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Author Topic: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21  (Read 12762 times)

Erik Diamond

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Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« on: September 12, 2004, 10:24:05 PM »
Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22  And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

In verse 22, the man was sad and went away from Jesus, worrying about his wealth. But the question is the man truly saved regardless because Jesus loved him in verse 21? Does it means the man is saved?

Thanks in advance for your thought.

Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

judykanova

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2004, 02:45:49 AM »
Mar 10:17  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:19   Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20
  And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22  And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

In verse 22, the man was sad and went away from Jesus, worrying about his wealth. But the question is the man truly saved regardless because Jesus loved him in verse 21? Does it means the man is saved?

Thanks in advance for your thought.

Erik Diamond

Erik,

This question that Jesus posed to this rich young ruler, brings to mind the one He posed to Peter -- Not, as you say, because Jesus didn't already know the answer, but rather to teach some truth through His Word. 

Mat 16:13-17
13  When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14  And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15  He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven
.


Of course, having the full OT and NT -- the complete Word of God,  we know without question that Jesus is God, and therefore 'Good'.  I imagine a scenario where this young man instead answers this question along the same lines as Peter, namely  something like 'I call you Good Master for Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

I think we can say that at that point in time, this man did not have the indwelling Spirit as Peter did.  However, that doesn't mean that he wasn't one of God's Elect who would become saved in his lifetime.  For as you noted, this passage says "Jesus beholding him loved him".

Consider this OT passage which presents a picture or 'shadow' of Christ's great love for those He came to save:

1Sa 18:1-4
1  And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2  And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.


I thinks this is a picture of the NT 'covenant' that was to come, in which Christ (like the prince Jonathan), strips Himself of his glory in order to cover us with the garments of His righteousness.  There is much more to ponder here, but I don't want to get too far off topic.

Nothing is in the Bible by 'accident'.  And there is a consistency in passages that deal with the wonderous love of Christ that never falters or fails, and is 'soul' deep --  nothing like the self-serving emotion that most humans regard as 'love'.


Consider also what Jesus taught in that same passage.  Namely that with God, the seemingly 'impossible' -- such as a camel (e.g. rich man) going through the eye of a needle --becomes possible. 

Mar 10:23-31 
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25  It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26  And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.


The miracle of salvation (no less than that of a camel going through the eye of a needle) can only be gifted by God.  And His elect are known before the foundation of the world.   


Based on what Scriptures teach as a whole, I think we may say this man did become saved.
Hope these Scriptures and thoughts help.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

andreas

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2004, 03:48:11 AM »
<<<In verse 22, the man was sad and went away from Jesus, worrying about his wealth. But the question is the man truly saved regardless because Jesus loved him in verse 21? Does it means the man is saved?>>>

 The young man was under some delusions regarding salvation.
He thought that salvation could be obtained by something he could do.Verse 17.However we know otherwise.
" It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy!"
Secondly he thought that the law can save him.Verse 20.
Again we know that is not the case, for , "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified!"
The man went away.Verse 22,so we may conclude that at the time, he was not saved,but later on he was,for we are told that Jesus loved him.Verse21
.One of the attributes of God is immutability,and if Jesus loved him, then he was saved.If God loves you, He will always love you.
"Having loved His own which were in the world,He loved them unto the end". John 13:1
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Carol

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2004, 08:32:59 AM »

Mar 10:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Perhaps the Lord Jesus meant:  'Since you don't believe I'm God, why do you call me good?  There is none good but God.'

And I also believe that the Rich Young Ruler was later regenerated because of reasons already stated by Judy & Andreas.  Would God send someone to hell to pay for their own sins that he loves?  I don't think so.  I believe that all that God loves, Christ died for, and they will all go to heaven to be with him someday.  Otherwise, what would be the benefit of his love?

A good verse by Andreas:

Having loved His own which were in the world,He loved them unto the end.   John 13:1

Many Blessings,
Carol
Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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Sandy

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2004, 01:42:23 PM »
Regarding the answers given above...I am wondering why the two parallel references to this story in Matt. 19:16-22, and Luke 18:18-23 don't mention Christ loving the rich young ruler?  Are we certain that the love mentioned in Mark is salvific love?

Sandy

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2004, 06:09:04 PM »
Hi Sandy

You're right, it doesnt mention Christ's love in the other two references, but since it does in Mark, then I believe it is true. 

As far as whether it is salvific love, I must ask, what other kind of love is there with God?  Are there verses that tell of two kinds of love?  If so, please present them.  That becomes very confusing to me, to think that God loves someone, but doesnt save them, when we know he is 'perfectly' able to do so. 

