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Author Topic: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled  (Read 15697 times)

Dave Taylor

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2004, 09:40:20 PM »
I have no slur for you on a personal level e.l.  All posts of mind are directed at the heresy of Full Preterism; not you as an individual.  I agree that we should be peaceable; but we are also taught in the scriptures how to rebuke and stand firm against false doctrines like Preterism.

If you have taken any personal insult by my postings;  I do apologize. 
However, it is the doctrine that is the aim.  If I have said 'you' in a pejorative way, my intent was the doctrine that you hold and continue to defend and advance.

Telling you that you 'err' because you have embraced and will not abandon Preterism is not an insult to you; it is just a statement of the situation.

Has it ever crossed your mind why Full Preterism as a doctrine, didn't existed until the modern ages?

Was it a special secret that God held away from faithful men throughout history; only to bestow on a handful during the last few scores of years?

Again I ask you sincerely, and plainly;

Since you seem to have no intent on abandoning Full Preterism (based on your continued posts in defense of it);
 
How much longer to you plan to try to advance and proselytize Full Preterism on this forum?
and
Is your goal of doing so a hope to draw away converts to Full Preterism?

This board wasn't founded with Full Preterism in mind; so why do you continue to try to advance it here?


Philly Dawg

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2004, 11:55:43 PM »
Jesus told the disciples the truth, if ...ALL THINGS WRITTEN, WERE FULFILLED, in "the days of vengeance" (Lu.21:22), and THEIR GENERATION did not pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED (Lu.21:32).
Jesus "did not" tell the disciples the truth, if ALL THINGS WRITTEN was not FULFILLED in THEIR GENERATION!
Did Jesus tell the disciples, the truth ?   Yes or No?
Elect Lady,

Elect. It all depends upon how Jesus is using the word generation. He does not lie, you simply do not understand the word correctly. Because the generation he referred to has not yet passed.
  Kellyanne Conway: Sometimes Trump Lies Because
 He Doesn't Know the Truth, Okay?

Robert Powell

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2004, 04:05:01 AM »
Jesus "did not" tell the disciples the truth, if ALL THINGS WRITTEN was not FULFILLED in THEIR GENERATION!
Did Jesus tell the disciples, the truth ?   Yes or No?
Elect Lady,

Elect. It all depends upon how Jesus is using the word generation. He does not lie, you simply do not understand the word correctly. Because the generation he referred to has not yet passed.


That's what a lot of people do not understand. The word generation is used in many different ways, and people don't like to accept that if they have an agenda. I would suggest reading this article on the word generation.


We are a chosen generation, and the same chosen generation Paul spoke of. But we're not all living in the same era. We are all the chosen family of God.

 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Baerchild

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2005, 08:09:45 PM »
 1 Peter 2:

    9  But ye are a chosen GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

   10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Can this generation be anything other than The Elect? Were their names not written in The Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world?

Jim

WrldTvlr

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2005, 04:02:18 PM »
     H/W are the meanings of "generation" in various passages as per my On-Line-Bible

Generation

1. #Ge 2:4 "These are the generations," means the "history."
2. #Ge 5:1 "The book of the generations," means a family register, or history of Adam.
3. #Ge 37:2 "The generations of Jacob" = the history of Jacob and his descendants.
4. #Ge 7:1 "In this generation" = in this age.
5. #Ps 49:19 "The generation of his fathers" = the dwelling of his fathers, i.e., the grave.
6. #Ps 73:15 "The generation of thy children" = the contemporary race.
7. #Isa 53:8 "Who shall declare his generation?" = His manner of life who shall declare? or rather His race, posterity, shall be so numerous that no one shall be able to declare it.
8. In #Mt 1:17 the word means a succession or series of persons from the same stock.
9. #Mt 3:7 "Generation of vipers" = brood of vipers.
10. #Mt 24:34 "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.
11. #1Pe 2:9 "A chosen generation" = a chosen people.
12. The Hebrews seem to have reckoned time by the generation. a.In the time of Abraham a generation was an hundred years, thus: #Ge 15:16 "In the fourth generation" = in four hundred years (comp. #Ge 15:13 Ex 12:40) b. In #De 1:35 2:14 a generation is a period of thirty-eight years.

