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Author Topic: Premillennialism / Literalism?  (Read 25174 times)

Doug Johnson

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2003, 05:08:01 PM »
Bradley,

 Thank You. Finally someone has been honest enough with themselves and answered the question. Whether I agree or not, at least you stand out as one with integrity because you didn't give a speech about me, or try to intimidate others like Glenda, but simply addressed the question. AS ARE THE RULES here. For that I thank you.

Reformer

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2003, 07:46:07 PM »
Nice work Bradley. Patience is a virtue. Regarding this question, also we can look at the prophecy of the Lord's coming and bringing Peace. That is what is meant by beating their swords into plowshares. No more war with God, we are now husbandmen.

 Isa 40:1  Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
 3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Just like it's not a literal highway in the desert, it's not literally beating swords into plowshares, but a peace that passes understanding. The true church is the nation that shall not lift up sword against nation, and that shall not learn war any more. Because we have peace with God.

We do need to be patient and answer these tough questions.

Reformer

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2003, 08:00:39 PM »
Also,

 Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Bryan

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2003, 10:02:30 PM »
Glenda,

You said:

I can-not understand escatology, I do not know what I believe , as far as escatological views.

I have not yet responded to any posts because I just now figured out how to use this new board.  I find it more cumbersome to use, but I'm sure that is because I am not used to it.

Anyway, I think your question has been answered thoroughly already.  The key to understanding eschatology is the same as understanding all of Scripture.  The Holy Spirit must be our teacher.  Eschatology is not a subset of Scripture that can be treated as non-essential.  We might study it that way in our systematic theologies, but the Bible is one unified body of wisdom that comes from God.  Its themes are intertwined.  The understanding of one doctrine affects what we understand about another.  That is why we must not treat one area of theology as less important than others and beyond our ability to understand.  

I can't stress enough the quality of the articles on this website both by Tony and the other authors.  Read them carefully.  When you come across difficult concepts, don't hesitate to post questions on this forum.  That is how we grow in our knowledge of the Bible.  And don't worry about being slammed by other posters.  Remember whose servant you are and who it is you are trying to please.  Concern yourself with what He thinks of you and not what others may say.  And may God bless you and give you all wisdom to understand the great truths of His Word!

Robert Powell

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2003, 10:37:21 PM »
Hey Bryan!!!!  Where ya Been?

 We miss your insightful points of view on scripture. Hope ya get use to this soon and are not abandoning us.

 As far as eschatology, I agree with you. It's no different than understanding other parts of scripture. Except when it gets into the complicated symbolisms like horns, kingdoms,  mountains and time frames. Then it can be quite complicated. But Welcome back!

George

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2003, 08:21:38 PM »
How do amillennialists explain Satan being bound and in the bottomless pit right now?

We are told that he prowls around like a roaring lion and also are given armor and instructions as how to deal with him.
              Thank you.

Tony Warren

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2003, 12:39:17 PM »
>>>
How do amillennialists explain Satan being bound and in the bottomless pit right now?

We are told that he prowls around like a roaring lion and also are given armor and instructions as how to deal with him.
              Thank you.
<<<

Deja vu!

We explain Satan being bound in the bottomless pit the same way God explains it. In other words, though Satan was destroyed [katargeo] that he is brought down to idleness or uselessness by the death of Christ that the nations (or Gentiles) can be saved, he is clearly in another sense "not destroyed" for the world and still active in the world.

Hebrews 2:14-15
  • "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
  • And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Shall we ask God how He says Satan is destroyed, and yet is still active in the world? Yes we should, and the answer is found by comparing Scripture with Scripture, searching the Bible in the Spirit of obedience. Then we come to understand that Satan was bound and Spiritually chained and made idle for the sake of the elect of the nations, but not for the world. He cannot harm the elect, but he goes about seeking whom he may devour of the world.

We explain it the same way God explains that iniquity was restrained or "held down" [katecho] that it could not overcome the church, and yet God's word says it was still working, even then in the world. As indeed Paul declared unambiguously in 2nd Thessalonians.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-7
  • "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
  • For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Iniquity was restrained by the victory Christ accomplished in overcoming Satan at the cross, and yetthe Apostle Paul under inspiration of God clearly says that Christ was even then letteth (restrained) it, and He would continue to restrain it until He be taken out of the way (midst). So it's not really such a great mystery. Satan was restrained for the sake of the nations, that they not be deceived while Christ built His church (Revelation 20).

