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Author Topic: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?  (Read 16835 times)

Tony Warren

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2009, 07:18:09 PM »
>>>
 It has nothing to do with rehearsing, as if a play. You tried to make that jump because it was translated that in two places. In fact, the word rehearse doesn't even make sense in that context. No bible I know of translates it rehearse in that context.

[American Standard Version] (Judges 11:40)
that the daughters of Israel went yearly to celebrate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
<<<

You are correct of course, to read it, "that the daughters of Israel went yearly to REHEARSE the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year," makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is quite obviously a FORCED rendering of that passage. Something even the translators would not do.

The Hebrew word that is translated lament in Judges 11:40 is {tanah}, which is actually a primitive root, meaning hire. And of course by extension, it means to "pay" homage or give honor. It can be used to ascribe praise or to recount (tell again) something, like one would do in a testimonial at a funeral today. It is something that would be done in commemoration of someone who has died. The word actually fits perfectly here, since that is what the daughters of Israel went four days every year to do. To commemorate the sacrifice of the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite. Certainly there was no national holiday or custom instituted by the women of Israel simply to commemorate a virgin. That's ridiculous. It was a tribute service to this girl who gave her life, a virgin, never having known man, in "true" faith that is seldom seen. Both Her and Her father's faith, is something worth commemorating, is it not? Selah!


nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2009, 07:25:18 PM »

Do I hear a Greek/Hebrew lesson coming on? Stop!

 "Beware of gifts bearing Greek"



The original languages are not our enemy, so long as we deal with them honestly, circumspectly and without preconceived ideas about them. Unfortunately, that seems near impossible these days.


Quote
Whenever you cannot judge righteously, you trot out these Greek (and now Hebrew) lessons, as if we are all fools to be dissuaded by it.  The word lament means to honor, as in commemorating her because she offered herself in death, having never had a child. There is no call for you to try and manipulate this word in a vain attempt to change Jephthah's vow. And really, to change God's word concerning it.

Correct. They went as a testimonial to her, not to rehearse anything! They lamented the fact that she was dead, having been sacrificed, having never known a man.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

andreas

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2009, 01:38:06 AM »
<<<...what scripture are we burnt offerings, and why would that relate to Jephthah offering up, not himself, but his daughter? As a Burnt sacrifice, wholly consumed in the fire, holocaust offering? Stop trying to play God.>>>

Jesus 's death on the cross is described as a combination of offerings amongst which is a burnt offering.As you know, burnt offerings were said to be a sweet smelling aroma.

17 And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. Leviticus 1.

2 And he shall bring it to Aaron's sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: Leviticus 2.

16 And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savour: all the fat is the LORD's. Leviticus 3.

The Lord's death was also a burnt offering.

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.Ephesians 5.

True christians are therefore burnt offerings to God,when they dedicate their lives in the service of God.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs dią udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Pearson

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2009, 07:40:14 AM »
[Soapbox mode on]

Andreas,
  I hate to be piling on, but you are being dishonest in not dealing with any of the relevant scriptures that have been presented to you, and instead go on and on about how we are all burnt offerings. Despite the fact that Jephthah's vow obviously had nothing to do with a spiritual burnt offering, but with sacrificing whatever living thing came out of his door. That is so plain, it's not even debatable in my view. Yet you choose to ignore this because you can't seem to ever bear being wrong about something. Suck it up and be truthful, Jephthah was talking about sacrificing a living thing. That's the vow he made. So that has to be the vow he kept. You are digging yourself a hole in attempting to deny that by hook or crook.

As others have already said, this event was not about human sacrifice, it was about the faith to keep what you had vowed unto God. I know you'll ignore this passage like you have before, but it is still very relevant to this discussion.

 Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

It doesn't say he must keep it unless his vow is foolish or presumptuous. One of the abominations the Lord lists he hates is a "Lying Tongue". How much more Lying to Him? Do you have any idea of how really serious that is? Both Jephthah and his daughter did. Instead of casting stones at him and trying to make him out to be an abominable man if he did this, you should commemorate him, as God did.


Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]

beelsls

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2009, 12:32:38 PM »
Many today who call themselves "christians" sacrifice their own children when they teach or allow them to be taught a false gospel. I also think that some have treated the words sacrifice or kill like they a bigger sins that any other.
God said:

Matthew 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

If anyone here has so much as told a lie my bible teaches that God will punish that sin the same as if you had killed or sacrificed your own child.

Unless of course Jesus Christ has paid for your sins.

