The Mountain Retreat

Biblical Discussions => Theology => Topic started by: Erik Diamond on September 12, 2004, 10:24:05 PM

Title: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Erik Diamond on September 12, 2004, 10:24:05 PM
Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22  And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

In verse 22, the man was sad and went away from Jesus, worrying about his wealth. But the question is the man truly saved regardless because Jesus loved him in verse 21? Does it means the man is saved?

Thanks in advance for your thought.

Erik Diamond
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: judykanova on September 14, 2004, 02:45:49 AM
Mar 10:17  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:19   Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20
  And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22  And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

In verse 22, the man was sad and went away from Jesus, worrying about his wealth. But the question is the man truly saved regardless because Jesus loved him in verse 21? Does it means the man is saved?

Thanks in advance for your thought.

Erik Diamond

Erik,

This question that Jesus posed to this rich young ruler, brings to mind the one He posed to Peter -- Not, as you say, because Jesus didn't already know the answer, but rather to teach some truth through His Word. 

Mat 16:13-17
13  When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14  And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15  He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Of course, having the full OT and NT -- the complete Word of God,  we know without question that Jesus is God, and therefore 'Good'.  I imagine a scenario where this young man instead answers this question along the same lines as Peter, namely  something like 'I call you Good Master for Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

I think we can say that at that point in time, this man did not have the indwelling Spirit as Peter did.  However, that doesn't mean that he wasn't one of God's Elect who would become saved in his lifetime.  For as you noted, this passage says "Jesus beholding him loved him".

Consider this OT passage which presents a picture or 'shadow' of Christ's great love for those He came to save:

1Sa 18:1-4
1  And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2  And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

I thinks this is a picture of the NT 'covenant' that was to come, in which Christ (like the prince Jonathan), strips Himself of his glory in order to cover us with the garments of His righteousness.  There is much more to ponder here, but I don't want to get too far off topic.

Nothing is in the Bible by 'accident'.  And there is a consistency in passages that deal with the wonderous love of Christ that never falters or fails, and is 'soul' deep --  nothing like the self-serving emotion that most humans regard as 'love'.


Consider also what Jesus taught in that same passage.  Namely that with God, the seemingly 'impossible' -- such as a camel (e.g. rich man) going through the eye of a needle --becomes possible. 

Mar 10:23-31 
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25  It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26  And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

The miracle of salvation (no less than that of a camel going through the eye of a needle) can only be gifted by God.  And His elect are known before the foundation of the world.   


Based on what Scriptures teach as a whole, I think we may say this man did become saved.
Hope these Scriptures and thoughts help.

judy
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: andreas on September 14, 2004, 03:48:11 AM
<<<In verse 22, the man was sad and went away from Jesus, worrying about his wealth. But the question is the man truly saved regardless because Jesus loved him in verse 21? Does it means the man is saved?>>>

 The young man was under some delusions regarding salvation.
He thought that salvation could be obtained by something he could do.Verse 17.However we know otherwise.
" It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy!"
Secondly he thought that the law can save him.Verse 20.
Again we know that is not the case, for , "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified!"
The man went away.Verse 22,so we may conclude that at the time, he was not saved,but later on he was,for we are told that Jesus loved him.Verse21
.One of the attributes of God is immutability,and if Jesus loved him, then he was saved.If God loves you, He will always love you.
"Having loved His own which were in the world,He loved them unto the end". John 13:1
andreas. 8)
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Carol on September 14, 2004, 08:32:59 AM

Mar 10:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Perhaps the Lord Jesus meant:  'Since you don't believe I'm God, why do you call me good?  There is none good but God.'

And I also believe that the Rich Young Ruler was later regenerated because of reasons already stated by Judy & Andreas.  Would God send someone to hell to pay for their own sins that he loves?  I don't think so.  I believe that all that God loves, Christ died for, and they will all go to heaven to be with him someday.  Otherwise, what would be the benefit of his love?

A good verse by Andreas:

Having loved His own which were in the world,He loved them unto the end.   John 13:1

Many Blessings,
Carol
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Sandy on September 14, 2004, 01:42:23 PM
Regarding the answers given above...I am wondering why the two parallel references to this story in Matt. 19:16-22, and Luke 18:18-23 don't mention Christ loving the rich young ruler?  Are we certain that the love mentioned in Mark is salvific love?