Thus the answer to your question is an unequivocal, It depends.   ;D

"The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts." --John Jay

Baerchild

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2005, 07:05:50 PM »
 
10. #Mt 24:34 "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.

WrldTvlr,

I'd get rid of your On-Line-Bible if it promotes the Preterist position, if I were you.  The context in no way supports the teaching which claims that the "generation" of Matthew 24:34 means,  "the persons then living contemporary with Christ."

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Jim

WrldTvlr

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2005, 09:34:39 PM »
Quote
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Gill's commentary
Ver. 34. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, &c.] Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

"till all these things were fulfilled; see #Mt 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R.  Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

Mt 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Gill's commentary:
Ver. 28. Verily I say unto you. &c.] This is a strong asseveration, Christ puts his "Amen" to it; declaring it to be a certain truth, which may firmly be believed:

there be some standing here; meaning either his disciples, or some of the audience; for it is clear from #Mr 8:34 that the people were called unto him with his disciples, when he said these words:

which shall not taste of death: that is, shall not die; a phrase frequently used by the Jewish doctors: they say {y},

"All the children of the world, atwmd amej Nymej, "taste the taste of death"."

That is, die:

till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom; which is not to be understood of his personal coming in his kingdom in the last day, when he will judge quick and dead; for it cannot be thought, that any then present should live to that time, but all tasted of death long before, as they have done; for the story of John's being alive, and to live till then, is fabulous, and grounded on a mistake which John himself has rectified at the close of his Gospel: nor of the glorious transfiguration of Christ, the account of which immediately follows; when he was seen by Peter, James, and John, persons now present; for that, at most, was but an emblem and a pledge of his future glory: rather, of the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see, and were concerned in: though it seems chiefly to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those his enemies that would not he should reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of.

Poole's commentary:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. There are several notions men have of that term, this generation,  some by it understanding mankind; others, the generation of Christians; others, the whole generation of the Jews: but doubtless our Saviour mean's the set of men that were at that time in the world: those who were at that time living should not all die until all these things shall be fulfilled, all that he had spoken with reference to the destruction of Jerusalem; and indeed the most of those signs which our Saviour gave, were signs common both to the destruction of Jerusalem and the last judgment, abating only Christ's personal coming in the clouds with power and glory. So that, considering that the destruction of Jerusalem was within less than forty years after our Saviour's speaking these words, so many as lived to the expiration of that number of years must see the far greater part of these things actually fulfilled, as signs of the destruction of Jerusalem; and fulfilling, as signs of the end of the world.

generation G1074,  генеб?, gnea,  ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

Henry commentary on  "This generation" of Mt 24:34:
"There are those now alive that shall see Jerusalem destroyed and the Jewish church brought to an end."


                   


"The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts." --John Jay

Baerchild

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2005, 10:19:11 PM »
WrldTvlr,

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
"till all these things be fulfilled" has not happened.  Let's just start at the beginning of the chapter: 

Matthew 24:

   1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

   2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Since Preterists generally don't understand parables, what about the literal, thousands of stones still standing at the Temple Mount and surrounding area in Jerusalem? 

Preterism is a satanically inspired, pernicious doctrine...avoid it.

Jim

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2005, 07:30:27 AM »
     Thanks for the help.  I wiil read up on Preterism.
"The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts." --John Jay

tysteel

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2005, 12:25:56 PM »
Hi,

I've been reading through many of the back posts of this forum, as well as reading the website articles by Tony Warren and other amillenialists, and I find it very interesting and yet perplexing as to what lengths some will go to allegorizing the Olivet Discourse and it's *literal*  ramifications to those who heard it.   Jesus' words were fulfilled  before that generation passed away, in all aspects, including the Son coming on a cloud of Judgement.    