We explain it the same way God explains how the Beast was, and is not, and yet is (Rev. 17:8 ). None of these things are contradictions! ..they must be Biblically and Spiritually discerned. That is to say, we explain it Biblically by what God has written in His holy word. By searching the scriptures to know why God had bound Satan in the first place, and why He will loose him when the reason for his binding has been accomplished.
i.e., when the testimony of the church is completed.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

George

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2003, 09:09:33 AM »
>>>Deja vu

That's because neither you or anyone else answers our concerns about discarding the premil view. But is Satan bound? Or is God bound? Who is running the world? Who should be running the world?

If Satan is bound then why aren't the righteous ruling in Christ's kingdom? Look at the church for the last 2000 years? Is Jesus in charge? The church has been killing and doing all manner of evil. And if Satan, the king of His kingdom is bound then why isn't the Kingdom of God the prevailing influence in how mankind runs their lives?

The answer is, Satan is in control of all aspects of human life including all religion. Satan's kingdom is the kingdom of this world because God's kingdom's citizens forgot that their purpose is as Jesus'

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil".

If the 1.7 billion Christians had destroyed the works of the devil then the devil would have no place in the world. This has been evident in the past 2000 years by such things as Christians killing Jews and killing each other, and killing anyone who got in their way. There are over twenty thousand groups that all believe something different about the One Jesus and are willing to defraud, murder, persecute, lie about, and segragate anyone who does not belive the truth.

Satan is alive and well and in full control and if you think different then he got right where he wants you.

This is a good start to know that the life of Jesus can destroy the works of the devil. Jesus said; John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth  and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

Meaning, if you walk as Jesus walked then you will be in the way that leads to heaven and you will have the truth that will cause you to change your life and that will destroy the works of the devil in your life, so that you can have the life of Jesus in you that will delight to do the personel revealed will of God for you that have destroyed the works of the devil and are now living the life of Jesus.. John 14:30  "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me".

If Christ is in us then then the prince of this world can not be. If Christ is in us then we should be in trouble with the devil and every one he is in  2 Timothy 3:12-13  "Yea and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived".

Now each individual has to take on the Life of Jesus and force out of themselves the kingdom of satan and replace it with the kingdom of God Matthew 12:28-29  "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods  except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house".

Ro 16:20  "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen"

Chicago Bear

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2003, 01:08:50 PM »
Quote
Satan is alive and well and in full control and if you think different then he got right where he wants you.

Well what do you do with the scriptures which say that God is in control? Don't you believe that God is sovereign?
Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Bradley

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2003, 02:22:14 PM »
George,

You are missing out understanding the spiritual side of salvation.  Before we are saved, we are under the rulership of Satan.  We are the servant to sin, and our Father is the devil.  When we are saved, we are set free from this bondage and delivered from our captivity to Satan.  We are translated into the kingdom of God.  It is not an earthly kingdom, but a spiritual kindgom.

Before we are saved, we are the servants to sin:
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Result of sin = spiritual death:
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Captivity of the unbeliever and the rulership of satan:
2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Ephesians 2:1-2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Freedom from sin found in Christ:
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Isaiah 42:6-8
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Christ has led captivity captive through his work on the cross:
Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them.]

Hebrews 2:14-15
14   Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15   And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

We are translated from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of Christ
Colossians 1:12-14
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Salvation brings fruit unto righteousness and eternal life
Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 6:11-14
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The kingdom is within us:
Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Once you understand what you have been saved from, you can begin to understand the kingdom of God.  The bondage of sin is spiritually understood.  The captivity of Satan is spiritually understood.  The kingdom of God is spiritually understood as well.  Christ has the victory now.  His kingdom is today.  His people have been delivered from the bondage of Satan and translated into his kingdom.

Bradley

 

beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2003, 11:36:02 PM »
Quote
Once you understand what you have been saved from, you can begin to understand the kingdom of God.  The bondage of sin is spiritually understood.  The captivity of Satan is spiritually understood.  The kingdom of God is spiritually understood as well.  Christ has the victory now.  His kingdom is today.  His people have been delivered from the bondage of Satan and translated into his kingdom.

Amen Bradley...This is a personal view of the kingdom that each believer enters into upon salvation...but there is also a promise of something more.