Sandy
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Carol on September 14, 2004, 06:09:04 PM
Hi Sandy

You're right, it doesnt mention Christ's love in the other two references, but since it does in Mark, then I believe it is true. 

As far as whether it is salvific love, I must ask, what other kind of love is there with God?  Are there verses that tell of two kinds of love?  If so, please present them.  That becomes very confusing to me, to think that God loves someone, but doesnt save them, when we know he is 'perfectly' able to do so. 

Thanks.
Many Blessings,
Carol
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Sandy on September 14, 2004, 09:37:25 PM
Hi Carol,

What started me wondering is John 3:16...God so loved the world.  The proper rendering of this verse of course is not that God loves all of humanity, but rather in this manner He loved.  That is He gave His only begotten Son to whomever would believe.  I wonder if this is the sense in which He loves the rich young ruler in the text?  In other words He loved so that He gave him the way... take up the cross, and follow Me.  I simply believe that stating unequivocally that this rich young ruler is among the elect is reading into Scripture what is not there.  I am among those who believe that God does indeed show a 'common' love for all of His creation.  The rain falls on the unjust as well as the just etc.  And it is in this manner that He states His love here.

Many Blessings to you as well.
Sandy       
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: GoldRush on September 14, 2004, 09:56:10 PM
 
Quote
I am among those who believe that God does indeed show a 'common' love for all of His creation.  The rain falls on the unjust as well as the just etc.  And it is in this manner that He states His love here.

Rain nor sunshine equates to Godly love.

Nor does God "love" all men.

For God loves only those elect found blameless and acceptable in Jesus Christ, through His most ~uncommon~ grace.

J&R



Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Illuminated on September 15, 2004, 11:29:03 AM

As far as whether it is salvific love, I must ask, what other kind of love is there with God?  Are there verses that tell of two kinds of love?  If so, please present them.  That becomes very confusing to me, to think that God loves someone, but doesnt save them, when we know he is 'perfectly' able to do so. 


Carol,

     I believe Sandy is on the right track here.  There is in fact another kind of love that is mentioned in scripture - the love that we are called to show to our enemies.

Matthew 5
43   Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44   But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45   That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Luke 6
34   And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35   But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36   Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


Proverbs 25
21   If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22   For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.


There is no greater love that we can show to our enemies than to share with them the glorious gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ, so that they might know the way and be saved.  This is what is meant by giving bread to our enemy when he is hungry (Jesus Christ, the true bread that came down from heaven) and water to our enemy when he is thirsty (the Holy Spirit, the living water flowing from Christ).  This is the only bread and water that can truly save someone, and the fact that we show love by offering it doesn't necessarily mean that the person will accept it and be saved.  We are called to share this message with everyone, but only those chosen from the foundation of the world will hear it, receive it and be saved.  The rest come under judgment.
     This is the same type of love that Jesus was demonstrating to the rich young ruler.  He showed him the way of salvation.

Mark 10
19   Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20   And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21   Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22   And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23   And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


     The fact that this man walked away saddened and grieving because he did not want to give up his possessions is an indication that he was not saved.  Riches and material possessions are used as spiritual pictures to describe self-righteousness. 

Revelation 3
14   And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15   I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16   So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17   Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18   I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


This passage of scripture is not describing people who are literally rich and increased with goods any more than it is describing people who are literally poor, blind and naked.  This is spiritual language used to describe those who are not in Christ, but instead trusting in themselves and their own work for their salvation, believing that they are good enough in and of themselves to be righteous in God's eyes (just like the rich young ruler who thought he could be saved by keeping the commandments).  These people are spiritually "rich" (self-righteous) and they will not find salvation in this condition.  We must be spiritually "poor" (recognizing our destitute and hopeless condition, and our need for a savior).

Matthew 5
3   Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


     The story of the rich young ruler is recorded in Luke chapter 18 also, and just before it, we are told a parable illustrating the condtion of the spiritually rich and the spiritually poor.

Luke 18
9   And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10   Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11   The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12   I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13   And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14   I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


The pharisee was "rich", the publican was "poor".  It is the poor man who will be justified.  God has a strong warning for those who are rich:

James 5
1   Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2   Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3   Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.