Bill
His Will Be Done

Bill

Pearson

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2009, 01:17:05 PM »
Agreed! What I'm hearing through all the noise is that this sacrifice of Jephthah would be greater sin than breaking a vow to God. That's what I hear through all the unbiblical justifications of her somehow not being sacrificed. Unfortunate that we still don't understand sin, obedience and faith.





DIpraise100

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2009, 02:16:49 PM »
I for one have found myself asking more questions as I consider this thread.  Especially when I look at the requirements for the burnt offering as stated in Lev.

Le 1:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Le 1:3
¶ If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

The burnt offering was to be male, Jephtha's daughter is female.
 
Le 1:4
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Did Jephthah place his hand on the head of his daughter before he killed her?  Was she considered an atonemnt for him?
 
Le 1:5
And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Did Jephtha kill his daughter before the LORD AND the priests and did the priests srinkle the blood of Jephthah's daughter around the alter?
 
Le 1:6
And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

Did Jephthah flay (which i believe is to slit apen and lay flat) his daughter and then cut her into pieces?
 
Le 1:7
And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
Le 1:8
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:

Did the priests lay the pieces of Jepthah's daughter, her head, the fat, etc. upon the fire on the alter?

Le 1:9
But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Did Jephthah take his daughter's organs and her legs and wash them in water before the priests burned them on the alter?
According to Lev. this is what he was to do.  And it wasn't just Jephtha who took part iin this, the priests also took part.

Also, there is another incident in the bible of a burnt offering:

Ge 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.


In this case God COMMANDED Abraham to offer his son as a burnt offering.  But God ALSO provided an animal for the sacrafice instead of allowing Abraham to sacrafice his son.  Now I realize the spiritual signifiance of this passage being that God would provide Christ the sacrafice.

Ge 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

So, my question is this:  IF Jephthah did sacrafice his daughter as Lev. commands we need to look at the spiritual signifiance of these passages. Not just that Jephthah needed to kept his vow and just matter of factly killed his daughter to do so.  It was to be done in a prescribed manner wasn't it????   I know myself when I think about Jephthah sacraficing his daughter in this manner it makes my stomach turn.   But also the fact that The Christ had to endure my sin for me is just as sickening.  I believe the WHOLE chapter needs to be considered to come to a conclusion-and in the end it is the spiritual conclusion that should give us the answer.
Praise be to God for the sacrafice of his Son for Israel!  Dianna


Pearson

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2009, 07:41:45 PM »
I for one have found myself asking more questions as I consider this thread.  Especially when I look at the requirements for the burnt offering as stated in Lev.

Le 1:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Le 1:3
¶ If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

The burnt offering was to be male, Jephtha's daughter is female.
 


 I don't think anyone has said his burnt offering was according to the law? Where did you get that idea? You may be reading this thread, but you are not hearing what people are saying. We've already said, God didn't require any burnt offering from Jephthah, and there was no law for this sacrifice. It was his foolish vow that got him into this mess. He sacrificed her because he had vowed it, not because it was law or a sweet savor unto the Lord. Again, it gets back to attempting to make this about a lawful sacrifice, which it is not. It is about a lawful vow made, that could not be broken. You are confusing the issue.






DIpraise100

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2009, 08:24:31 PM »
Person,
  I am not trying to confuse anyone and believe it or not, I am listening. 

I don't think anyone has said his burnt offering was according to the law? Where did you get that idea?

  I realize no one said it was according to the law-that is exactally why I brought it up.  Also, if you notice, I did not state THAT he did so according to the law, I asked IF he did.  Did you notice my question marks??????
  Do you suppose that when Jephthah made his VOW to offer a burnt offering that he would just "wing it"?  Or do you suppose he knew what the law required to when a person was to make a burnt offering???    Which is it??
   While we are at it, what about Jephehah faithfully keeping his VOW while at the same time breaking Gods LAW-----
Ex 20:13
Thou shalt not kill.

I really do not appreciaate you making me feel like I have asked foolish questions, have not listened and have done nothing but confuse people.  That was not my intention.   Did YOU "listen" to my post? I am wondering what the spiritual teaching is here, maybe you don't think there is one.




judykanova

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2009, 11:58:24 PM »
I for one have found myself asking more questions as I consider this thread. Especially when I look at the requirements for the burnt offering as stated in Lev.

Le 1:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Le 1:3
¶ If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

The burnt offering was to be male, Jephtha's daughter is female.
 
Le 1:4
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Did Jephthah place his hand on the head of his daughter before he killed her? Was she considered an atonemnt for him?
 
