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Author Topic: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?  (Read 367 times)

Erik Diamond

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Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« on: September 11, 2017, 06:18:11 PM »

I was having an debate with someone last night who believe in Free Will. He also believe that Christian can lose salvation if they fall away or sin willingly.  I explained my position that once people are sealed by God, they will never lose salvation.  Something like: 

Joh 10:27-29
[27]  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28]  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29]  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Then he balked at the idea and shew me the following verse:

Eph 4:30
[30]  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

He argued that if one is sealed by God unto the day of redemption, and if that means he won't lose salvation regardless, then why God warned him not to grieve the Holy Spirit. To him, it sounds like he could lose salvation if he grieve the Holy Spirit.

Anyone like to comment on that. 

I also like to know exactly what it means to grieve the Holy Spirit of God? How?


Thank you.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2017, 03:04:32 AM »
>>>
I was having an debate with someone last night who believe in Free Will. He also believe that Christian can lose salvation if they fall away or sin willingly.
<<<

You can't lose a free gift, else it's not free and necessarily requires something. That's not grace nor Salvation, as Salvation is by the unmerited favor of God. Meaning we didn't earn it by continually doing things that prevent us from losing it. Salvation was unmerited, a free gift bestowed upon man in God's unmerited favor. If one were to "fall away" from God, then He never had received the seal/security of the Spirit of God in the first place. Like the children of God in the wilderness who rejected Christ, they were merely part of the external body, but never truly the children of God in the redeemed sense.

Galatians 3:26
  • "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

We are children of God by the faith of Christ, not by us attaching labels, or by being called Christian, or by a particular bloodline or group. Those redeemed should never grieve the Lord, as that is those who vex, afflict, offend and anger God. The church is thus warned, do not be as one of them.


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I explained my position that once people are sealed by God, they will never lose salvation.  Something like: 

Joh 10:27-29
[27]  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28]  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29]  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
<<<

Exactly, they hear God's word, they follow Christ and they "never" perish. That's what Scripture reports. Does Christ claim they could perish, or that God didn't give them eternal life, or that God is not greatest that they can't be plucked out of His hand? It keeps getting back to receiving authority of Scripture. What is our authority? Is it God's word or our personal opinion? The Lord is not going to cast anyone out that has been chosen, so that they might lose their salvation. That whole idea is unbiblical.

John 6:37
  • "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

In "no way" will the Lord do that. How is this changed to, "Christ will cast you out if you commit sin" or that those redeemed can be cast out after coming toi Him? So again, we have the authority of God's word, versus man's personal opinions and private interpretations. One of the basic rules of sound exegesis is that one Scripture cannot contradict another.


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Then he balked at the idea and shew me the following verse:
Eph 4:30
[30]  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

He argued that if one is sealed by God unto the day of redemption, and if that means he won't lose salvation regardless, then why God warned him not to grieve the Holy Spirit.
<<<

The same reason God warns the church that when the false christs and false prophets arise, we are NOT to believe them (Matthew 24:26). Or the same reason why the Lord warns the church to be sure to make their calling and election sure (2nd Peter 1:10). Or the same reason He warns the messenger of the church (Revelation 2:5) to remember from where he had fallen and repent, or else He would remove his church out of his place. God warns the corporate church all the time. That's because in God's church there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth--and some to honor, and some to dishonor. So where is the mystery? It's no mystery why God warns His people to not grieve the Holy Spirit wherein the church is redeemed anymore than why He warns us to cast not that which is Holy unto dogs, or to turn away from all unrighteousness, or to not commit adultery, or not to divorce or any other "don't" that He warns us about. It's not because once you become a new creation, you can revert to your old self, it is because some never became a new creation.

2nd Peter 2:21-22
  • "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
  • But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

You say he argued that if one is sealed by God unto the day of redemption, and if that means he won't lose salvation regardless, then why would God warn him not to grieve the Holy Spirit. It is because God is speaking to His whole house and everyone in it, not all of whom are saved. I say that if one is sealed by God unto the day of redemption, and if that means he won't lose salvation regardless (which it must), then God warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit because that would mean we really haven't made our calling and election sure and is not the character of those who were redeemed. I'm sure many of us know people who claim they are Christians but live exactly like the world, with absolutely no discernible difference. This is why God says, in context, "A Tree is known by its fruits."