     Please don't think this is only talking about material possessions.  It is describing the spiritual condition of these people and the judgment that awaits them because they trusted in themselves and not in Jesus Christ.  These people are the women described in Isaiah chapter 4.

Isaiah 4
1   And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.


This cannot be.  We can't have it both ways.  We can't eat our own bread, and wear our own clothes, and still be called by the name of Christ.  Our own bread is molded, and our own clothes are filthy rags.  We need the bread of life (Jesus) and we must be clothed with His robes of righteousness.  This is the only way to find salvation.  The rich young ruler is a picture of man who wanted to do it his own way, and could not accept that he needed help.  He needed a savior, but he walked away, clinging to his worthless possessions.  He was not saved.
     Luke 19 on the other hand, gives us a picture of a rich man who was willing to give up his riches and follow Christ.  This man was saved.

Luke 19
1   And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2   And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3   And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4   And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5   And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6   And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7   And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8   And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9   And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


Grace and peace to you,

William
Quote
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Sandy on September 15, 2004, 01:25:09 PM
Goldrush,

If it is true that God loves only His elect, and further true that He shows no love toward those who are not among His elect, then how do you respond to the love of God demonstrated throughout the OT toward the Nation of Israel?  Again and again God says that He loves them, and yet most of those died in the wilderness in unbelief.  If they died in unbelief, they were certainly not among the elect of God.  What do you call it, if not love, when Jesus cries for the people "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!  How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"  And what about the compassion Christ shows for the multitudes?  Is this not a picture of love?  If not, what can we call it?  "Then Jesus called His disciples to Him and said, "I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now continued with Me three days and have nothing to eat.  And I do not want to send them away hungry, lest they faint on the way."  There are many, many demonstations of Christ's love for mankind throughout the NT, yet for the most part these remained reprobate.  To say that Christ has no 'common' love for all man is to make altogether void the covenant God makes with mankind.  His covenant has always included both wheat and tares.  And those tares living among the covenant people most certainly do recieve many blessings through the love of Christ.  This love which is now demonstrated through His people.  We show the love of Christ everytime we respond in a loving and compassionate way toward not only the elect, but all humanity.  Of course the greatest of love being, as Illuminated states, to share with them the glorious gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ.  Do you think this is our natural love and affection for them?  Or, is this the love of Christ living and doing through His chosen instruments? 

God most assuredly demonstates a 'common' love toward His whole creation.  If not for the love of God we would have destroyed His marvelous creation long ago.  Yes, there is a saving love of Christ reserved for the elect, but this is by no means the only love that Christ has for mankind. 

Sandy         
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Carol on September 15, 2004, 06:12:44 PM
Hello William,
Quote
This is the same type of love that Jesus was demonstrating to the rich young ruler.  He showed him the way of salvation.

If God loved him and wanted him saved, why would he not save him?  He certainly had the power to do so.  Wouldn't you save one of your rebellious children from hell if you could?  Isn't that because you love them?  What kind of love would it be, to stand by and watch them rebelliously go to hell, when you have the power to save them?  As I said, that just doesn't make sense to me.  What benefit is God's love then if it has no power to save?  Just to make us have a little better life for our 70 or so years here on earth?

James 4:14  Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 

God loves with an everlasting love.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Quote
The fact that this man walked away saddened and grieving because he did not want to give up his possessions is an indication that he was not saved.

I do not believe he was regenerated right then either, I believe it happened later in his life.

And I completely agree with your assessment about the spiritual meaning of being poor and being rich and performing works to acheive salvation vs. being 'in Christ.'  It was very good, I thought and enjoyed reading it, but I don't see what that has to do with whether or not God loves everyone in the world.

Many Blessings,
Carol[/color]
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Sandy on September 15, 2004, 11:10:38 PM
Hi Carol,

What if we pose the question differently?  Instead of asking why Christ does not save all men, ask why He bothers to save any man? 

Sandy
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Carol on September 16, 2004, 11:09:24 AM
A good question Sandy.  But I think the word 'save' in that question is interchangeable with the work 'love.' 

To love someone would be to save them from harm, if you have the power to do so.  And we know that God certainly does have the power.  And how wonderful that he does love/save some when certainly none of us, in ourselves, deserve it.

