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Author Topic: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology  (Read 880 times)

Rupert

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Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« on: August 28, 2017, 01:12:22 AM »
I'm not very familiar with Reformed theology, but I think I know what's biblical when I read it. So I would like to get your respected opinions. I was talking to a Christian today who supports Christian Zionism and says that we all must back Israel because they are God's people and they will one day turn to Christ. In the meantime she believes we are to support them and their country fully.

She also believes that the bible clearly teaches of the return of the Jews to Israel and a restoration of the kingdom. My question, if this is Christian Zionism and is it Biblical? A Christian on another forum said that it was heresy, but he was shouted down. I'm a bit confused, so can anyone here help.

Johnny

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 02:33:07 AM »

What is Christian Zionism? :S_Confused:

Reformer

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 04:31:46 AM »
Christian Zionism is a political arm of Christianity that believes that the land that Israel dwells in now was promised to the Jewish people forever, and insists that the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is a miracle that was prophesied, and that following will be a great coming of these people to Christ.

None of this is actually biblical and is mostly the product of the politics of Israel and a few misunderstood scriptures. However, a great many premillennial, evangelical and even some reformed Christians, believe this based on the skimpiest of 'implied" texts.

Bruce

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 06:31:20 AM »

What is Christian Zionism? :S_Confused:


Google defines Chrisdtian Zionism as:

"Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return
of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of
Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy.
"

Rupert

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 01:33:28 AM »
So are we to conclude that there is no hope for Israel beside being a messianic Jew today?

Reformer

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 06:17:00 AM »
So are we to conclude that there is no hope for Israel beside being a messianic Jew today?

I would also encourage you to read the thread "What is the Hope of National Israel?"

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=741.0

Tony Warren

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 08:59:42 AM »
>>>
I was talking to a Christian today who supports Christian Zionism and says that we all must back Israel because they are God's people and they will one day turn to Christ.
<<<

The only people who actually are God's people are people who profess to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who rejects Him, as generally the nation of Israel does, rejects God. This is a little fact that Christian Zionists choose to ignore.

John 15:2223
  • "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
  • He that hateth me hateth my Father also."

This idea by some professing Christians that Jewish people can be offended by and reject Christ for over 2000 years, and yet still be the children of God, is without Biblical validation. It is nothing short of a delusion to think that a people can be the children of God merely by being of the flesh Jewish. God's people are of the Promise/Covenant that is in Christ Jesus, not the flesh.

Romans 9:7-8
  • "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
  • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The Children of the flesh, that is to say, those descended as natural Jews, God plainly declares are not the children of God, but God's children are of the Seed. This is a truth that is blatantly contradicted by what is called Christian Zionism. Nevertheless, they of the Promise, which means all those who are spiritual children through the Seed, which is Christ, are the truly of the promise or covenant of Israel.

Hebrews 9:15-16
  • "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
  • For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."

This is the New Testament, the New covenant with Israel. These of the New Covenant are the children of the promise. Also proven by the reference to the children coming from Isaac, rather than the children of the flesh. Indeed, God has made it abundantly clear that no one is God's people who reject Christ. Have we so soon forgotten that the only true way to know the Father is through Christ? Those misguided souls supporting Christian Zionism are like Christians supporting unbelief. You say they claim that they will one day turn to Christ? But this admission necessarily means that now they reject and are opposed to Christ, and thus God. So according to Scripture, how then are they God's people not under judgment? They were cut off because of unbelief (Romans 11:20), and they are still in that unbelief, so this idea of God;'s covenanted people makes no sense at all. It only makes sense in the tainted minds of those indoctrinated in this false teaching, primarily dispensationalism. Especially since Jesus was not ambiguous about the Jewish people who remain in unbelief.

John 8:42-43
  • "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
  • Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

It is a hard and mournful thing to say, but today many Christians cannot understand Christ's speech either, because they have hardened their heart so as not to hear His word. Those who don't want to hear this unadulterated word and authority of God, can have no excuse for rejecting truth, it's because of their own lack of love for it.