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I also like to know exactly what it means to grieve the Holy Spirit of God? How?
<<<

Ephesians 4:30
  • "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Briefly, when the Scriptures say do not grieve the Holy Spirit, it is illustrating that the Spirit of Holy God is within us and the presence of sin is vexing or grievous to Him. Why then would a true child of God live in sin when he knows this and God is working within him to will and to do? It in no way illustrates that we cannot sin, nor that if we do we will lose salvation, rather it illustrates those who live in sin, grieve the Holy Spirit. For how shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer in such sins? The true child of God "hears" God and has an earnest desire to do His will because they understand that it is grievous to a Holy and Perfect God "when" we sin. But the pretender has no earnest desire to be Holy and not sin--to not grieve the Holy Spirit. He goes along eating and drinking just like the world in the same lusts and sins, while continuing to claim to be a redeemed Christian (follower of Christ).

1st Peter 1:14-16
  • "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
  • But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
  • Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

That's another way of saying, don't grieve the Holy Spirit by sinning like the world, but earnestly seek to be lawful/sinless, to be Holy, to do the will of God in all things. To grieve means to be afflicted and by the Spirit it should always be our desire not to be rebellious against God or offend the Spirit by living in sin. That behavior would not be an indication God will remove His salvation from you, but rather that you had never truly had it in the first place--A Tree is known by its fruits. Even as the rebellious house of Israel.

Isaiah 63:10
  • "But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."
Psalms 78:40
  • "How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!"

The exact same principle. This is not a portrait of God's people in belief and then losing it, but one of the unbelief of God's people and how it grieved the Spirit of God. These people weren't sealed unto the day of redemption, they died in the wilderness because of unbelief (no sealing). They weren't saved and then lost their salvation in the wilderness, they were never saved as Moses and Abraham were. Those who are truly saved will not grieve the Holy Spirit whereby they were secured, by turning again to live in sin. For that would betray their true nature. It would happen to them according to the true proverb,

 "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (2nd Peter 2:22)."

Not that they had become a new creature in Christ, but that they were all still the same dog, the same sow. Never had become a new creature.

Romans 6:1-2
  • "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
  • God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Clearly the Lord is declaring again that a tree is known by its fruits. Do we look for figs among the thorns and do we of a bramble bush gather grapes? No. Neither were the Scribes and Pharisees, members of God's house, redeemed by the covenant of the Messiah they looked forward to.

Moreover, the very context of Ephesians 4:30 itself illustrates it is an exhortation against rebellion and that we refrain from living in sin. i.e., that we make our calling and election sure (2nd Peter 1) by not returning to the former lusts of our carnal nature in sin. Likewise:

1st John 3:9
  • "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

That's like asking why would God say we can't sin if we do commit sin? The answer is because in Christ Jesus, though our sins be as scarlet, they as white as snow in Christ Jesus (Isaiah 1:18). In Christ we are perfect, completely righteous where there is no sin seen before God because it has "all" been atoned for. God is not saying that we are perfect people in the flesh, or that we will lose our salvation if we commit a sin (an impossible requirement for salvation), nor that that we could lose that righteousness if we aren't perfect (making Salvation by our works), but an exhortation that Christ is our righteousness making us perfect in God's sight[/i].  To grieve Him, God's people would continue live in sin, show their anger, hate their brother or sister, have malice or a desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on others, etc., etc. As of course is illustrated in the very context of the passage in question. These are things the Spirit will not be a party to.

Ephesians 4:30-32
  • "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
  • Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
  • And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

The question is "how do we grieve the Holy Spirit?" And the answer is given in these examples. By being bitter, showing hostility or resentment toward others. By having wrath and anger, by causing a tumult, by evil speaking and by all malice toward others. By indulging in unkindness one to another, and showing no tenderhearted or compassion. And by refusing to forgive one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven us. These things listed in the context are sinful and grieve the Spirit of God. It should be our earnest desire to put them away from us and not live in them. i.e., a tree is known by its fruits. Bondage to sin is not the liberty in Christ.

Galatians 5:13
  • "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another."

Why does God warn the church not to use their liberty for an occasion to the flesh? The same reason He warns it not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Because that is uncharacteristic of true Spirit filled Christianity. We are free, but not free to live in sin. To be of the house of God and yet continue to live in sin is grievous to God, antithetical to the Spirit's sealing, and a good indication that you have not made your calling and election sure where you could never fail. We should understand that there are many Christians who are Christians in name only, but who have not truly made sure they were sealed and elect.

2nd Peter 1:7-11
  • "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
  • For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
  • Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
  • For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Second, the text of Ephesians 4:30 says grieve not the Spirit Whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. That word "sealed" means stamped as with a mark of security. As in the old days letters would be stamped or secured with wax so all would know that it was "secure" and not been opened. The Holy Spirit in us is a sealing or securing of us. It is not temporarily, but secured unto the day of redemption. This sealing of the Spirit necessarily implies the irrevocable purpose of God that we reach the day of our salvation. It is the Holy Spirit of God that is our security, assuring the saints are preserved wherein Satan cannot any longer bring us again into the bondage of death. So then, not akll the house of God are vessels that have been truly sealed.