To love someone and send them to hell in order to allow them the freedom of their will is a pitiful kind of love, in my opinion.

John 13:1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Many Blessings,
Carol

 
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Sandy on September 16, 2004, 12:51:52 PM
Carol,

Christ does not send any to hell.  Those who are not in Christ go to hell because they remain in their sin.  It is a heart condition, wickedness beyond comprehension.  I cannot tell you why God chose only an elect number of humans to save, or why He chose whom He chose, but fact is, He did.  What I can say is that God desired to have a people for Himself, and if He had not intervened in the lives of some men, then no man would be saved.  So ask yourself, what is more loving and compassionate...to leave all mankind in their sin, and save no man, or to choose to save some men to show His glory, His mercy, His grace?

Many blessings
Sandy     
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Melanie on October 23, 2012, 10:58:37 AM
In verse 18, I was wondering why Jesus asked the man for calling Him good?  I know that Jesus is God and He is good, but why did he ask man anyway?

Thanks in advance for your thought.



Because He wanted to show the man that he misunderstood the law, and that in reality no man was good. Every man is unrighteous and needs a Savior! Why call a man good when no man is good.

 Psalms 53:2-3
  "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
  Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one".

 That he should have been more careful with the law to know that there is no man that is good. All are in need of a Savior.
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Reformer on October 24, 2012, 01:55:48 AM
Mark 10:17-18 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

As Melanie says, Christ is teaching the rich young ruler his error in understanding the law and the prophets. He is demonstrating in His question that man has two needs. #1., He needs to understand exactly who Jesus was if He was good. And #2., He needed to understand that no man was good. By Christ asking the man, "why callest Thou me good," He is really giving him a two-fold answer. That one, since there is none good but God, if you are calling Jesus good, you are calling Jesus God. And two, that the law clearly states that no man is good (Psalms 53:2-3; Romans 3:12), it is proven this man was not righteous as he thought, but was in need of a Savior.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Self-justification or self-righteousness is what Christ was demonstrating here. The rich young ruler thought he was a righteous man (Matthew 19:20), when before God he was actually a sanctimonious lawbreaker headed for hell.   So he needed to repent of his high view of himself, and it is the Lord, who is truly good, who would provide the help of righteousness in this area.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

The only way fot man to  be good, is to be saved by Christ. In this scenareo we see a general picture of the average person, christian or non-christian, who believes that he is really a good person deep down in his heart. This leads them to believe that God will reward them "because" they are relatively good people. As this righ young ruler, they don't really understand that being a relatively good person will not get anyone into heaven. How good does a person need to be in order to go to heaven? Well, he has to be perfect, one without any fault at all.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
 
This rich young ruler believed in his own righteousness (Matthew 19:20) to bring him close to God, while Christ is teaching that he really didn't understand the law, and was himself a lawbreaker headed for hell. Christ is teaching that in order to be a good man, he has to be totally righteousness. He has to repent of his self-righteousness and turn to the Lord, the only good man who could help him in this area unto salvation.

Psalm 34:8: O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Trust in the true riches for salvation, not in temporal possessions or self-righteousness. Trust in God, who alone will save.

Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Curtis on October 24, 2012, 11:01:44 AM
Are you sure the rich young ruler in Mark 10 didn't die in his sin? I know it says:  "Then Jesus, beholding him (the rich young ruler), loved him."  But why did he go away sad?
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: laurenp on December 11, 2014, 08:55:26 PM
"21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions."

Was this young ruler an elect of God? I ask because it says Jesus "loved" him. I don't believe in common love so I assumed he must've been elect but so many people say that it was a "human compassion/love" that he had for the young ruler, not an electing love, and that proof of his reprobation is that he went away sorrowful. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: billnjune on December 12, 2014, 12:57:53 PM
Laurenp,

It appears that no one is eager to answer your questions, so I will give you my thoughts:
 :iagree:
I believe that you are correct with your analysis.  Although, this is a conclusion from silence (nothing is said about him again), it is rather clear, that God loves his elect and does not love the non-elect. 
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: clark thompson on December 12, 2014, 06:30:36 PM
I believe the man loved his riches more than God.
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: billnjune on December 12, 2014, 06:50:58 PM
I believe the man loved his riches more than God.

that might be so, but the question was:
Was this young ruler an elect of God?

