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Author Topic: "Sarx" and the sinful nature  (Read 9718 times)

da525382

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 10:54:39 AM »
Thanks, Tony....I had been reading a thread on another website, hence my reason for asking.  Someone there stated that the "sinful nature" Biblically can only be passed from father to child, hence Christ was not born with a "sinful nature", since God was his Father. But your exposition is very scriptural!

Tony Warren

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 02:44:45 PM »
>>>
Thanks, Tony....I had been reading a thread on another website, hence my reason for asking.  Someone there stated that the "sinful nature" Biblically can only be passed from father to child,
<<<

Someone there stated that the "sinful nature" Biblically can only be passed from father to child?

Hmmmm. Did you ask him for the Biblical Validation for that theory? Or was it just a guess or supposition on his part? ;)

...you cannot build a sound house without the solid foundation of the word of God.


Quote
>>>
..hence Christ was not born with a "sinful nature", since God was his Father. But your exposition is very scriptural!
<<<

If in His flesh He never sinned, I don't know if we can descriptively call it a "sinful nature," seeing as how it was not His nature to sin. I think we can safely say, Christ overcame the flesh received from Mary that lusts to sin, never once sinning, though tempted/tried in the flesh in all manner, exactly as we are. Like I said, I agree calling it a "sin nature" can be confusing to most people, because it implies his nature was then sinful. We have to keep in mind, sin is the transgression of God's laws.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

da525382

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2009, 08:14:19 PM »
I think it's all getting through my thick head, Tony.......I think of Paul so strung out over his members.....making him do that which he did not want to do, etc......Well, as I see it now, I can see Christ as faced with exactly the same reality EXCEPT that he was not forced to do that which He did not want to do, for He was God's and that which He wanted to do, that is, serve and glorify His father, could NOT be thwarted by the flesh, for He had the victory over it........Am I getting it, now?  Hence, perhaps, why we have no other possible response but to rejoice out loud, and fall to our knees, for we have been given this victory through Him, or perhaps better said, "with" Him.


John

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2009, 12:17:01 AM »
Quote
Someone there stated that the "sinful nature" Biblically can only be passed from father to child?


If we understand that the desire to sin or a "sinful nature" originates in the heart of man, then it is unnecessary for any "thing" to be passed from father to child. In the fallen condition man is born with a lying deceitful heart that from the womb opposes God.


Mat 15:18-20
18 --  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 --  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 --  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Mat 5:8 --á Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

If "heart" is understood to mean a particular controlling and dominating influence over the affections that drives the will to thought (mind) and action. If the unregenerate were separated from their body (by death) would there be any alteration in their "heart"? The body or flesh is only an apparent source for sin by our perception of the matter, for we think and do in the flesh, but the true culprit lurking in the dark is not fleshly but spiritual.  Scripture uses "heart" in various ways to include the conscience, understanding, will, desire, or mind. The foundation of all these outcroppings of sinful demonstrations:  evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies originate in the soul of man - which being eternal, carries its fallen nature into the next life. It does not die with the body.

Though the flesh cannot please God, for the Christian, there is the Spirit of God indwelling, operating in our bodies of flesh to produce life, which is good works toward God. If we do not have the Spirit of Christ we are still spiritually dead and likewise the body remains dead (to good works), for it is driven by the spirit. The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, and similarly raises our spirit to life - for apart from the Spirit we can do nothing. If we live according to the flesh, then we die, but if according to the Spirit, then we must conformed the body to this core driving instigator of righteousness, which brings forth in the flesh the manifestation of the Life within. Thus, we desire to crucify the flesh and put to death the unrighteous practices of the body and be led by the Spirit.   

Rom 8:8-14
8 --  And those that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 --  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 --  But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 --  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit indwelling in you.
12 --  Therefore, brothers, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 --  For if you live according to the flesh you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 --  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

So, within the Christian there exists a spirit that receives through the flesh worldly inputs - expressing these back in the flesh as mind, thought, desire, and affections. But it is the Spirit of God that operates upon the spirit to turn the living thing this way and that, like a river, for the purposes of God, which we then walk in. It would be wrong to think that the Christian has the facilities to operate in righteousness apart from the Spirit - were the Spirit to release us (to test us) we would sink like Peter in the stormy sea. Though we are tested and tired, the result in the Christian will be acknowledgement of God's Sovereignty and our worthlessness apart from Him, just as Peter cried "Lord, save me!" our Helper grabs hold of our disordered corrupted spirit and lifts us back to safety.

The man Jesus was born with this veil of flesh, and we know that in His spirit was no unclean thing - no corrupt faculties, but rather a Perfection of beauty that, like Adam, reveled in harmony with His Father in the spirit. The Christian can also, in a similitude, know this rejoicing in the inward man.