Le 1:5
And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Did Jephtha kill his daughter before the LORD AND the priests and did the priests srinkle the blood of Jephthah's daughter around the alter?
 
Le 1:6
And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

Did Jephthah flay (which i believe is to slit apen and lay flat) his daughter and then cut her into pieces?
 
Le 1:7
And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
Le 1:8
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:

Did the priests lay the pieces of Jepthah's daughter, her head, the fat, etc. upon the fire on the alter?

Le 1:9
But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Did Jephthah take his daughter's organs and her legs and wash them in water before the priests burned them on the alter?
According to Lev. this is what he was to do. And it wasn't just Jephtha who took part iin this, the priests also took part.

Also, there is another incident in the bible of a burnt offering:

Ge 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.


In this case God COMMANDED Abraham to offer his son as a burnt offering. But God ALSO provided an animal for the sacrafice instead of allowing Abraham to sacrafice his son. Now I realize the spiritual signifiance of this passage being that God would provide Christ the sacrafice.

Ge 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

So, my question is this: IF Jephthah did sacrafice his daughter as Lev. commands we need to look at the spiritual signifiance of these passages. Not just that Jephthah needed to kept his vow and just matter of factly killed his daughter to do so. It was to be done in a prescribed manner wasn't it???? I know myself when I think about Jephthah sacraficing his daughter in this manner it makes my stomach turn. But also the fact that The Christ had to endure my sin for me is just as sickening. I believe the WHOLE chapter needs to be considered to come to a conclusion-and in the end it is the spiritual conclusion that should give us the answer.
Praise be to God for the sacrafice of his Son for Israel! Dianna




SIpraise100,

Although your questions go beyond the topic of "Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?", to the question of how the sacrifice was performed, I would just like to offer that there were various types of OT burnt offerings -- including vow and peace offerings which could involve a male or female animal:

Num 15
8  And when thou preparest a bullock for a burnt offering, or for a sacrifice in performing a vow, or peace offerings unto the LORD:

Lev 3
1  And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offer it of the herd; whether it be a male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD.

Lev 3
6  And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.


Scriptures don't give details of the actual sacrifice,  and although I don't personally see any real value in doing so, you may want to start a different thread for that.

judy

'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

andreas

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2009, 01:47:18 AM »
<<<As others have already said, this event was not about human sacrifice, it was about the faith to keep what you had vowed unto God. I know you'll ignore this passage like you have before, but it is still very relevant to this discussion.>>>

No one is arguing about his faith to keep the vow.The vow had to be kept.

1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God. Eccl.5.

The controversy comes in verses 34-40.If he did sacrifice his daughter,it seems to imply acceptance by God,since he remained a judge of Israel.He was not rebuked,and there were no consequences to him.Do you not think, that such a great departure from faith should be judged?He was a man that sacrificed his daughter ,against the Mosaic law,and yet he is included in the faith hall of fame.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11.

When his daughter came out,he was in a terrible situation.If he broke his vow he would sin,and if he sacrificed her,again he would sin.He was in trouble either way.He made a dangerous vow, and is a warning to all of us,not to do what is right in our own eyes like Jephthah did,simply what was right in his eyes.

25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Judges 21.

andreas.

kai ean diabainhs dią udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Pearson

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2009, 03:40:34 AM »
  I realize no one said it was according to the law-that is exactally why I brought it up.
   Do you suppose that when Jephthah made his VOW to offer a burnt offering that he would just "wing it"?


[Soapbox mode on]
 Cute! But I don't suppose or presuppose, I expose. So once again, you''re missing the point. Note, he fell among vain men. So he vowed that "whatever" came out first, he would sacrifice. Do you suppose or think that was according to God's law? No. So yes, he was "winging" it!

As I and others have said, his whole vow was vain and unjust.
That was the opening first point.
That was the main point.
That was the moral of the story.

So yes, he just "WINGED" it, because according to law he couldn't sacrifice anything that came out unto God.


Quote
  Or do you suppose he knew what the law required to when a person was to make a burnt offering???

 Vain, foolish, presumptuous vow. Something God didn't require and Obviously by his use of the word "whatever," not according to law. A Vain, foolish, presumptuous vow.


Quote
Which is it??

We've said it twenty times, but you are not listening, no matter how you keep saying you are. Vain, foolish, presumptuous vow. You claim you are reading what we say, but it is not getting through to you..