Jer:31:34: And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

In other words when satan is really bound, there shall be no more war and the nations shall no longer be at odds with one another.

Isa:2:4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic:4:3: And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Bradley while I can see what you are saying on an individual level...I think George may be trying to hit on something bigger that has not yet been seen....yet still a very promise from God. Praise God!

Blade

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2003, 05:02:27 AM »
Quote
In other words when satan is really bound, there shall be no more war and the nations shall no longer be at odds with one another.

What do you mean "if" Satan was really bound? He's either been bound or he hasn't been bound. You can't have it both ways. And all the evidence of scripture from the standpoint of careful examination, is that he has. The premil eschatology just cannot humbly accept the scriptures that make this known.

 Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
 27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2003, 09:14:07 AM »
Blade satan is bound in the hearts of born again believers but not bound in the world.

I suppose really is not the word I should use but totally

We have God's promise that this total binding will come in these verses.

Isa:2:4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic:4:3: And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



I can not believe it is speaking of a new heaven and earth because why would people be rebuked there?

I can't believe these verses are speaking of a time in heaven because there will be no need of rebuke in heaven. This is speaking of a time on earth when satan is totally bound.


Joh:18:36: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.





Tony Warren

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2003, 09:22:04 AM »
>>>
Deja vu

That's because neither you nor anyone else answers our concerns about discarding the premil view. But is Satan bound?
<<<

I believe that your understanding of Revelation chapter 20 is clouded by what you have been taught.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/rev20.html

This witness of Matthew 12 to Revelation Chapter 20 helps show the truth of this often-misunderstood chapter of the Bible. There Christ explains the binding of Satan, who did it and why.

Matthew 12:29
  • "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

The pertinent questions here are:

#1. who the Strong man is
#2. who is He who seeks to spoil his house
#3. What is this House, and
#4. what are the possessions of this strong man that he wanted to spoil (seize or take by conquest)

Understanding this you will comprehend why God says that FIRST he had to bind him. If you come to understand that parable, you'll answer your own question. Or rather, God will answer it for you.


Quote
>>>
Or is God bound?
<<<

The answer to that is so obvious as to make it a ridiculous question for any Christian.

Ephesians 1:20-22
  • "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
  • Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
  • And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,"

God is sovereign and free to do whatever He chooses. All is in His divine providence and He has all dominion. If we receive the word of God "as truth" then there is no question of that. He bound Satan so that He could set the nations free from the bondage of sin that held them captive and in deception. It is Scripture fulfilled, not Scripture to be fulfilled.


Quote
>>>
Who is running the world?
<<<

God is running the world. He is supreme ruler, the King in reigning, the sovereign over all things. He decides who lives and who dies, who is born with a disadvantage, and who is born whole, who is drawn to Christ to be saved, and who is not. He is King of Kings and His kingdom is not of this world, so that not a hair of anyone's head perishes without His say so.


Quote
>>>
Who should be running the world?
<<<

If God is creator and King, and ruling the world, then God "should be" ruling the world. But He has allowed Satan to be ruler of the unsaved of this world, because of the sin of the fall.


Quote
>>>
If Satan is bound then why aren't the righteous ruling in Christ's kingdom?
<<<

They are. Who said that they were not? When we were moved into or translated into the Kingdom of our Christ, we were made righteous, and we were given rule as kings and priests unto our God. We are given this reign (rule) through Jesus Christ our Lord. To deny this is to deny the scriptures that plainly say so..

Romans 5:19
  • "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners  so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Revelation 1:5-6
  • "..Unto him that loved us  and washed us from our sins in his own blood
  • And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Ephesians 2:5-6
  • "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
  • And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

What is our authority of what has taken place? Is it man or God? The point you are missing is that Christ has already bound Satan in order to deliver us from his power of darkness, and to established His Kingdom, and has given us prosperity, and made us righteous so that that we sit in heavenly places and rule with Him. While you are looking for a carnal or leshly and earthly reign, Christ's church is already reigning in Christ's Kingdom, and has already been delivered from Satan. Indeed, the reason he was bound was for their sakes.

Colossians 1:13
  • "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

This wasn't a "pretend" Kingdom of Christ, it's His actual Kingdom. Satan is bound and has no more power over us, as we are Kings and priests who have been translated into Christ's Kingdom. These things are all a given if we receive scripture as true and "authoritative."