This seems to make it difficult to understand how God could love one while he is putting the world above God?  An amazing thought:

Romans 5:7-10 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


God's love is truly amazing

Bill
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Reformer on December 13, 2014, 12:52:34 AM
I believe the man loved his riches more than God.

I don't believe that. If so, then why did he go away sad and grieved because of what Christ said? Rich men don't grieve when told they have to give away their riches unless they have to give away their riches. What's to grieve over if you have no intention of doing what was asked? You'd go away in a huff saying "I'm not doing that, you must be crazy." To be sad assumes he's sad about giving up something not sad because he's not giving up anything.  What reprobate who is rich do you know that would go away grieved when someone said they had to give up their riches. They might go away laughing, or go away disappointed, or angry or they would simply find a religion where they wouldn't have to give up their riches. Which they would find in abundance everywhere as they are as common as grass. Even there in Israel.

I think he was saddened and grieved because God touched his heart and he was moved to come to the realization of these things he had to so. That is what brings grief and sorrow to someone rich, not someone asking him to do something he has no intention of doing. Moreover, Christ loved him and that's enough to have us consider that his grief was God induced as the beginning of repentance and change. People don't change instantly, there is a time of Sanctification. I believe because Christ loved this man, in time he came to be saved because he was an elect, loved of God.

His grief and sadness at Christ's words far from supporting him as an unchanged reprobate, shows me he was involved in change because he was sad and grieved. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was at the first a Persecutor  of Christians, but he was also an elect who was moved to glory and sanctification afterward. Who changed his heart except He who loved him?

Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Clifford Grodin on December 14, 2014, 03:36:38 AM
The Salvation of the Rich Young Ruler

Rev. Angus Stewart

 

Matthew, Mark and Luke all record the touching scene in which a wealthy, religious leader in his twenties or early thirties, usually referred to as the rich young ruler, comes to Christ and, kneeling before Him, asks about inheriting eternal life.

The good news is that the Lord Jesus "loved" the rich young ruler (Mark 10:21)! This young man is in fine company, along with John, the beloved disciple; Lazarus, Mary and Martha (John 11:5); the believing leper (Mark 1:41); and all God's people in all ages and lands. "Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it" (Song 8:7); how much more the deep, unchangeable, powerful love of God in Christ Jesus from which nothing in the present or future, nothing in life or death, nothing in the universe, not even Satan or sin, is "able to separate us" (Rom. 8:38-39)! All whom Jesus loves, He loves "unto the end" (John 13:1), for He is "the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" -Hebrews. 13:8!

Christ loved the rich young ruler, even though he was self-righteous and loved money (Mark 10:20, 22). Jesus loved him from before the foundation of the world, when He died for his sins on the cross (John 10:15; 15:13), when He renewed his heart and into eternity. In His amazing grace, the Son of God loved the rich young ruler (and all His people) "with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness" He drew him (Jer. 31:3).

Out of love for the rich young ruler, Christ spoke to him of his sinful love of money, calling him to repentance. The young man went away, as Jesus commanded him, to count the cost (Mark 10:21-22). His grief and sadness was not a worldly sorrow but a "godly sorrow [that] worketh repentance to salvation" (II Cor. 7:10).

As Jesus explained, it is "hard," even "impossible" with men, for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, because we are so prone to "trust in riches," but "with God all things are possible" (Mark 10:23-27)! Our God, the God of the impossible, gave a son to Sarah, a barren ninety-year-old, and her hundred-year-old husband, Abraham (Gen. 18:14); brought Israel back from the Babylonian captivity (Jer. 32:17); and caused the virgin Mary to conceive and bear the incarnate Son of God (Luke 1:37)! He can and did the impossible in converting the rich young ruler, as He has done for many like him, both before and since!

That look of love that the Saviour cast upon the rich young ruler two thousand years ago (Mark 10:21; Ps. 4:6), he continually beholds in heaven from the face of the glorified Christ who loved him and gave Himself for him (Gal. 2:20). What amazing grace and what an amazing salvation for all who forsake their sins and trust in Christ alone and not their own good works or riche
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Robert Powell on December 14, 2014, 10:38:55 AM
I believe the man loved his riches more than God.

