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Author Topic: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts  (Read 9625 times)

Mike Repass

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2003, 01:16:43 PM »
Re:unclean beasts and man made foods.
ę Reply #14 on: September 11, 2003, 05:29:56 PM Ľ
i was saying was that wouldn't  have included unclean beasts cause they weren't classed as food.


Paul was an Apostle to the Gentile (Acts 13:46-48, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11) not the descendent of Jacob. The Law of the Beast as found in Lev. 11 was to the descendent of Jacob to separate them from the Gentile around them. The ceremonial part of the Mosaic Law was an earthly example of a spiritual reality. The Law of the Beasts was to show man that there are things that are unclean and things that are clean. See the lesson taught to Peter in his vision and notice what God used to teach him the lesson, eating of unclean beast. In this vision God classified the unclean beast as food.

Re:unclean beasts and man made foods.
ę Reply #12 on: September 10, 2003, 03:54:00 PM Ľ
when did anybody actually eat of unclean beasts in the new testament


Most assuredly everywhere they went into Gentile territory. Remember the event where Christ cast the demons into the swine. These swine were being raised in close proximity to the Jews and I doubt they were being raised as pets. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. these words: 25 Whatever in the meat-market is sold eat ye, not inquiring, because of the conscience,   26 for the Lord's [is] the earth, and its fulness;   27 and if any one of the unbelieving do call you, and ye wish to go, all that is set before you eat, nothing inquiring, because of the conscience;   28 and if any one may say to you, `This is a thing sacrificed to an idol,' --do not eat, because of that one who shewed (it), and of the conscience, for the Lord's [is] the earth and its fulness:   29 and conscience, I say, not of thyself, but of the other, for why [is it] that my liberty is judged by another's conscience?   30 and if I thankfully do partake, why am I evil spoken of, for that for which I give thanks?   31 Whether, then, ye eat, or drink, or do anything, do all to the glory of God;   32 become offenceless, both to Jews and Greeks, and to the assembly of God;   33 as I also in all things do please all, not seeking my own profit, but that of many--that they may be saved.


As to the other things you were talking about: I am not sure when vitamins and steroids and the other things were invented or discovered but the use or misuse of them is the concern not the existence. I could have an illness that a steroid would be prescribed for; Am I not to take the medication because man created it. I would thing that God gave man the knowledge to create the medication. Yet, if I want big muscles because I am vain and take steroids to achieve this I am perverting the created thing and it purpose. Marijuana for generations has served to provide clothes, rope and food. Yet, man has also perverted the thing created by God and used it for sorcery and evil. Does man's perversion negate the medicinal or culinary value of a plant, no. Just as man has perverted sexual behavior does not mean that sexual relations as God intended are evil. Genetic engineering of plants is a new twist on an old practice, cross-pollination, combining two plants to make one better plant. This happens in the animal kingdom too. Should I worry if I eat some of this franken food, certainly not.

Here is a little event in scripture, what do you think the meaning of it would be: 2 Kings 4:38 And Elisha came again to Gilgal: and [there was] a dearth in the land; and the sons of the prophets [were] sitting before him: and he said unto his servant, Set on the great pot, and seethe pottage for the sons of the prophets.   39 And one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine, and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full, and came and shred [them] into the pot of pottage: for they knew [them] not.   40 So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O [thou] man of God, [there is] death in the pot. And they could not eat [thereof].   41 But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast [it] into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2003, 04:57:08 PM »
aren't we putting our bodies at risk of heart disease,cancer and other things by eating whatever we please and aren't all the natural things which God created actually good for our bodies.i know this is only what man has told me but hasn't it been proven.
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Mike Repass

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2003, 05:44:55 PM »
Possibly so, if I knew something caused cancer I would not partake of it because I am the Temple of God. Yet, if my not eating it would offend someone whom I were witnessing to I would eat. If I don't have enough trust in my God to protect me when I am preaching the gospel how could another trust in the same God. This is the lesson Paul was presenting.

At risk of disease: What doesn't cause disease these days? It would be nice if we lived in a purest society were everything was in it's natural state. Yet, some of the most remote places on earth that one would consider a naturalist's dream are also laden with disease's that kill. To blame the eating of one twinkee on a cancer is a little far reaching. Eating 10 twinkee's a day everyday might have merit. It is in the excess of the substance that there is harm.

Why does society see a need to develop the Genetic engineered food? Greed, desire to be a god, etc. etc. If you can prolong your life by eating right do so. If you can only afford to eat peanut butter & jelly sandwiches chopped full of preservatives; expect God will bless it and bring nurishment to your body. The point is live your life to give God Glory. If eating unknown food brings one to Christ give God Glory. If being content in the provision of pb&j sandwiches give God Glory.

