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Author Topic: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God  (Read 9305 times)

Philly Dawg

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2011, 06:01:43 PM »

The Christian already has a job, and it is  to take the gospel to the world. Their job is not to be the social engineers of the world. Someone should tell President Obama that also with his meddling in places like Libya (Philly Dawg -- Equal condemnation for Democrats).


   :)  OK, I was going to get around to mentioning that. I agree with you! As you know, I hate "Nation Building," no matter what party does it. We are not the Police force of the world.

Now to stay on topic  :P

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I come from a conservative premillenial dispensationalist background and for some years have been very pro Israel.  I am still pro Israel, but I can no longer ignore the plight of innocent Palestinians

There are no innocent Palestinians, nor innocent Israelites. They are both people who are sinners, no one to be regarded above the other. Conservative premillenial dispensationalists don't understand that.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

One body, one children of God
 
  Kellyanne Conway: Sometimes Trump Lies Because
 He Doesn't Know the Truth, Okay?

Melanie

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2014, 10:52:09 AM »
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One of the problems with the view, among others, is the continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel.

 If Israel has been condemned to extinction,

The fact that Israel continues to exist is proof of what? Because Israel exists as a nation that proves they are God's people? That isn't logical.



I've heard this many times myself and have always been puzzled by it. Especially since no one said that the nation had been condemned to extinction or that Israel would no longer exist. This is yet another straw man. They keep arguing that because Israel became a nation again in 1948,  that's proof they are God's people. I know that proof these days is not what it use to be, but that is ridiculous. The bible teaches that the nation would no longer be representative of the kingdom because it was taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Mt 21:43).  It said nothing about the nation becoming extinct. That is a straw man defense of Premillennialism and proof of nothing.

 Matthew 23:37-38
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate".

Clearly the house Christ was talking about was not a physical house, but a spiritual house that is swept and garnished (Mt 12:24). A house that has been desolate ever since, and that did not cease to be desolate in 1948. Therefore, their understanding of prophecy is defective.


Melanie

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2014, 10:56:29 AM »
Israel is always Israel. How can you say Israel is not Israel? Didn't Israel have Titus destroy it in ad 70? Was that spiritual israel? No, it was the nation israel.

How can we say Israel is not Israel? Are you kidding?

 Romans 9:6
 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
 Romans 2:28
 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"

God said it, not us. Why do you not listen to what God says?


Melanie

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2016, 09:06:39 AM »
Some people choose to spiritualize everything from the poor to Israel, and some take the word seriously.

Just a final note. Christ chose to spiritualize the Poor, the Temple, Bread, Water, the Dead, Doctors, Israel, Vineyards, Stars, Candlesticks, and so on and so forth. Was Christ not taking the word seriously? Isn't it time you started taking the word seriously by accepting Christ's spiritualizing of all these things?

"And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:33-34"

The things pertaining to his kingdom Christ spoke to them in allegories spiritualizing the physical things to put forth a spiritual truth. How can you not see that? He often expounded or explained these to his disciples at length so they would understand the spiritual meaning of the parables. There is no state of Israel vs. the Israel of God, there is only the Israel of God who has a covenant with him. All the rest are not Jews according to God's own words.

Dana Pescator

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2016, 08:09:55 PM »
I have never been able to understand how so many Christians cannot seem to recognize the plain scriptures where God declares who are his children, who are his covenant people and who are Jews in his eyes. Mainly Premillennialists, but also some of the Reformed faith and quite a few evangelicals have a serious problem understanding God's one Christ, one people doctrine.

Colssians 3:11
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."


Reformer

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2016, 09:05:32 AM »
Actually it may be the state of Israel versus the Israel of God because by definition it is a false Israel, is it not? Are not all these churches attempting to teach God's people that the political nation of Israel is still God's people, still looking forward to a Messiah? However God says that he has taken the kingdom away from them.  I know that's not the politically correct thing to say, especially now in our day, but isn't that true?

They are ether God's people by heritage or they are not. There's no two ways about it.