Rom 7:22
22 --  For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.


But unlike the Lord Jesus Christ we are drawn in the inward man by the enticements of the world, by the input of our members, and the soul (heart) is drawn away to bring forth the flood of evil desires that war against God. Thus we are all wretched men (and women). By strength of spirit we are doomed. But by strength of Spirit we are saved.

Rom 7:23-25
23 --  but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
24 --  Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 --  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



There could be no locus from which Jesus could desire to sin.  His spirit maintained harmony with His Spirit - tested and tried in all manners common to man, but yet untroubled by inner conflict. So is it unfair that the Christian has inner conflict and sins? Rather, who is it that forces sin upon anyone?  No one! We sin because we want to; while Jesus wanted to please His Father we want to please ourselves. Who’s to blame? None other than each of us for lacking the faith to walk each moment in His will - by our doubt we turn from God and trust ourselves. Back into sin we sink. 

Was Jesus born with a spiritual nature that we don't possess? Jesus was not born with a bent to sin, He did not go astray from the womb, nor could He. Why? Because we must remember that He was also fully God (minus the glory). God cannot sin nor can God have any propensity toward evil, which is by definition that which God hates. God cannot oppose God. But fallen creation can oppose God, and in-fact can do no other apart from the restrainment of God. Do we have an excuse for our sinning by saying "unfair - we are not gods and cannot resist the law of sin".  Paul says otherwise:

Rom 8:14-15
14 --  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 --  For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!


You are not a god. But God's Spirit has indeed adopted us as His children - thus we are joined with God, in Christ, such that we both have the same Father. An astonishing thing that God the Trinity joins us within His Family - unfathomable. By this we know that we have all the riches of Christ, all that was given to Him is given to us. And one day we will throw off this carnality and gone will be this corrupt world subject to vanity. In the coming glory will be no more trial or testing. Though for a short time, a mere breath or vapor, we are aliens wrestling with a fallen nature that can only be bridled by God. Whether we live or die we belong to God and are His property - bought with a huge price. We live and die and have our being in Him.

Rom 14:7-8
7 --  For no one of us lives to himself and no one dies to himself.
8 --  For both if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Then both if we live, and if we die, we are the Lord's.


john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

da525382

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2009, 11:37:51 PM »
John,

However, it seems we must make allowance for the fact that Christ had our flesh.  Being in Mary's womb, however, could he, like David, be seen as conceived in sin?  Certainly, Christ was not conceived in sin, however, he took on our fleshiy weaknesses and inclinations, but never succombed to any of our weaknesses like we do.  The Orthodox view is very interesting to me....they argue that since Christ was EXACTLY like us (that is, 100% human) and 100% God, he could not be seen as conceived in sin as David said in the Psalms.
Therefore, they argue that we all are born UNFALLEN, too, just like Christ was (since we and He are exactly the same in the flesh).  Therefore there was no original sin to be passed on.

John

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2009, 04:28:03 PM »
Quote
However, it seems we must make allowance for the fact that Christ had our flesh.  Being in Mary's womb, however, could he, like David, be seen as conceived in sin?


Barth taught that the 'sin-inheritance' was transmitted through the male. By the covenant of works Adam's failure as the Federal Head brought condemnation upon all mankind. In this theory, it was necessary for Christ to be born apart from the agency of a man, so as not to be under the covenant of works; this being accomplished via the virgin birth.

Christ was born out of a woman, yet still under the Law.

Gal 4:4-5
4 --  But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, having come into being out of a woman, having come under Law,
5 --  that He might redeem the ones under Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


Under the Law, subject to the Law, fulfilling the Law, but not condemned by the Law. Christ was fully human but without sin. No sin could be imputed or imparted to Him, not from Adam nor from Mary (or from Joseph).

Every person is born responsible to God for their own sin. It would be incorrect to make David affirm that the act of childbirth or conception produced iniquity in him. Neither his birth, his conception, his mother or father made David sin, though this verse is used by some to teach just that.


Psa 51:5
5 --  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.


While theologians have struggled with this - in my thinking, it is the inclination toward sin due to an estrangement from God that every person has from the moment of conception. David was born with a desire for iniquity, as did his mother and father. It was not imparted by conception or imputed by the Federal Headship of Adam. David's sin was his own and belonged to no other.

However, the origin of this inclination toward sin is found in Adam, in this manner we are all "in Adam" - he being the one man through which sin entered the world. Death then passed to all men, not by genetic transmission, not by impartation, but because each sinned of their own accord. Estrangement from God is not identical with impartation of sin, nor should we think that our broken relationship with God somehow infused Adam's sin in us. We sin our own sin - but we certainly have Adam's own inclination toward sin.