Quote
>>>
 In the meantime she believes we are to support them and their country fully.
<<<

No more than we support any other country. We certainly don't support them simply because they are of of the flesh a Jewish progeny, or of a Jewish bloodline or heritage. The truth is, what this woman (or anyone else) believes is of no consequence to the truth. What we believe must be what the Bible says, not what evangelicals teach. And the Bible says that all Israel are not Israel, and the children of the flesh Israel are not the children of God, and that only the children of Promise are counted as the seed. Thus the Promise/Covvenant/Testament is not to the Jews only, the promise of the inheritance was clearly to Gentiles as well. It didn't pertain to a physical, earthly land, but to a spiritual homeland, the only one that is eternal.

Ephesians 3:5-6
  • "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
  • That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

As the children of God, we support fully the Israel of God, who are the church of the firstborn. For God is no respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34-35
  • "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
  • But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Would that all Christians would perceive that God is no respecter personal heritages, that in all nations and all people that fear Him, they are just as much the children of God as the Jewish apostle Peter. There is neither Jew nor Greek, we are all one in Christ Jesus.


Quote
>>>
She also believes that the bible clearly teaches of the return of the Jews to Israel and a restoration of the kingdom.
<<<

The kingdom is already being restored. This is covered in this thread, "The Restoration Of Israel"

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=90.msg992#msg992


Quote
>>>
My question, if this is Christian Zionism and is it Biblical?
<<<

It's not Christian, it's not Zionism (as defined by Scripture) and it's not Biblical. True Christianity has Christ as a requirement, True Zionism has its inheritance in the Mountain of God's house, which is not a plot of land in the middle east. And Biblical, by definition means receiving God's word as the true authority of those who call themselves the children of God.

What is called today Christian Zionism is at its core and fundamental level, nothing more and nothing less than politics, the same Old Testament Judaic leadership belief system of establishing earthly kingdoms, the loosing of physical captivities, the trust in vain genealogies, the building of brick Temples and the Jewish fables and myths of a prophecy of restored physical lands. These age old fictions, wrapped up in New Testament Christian clothing, have no Real basis in biblical eschatology. Some people have taken what the Jewish people erroneously believed over 2000 years ago when Christ first came, and incorporate most of that into a political doctrine labeled Christian Zionism. The fact is, it was wrong over 2000 years ago when the foundation stone was rejected in favor of these beliefs, and it is still wrong today. These ideas caused them to miss Christ then, how much more now. The reality is, the Messiah has already come, He has already freed the captivity, He has already restored Israel, He has already gathered the lost sheep of the house of Israel into their own land. Christ made good on His promise to deliver Israel and bring peace to Jerusalem. Thus all those Christian Zionists waiting for a different type of restoration and freedom are involved in what Timothy called, Jewish fables (dreams, fictions, myths). Their belief system proving yet once again what the Preacher said about nothing being new:

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
  • "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
  • Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us."

The previous sins of the fathers, the blind clinging to fables and traditions, the previous false carnal restorations, every previous erroneous belief system that went before, has come again. From works doctrines to expecting the Messiah to rule from physical Jerusalem. From alleged promises that never were promises to God being a respecter of persons that He already said he wasn't. It's all nothing new. Mainly because man has not changed. The men who were the Scribes and Pharisees in God's congregation before, are the same men who rule God's congregations today. Even as Christ said, "fill ye up the measure of your fathers." The imaginations of their heart is the same, and their refusal to receive the truth in love or the love of truth is the same. here is nothing new under the sun.

To answer your question succinctly, "No, Christian Zionism is neither Biblical nor Christian," and indeed it is contrary to all that our Lord Jesus Christ has said concerning Israel, its deliverance, who and what it is (and is not) and the one body of the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-14
  • "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
  • That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

The Christian Zionists attempt to build again a wall between God, the Jews and Gentiles. No Christians should ever support such doctrines.


Quote
>>>
A Christian on another forum said that it was heresy, but he was shouted down. I'm a bit confused, so can anyone here help.
<<<

It's not surprising that he was shouted down, we live in a politically correct society that has come up into the church and emasculated it, where in a sense, women rule over it. It would have been surprising to me if he had not been shouted down. It's a wonder he wasn't labeled anti semitic or worse.