First, I want to address one rebuttal I've heard to the preterist view about how Jesus' statement, "there shall not be here one stone left upon another", wasn't fulfilled literally by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.     I do not see how one could argue that it wasn't fulfilled literally?   Are you kidding me?  Afterall,  the Temple is no longer there for the Jews to make animal sacrfices, now is it?    

I know that some opponents of the Preterist view want to split hairs by saying that there were a couple of places where a stone was left upon another, but I think those who try to discredit the Lord's prophecy miss the entire point of the Olivet Discourse by arguing over little details.      Much like the prophecies of doom in the OT, the Olivet Discourse is meant to put the fear of God into the Israelites to repent of their sins and turn back to the righteous path.  To accept the Messiah.   As Jesus said in the book of Matthew, he was sent only to the Lost Sheep Of Israel, and in light of that statement, we can only assume that the Olivet Discourse isn't directed at a future church, but to the Israelites themselves.  Now, for those who want to wrangle over the details as to whether or not the Temple destruction 70 AD was literal fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, you should be aware that prophets do often employ hyperbole and even poetry, especially if it helps to  get their point across.   You do know this, right?

Take this example from the book of Acts in Chapter 2, when Peter quotes the Prophet Joel,

"it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..."

Let me ask you a question, was the spirit literally poured upon ALL flesh?  Absolutely not!  Not every single person, not every single flesh of humanity, had the Holy Spirit poured upon them.   This is hyperbole.  Only those who accepted Christ were baptized with the Holy Spirit.  Not ALL flesh.  

But since this prophecy of Joel was not LITERALLY fulfilled, does that negate God's promises?  Not at all.  You must look past the literalism and hyperbole and understand God's purpose.   Look at the whole picture and see what God is saying with spiritual discernment.

Same is true of the Olivet Discourse.    Some here, including Tony Warren, believe that Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24 doesn't pertain to the Temple Destruction since there are a couple of places where *supposedly* it has been reported that in fact one stone was in fact standing on another.   I don't if that is true, but even if that were the case, so what?    If that is your reasoning, then to be consistent you must apply that to the prophecy of Joel, which was quoted by Peter in Acts 2, and thus conclude that it wasn't fulfilled because the spirit was not LITERALLY poured upon ALL flesh.  But of course, the same people who say that Jesus' Olivet Discourse wasn't fulfilled by the Temple destruction because they don't deem the fulfillment *literal* enough, will on the other hand assert that the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled after Pentecost, despite the fact that the Spirit is not literally poured upon ALL flesh.  See the contradictions of those who apply one standard to the Olivet Discourse, but not to other prophecies?

Also, to address what is written later in Matthew 24....

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven and Great Glory.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the 4 winds."

I'd like to point out that in the original greek, the "angels" mentioned is translated from the greek word  "angeloi".   It can also be translated to mean human messengers who spread the gospel, as is true of how the greek word "angeloi" is used in other verses such as in James 2:25.  

When Jesus's said this to the disciples, they most likely understood that Jesus was speaking in the context of the prophet Isaiah regarding how the survivors of the destruction He just described would befall Jerusalem would preach the Lord's name to distant lands that have never heard of His Glory.  To understand what Jesus is seeing here, we must have context.  Here is the mirror verse:

Isaiah 66:15(NIV)


see, the lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury and his rebuke with flames of fire.  For with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgement upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord..

(obviously, coming in a cloud in Matthew 24:30 is a reference to coming in Judgement against Jerusalem and apostate Jews)

"I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations, to Tarshish, to the Libyans, to Tubal, and Greece, and to the distant lands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory"

(in the context of Isaiah,and thus using scripture to help interpet other scripture, what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24: 31 is his messengers preaching the gospel and gathering his elect through that evangelism.   It doesn't seem to allude to the end of the world, but the end of the Old Covenant (destruction of the temple) and consumnation of the New Covenant.