Quote
>>>
Look at the church for the last 2000 years? Is Jesus in charge?
<<<

Yes, Christ Jesus is in charge of the church. This is made evident by God's exposition that He is the "head" or the authority of the church, and the reason that Christians are obedient to His word is "because" His people understand that "He is in charge." Just because some "professed" Christians disobey God doesn't mean that God is not in charge of the church anymore than Judas betraying Him meant that.

It is precisely because Jesus is in Charge that the church shall always prevail.

Matthew 16:18
  • "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Now that's what you call "authority!" The church has gone forth over the last two thousand years under the authority of the rider on the white Horse. He has been knocking down strongholds and defeating Satan's defenses, breaking down the gates of hell by building God's church. We stand with Him a "spiritual" army, and our weapons of warfare is the word of God.

Ephesians 6:12-17
  • "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
  • Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
  • And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
  • Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
  • And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

Is Jesus in charge of this army? As the master builder of the church, and the power itself, You Bet He Is!


Quote
>>>
The church has been killing and doing all manner of evil. And if Satan, the king of His kingdom is bound then why isn't the Kingdom of God the prevailing influence in how mankind runs their lives?
<<<

The Kingdom of God was never established to make all the whole world righteous, that is the error of Premillennialism and also to a degree of Postmillennialism. The Kingdom of God is in fact the prevailing influence in how the church runs their lives. It never was, and never will be the prevailing influence of how the "world" runs their lives. They are two separate and "distinct" Kingdoms, which are adversarial to one another. Satan was not bound for the world's sake, Satan was bound for the elect of the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. For the world, Satan still goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. For the true believers, he has no more power over us. His power over us has been broken. Christ has wounded the head of this Beast for us. Not for the world.

John 17:9
  • "I pray for them: I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

As for the "visible" church over the years killing and doing all manner of evil, this has always been the case, and always will be as long as we are on this sin cursed earth. There is the corporate or external Covenant church, and then there is the true Covenanted church. Just as God said about Israel, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel," meaning, there was a corporate Israel, and a true Israel of God. And 'according to this verse' only one was the "true" Israel in God's definition. Likewise, some people of the external church could have wantonly killed, but that didn't mean they were the true church anymore than all Israel was Israel. Nor did it mean that Satan was not bound. It means that Satan was not bound "for them," because it is unlikely they were God's elect.

Luke 6:44
  • "For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes."

Thorns are they who choke and hamper the fruit, not that cultivate it.


Quote
>>>
The answer is, Satan is in control of all aspects of human life including all religion.
<<<

Careful, this bridges on blasphemy. Satan does not control the "true" Christian religion, nor can he eve. For the saints by the death and resurrection of Christ have been given rule over that old serpent Satan, where they can take him up without harm (Luke 10:19; Mark 16:18). He has been bound, destroyed and made useless against us and has no more power to subjugate us. He was bound from deceiving and preventing the church from being built through the nations, as we have been delivered from is "power" of darkness. Read the word of God again on breaking the horn or power of Satan.

Hebrews 2:14
  • "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
  • And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

That is the strong one in the parable Jesus taught, and that explains how he must be bound first before his house could be plundered where the peole are no longer all their lives subject to bondage. Before Christ prevailed over Satan, that was the case. Are you now going to argue with God and ask him the question, "How Can He say Satan is destroyed when he's still prince of this world?" ...I wouldn't. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity! That Greek word translated "destroy" literally means to bring down to idleness. To make inactive. Shall we call God wrong in accomplishing this, or has Satan truly "by the death" and resurrection of Christ been made destroyed or as useless against Christians as God's word says? That verse above is what the parable spoke of. Christ spoiled (seized by conquest) the property of the evil prince of this world (the Devil) by his death. He delivered us who all our lifetime were subject to bondage in his house of pain. If you don't believe these things  then you might as well just rip all these pages from the scriptures.


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If the 1.7 billion Christians had destroyed the works of the devil then the devil would have no place in the world.
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God destroyed the works of the Devil. And there is no "if" about it. There is only "I will receive what God's word actually says," or else "I will reject what God's word actually says." It is either God's word is my authority for what is true, or God's word is not my authority for what is true. There is no "if" God said it. God unambiguously said it, and the church has been given to witness with Power and are tearing down strongholds and destroying works of the devil trough the testimony of Christ. As the Apostles said when they realized the serpents and scorpions were subject to them by Christ's word. There is no "if" God destroyed Satan that they rule, there is only, He Did! Again:

Hebrews 2:14
  • "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
  • And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Where is the, if? Christ destroyed the works of the devil for Christians, but obviously not for the world, just as He said. It's the reason He said He didn't pray for the world, but only for those given Him out of the world.