Thanks.
Many Blessings,
Carol
Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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Sandy

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2004, 09:37:25 PM »
Hi Carol,

What started me wondering is John 3:16...God so loved the world.  The proper rendering of this verse of course is not that God loves all of humanity, but rather in this manner He loved.  That is He gave His only begotten Son to whomever would believe.  I wonder if this is the sense in which He loves the rich young ruler in the text?  In other words He loved so that He gave him the way... take up the cross, and follow Me.  I simply believe that stating unequivocally that this rich young ruler is among the elect is reading into Scripture what is not there.  I am among those who believe that God does indeed show a 'common' love for all of His creation.  The rain falls on the unjust as well as the just etc.  And it is in this manner that He states His love here.

Many Blessings to you as well.
Sandy       

GoldRush

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2004, 09:56:10 PM »
 
Quote
I am among those who believe that God does indeed show a 'common' love for all of His creation.  The rain falls on the unjust as well as the just etc.  And it is in this manner that He states His love here.

Rain nor sunshine equates to Godly love.

Nor does God "love" all men.

For God loves only those elect found blameless and acceptable in Jesus Christ, through His most ~uncommon~ grace.

J&R



GoldRush
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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2004, 11:29:03 AM »

As far as whether it is salvific love, I must ask, what other kind of love is there with God?  Are there verses that tell of two kinds of love?  If so, please present them.  That becomes very confusing to me, to think that God loves someone, but doesnt save them, when we know he is 'perfectly' able to do so. 


Carol,

     I believe Sandy is on the right track here.  There is in fact another kind of love that is mentioned in scripture - the love that we are called to show to our enemies.

Matthew 5
43   Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44   But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45   That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Luke 6
34   And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35   But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36   Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


Proverbs 25
21   If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22   For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.


There is no greater love that we can show to our enemies than to share with them the glorious gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ, so that they might know the way and be saved.  This is what is meant by giving bread to our enemy when he is hungry (Jesus Christ, the true bread that came down from heaven) and water to our enemy when he is thirsty (the Holy Spirit, the living water flowing from Christ).  This is the only bread and water that can truly save someone, and the fact that we show love by offering it doesn't necessarily mean that the person will accept it and be saved.  We are called to share this message with everyone, but only those chosen from the foundation of the world will hear it, receive it and be saved.  The rest come under judgment.
     This is the same type of love that Jesus was demonstrating to the rich young ruler.  He showed him the way of salvation.

Mark 10
19   Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20   And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21   Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22   And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23   And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


     The fact that this man walked away saddened and grieving because he did not want to give up his possessions is an indication that he was not saved.  Riches and material possessions are used as spiritual pictures to describe self-righteousness. 

Revelation 3
14   And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15   I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16   So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17   Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18   I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


This passage of scripture is not describing people who are literally rich and increased with goods any more than it is describing people who are literally poor, blind and naked.  This is spiritual language used to describe those who are not in Christ, but instead trusting in themselves and their own work for their salvation, believing that they are good enough in and of themselves to be righteous in God's eyes (just like the rich young ruler who thought he could be saved by keeping the commandments).  These people are spiritually "rich" (self-righteous) and they will not find salvation in this condition.  We must be spiritually "poor" (recognizing our destitute and hopeless condition, and our need for a savior).

Matthew 5
3   Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


     The story of the rich young ruler is recorded in Luke chapter 18 also, and just before it, we are told a parable illustrating the condtion of the spiritually rich and the spiritually poor.

Luke 18
9   And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10   Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11   The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12   I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13   And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14   I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


The pharisee was "rich", the publican was "poor".  It is the poor man who will be justified.  God has a strong warning for those who are rich:

James 5
1   Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2   Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3   Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.


     Please don't think this is only talking about material possessions.  It is describing the spiritual condition of these people and the judgment that awaits them because they trusted in themselves and not in Jesus Christ.  These people are the women described in Isaiah chapter 4.

Isaiah 4
1   And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.


This cannot be.  We can't have it both ways.  We can't eat our own bread, and wear our own clothes, and still be called by the name of Christ.  Our own bread is molded, and our own clothes are filthy rags.  We need the bread of life (Jesus) and we must be clothed with His robes of righteousness.  This is the only way to find salvation.  The rich young ruler is a picture of man who wanted to do it his own way, and could not accept that he needed help.  He needed a savior, but he walked away, clinging to his worthless possessions.  He was not saved.
     Luke 19 on the other hand, gives us a picture of a rich man who was willing to give up his riches and follow Christ.  This man was saved.