As the Apostle Paul mentioned at times in his Epistles, Judaizers and those zealous for the old covenant law were the biggest obstacles to the preaching of the Gospel.    They opposed the Christians every chance they go, but with the destruction and desolation  of Jerusalem and Temple worship, this opened a huge window of opportunity for the Gospel to spread further.   As Paul said to the Thessalonians in regards to the Judaizers who opposed the Christians and persecuted them(2 Thessalonians 1:6-....), "He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you, and give relief to you who are troubled.....they will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his Holy peope."   Obviously, this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was left desolate as the Judaizers were judged by God , as Jesus prophesied would come upon "this generation"





Dave Taylor

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2005, 02:39:39 PM »
Quote
First, I want to address one rebuttal I've heard to the preterist view about how Jesus' statement, "there shall not be here one stone left upon another", wasn't fulfilled literally by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.     I do not see how one could argue that it wasn't fulfilled literally?

The Bible, not preteristic speculations, provide when the phrase, 'there shall not be here one stone left upon another'.

John 2:19-21
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."

Matthew 27:40 And saying, "Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. "


This occurred at Calvary circa 33 AD; not some 37 years after Calvary.

Preterism misses the most importany event of human history mentioned above in Scripture; and in its place, glamorizes and places undue focus on a non-event that occured 37 years afterward.

Dave Taylor

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2005, 02:55:19 PM »
Quote
Obviously, this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was left desolate as the Judaizers were judged by God , as Jesus prophesied would come upon "this generation"

Again, Jerusalem was left desolate and judged by God with Christ's death at Calvary...not a non-event that occurred 37 years later.

Preterism misses the time of their visitation(circa 0-33AD), in favor of a later time (circa 70 AD) of no significance.

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  This he said, signifying what death he should die."


Luke 13:32 "And Jesus said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.  Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate"

Mark 11:11 "And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.  And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.  And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.  And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.  And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.  And when even was come, he went out of the city.  And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."

tysteel

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2005, 06:44:14 PM »
Quote
Obviously, this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was left desolate as the Judaizers were judged by God , as Jesus prophesied would come upon "this generation"

Again, Jerusalem was left desolate and judged by God with Christ's death at Calvary...not a non-event that occurred 37 years later.

I find the attitude that a war that cost over a million Jewish lives and the destruction of the Temple was not a judgement of God very strange.   The Romans sacked and scorched Jerusalem and the Jews were again uprooted and scattered to the 4 winds.   Similar circumstances had befallen the Jewish people in their history
, as chronicled throughout the OT, all of which had been prophesied as the judgement of God because of the
the iniquity and idolatary of the Israelites.   So why should this be any different?    The war in question is certainly not a "non-event" and it would be facetious to say  that it wasn't the judgement of God. 

You say that Jerusalem was left desolate and judged by God with Christ's death,
 but you forget that Jesus pleaded, "forgive them, for they no not what they do".  This is why God didn't destory them right then and there, in my opinion. 

Judgement didn't fall on the Jews till 40 years later.  God gave the Jews 40 years to repent and turn to Christ through the Apostles.   God would forgive the Jews, as Jesus asked on the cross, but they didn't want forgiveness and wouldn't turn to Christ.   Because of their immorality, they were destroyed. 
 

tysteel

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2005, 07:01:05 PM »
Also, Dave, if we were to take your thesis as being correct that Matthew 24 is purely futurist, then what significance would the following passages have for us:

"but pray that your flight may not be in the Winter or the Sabbath day."

To apply this to the future and to the Christian church, as opposed to the audience to whom Jesus spoke,  would be anti-contextual.      It would fit more with the time of Jesus as Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath, and flight from the city on that day would be difficult in such a case.  (Neh 13:19, 22)  But if you insist that this verse is futurist, then what does it mean to us?

Also, winter conditions were much more harsh on these primitive people than on our modern civilization.  We have vehicles with heating; they had camels.  Flight during winter would present a real dilemma for these people. 

Dave Taylor

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2005, 09:08:12 PM »
Quote
Also, Dave, if we were to take your thesis as being correct that Matthew 24 is purely futurist

"My Thesis" on Matthew 24 being purely futurist?

Where?

Where is "My Thesis" about Matthew 24?  I made no reference to Matthew 24 in either of my posts to you....nor did I mention anything purely futurist.

 


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