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This has been evident in the past 2000 years by such things as Christians killing Jews and killing each other, and killing anyone who got in their way.
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Whether or not there have been wicked people in the world has nothing to do with Satan's power being bound. Just because someone professes to be a Christian means nothing. Some of the most wicked individuals alive call themselves Christian, but what does that have to do with the price of bananas? Satan is the father of lies, while God is our father and Christ the personification of truth.

God knows who are the righteous that are kings and Priests unto him. That's all that matters.

Revelation 3:1
  • "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God  and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead."

God knows the pretenders from the rulers. This distinction doesn't effect anything.


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There are over twenty thousand groups that all believe something different about the One Jesus and are willing to defraud, murder, persecute, lie about, and segregate anyone who does not believe the truth.
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..Whose truth? Their truth? If they actually had "His Truth" they would be risen with Him, born from above, having a new heart, a new creation of God whom the Spirit works within to will and to do for His purposes! Our God, the "true" God, is not an idle, do nothing, stand on the sidelines, God. He's not Our Spirit to do and believe as we will, but to do as He wills.

Hebrews 13:21
  • "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
1st Corinthians 15:10
  • ""But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I  but the grace of God which was with me."
Philippians 2:13
  • ""For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

His purpose is not to bind Satan in order to loose everyone in the entire world from bondage, but to save "His People" from their sins. To loose His people from bondage. It isfor His peiople to do His will, and for His purposes, not for my own or your own purposes.


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Satan is alive and well..
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The proverbial "Straw Man" argument. No one said Satan was not alive and well. In fact we fully testify that He goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. He was not bound for the world's sake (as many misguided Dispensationalists think he will be), He was bound for the church's sake, which Christ came to be the master builder of. And when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, the church is complete and Satan will be loosed for a short season that judgment take place in the corporate church. The very one you acknowledge has been unfaithful. As it has always been. Judgment must begin at the house of God.

Ezekiel 9:4-6
  • "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
  • And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
  • Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

Judgment "MUST" begin at the house of God!


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..and in full control and if you think different then he got right where he wants you.
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..but the relevant question is, full control of who? Christians? ..GOD FORBID! A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand! God said that we have been translated from the power of Satan into the Kingdom of Christ. Do you deny that? That very same kingdom which you "claim" is not yet because Christ didn't establish it yet. So who should we believe. God or man? Who is the head or authority of the church, The Pope, Hal Lindsey, Man or God? Who is our ultimate authority? My Bible says let God be true, and every man a liar! -Romans 3:4

If you haven't been delivered from Satan's power of darkness as yet, then it is necessary for you to make supplication to God for it. But as for me and my house, we BELIEVE God, and therefore know that we have been delivered by Christ's death, whereby He bound and effectively destroyed Satan for us, and has seized his goods by this conquest setting us free from his house of bondage. Believing God's word above all, I know it is authoritative, so that His people indeed has been translated into Christ's kingdom.

So either Christ has already made us righteous, destroyed Satan, and established His Kingdom wherein we are translated, or else God is lying to us. One or the other. So while many proclaim Satan is in control of us  God says no, we have been moved away from the power of Satan to the power of God. For this cause He came to earth.

Acts 26:18
  • "To open their eyes  and to turn them from darkness to light  and from the power of Satan unto God that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

So obviously Satan is not in control of everything or everyone. He obviously no longer has power over the true Christian. This prophecy is what Christ came to fulfill, and He did as Matthew illustrated. He Bound Satan for us and set the prisoners free (us) who sat in darkness. Thus we are no longer under his power, but the power of God.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2003, 10:15:48 AM »
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...but there is also a promise of something more.