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2003, 06:07:32 PM »
so isn't it better to choose Gods created food natural food over mans created foods surely something made by God must be better than something made by or interfered with or added to by man
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Mike Repass

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2003, 08:42:59 PM »
Physically it would be better. Realistically to hold yourself to that rigid standard in our society when it is not necessary might lead you to starvation. It is hard to find seeds in a store to plant in the garden that are not hybrid this or hybrid that. Hybrid does not mean natural. Fish may still be natural but what kind of toxins have they absorbed into their meat swimming in polluted waters. What kind of toxins are in the meat you buy at the store. If you raise it your self and it eats hay, can you be sure the hay has not been polluted by the rain that fell upon it or even the pond water the animal drinks.

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2003, 08:33:37 AM »
but isn't it better to try and eat naturally as much as we can and ask God to bless it knowing that we're eating what God intended to go in our bodies rather than eating the convenient manmade foods added with artificial flavourings to keep tempting us back for more.is it not tempting God when we eat whatever we want and then pray for God to bless it knowing that we have purposely disregarded  the foods He has given us in favour of that created by man.do we not do the same with say the car God has given us natural ways to travel horses chariots and natural boats but by our greed to make ourselves rich off one another we are loosing track of how we are destoying Gods natural creations in favour of something which uses less effort and forces us to want more and better of it's kind
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Dana Pescator

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2003, 12:46:56 PM »
But why are you so preoccupied with so called clean foods and unclean foods? Shrimps are not unclean today. That was a ceremonial law, not a law saying shrimps are bad for us.

Rebel

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2003, 07:21:26 PM »
   
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we were created to serve God ,God is the master,why would he change his laws because we find them inconvenient


     Paul,  please  forgive  my  impatience  but  for  the  third  time,  the  laws  have  not  changed!  They  have  been  kept  already  by  Jesus  Christ  and  we  are  relying  on  His  righteousness  because  if  we  try  to  keep  the  law  like  He  did,  we  will  not  succeed.  How  many  times  do  I  have  to  repeat  myself?  

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    God gave us our bodies as well as our minds we should not polute our minds with the ways of man neither should we polute our bodies.Gods words are the most important and if mans words appear to differ to Gods we should compare mans words to Gods not compare Gods word to mans and dismiss Gods words because mans words seem to say differrent.

     Since  when  have  I  been  comparing  God's  words  to  man's  words?  Haven't  I  used  sufficient  scripture  to  back  up  my  argument?  You  don't  just  throw  statements  like  that  around  lightly.  

     
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Jesus who was sent to die for our sins and if we believe and are truly sorry we can be forgiven but if we are not sorry and think we have done no wrong how can we be forgiven.

     I  didn't  say  we  haven't  done  anything  wrong.  That  was  what  the  law  was  for,  to  show  us  our  sin.  

     
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if we were talking about someone eating  all things we wouldn't be including somethings like dogs ,cats ,vermin because we dont class them as food in our culture .although where are you from.

     Yee-haw,  I'm  a  country  gal!  Every  day  I  cook  up  a  mess  of  hog  jowls  an'  possom  innards  and  wash  it  all  down  with  a  jar  o'  pickled  crow  gizzards!  How'd  ya  like  a  recipe  for  chicken  hawk  soup?
     I  do  live  out  in  the  country  but  I  was  born  in  Chicago.  I  don't  eat  dogs  but  if  that's  what  God  provided  me,  I  would  eat  it!  If  someone  serves  me  possum,  I  will  eat  it.

   
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why wouldn't the romans have known the laws it must have been many centuries since the days of moses.

     Prove  that  statement!  Prove  that  the  Romans  all  knew  Jewish  laws.  It  looks  to  me  like  they  weren't  interested  in  learning  other  people's  cultures,  but  were  interested  in  forcing  their  own  on  the  rest  of  the  world.

     
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on circumcision where did it say anyone who broke the law would die .
    Excuse  me,  I  might  have  misinterpreted  "cut  off"  to  mean  death  but  it  could  mean  excommunication.  Anyway,  circumcision  was  definitely  a  part  of  God's  law  and  it  was  not  necessary  for  the  Gentiles  to  keep  it.  As  with  all  the  other  laws.

     The  point  I  have  been  trying  to  make  all  along  is  that  it  is  okay  to  abstain  from  clean  or  unclean  meats,  it  is  okay to  only  eat  natural  foods,  but  it  is  not  mandatory.  I  am  not  going  to  let  Christians  be  bound  by  laws  that  they  do  not  have  to  keep.  If  you  want  to  keep  the  old  laws,  then  go  ahead!  If  others  want  to,  fine!  But  no  believer  in  Christ  should  be  told  that  they  have  to  keep  those  laws  or  they  aren't  pleasing  God.
     Perhaps  a  natural  diet  would  be  better  for  us  and  we  do  tend  to  eat  too  much  unhealthy  stuff.  But  Christians  should  not  put  burdens  on  themselves  or  each  other.  What  we  choose  to  eat  or  not  eat  is  our  business.
     Grace  be  with  you  all,
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Until  you  find  something  worth  dying  for,  you're  not  really  living.