As far as Heresy, any speaking evil of Christ's word and Spirit of truth is heresy.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"
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Kenneth White

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 02:59:59 PM »

Another good thread to consider is "Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy"

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=2849.0
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

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Dan

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2017, 09:05:33 PM »

There are all kinds of definitions by the fake media, but Christian Zionism is simply Christian support for the Zionist cause, which is the belief that the Jewish people have a biblical right to their biblical homeland in Israel. We believe that the return of the Jews to Israel is in line with the bible prophecy of restoration and is necessary for the messiah Jesus to return to Earth as its king. It is the conservative Christian view.

David Knoles

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2017, 12:33:26 AM »
Those who oppose the Jews are false witnesses who will die an ugly death.

Tony Warren

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Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2017, 03:40:52 AM »
    >>>
    We believe that the return of the Jews to Israel is in line with the bible prophecy of restoration and is necessary for the messiah Jesus to return to Earth as its king.
    <<<

    While you and yours are waiting for a kingdom of Christ to come to the middle east, me and mine are rejoicing that the Kingdom of Christ that came to the middle east, and it and spread to the entire world. A Kingdom wherein Israel is not only restored but the captivity returned. An Israel wherein a peace that passes understanding has been brought to Jerusalem. An Israel with a promised inheritance that is deeply rooted in the fulfillment of "that" New Covenant with Israel. We don't look for things that Christ already brought to the children the Father. The "Promised" land is not a pile of dirt that forms plains and hills. Abraham looked for this Promised land and He found it (even though He never entered national Israel) because it was never a plot of soil in the middle east, it was a much more precious and eternal land, kingdom with a much more Holy King reigning over it. An inheritance and nation that only the blind, liberated in Christ can see.

    Colossians 1:12-13
    • "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    • Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

    Again, "authority" of Scripture over the self-serving and vain words of men. No need for Christ to come to earth as King because that prophesy has already been satisfied, fulfilled or realized. So while you say you believe the coming of Christ to earth to reign as king was necessary, we say Amen, and He did come, He did reign, He did restore Israel. Indeed, the very term New Testament (or Covenant) is with Israel. The New Covenant realized is not with Russia, China, Rome or Columbia, it is with Israel, meaning it has already transpired. The New Testament is synonymous with New Covenant. Again, they are the same words in divinely authored Scripture. The New Covenant with Israel has been established with us for over 2000 years. The New Covenant/Testament church.


    Quote
    >>>
    It is the conservative Christian view.
    <<<

    I'm sorry, but there is nothing conservative about loose, immoderate, speculative, inconsistent and incautious doctrines. That's the very epitome of liberal. This doctrine conserves nothing of what is written, it doesn't guard against loss, nor keep God's unadulterated word from humanistic interpretations or corruption by false teaching ministers, TV preachers and political pundits. Nor is it Christian, because it isn't in any way in agreement with the teachings of the Kingdom of Christ. It is decidedly unscholarly, primarily Premillennarian/Dispensational, and utterly unbiblical. It's clearly untenable when "honestly" compared with all the relevant Scriptures.

    Luke 1:68-69
    listed]
    • "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    • And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;"

    It's not something that is to be done sometime in the future, it's something Christ did by His death and resurrection.  Israel has been visited to be redeemed, and she has been set free.  You may certainly believe that a return of natural Jews to Israel is the bible prophecy of the restoration, and is necessary for Jesus to reign on earth as king, but the Biblical facts are that such ideology contradicts God's word that He has already come to earth, already sought and found the lost sheep of the house of Israel, already brought peace to Jerusalem, already restored Israel in the New Covenant and already reigns as its king. He's already done all the things that the prophets foretold from freeing or returning the captivity to comforting and bringing peace to Jerusalem. He's already said again and again, the children of the flesh are not the children of the promise, and that He is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but your group continues to deny Christ in declaring Him wrong in this regard. In your blindness, you continue to reject this truth of Him being no respecter of persons, and retort against Him that Jews are indeed Jews outwardly, and the children of Israel are indeed the children of the flesh Israel. Are you not the same as the children of Israel who in the same blindness killed the prophets. Who also Killed Christ for not coming as a king of the earthly kingdom that they had all so blindly anticipated? They wanted the type King and Kingdom you espouse, and because Christ didn't give it to them they turned on Him and had Him killed. Was it their wicked ways in misunderstanding of prophesy, or was it their obstinate heart, or did it matter when Christ brought Judgment upon them all for it?