Quote
   While we are at it, what about Jephehah faithfully keeping his VOW while at the same time breaking Gods LAW-----

Once again, try listening. He was among vain men, His vow was vain, presumptuous and obviously not according to law. And yes, many faithful Children of God broke God's law, while still holding to it in other areas. Including you, me and everyone else.   :o  :o  :o
Try Moses, Try Jonah, Try King Solomon, Try practically every man of God you can think of. Yes, they'd break some law of God, and still be faithful men of God. Don't be so high and mighty, we wouldn't be half as faithful today. And we don't even know it. But we live by faith.  You seem to think men of old were perfectly keeping God's laws. At least that seems to be what you think, judging by how you phrase this question. So you start off with a wrong assumption about God's prophets.  Another example is David. He was a great man of God of great faith, and yet he committed adultery and murdered a man. So I'll ask your same question you asked, right back at you, "While we are at it...  what about David being a faithful man of faith, while at the same time breaking Gods Laws." ...happens!

The two aren't mutually exclusive. But you say that as if the two never exist together, and obviously from scripture they do. Now, let's get back on topic of "Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter". Not if he was so perfect and vain-less, he never broke God's law.  If that was the case, God would have never told us he fell among vain men. You think there might be a reason God put that information in there?

As to the question, the answer is still yes, Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter. And nothing you or anyone else has said concerning this point, changes any of that. Or are you saving some secret scripture that shows that he never kept his vow to do just that?



Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]

Tony Warren

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2009, 05:30:19 AM »
>>>
No one is arguing about his faith to keep the vow. The vow had to be kept.
<<<

On the contrary, some are arguing that the vow didn't have to be kept, and indeed shouldn't have been kept because it was murder. So you are wrong. But back to the topic on hand, which is Jephthah's vow was to sacrifice whatever came out from his house as a burnt offering if God gave him the victory. Well, God gave him the victory. Thus what vow do "YOU" think had to be kept? The actual one that came out of his mouth, or the modern day imaginary vow of sentimental people who can't bring themselves to accept what God's word actually declares about something? The fact is, God's word cannot be manipulated according to the practicalities and sensibilities of our day. This is one of the scourges of our time, right in the vein of other modern day re-interpreting of God's word. e.g., Jonah was never physically in the belly of a fish, it was just a spiritual lesson. Or Moses never actually parted the red sea, it was a natural phenomenon or seasonal drought. Or God never literally created the world in 6 days, they were actually yoms of years of time. And likewise, Jephthah never really physically sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering. In all these things there is a common thread, and it's not coincidental. Professed Christians taking God's word plainly stated, and declaring it doesn't really mean what it says. All without any justification or Biblical precedence. You say the vow had to be kept. I agree. So the only question is, what is the vow?

Judges 11:30-31
  • "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
  • Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering."
Judges 11:36
  • "And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon."
Judges 11:39
  • "And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed:.."

God's word is as plain as the nose on my face, as is the vow, as is his being compelled to keep it. And except what passes for modern day theology, that is how it would have remained. Mut modern Christians don't like the idea of a faithful prophet killing his daughter because he made a vain and foolish vow. And so we have this corrupting, wresting of God's word so that they can feel justified in not RECEIVING what it says.

Psalms 12:6-7
  • "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
  • Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

One of the very first rules of sound hermeneutics is that God's unadulterated word is the authority, and we cannot turn to the right hand or to the left in attempting to get around it.


Quote
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The controversy comes in verses 34-40.
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The only controversy in those verses is the controversy (clash of opposing views) of some people with the word of God. The controversy of those attempting to create one in order to distract from the actual words of those scriptures. Words of God that say nothing whatsoever about a vow of celibacy, or about her being a perpetual virgin. And that's not my personal view, that is a "Biblical Fact!" Not one single word in any of those verses you offer declares this. Not One! And so, to any honest, objective, truth seeking Christian, the question must be asked,

"then where does this idea come from if not from the actual words of scripture."

The answer is that it is a private interpretation, nothing but man's supposition. If not, it would be WRITTEN just like the vow to offer a burnt offering is actually written. You see, that is because one is God's word, and the other is man's interpretation of God's word. Selah!

No, there is no controversy with God, only with men who don't like what God's word actually says about the vow, what it was, and how it had to be kept.


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If he did sacrifice his daughter,
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With faithful men/women of God, there is no if. For us, God's word is the final authority. For it is the authoritative writing, so it is the only true and trustworthy word. In my book, there is no if[. He made her a burnt offering, just as he opened his mouth and vowed unto God. Man's word notwithstanding.