Jer:31:34: And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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Premillennarians are well known for taking Scriptures that God's word testifies are fulfilled, and treating them as if they are yet to be fulfilled. This is yet another example of that, as this promise was fulfilled in Christ's first advent. Indeed Hebrews has a commentary on Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant with Israel, and in chapters 8 and 9 reveals plainly that this wa fulfilled in the New Covenant congregation established in Christ. Including the verse 34 that you quoted. It is fulfilled by Christ and is not a future event as often surmised in that eschatology. e.g.:

Hebrews 8:11-13
  • "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
  • For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
  • In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Clearly the apostle under inspiration of God is teaching this is fulfilled in Christ establishig the New Covenant church. We do not need the prophets showing miracles to confirm they are God'sd messengers as in days of old, we have the "completed" Scripture, and the anointing of the Holy Spirit of Christ as the teacher. That Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the comforter who teaches us all things.

Hebrews 1:1-2
  • "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
  • Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
John 6:44-45
  • "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  • It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
Isaiah 54:13
  • "And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children."

As indeed is also illustrated and confirmed fulfilled in passages like 1st John.

1st John 2:27
  • "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

So clearly God's word teaches us that Jeremiah chapter 31 was fulfilled in Christ's first advent when He truly did forgive them their iniquity and remembered the sin of Israel no more. He came to redeem His people Israel, and He did, whether Premillennialists want to believe that or not.


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In other words when Satan is really bound, there shall be no more war and the nations shall no longer be at odds with one another.
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Why do so many look for earthly fulfillment, when the answers to these prophecies are right before us in the fulfillment in Christ's first advent, death, and resurrection? No more war? That's already done for Christ's people! Christ has brought peace beyond the understanding of the carnal or flesh bound sinful man.

Isaiah 40:1
  • "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
  • Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

So again I ask, why are people continuing to look for the fulfillment of passes that God reveals are already fulfilled? There "in fact" is no more war, and the nations are no longer at odds. Gentiles have been brought into the New Covenant of Israel and they have made peace in Christ Jesus. They are now fellow servants, fellow citizens and fellow heirs of God's promises to Israel. These are not things I say, but things the word of God says unambiguously.

Ephesians 2:11-17
  • "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
  • That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
  • Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
  • And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
  • And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."

Could it get any plainer? And yet Premillennarians contimnue to deny these truths and prophesies were fulfilled. You say "when Satan is really bound," but I say Satan was really bound already for the nations or Gentiles, so that this could all happen. He was bound so that the nations would not be deceived (Revelation 20) and they would now become a part of the peace and hope of Israel of God. Strangers, Nations once alien and bitter enemies of Israel are now at peace with God and have now been made one with her. There is no unsolvable mystery in the Peace of the nations, nor of the reason that Satan was bound so that they could not be deceived until the fullness of them (nations or gentiles) come into the Covenant with Israel. i.e., the nations which were once at odds with the nation of Israel, are now at peace in Christ Jesus.


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Isa:2:4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
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Isaiah 2:4-5
  • "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
  • O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD."

Christ "does" judge right now among the nations or Gentiles, and He has rebuked many people as He told the New Testament church (Revelation 3:19), and we have already beaten our swords into plowshares. In other words, where once we were adversaries of God (at war with Him), we have put away those weapons of war and instead become workers with a plowshare or hoe. We become Christ's husbandmen working in the fields to cultivate the gospel of Christ. Our warfare is accomplished or completed, and we are now at peace with God and are servants working in his vineyard. We are that nation that shall not lift up sword against the Holy anymore and shall not learn war against God any more. This is why Christ is called the Prince (or ruler) of Peace, and it is written that He came to bring Peace. ..and He did. Where once we were at war with the Israel of God, now we are at one with Him. Now we are at peace, and joined with Israel as one body as we just read.

1st Peter 2:9
  • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:"

We are the house of Jacob who has been called, so "come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD." These are not things yet to occur, but things that have been fulfilled in the body of Christ.


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Bradley while I can see what you are saying on an individual level...I think George may be trying to hit on something bigger that has not yet been seen....yet still a very promise from God.
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George may be trying to hit on something bigger, however, it "has" been seen. The promise was to the Seed, which is Christ, and the fulfillment is in Christ. Those who look toward earthly lands, grandeur, accomplishments, visions, fables, dreams, plans, or nations, are bound to be found wanting. For the Kingdom of God is spiritual, not carnal, and we wrestle against spiritual principalities, against spiritual powers, against spiritual rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The doctrines of Premillennialism or Dispensationalism do not hit upon anything except worldly (carnal) thinking, which is a part of us all. National Israel was the same way, leading to her fall. But careful study, the Holy Spirit, prayer, supplication and the rod of correction (which is ultimately the word of God), will drive it far from us.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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