Luke 19
1   And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2   And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3   And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4   And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5   And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6   And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7   And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8   And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9   And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


Grace and peace to you,

William
Quote
"Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high has visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1:78-79

Sandy

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2004, 01:25:09 PM »
Goldrush,

If it is true that God loves only His elect, and further true that He shows no love toward those who are not among His elect, then how do you respond to the love of God demonstrated throughout the OT toward the Nation of Israel?  Again and again God says that He loves them, and yet most of those died in the wilderness in unbelief.  If they died in unbelief, they were certainly not among the elect of God.  What do you call it, if not love, when Jesus cries for the people "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!  How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"  And what about the compassion Christ shows for the multitudes?  Is this not a picture of love?  If not, what can we call it?  "Then Jesus called His disciples to Him and said, "I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now continued with Me three days and have nothing to eat.  And I do not want to send them away hungry, lest they faint on the way."  There are many, many demonstations of Christ's love for mankind throughout the NT, yet for the most part these remained reprobate.  To say that Christ has no 'common' love for all man is to make altogether void the covenant God makes with mankind.  His covenant has always included both wheat and tares.  And those tares living among the covenant people most certainly do recieve many blessings through the love of Christ.  This love which is now demonstrated through His people.  We show the love of Christ everytime we respond in a loving and compassionate way toward not only the elect, but all humanity.  Of course the greatest of love being, as Illuminated states, to share with them the glorious gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ.  Do you think this is our natural love and affection for them?  Or, is this the love of Christ living and doing through His chosen instruments? 

God most assuredly demonstates a 'common' love toward His whole creation.  If not for the love of God we would have destroyed His marvelous creation long ago.  Yes, there is a saving love of Christ reserved for the elect, but this is by no means the only love that Christ has for mankind. 

Sandy         

Carol

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2004, 06:12:44 PM »
Hello William,
Quote
This is the same type of love that Jesus was demonstrating to the rich young ruler.  He showed him the way of salvation.

If God loved him and wanted him saved, why would he not save him?  He certainly had the power to do so.  Wouldn't you save one of your rebellious children from hell if you could?  Isn't that because you love them?  What kind of love would it be, to stand by and watch them rebelliously go to hell, when you have the power to save them?  As I said, that just doesn't make sense to me.  What benefit is God's love then if it has no power to save?  Just to make us have a little better life for our 70 or so years here on earth?

James 4:14  Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 

God loves with an everlasting love.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Quote
The fact that this man walked away saddened and grieving because he did not want to give up his possessions is an indication that he was not saved.

I do not believe he was regenerated right then either, I believe it happened later in his life.

And I completely agree with your assessment about the spiritual meaning of being poor and being rich and performing works to acheive salvation vs. being 'in Christ.'  It was very good, I thought and enjoyed reading it, but I don't see what that has to do with whether or not God loves everyone in the world.

Many Blessings,
Carol[/color]
Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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Sandy

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2004, 11:10:38 PM »
Hi Carol,

What if we pose the question differently?  Instead of asking why Christ does not save all men, ask why He bothers to save any man? 

Sandy

Carol

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2004, 11:09:24 AM »
A good question Sandy.  But I think the word 'save' in that question is interchangeable with the work 'love.' 

To love someone would be to save them from harm, if you have the power to do so.  And we know that God certainly does have the power.  And how wonderful that he does love/save some when certainly none of us, in ourselves, deserve it.

To love someone and send them to hell in order to allow them the freedom of their will is a pitiful kind of love, in my opinion.

John 13:1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Many Blessings,
Carol


 
Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"
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Sandy

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2004, 12:51:52 PM »
Carol,

Christ does not send any to hell.  Those who are not in Christ go to hell because they remain in their sin.  It is a heart condition, wickedness beyond comprehension.  I cannot tell you why God chose only an elect number of humans to save, or why He chose whom He chose, but fact is, He did.  What I can say is that God desired to have a people for Himself, and if He had not intervened in the lives of some men, then no man would be saved.  So ask yourself, what is more loving and compassionate...to leave all mankind in their sin, and save no man, or to choose to save some men to show His glory, His mercy, His grace?

Many blessings
Sandy     

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Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 10:58:37 AM »
In verse 18, I was wondering why Jesus asked the man for calling Him good?  I know that Jesus is God and He is good, but why did he ask man anyway?

Thanks in advance for your thought.



Because He wanted to show the man that he misunderstood the law, and that in reality no man was good. Every man is unrighteous and needs a Savior! Why call a man good when no man is good.

 Psalms 53:2-3
  "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
  Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one".

 That he should have been more careful with the law to know that there is no man that is good. All are in need of a Savior.

 


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