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it seems to imply acceptance by God, since he remained a judge of Israel.
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Another assumption based upon nothing but speculation. You "ASSUME" that because God didn't stop Jephthah, that He agreed with Him? That's a far stretch isn't it. God is teaching Jephthah (and all of us reading this story) a lesson, and He is not obligated to stop Jephthah. Like the example Pearson made, God allowed David to commit adultery and murder. Using your logic, since he remained a King of Israel that "implied" God accepted his adultery and murder. Wrong. God allows man to sin for any number of reasons, not the least of which is chastisement and learning and growth. it doesn't imply anything of the sort about acceptance of his act.

Every time you post, you seem to come up with a "new angle" in attempting to justify changing God's word from him making her a "burnt offering" to Him making her a marriage-less servant of God. But you have offered nothing concrete in defense of this change except speculation and supposition. None of your rationalizing removes the word of God one inch away from what Jephthah actually vowed, nor his keeping "that" vow.

So let's make a long drawn out story, short. Let's just cut to the chase and get to the point. Which is, what the word of God says;

 You show me the ACTUAL scripture that says Jephthah vowing to offer a burnt offering, really means that he was actually not offering that, but to make the first thing that came out of his doors a virgin for life?

Was that the vow that came out of his mouth, or out of yours? And actually, it can be proven quite easily that the vow out of his mouth was an actual sacrifice of a burnt offering of WHATEVER came out first. Because if the vow "out of his mouth" was really simply to make a woman a perpetual virgin, then that would of necessity mean that he knew a woman would be the first thing out of his house. If that was the vow out of his mouth. That is absurd beyond belief, considering the context. And if that was not the vow out of his mouth, then God's word lied saying He did to her according to the vow "out of his mouth." Selah!

So CLEARLY the vow "out of his mouth" was not to make anyone a perpetual virgin, it was to offer whatever came out as a burnt offering. Anyone who claims the vow was to make a virgin is dealing in revisionist history. Anyone claimng he changed it later is calling the word of God a lie.

So, to recap, in order for the vow out of his mouth to be kept, of making her a perpetual virgin, that had to be the vow he made originally. The vow out of his mouth. That is biblically absurd. and proof the vow was never about virginity, and thus would be broken if he changed it to keeping her a virgin. Again, God (not man) is very specific (knowing the flesh) that he kept the vow that he originally uttered out of his mouth, not this new one of modern Christianity.

All this other peripheral stuff is all just a smokescreen to cloud the issue.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


Lieberman

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2009, 08:23:21 AM »
The only controversy in those verses is the controversy (clash of opposing views) of some people with the word of God. The controversy of those attempting to create one in order to distract from the actual words of those scriptures. Words of God that say nothing whatsoever about a vow of celibacy, or her being a perpetual virgin. And that's not my personal view, that is a "Biblical Fact!" Not one single word in any of those verses you offer declares this. Not One! And so, to any honest, objective, truth seeking Christian, the question must be asked,

"then where does this idea come from if not from the actual words of scripture."

The answer is that it is a private interpretation, nothing but man's supposition. If not, it would be WRITTEN just like the vow to offer a burnt offering is actually written. You see, that is because one is God's word, and the other is man's interpretation of God's word. Selah!

Well this thread sure brought everyone out of the closet. Welcome back guys and girls. Nearly everyone has given their opinion on it. But I think this is the bottom line. The fact that one side is quoting from scripture, word for word, and the other side is putting forth a hypothesis.


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Every time you post, you seem to come up with a "new angle" in attempting to justify changing God's word from him making her a "burnt offering" to Him making her a marriage-less servant of God.

Yes, every time that one angle is biblically shot down, another seems to pop up to take its place. Now why would that be unless one is searching for avenues around something?  Like the word tan-ah should be rehearse, not lament, then the burnt sacrifice was only spiritual as we're all burnt sacrifices, then it's an abomination to sacrifice a human and no righteous man would, then sacrifice could only be of a male, then it's a replacement vow rather than burnt offering, etc.  The wise know why this is.


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You show me the ACTUAL scripture that says Jephthah vowing to offer a burnt offering, really means that he was actually not offering that, but to make the first thing that came out of his doors a virgin for life?

 
 That's the Point! That's the Point! One is scripture, the word of God which cannot be wrong, and the other side offers nothing but interpretations. That's the POINT! That's how you know who has truth. Its always been.


andreas

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Re: Did Jephthah Sacrifice His Daughter?
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2009, 04:43:06 PM »
<<<You show me the ACTUAL scripture that says Jephthah vowing to offer a burnt offering, really means that he was actually not offering that, but to make the first thing that came out of his doors a virgin for life? >>>

You know i can not.Thanks for the direction.

andreas.
kai ean diabainhs dią udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

 


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