    Matthew 23:31-32
    • "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    • Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."

    And you do so seemingly without concern for the authority of the word, without conscience and without remorse--as did many of Israel who went before you looking for an earthly reign and kingdom. Indeed, as those who killed both the prophets and Christ because they spoke of the righteousness of a diverse Kingdom that one of this earth. Are you not then still carnal? Are you not then the seed of rather than Isaac? For in Isaac shall the seed be called.

    Romans 9:7-8
    • "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

    God is no respecter of persons, the flesh means nothing concerning being children of God, the Spirit means everything. We are the children of the promise that are counted for the seed (Galatians 4:23,29,31), for we are born by virtue of the promise.


    "nosce te ipsum"
     
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    Tony Warren
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    Tony Warren

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    Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
    « Reply #12 on: September 03, 2017, 03:52:28 AM »
    >>>
    Those who oppose the Jews are false witnesses who will die an ugly death.
    <<<

    Death is always ugly, especially the second death. But yours are words meant to scare little ones not yet weened from the breasts and who fear the darkness, but such words have no effect on the children of the Spirit. The question is not really one of who opposes the Jews, but of who are the Jews "according to the ultimate authority," and what blasphemy is spoken of. Is it blasphemy when some Gentile truthfully witnesses he's a Jew because God said he is, or is it when some Jewish person says he is, when "God" said he is not? You must decide. The real question is, what does Christ say to the messenger of the church concerning this, not to the Jewish synagogue.

    Revelation 3:8-9
    • "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    • Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

    He is talking to the church, and He has set before them an open door. How do we know how to define a Jew in the economy of the Spirit of God that is speaking to the churches? Is it by the words of Dispensationalists who define words carnally, or is by the the divine unadulterated authority of the Holy Spirit through His word. It is God's definitions and designation that are "impossible" to be wrong, not man's. God said it, how is it then not true?

    Romans 2:28-29
    • "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    • But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    If a professing Christian cannot understand these very simple, clear and unmistakable words, then I fear it has little to do with comprehension and everything to do with the overt scales of blindness on his eyes. It is very "literally" impossible for that statement of God's word to be wrong, and thus the blasphemy of those who claim they are Jews and are not, is of those who are not of Christ. It is those rejecting God's declarations of who is and who is not a Jew. Mind you, not my beliefs or yours of what is, but the blasphemy of rejecting the Christ and yet declaring to be of the Messiah. When we call the true word false and the false word true, that denying the Savior. It's the difference between false Christs and the true Christ. A Christ that winks at the denials of Himself by a people, versus the true Christ who calls it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Can one actually call evil good and good evil and not blasphemy? All who reject the Spirit of Christ, and don't believe in the risen Savior, and call themselves Jews, are as that verse declares, liars partaking in blasphemy. A blasphemy many people, including many professing Christians, who don't have a clue about what a Jew is. Nevertheless, God knows who are these blasphemers who call on a Messiah of their own visage and flesh and yet reject the Messiah of the Bible.

    Romans 9:8
    • "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

    "THIS" is the authority of the unadulterated word, not the private interpretations and opinions of Christian Zionists. As it is written, Let God be true and every man a Liar. In other words, who are we going to believe--God or man. Who is blasphemying, the children of the Promise or the children of the flesh? Who is yet carnal and looking for a worldly kingdom versus those who are Spiritual to receivi=e the one spoken of in Scripture. Yes I'll grant you, it's not your typical politically correct answer, just the truth of God's unfiltered word. but it is enough.

    "nosce te ipsum"
     
    Peace,
    Tony Warren
    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

    Apostolic

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    Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
    « Reply #13 on: September 03, 2017, 10:33:06 AM »
      not very subtle are you?  :(

    Rupert

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    Re: Is Christian Zionism a Biblical Theology
    « Reply #14 on: September 03, 2017, 06:52:10 PM »
    Thank you all for your insightful answers to my question.

     


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