     "Deo  Valente"

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2003, 12:59:46 PM »
so is it not by the laws or by the body that we serve Him.it is through faith through trusting and believing in him.so if we truly have faith and serve god with all our hearts do we need food.should we not give all that we have all our our possesions all our money to the poor and follow God will he not provide for us all that we need.does the new testament primarily teach that we should not judge our brothers but love them as ourselves if not even moreso and that we should love the lord with all our hearts.and that by faith the sick will be healed the blind will see so surely by faith everything is possible even if it was his will to obey all his laws and commandments by faith couldn't we achieve this through faith.sorry if i offended you what i was trying to say was if pauls words seem to differ from that of Gods we should try and compare them to Gods words before believing them over Gods but i'm sorry if i offended and maybe i should not have said these words as my words are not as important as that which is wriiten in the bible i only give my opinion as i believe and as i have interperated things if i am wrong i am always open to correction but i like to explore every angle before i consider changing my opinion.i just think in romans when paul talks of the law of judging one another by the law and of abraham and circumcision i just think he talks as if they already know of these things otherwise how would they know who abraham was.
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

judykanova

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2003, 06:12:49 PM »
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sorry if i offended you what i was trying to say was if pauls words seem to differ from that of Gods we should try and compare them to Gods words before believing them over Gods


paul,  it's difficult to come to truth without first
acknowledging and understanding some basic premises.  First and foremost, you must understand that the whole Bible is God's Book -- His Words.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them.  So it's a contradiction in terms when you say we should compare 'pauls words' with 'God's word'.

Of course any understanding we think we've come to must be in harmony with what the Bible teaches as a whole.  For when properly understood, there are no real contradictions in the Bible; each truth or 'precept' builds upon the other to create a cohesive and harmonious whole.

Isa 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


As such, another key premise is that the Bible alone and in it's entirely is our authority... not our 'opinion' nor any man's opinion.

Another main premise is that multiple levels of truth may be found in the Bible, but the ultimate truth is at the spiritual level.  For we worship God in spirit and in truth.  We come to real truth by studying God's Word and comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

Rom 7:14

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Cor 2:13-15

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Cor 10:2-4

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


The Od Testament laws were given to teach spiritual truths, and were  (as Rebel and others have testified), fulfilled in Christ.  We don't stand a chance of keeping every 'jot  and tittle' of the law,.... and a miss is as good as a mile, condeming us to death.  So please don't try to 'bind'  yourself  to the law.  

Matt 5:18

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



So then, all those ceremonial laws concerning food and drink were all fulfilled in Christ -- whose  flesh we 'eat' and blood we 'drink', as symbolized  when we partake of the Lord's Supper.  Also, the references you made to healing must also be taken spiritually -- e.g. the healing of spritual blindness.

Whereas, the moral laws which still stand, we aspire to keep because they we love the Lord, though we still live in bodies of flesh that wars against the spirit, and therefore continue to fall far short of the mark.  But thanks be to God, all our sins were put upon Christ, our Redeemer, at the cross.  

So then what remains by which we goven our lives?...

Rom 4:3-7

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:11-13

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Of course, as already said by others,  the Bible teaches that whatever we do, we should do in moderation, and to the glory of God.   But this emphasis you're placing on food is misplaced.  For, 'the just shall live by faith'!

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2003, 08:06:28 PM »
i hear what all of you are saying and i agree to a certain extent but does a burger taste as good as a steak is God not the Creator  doesn't God know our needs more than we do doesn't He always provide for us why do we need to create more and hunger for other things when all we need God has provided.
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Rebel

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2003, 07:38:04 PM »
   
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i hear what all of you are saying and i agree to a certain extent but does a burger taste as good as a steak

     Well  a  burger  sure  is  cheaper  than  a  steak.  I have  a  big  family  and  eating  extra  healthy  and  ordering  all  those  fancy  kosher/all-natural  products  adds  up.  It's  an  okay  idea  but  sometimes  it's  just  not  practical.