Rom 5:12-13
12 --  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death passed to all men, because all sinned--
13 --  (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.



Truly, we cannot resist that inclination - the bent in our soul is something innate to our fallen nature. Because God is Holy - there can never be a time from conception onward that God finds man pleasing, we do not possess innate holiness. Even before we are born, while in the womb, we cannot please God. Why? Even before we produce an overt act that others would call sin, or formulate a sinful thought, our disposition is against God - all that emanates from our soul via our flesh and members opposes God and exalts ourselves - and is displeasing to God. That is our nature, even at the moment of conception. At conception we displease God - in sin we are conceived.

Pertaining to Christ, "... great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh", it is not a mystery that we have been given the ability to fully unravel. We know that the first Adam was initially sinless and so in keeping with a fair re-test, the second Adam was likewise sinless. We know the first Adam was tested and fell but unlike him, the second Adam did not (and could not) fall into sin. One failed the test, the other passed it.

So, rather than relying on a male transfer of sin-nature for an explanation of Christ's sinless birth - I'd rather say that Christ's soul/spirit was formed perfect by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit such that the second Adam's humanity (Christ's human nature) was equated one-to-one with the pre-fallen state of the first Adam's humanity. Like Adam, there was no bent toward sin in the soul of Jesus - why? Because there was no estrangement between God the Father and God the Son. Is this fair? I believe it is mandatory. Jesus was both to fulfill the role as the second Adam and keep His eternal relationship with His Father - it could be no other way.

If we ask, "In what way is the soul inclined toward evil", who can answer. It is known full well that we are so inclined even if we don't know exactly how. We could surmise, as soon as God broke relations with Adam and Eve, the eyes of both of them were opened and they realized they were naked. We see a shift of the soul from God-centeredness to man-centeredness immediately taking place with the advent of their sin. It might be said that toward all things "not-God" their eyes were "closed" (blind to the Light) - but being opened, they lost their "God-sightedness" (being in darkness).

So, if we are to surmise the state of the soul - it might be described as blind to God and the spiritual but seeing all that is carnal and of the Devil. We find as Christians that this state is not entirely mitigated, but that the Spirit of God in us provides the "Spiritual sight" or "Light" that we otherwise lack. Jesus was fully human - but it is not the true nature of man to be born spiritually blind - so God is not subverting anything by making the soul of Jesus upright. In fact, since the Son of God always had an Eternal Uprightness - it would be unlawful to create in Jesus a soul that was anything but in Union with the Father, upright, sinless, and full of Light and Truth.

Then, sin does not flow from Adam, neither imparted nor imputed. God separated Himself from Adam and all his descendants such that the communion was broken. We became blind toward God and actively fought against Him. However, we don't need the lack of a male-sin factor to account for Christ's sinlessness. That was not the reason Joseph was omitted. Rather, to complete the picture, we do need the father of Jesus to be the Father of the Son of God, and not Joseph. We need that relationship to remain - this answers to an upright second Adam that has full communion with the Father. Joseph would not have imparted sin to Jesus - but he would have not been the suitable Father that was necessary for the Son of God. A mortal father would not be in the likeness of the "in-kind" procreation - an Eternal Father for the Eternal Son was the Apple-Apple relationship necessitated for Christ to be God in the flesh.

Mary's genetics made Jesus fully human - there was nothing more that Joseph could have added and nothing he could have taken away in his flesh. But in the Spiritual - Joseph could never fulfill the role as Christ's father - and so he was by-passed in the incarnation. This is my thinking on the matter.

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Robert Powell

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2009, 05:28:48 PM »
Quote
However, it seems we must make allowance for the fact that Christ had our flesh.  Being in Mary's womb, however, could he, like David, be seen as conceived in sin?


Barth taught that the 'sin-inheritance' was transmitted through the male. By the covenant of works Adam's failure as the Federal Head brought condemnation upon all mankind. In this theory, it was necessary for Christ to be born apart from the agency of a man, so as not to be under the covenant of works; this being accomplished via the virgin birth.

I don't agree. I think that the bible is clear, sin was inherited from Adam. And that is why Christ was born of the same woman as the second Adam, that we might have another inheritance through him. But one leading to life rather than death. All the other is just speculation by Barth and anyone else who parrots his speculations.

 Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

He came under the law particularly because he was born of woman, born of the seed of Adam, as is all flesh. The only difference between Jesus in the flesh and man in the flesh is that he was God. So being under law (as man), Christ fulfilled it for us by never committing sin his whole life. And being without sin, made him the only one worthy to take upon himself our sins. Everything else is just speculation by this theologians and that theologian and the other theologian. Each with his own ideas about his origins, humanity, half-life, whatever, and not from the bible.

 Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 Born of a woman, born of flesh, to redeem those who were born of woman, born of flesh. I don't really see it as this great mystery expounded upon in volumes by theologians. By taking our place, becoming sin for us, and in the flesh, Christ overcame all obstacles for us..  Which is not speculation, but the word of God. Theologians make the bible way too complicated, especially Reformed theologians.

andreas

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2009, 12:08:33 AM »
<<<Then, sin does not flow from Adam, neither imparted nor imputed.>>>

When Adam and Eve sinned,we all fell with them.That we suffer as a result of Adam's sin, is explicitly taught in the bible.There is no way to avoid the the obvious teaching of the word.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5.

Adam represented all humanity.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15.

As a sersult of his sin we were all condemned.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.Romans 5.


We are the children of wrath ,by nature.

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2.

We are all under sin,we do not understand neither do we seek God.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3.

God chose our representative,an infallible and just  choice.Is there unrighteousness in God? Paul tells us,God forbid! A person represents his descentants.The sin of that person, passes down to his descendants,much the same way we are told in Hebrews.

8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.Hebrews 7.

Levi ,a distant descendant of Abraham paid tithes,for he was still in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.Abraham paid tithes which were counted to his descendants as well.We are affected by by Adam's sin ,but we are responsible for our own sins.

andreas.

kai ean diabainhs dió udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Betty

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2009, 04:51:02 AM »
Quote
Barth taught that the 'sin-inheritance' was transmitted through the male. By the covenant of works Adam's failure as the Federal Head brought condemnation upon all mankind. In this theory, it was necessary for Christ to be born apart from the agency of a man, so as not to be under the covenant of works; this being accomplished via the virgin birth.

I don't agree. I think that the bible is clear, sin was inherited from Adam. And that is why Christ was born of the same woman as the second Adam, that we might have another inheritance through him. But one leading to life rather than death. All the other is just speculation by Barth and anyone else who parrots his speculations.

 Theologians make the bible way too complicated, especially Reformed theologians.


Don't blame others for your lack of formal education or ability to understand well written literature. I had this same conversation with someone reading a book intelligently showing how women were allowed to teach and preach in Church. All he could talk about was how complicated the book was. But it wasn't the book, it was his lack of education. Not that I'm taking up for Reformed theologians, because they err in so many areas. But confusion comes from being stupid, not from educated writers.

Melanie

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2010, 12:16:08 PM »
I don't agree. I think that the bible is clear, sin was inherited from Adam. And that is why Christ was born of the same woman as the second Adam, that we might have another inheritance through him. But one leading to life rather than death. All the other is just speculation by Barth and anyone else who parrots his speculations. Theologians make the bible way too complicated, especially Reformed theologians.


Don't blame others for your lack of formal education or ability to understand well written literature. I had this same conversation with someone reading a book intelligently showing how women were allowed to teach and preach in Church. All he could talk about was how complicated the book was. But it wasn't the book, it was his lack of education. Not that I'm taking up for Reformed theologians, because they err in so many areas. But confusion comes from being stupid, not from educated writers.


 Formal education has nothing to do with anything Betty.  Just because someone has attended a university, studied Greek, writes well or speaks well, does not make him educated in my view. Peter was a fisherman, and yet I think him more educated than the learned Scribes and Pharisees that persecuted him.

 2 Timothy3:7
 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

 These people, including yourself, may learn many things, but the true knowledge and nature of Christianity seems to have evaded you. There are many people in the world, who, whatever attention they may pay to mastering the language and grammar and speaking skills, they never seem to come to the knowledge of the truth. By reading your posts I believe that you have speculative acquaintance with the doctrines of Christianity, but never become truly knowledgeable about the truth of the scriptures. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't believe the word of God the final authority on all matters of Christian doctrine. So you may be familiar with the philosophical theory of Christianity, but never truly know the absolute necessity of holding fast to the doctrines.

I agree with Bob. We have to take the Bible at what it says, not what we want to believe. And the clear word of God says sin was inherited from Adam. Why do you think that Christ was prophesied to be born of a woman of the seed of man's ancestry? Because man inherited sin and death from Adam, He became the second Adam that man could inherit righteousness and life from Him. The speculation by Barth are not on the same level as the word of God. educated or not, our authority, whether you agree with it or not, is ultimately God's word, not the doctrines of men.

Fred

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Re: Did Christ Inherit a Sin Nature From Mary
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2010, 03:12:33 PM »
Quote
Don't blame others for your lack of formal education or ability to understand well written literature.


 Formal education has nothing to do with anything Betty.  Just because someone has attended a university, studied Greek, writes well or speaks well, does not make him educated in my view.


 Spoken like one who has not gone to college :)

 Education matters!


 


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