JohnDunningUK

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »
It's been ages since I've been online here, but just happened to drop in and couldn't resist a comment here.  :laugh:

I have been arguing against dispensationalism for a few years now, and still find it difficult how certain people, many who seem otherwise orthodox doctrinally, utterly refuse to accept the blatant clarity of Scripture on this subject. For instance, just read this text in it's plain state, and try to interpret it any other way at all, other than there is only One Seed who is the true heir to the promise, and alone those who are found in Him (regardless of ethnicity), are Abraham's seed and co-heirs to the promise.

19  What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20  Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21  Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22  But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24  Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26  For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:19-29 (NKJV)


How can you get any clearer than that?!  ??? :Say_what:

Yet I know that any good dispensationalist worth their salt will step in here and say something along the lines that it is "not the same promise" being spoken of etc.. Or that the land promises made to Israel are yet to be fulfilled, even though the very guy who led them into the promised land stated categorically on his death bed that was not the case!

14  "Behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth. And you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one thing has failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spoke concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one word of them has failed.
15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all the good things have come upon you which the LORD your God promised you, so the LORD will bring upon you all harmful things, until He has destroyed you from this good land which the LORD your God has given you.
16  When you have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed down to them, then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and you shall perish quickly from the good land which He has given you."
Joshua 23:14-16 (NKJV)


It is so clear in the New Testament that whether through the wilful disobedience of the Jews (knowing the Law), or the ignorant rebellion of the Gentiles (not knowing the Law), we are all confined under sin and destined to the everlasting wrath of God against sin. Only two qualifiy to inherit the promise of God, and that is Abraham and the Seed (who is Christ) to whom the promise was made (Gal 3:16).

After years spent banging my head against the wall over things like this, I am inclined to believe that the reason for this "unreasonable reasoning", is the way dispensationalists are called to approach the Word of God. The reformed come to the Word with the fundamental understanding that the apostles were given special revelation from Christ concerning the Scriptures (Luke 24:27, 45), and were given divinely inspired remembrance of all His words and teachings (John 14:25-26) in order to write what is now the New Testament. Because of this, when seeking to interpret any passage of Scripture, especially Old Testament prophecies etc., we approach the text through the revelation given to the apostles by the Holy Spirit, according to the promise of Jesus to them. In other words, we approach the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament, and by doing so the interpretations taught by dispensationalists become null and void because they clearly conflict. Dispensationalists however will often argue from the other end, refusing to accept the spiritual nature of many Old Testament prophecies, even if Christ and the apostles made it crystal clear that was the case. Refusing to see there is somehow an "already and not yet" (to coin a common phrase) concerning prophetic fulfillment, that is now fulfilled in Christ and His Church, and will be fully manifest in the New Heavens and Earth that will be revealed at His return to judge the living and the dead.

Rant over anyway.  :smileyBounce:



It's all about Him!

Reformer

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2016, 05:02:51 AM »
It's been ages since I've been online here, but just happened to drop in and couldn't resist a comment here.  :laugh:

I have been arguing against dispensationalism for a few years now, and still find it difficult how certain people, many who seem otherwise orthodox doctrinally, utterly refuse to accept the blatant clarity of Scripture on this subject.

Certain people, certain preachers, certain churches, but it's all false teachings, making God's word by their traditions null and void. I'm sorry, I've dealt with this issue and with these people for years and I don't think it's simply a matter of an honest misunderstanding among God's people, unless we want to say all false gospels are a matter of misunderstanding. Because they are no different from those who say grace must be worked for, or who say the Charismatic church is the true gospel, or who say Muslims or Jews are saved by faith because we all worship the same God. They all follow the very same pattern of picking scriptures they want to believe and casting away those that they don't want to believe. Just as the Catholics, Morons or any other false gospel does. That's what separates true believers from false believers, the faithful keeping of God's word versus tossing it aside because we don't want to follow it. 