When this person asks why God warned the church not to grieve the Holy Spirit, the same reason God warns the church not to be deceived for unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom. It's not saying they'll lose their salvation, it's saying that these things are evidence they are not saved in the first place. e.g.:

1st Corinthians 6:9
  • "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

Can the church be deceived and be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate and  abusers of themselves with mankind? Yes. Can the election be deceived and be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate and  abusers of themselves with mankind so that they not inherit the Kingdom? Absolutely not! God's not telling the church that  fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, and abusers of themselves with mankind will lose their salvation. Not at all, God is saying by virtue of the edict (a tree is known by its fruits) they were never actually saved in the first place. The fact that they are living in these sins means they were never sealed or saved. No matter how many times they profess Christ, His Kingdom or the inheritance. They are a grievance and vexation to the God to whom they profess to be redeemed by. As the Lord said to the churches, Thou has a name that thou liveth, and are Dead!

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2017, 10:37:32 AM »
Thank you, Tony.  Also I am humbled by your explanation knowing that I need to make my calling and election sure.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Dan

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2017, 09:55:50 PM »
It is not the unsaved who grieve the Lord, we grieve him because He loves us.

Tony Warren

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 12:25:40 AM »
>>>
It is not the unsaved who grieve the Lord, we grieve him because He loves us.
<<<

Did you even consider the Scripture I submitted to you (Psalms 78:40) that illustrated that it indeed was the unsaved that grieved Him?  I agree that He certainly loves us (His Election), but as far as the unsaved, or those in unbelief not grieving him (and particularly the unsaved people of His congregation), that idea is bankrupt. It's destitute of factual or Biblical validation. Again, it gets back to the authority of God's word versus whatever we want (or choose) to believe, regardless of what God says. Example B.

Hebews 3:17-19
  • "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
  • And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
  • So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

These were God's people and they weren't saved, and we read that they grieved the Lord wherein they died in the wilderness in unbelief. So clearly, God's word contradicts this position that the unsaved don't grieve the Lord. And yet He takes no joy in their death, even as Christ was sorrowful over His people Jerusalem (Luke 8:52).

Ezekiel 18:23
  • "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

Which is why God warns His people (His church) to grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby they are sealed unto the day of redemption. He's speaking to us collectively. That is to say, if we are truly sealed/secured of the Holy Spirit, we will not grieve the Lord as those unredeemed or those in unbelief do. i.e., if we do grieve him (like the children of God in the wilderness), that is evidence we remain unredeemed, not evidence that we were once redeemed, and then somehow lost that redemption, as if that were possible.

Revelation 14:4
  • "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The concept of God's firstfruits derives from the creation work, namely in Christ that which is first and best (firstfruits) belongs to Him. The reason God says these firstfruits were never defiled and were they truly virgins was because they were ibn God's hand and God preserved them as such by the "sealing of His Holy Spirit" unto this day of redemption. They couldn't lose redemption because it means they were ransomed in full. Not in part, but the full price was paid so that they cannot have debt or sin wherein they could possibly be lost. If your debt for sin is paid in full, there is no sin that could cause it to be "not paid," else the debt for sin wasn't paid in full in the first place.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Mila Ostrovsky

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 05:14:03 AM »
 :nicethread: I have never understood the inclination of some ministers to think that salvation can be lost. Wouldn't that put us right back into a salvation by works religion?

Reformer

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2017, 04:53:06 AM »
:nicethread: I have never understood the inclination of some ministers to think that salvation can be lost. Wouldn't that put us right back into a salvation by works religion?


Yes. And more than that, it places us right back into the position that we were in before Christ went to the cross. Where we are responsible for our own sins and have to pay the wages for them ourselves. As Tony said, if we might be forced to pay the price for any one of our sins, then Christ Christ died in vain and never paid for all of them in the first place.

Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That's what happens if we can fall away, we were always guilty of all and never had that sin paid for. There's no double jeopardy, if He paid for all, then there is no sin. If not, then any sin we commit after we are saved would send us to Hell. That's a fool's salvation plan where no one could be saved because we all commit sin.

Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Clifford Grodin

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Re: Does Grieve Not the Holy Spirit Mean Losing Salvation?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 12:01:54 PM »
Acts 7:51

"Ye destiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

 


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