     
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is God not the Creator  doesn't God know our needs more than we do doesn't He always provide for us

     Sure,  but  sometimes  when  He  provides  it  comes  in  a  Checkers  bag.  I'm  not  going  to  turn  up  my  nose  at  a  burger  if  that's  what's  put  in  front  of  me.
     Itís  not  like  we  buy  processed  food  because  weíre  discontent  with  what  the  Lord  has  provided.  Itís  just  a  lot  easier  to  go  to  Winn  Dixie  and  get  five  pounds  of  rice  than  it  is  to  grow  your  own.  In  many  countries  different  plants  grow  plentifully  there  and  the  people  use  them  because  thereís  so  much.  For  instance,  chili  peppers  grow  well  south  of  the  border  so  they  use  a  lot  of  chili  peppers  in  their  meals.  Well  here  in  America  we  have  such  a  melting  pot  of  cultures  and  so  we  have  restaurants  and  businesses  creating  different  foods  that  suit  different  people  because  what  they  like  to  eat  isnít  as  convenient  to  grow  here  as  it  would  be  in  their  own  country.  My  family  does  a  lot  of  home  cooking  and  we  like  to  use  as  good  quality  ingredients  as  possible.  But  sometimes  we  just  canít  do  that  so  we  go  to  Burger  King  or  Wal  Mart  and  the  food  isó  there.  Itís  not  like  we  donít  try  to  eat  healthy.  We  just  eat  whatís  available  and  thank  God  for  it.  
     Health  is  important  but  maybe  if  some  Christians  were  as  concerned  with  spiritual  health  as  they  were  physical  health,  our  churches  and  Christian  businesses  wouldnít  be  in  such  poor  condition.  Have  you  counted  the  carbohydrates  in  the  Left  Behind  Series  lately?  (Yikes,  Iím  still  trying  to  work  off  pounds  from  them!)  How  much  of  John  Hageeís  last  sermon  was  preservatives?  Is  the  doctrine  of  the  church  around  the  corner  straight  from  the  Bible  or  have  they  been  altering  it  with  their  own  genetics?  Why  do  we  have  to  add  flavors  and  colors  to  a  perfectly  good  pure  gospel?  Isnít  what  God  has  provided  us  enough?  Why  must  we  hunger  after  other  teachings?  Do  you  get  my  point?  Some  things  really  need  to  be  taken  care  of  before  others.  I  would  be  worrying  about  the  spiritual  condition  of  the  church  before  I  concern  myself  with  itís  physical  condition.
     Grace  be  with  you,
                                      Rebel  <><
Until  you  find  something  worth  dying  for,  you're  not  really  living.

     "Deo  Valente"

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2003, 09:12:04 PM »
you miss my point anything manmade is never as good as what God has created.man is always trying to create alternatives to Gods ways from creating alternative foods to creating alternative gods.mans way will always be made more convenient and more tempting but is there not always a downside there's very few things man has created which doesn't have some sort of side effect.and even that which is created with good intentions is always corrupted with the greed that follows.i know we're brought up in an advanced society today where everything is made so easy and convenient for us but have we really made this world a better place why are there people with no food when we are suposed to be a society capable of going to another planet but we can't take care of our own.
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Mike Repass

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2003, 02:42:41 PM »
anything manmade is never as good as what God has created

Paul,

How are you defining "manmade"? The delicious cakes on another thread are manmade in the sense that you do not find them growing on their own in nature. As you know man cannot create something from nothing. Man takes what has been created and mixes it together to make something new. The cake is such a mixture.

Inventions like the radio and television are nothing more than the discovery or reveiled knowledge of something already in creation that is harnessed and used for a purpose. I tend to think that all inventions are given of God for His purpose. Man's perversion is a natural result of original sin and therefore anything man gets good or otherwise will be perverted.

Paul

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Re: What About the Law of Clean and Unclean Meats and Beasts
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2003, 06:44:11 PM »
matthew 16v23 but He turned and said unto peter get thee behind me satan thou art an offence unto me for thou savourest not the things that be of God but those that be of men.a cake can be made using natural ingredients made by the hand of man out of what God has provided it comes from God it's not created or added to from that purely of mans mind.if it's not of God it's of man.man is nothing without God.man may be able to achieve a lot what he considers good in his own eyes he may be able to run faster than any other man in the world making him the envy of others and praised and rewarded by man God has given him the body and ability to do this but it's of mans mind this is seen as an achievement not Gods.we've all been given the abilities to do many things but theres only two paths to choose from theres the way of Jesus Christ or theres the way of the world theres no inbetween or comprimise it's either his way or ours  i don't think artificial foods t.v. or radio was created to please God or to help our brothers i think they were created purely of mans mind with the creator thinking of how he would profit or be glorified by mankind.we should praise God and live by what He has created not praise man and live by what he has created.God has given us the gift to create that of our own kind and tells us to multiply and everything else he has created also creates more of its kind he has already given us the gift to create and created an everlasting supply of everything we need so why do we need to jeopardize their existence with our failure to be grateful and happy with what we've got and always wanting something better when there is nothing better than our Creator and what he has created
(Gen 4:7)  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 


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