conveniently) shifts the focus from what's important -- namely "what saith the scripture...", but can extendsto  denominational divisions as well.  I believe that this too can be, to use your words,  "hidden idolatry that permeates the Church".  Trying to convince some sects of 'baptists' that water baptism is not a requirement of salvation but rather points to the washing away of our sins by the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit, is also like pulling teeth.  The teachings of practically all demoninations reject the view that there is an outward representation of the 'church' in the form of local congretations, which will undergo judment and can fall if found lacking in faith, versus a remnant saved by Grace alone, elected to salvation before the foundation, and comprise the true 'church' that will forever stand. 

Rom 15:5-76
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


This need for man-made labels and denominational divisions, in lieu of the singleminded adherance to Scripture, is truly a tragic state of affiars.  This is one reason why I thank God for MR and its management, which hasn't gone the way of most churches and sites.

God's many blessings.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

jsw

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2005, 06:36:43 PM »
Tony Warren. I really think that as a calvinist you do your fellow brethren a terrible disservice by the article you wrote. You seem to be trying to have it both ways. God is not the author of sin, but He is sovereign. He doesn't predestinate to hell, only to heaven. We are not robots, but we can't come to Christ. God's not willing that all will be saved and he is willing that all will be saved. What's wrong with this picture?

The doctrines of Calvin that you preach have long been discredited along with the revelation of his sins. History reveals that John Calvin was not the best of human beings, and his doctrines have deceived many. Calvinism emphasizes Calvin's teachings as shaped by Peter Ramus, William Ames, and others. so if you want to blindly follow man's teachings and not accept that God is not creating robots, then you are not following your own principles of not listening to man. I believe your quote is, let god be true and every man a liar?

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

If you receive the witness of john calvin, rather than of god, then you are going to lead a lot of people down the prim rose path. Calvinism is wrong because the grace of free-will allows us to accept the redemptive design.
John Calvin was not the best of human beings. Could you show me a good human being. so whats wrong with Calvinism......if its scriptural whats the difference. Revelation is not true as a result of bowing to human logic. The Bible can teach whatever it wants, after all its from God. God can teach two seaminly apposing views in human logic if He chooses. God can teach that in the final analysis pharoe is responsible for his rejection of God and also teach that Pharoe had every opportunity to turn from his sin and also teach that Pharoe was a vessel prepared for destruction. Gods truth is not true if it fits our little intellectual ways of putting things into their perfect logical order. So quit playing crossword with the Bible and just believe what it says.

deaconboy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2005, 09:40:04 PM »
Amen Dittos, Tony

Fred

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2005, 06:51:56 AM »
It is true that "some" of those who believe in what the Bible teaches about the Doctrines of Grace for some reason love to be labeled "Calvinists." However, let's be clear right off that I am not one of them. I am not a Calvinist, I don't believe in Calvin's doctrines anymore than I am a Buddhist to believe in the teachings of Buddhism.

OK, I apologize for that. And perhaps my thread title was a bit aggressive. But though you may not be a typical Calvinist, I'm sure that most of those who come here are typical Calvinists who do follow his doctrines rather than the bible. I looked over the thread you referenced and I think even you believe that a little bit.  :P

But if you only want to deal with the bible, I can do that also. In fact, I'm encouraged by it. Because I believe that the bible doesn't teach that we have no free will to become saved. Shall I start a new thread or continue with this one?

Baerchild

  • Guest
Re: Did God Create Evil?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2005, 12:52:43 PM »

But if you only want to deal with the bible, I can do that also. In fact, I'm encouraged by it. Because I believe that the bible doesn't teach that we have no free will to become saved. Shall I start a new thread or continue with this one?

Fred,

If it is our free will which saves us, we don't need a Savior because we have saved ourselves.  We should give thanks to ourselves and pray to ourselves with congratulations and pride for our good work. 

It is not our will which takes away our hearts of stone; it is the will of The Lord and we are at His complete mercy. Nowhere in The Bible do we see that mankind has a free will to become saved. If you isolate a verse and completely ignore the Soverign Grace of God, there is no fear of The Lord in your soul and you are without understanding.

We all deserve a one-way ticket to The Lake of Fire but it is only God who has graciously determined to save His Elect from eternal damnation...again, we are at His mercy.  But go ahead, show us from The Word of God that we have to decide to become saved.  And show us when Paul used his free will to become saved.  Certainly not on the road to Damascus.

Jim 

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]