Christ doesn't love those who love their riches more than God. In fact, He calls them fools (Luke 12:16-21), not those whom He loves.

Psalms 5:5
 "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity".
 
The scriptures tell us that God hates all workers of iniquity, and it also tells us that Christ beheld and loved this rich young ruler. So then, if we accept the authority of scripture, then this ruler was an elect of God, whom Christ loved. And Christ loves with perfect love, not as man loves.

1 John 4:18-19
 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us".
 
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Fred on December 14, 2014, 02:57:55 PM
Are any of you actually reading the text? This man was obviously not saved. Christ told him to do something and he left Christ because he couldn't do it. What more proof do you need?
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: billnjune on December 14, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
I believe the man loved his riches more than God.

I don't believe that. If so, then why did he go away sad and grieved because of what Christ said? Rich men don't grieve when told they have to give away their riches unless they have to give away their riches. What's to grieve over if you have no intention of doing what was asked? You'd go away in a huff saying "I'm not doing that, you must be crazy." To be sad assumes he's sad about giving up something not sad because he's not giving up anything.  What reprobate who is rich do you know that would go away grieved when someone said they had to give up their riches. They might go away laughing, or go away disappointed, or angry or they would simply find a religion where they wouldn't have to give up their riches. Which they would find in abundance everywhere as they are as common as grass. Even there in Israel.

I think he was saddened and grieved because God touched his heart and he was moved to come to the realization of these things he had to so. That is what brings grief and sorrow to someone rich, not someone asking him to do something he has no intention of doing. Moreover, Christ loved him and that's enough to have us consider that his grief was God induced as the beginning of repentance and change. People don't change instantly, there is a time of Sanctification. I believe because Christ loved this man, in time he came to be saved because he was an elect, loved of God.

His grief and sadness at Christ's words far from supporting him as an unchanged reprobate, shows me he was involved in change because he was sad and grieved. Look at the Apostle Paul. He was at the first a Persecutor  of Christians, but he was also an elect who was moved to glory and sanctification afterward. Who changed his heart except He who loved him?
Reformer,
 :GoodPopst: This was a very excellent and well thought our explanation.  God has blessed you with a great understanding and ability to write.

Bill
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: billnjune on December 14, 2014, 08:52:22 PM
Are any of you actually reading the text? This man was obviously not saved. Christ told him to do something and he left Christ because he couldn't do it. What more proof do you need?

Hi Fred,

No one is saying that the rich ruler was saved, but we are saying that he was elect.  If you read Reformers post about Paul and then think about the difference between being elect vs being saved, I think that it might make some sense to you. 

An elect person is one who is loved and chosen (predestined) by God.  It is totally impossible for an elect person to die in his sins and to go to Hell before he is saved (redeemed, regenerated, adopted, justified and sanctified).  I realize that the Arminians have a different view, but I am so sorry, but they are wrong and that mistake will prevent them from going to Heaven, because they are trying to merit Heaven by their works (actions).

Bill
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: lpowell on December 14, 2014, 09:37:50 PM
Amen.  To wonder if this his grieving response is part of his salvation process is to miss the context of the chapter.

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

... rich young ruler ...

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

The rich young ruler was just the illustration of the same thing the disciples voiced.  They were all grieving over recognition that nothing in them or in their past has any bearing on getting into heaven.  There are only two ways to view it.  There is the disciple whom Jesus loved and there are the disciples who try to love Jesus.  And like Peter, all in the second category have to reach the point of 'Peter do you love me?'  After the cross, Peter knew he could not use the word agape love that Christ Jesus used as in:

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Lloyd
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Frank Mortimer on January 05, 2015, 07:00:44 AM
He is demonstrating in His question that man has two needs. #1., He needs to understand exactly who Jesus was if He was good. And #2., He needed to understand that no man was good.

 :word: Thus if Christ was good, He was God.  :BibleRead:

Curtis, I believe that he went away sad because he knew he had to give away his wealth.
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: laurenp on June 27, 2016, 07:27:05 PM
Retouching this topic, having reread the responses, I have to ask - how do we know exactly what type of grief this man had when Christ told him to sell all he had and follow him? It seems that most are saying he was mourning of a godly type- that he was pricked in conscience and grieved over his sinful love for riches. But to me, when I study the verse, it seems that he is not *yet* grieving in a repentant way, but still focused on his own precious goods and sad or scared that he has to give it all up. Since he's still technically unsaved at that moment, and full of self rrighteousness as obviously appears in the preceding verses, it appears his first gospel call did not do an immediate work of repentance but rather irked his flesh, not getting the hopeful answer he expected. Look at what it says:

Matthew 19:22: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions

And then in response to his reaction, which Christ perceived and knew, Christ says this to all around him:

 "And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!" (From Luke) Different books but same scenario.

What I get from this is that Jesus saw his grief over having to give up his possessions, and used that as a warning to everyone that a man *like this* (young ruler) can scarcely enter the kingdom of heaven. But, that only goes to extol his grace all the more because He actually *loved* a type of sinner who could rarely get into the kingdom. That instead of immediately pronouncing doom upon the man for his rejection (not ultimate rejection but current) of the gospel terms, he actually saves him! As evidenced by Mark 10:21, Jesus "loving him". Of course that gives that the man would ultimately come to his senses and be brought to true penitence over this and all other sins. But as someone noted sanctification doesn't happen all at once and one who first hears the gospel *usually* is not converted and brought to repentance immediately but goes through some type of spiritual struggle before he finally surrenders all, and then mourns for his folly of the love of riches. I say *usually* because I know everyone's conversion experience is as different as we are people, but most that I've read of have been of that sort, rather than the immediate type like Saul. I could be wrong, but just a conjecture based on the thousands of spiritual/conversion narratives I've read ::).

Anyways back to the topic, that is my understanding of the scenario, but I would indeed be interested to know if this was the man's initial "repentance" or godly mourning, as is purported. Because to me, so far, it seems the opposite. That while indeed elect and beloved of Christ, he still was in his sins at the time and though curious to obtain eternal life the right way, he appeared much 'grieved' at the unbeknownst cost of it, and went away sorrowful *because* he had so many possessions that he was not *yet* ready to give up. Surely as Robert Powell said, God hates those who choose money over him. But he also hates liars, thieves, adulterers, drunkards, prostitutes, etc. And yet He loved and  saved countless of them. So might it not be the same case with the ruler? As "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"...while he was yet in unrepentant sin, Christ loved him?

Also another thing I am wondering is whether or not the riches in this scenario represent self-righteousness more than actual money. Because a.) the man was highly self-righteous and b.) I've heard it said before that Christ here is not actually saying that wealthy people never enter the kingdom of God, but is referring to our own man made spiritual riches. Because as they said (believe it was Tony), if wealthy people were generally discluded from the kingdom of God, then there goes like half the Saints in the old testament. Just another curiosity of mine.
Title: Re: Was the Rich Young Ruler Saved as an elect of God?- Mark 10:21
Post by: Melanie on September 22, 2017, 07:40:32 AM
A good response.

David J. Engelsma: “However one might explain Mark 10:17-22, the incident of the rich young ruler who asked Jesus about inheriting eternal life and went away grieved, Jesus’ love for the rich ruler was a saving love, that is, a love that desired his salvation. The context concerns inheriting eternal life (v. 17) and entering the kingdom of God (vv. 23-31). If, then, the rich ruler perished in his sins, it is possible that the Christ of God loves a man with a love that desires his salvation, but that He fails, nevertheless, to accomplish the desired salvation. This necessarily raises the further question, ‘Did Christ in His love for and desire to save some persons who yet perish also carry this love and desire to save to the cross?’ For Mark 10:32ff. proclaims the cross, especially verse 45: ‘… the Son of man came … to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many.’ In this case, Christ died for persons who go lost forever. The doctrine of limited atonement is denied. Scripture condemns the notion of a universal, ineffectual Messianic love as false. Christ loved ‘His own,’ loved them “unto the end,” gave Himself to the cross for them alone, and effectually gives eternal life to every one of the (see John 13:1, 18; 17:1ff .). From the fact that Jesus loved the rich ruler, we may, must, and can only conclude that the rich ruler was one of the elect and that, later, he was converted, gladly selling all he had, giving to the poor, and following Christ. Jesus suggests as much in verses 23-27: what is impossible with men is possible with God, even the salvation of a rich man.” [4]