Lu 11:28
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

That means there will be those who claim Christ, hear the word, but do not keep God's word. They are not included in the Blessed. For them it goes in one ear and out the other. So many want o chalk dispensationalism up to a simple case of misunderstanding, but to me that's no different than saying the Jewish people who didn't know nor understand that Christ was the messiah, were simply in error and thus not under wrath of God. They believed in Christ and the kingdom, just not Jesus Christ or his kingdom. The truth is, we hear and receive because God is with us. Those who do not hear when it is explained to them countless times, do not understand because God has not given them to understand. So they're not honestly mistaken, they are dishonestly mistaken.

Mt 13:23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

God grants the increase, he says who understands, and the most forgotten truth of all, he denies understanding to those who never understand the promise, he true nature of the Kingdom and one family principle.


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For instance, just read this text in it's plain state, and try to interpret it any other way at all, other than there is only One Seed who is the true heir to the promise, and alone those who are found in Him (regardless of ethnicity), are Abraham's seed and co-heirs to the promise.

I agree, can't be done unless we are already predisposed to rejecting what God says before we even hear it. They're not looking for truth, they are looking to justify their beliefs. They won't receive the truth which is only revealed by the holy spirit. Which means they don't have the spirit to receive the fact that there is one children of God, and Gentiles are fellow heirs of the promise.

Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Fellowheirs of the same kingdom and are of the same body and partakers of the same promise in the Messiah.

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How can you get any clearer than that?!  ??? :Say_what:

Which only serves to show it is not just an honest mistake of fellow Christians reading scripture, but a dishonest ignoring of scripture in order to hold to views that are foreign to the Bible. Anyone can call that judgmental if they like, I call it obvious. No different than the Jews of Christ's time refusing to hear his explanations of the kingdom of God in clinging to their own interpretations of who was Israel, who was their Christ and how he would defeat of their enemies.


Pilgrim

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2016, 05:38:40 PM »
I have never been able to understand how so many Christians cannot seem to recognize the plain scriptures where God declares who are his children, who are his covenant people and who are Jews in his eyes. Mainly Premillennialists, but also some of the Reformed faith and quite a few evangelicals have a serious problem understanding God's one Christ, one people doctrine.

I could possibly understand it if it were the Jews only, but the number of Christians preaching this separation of God's people is astounding. Why so many ministers, who are supposed to know better?
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

Wayne

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2016, 08:43:31 PM »
I have never been able to understand how so many Christians cannot seem to recognize the plain scriptures where God declares who are his children, who are his covenant people and who are Jews in his eyes. Mainly Premillennialists, but also some of the Reformed faith and quite a few evangelicals have a serious problem understanding God's one Christ, one people doctrine.

I could possibly understand it if it were the Jews only, but the number of Christians preaching this separation of God's people is astounding. Why so many ministers, who are supposed to know better?

Ministers are the main reason so many Christians believe this. They are the deceivers, the Christians are the deceived.

Reformer

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2017, 05:23:11 PM »
Ministers are the main reason so many Christians believe this. They are the deceivers, the Christians are the deceived.

2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There are all types of ministers. Some ministers of light and some of darkness. Some Christians think all ministers are honorable and so are reticent to ever use the word false. I will, they're false.


Melanie

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2017, 10:55:23 AM »
I have never been able to understand how so many Christians cannot seem to recognize the plain scriptures where God declares who are his children, who are his covenant people and who are Jews in his eyes. Mainly Premillennialists, but also some of the Reformed faith and quite a few evangelicals have a serious problem understanding God's one Christ, one people doctrine.

Why evangelicals should think twice about equating modern Israel with Israel of the Bible
by BEN IRWIN

The other day, I raised a question for evangelicals who think standing with Israel means supporting them no matter what. How do you reconcile a “never criticize Israel” mentality with the overwhelming witness of the biblical prophets?

If you’ve been told that unconditional support for Israel is the only “biblical” position, that the modern-day state enjoys the same kind of “most favored nation” status with God as ancient Israel did, then here’s another question. If Israel today is entitled to the covenant blessings spoken by the Old Testament, what about their covenant obligations?

The Bible never spoke of Israel’s covenant blessings apart from their obligations. It’s no use trying to have one without the other.

If modern Israel is the same covenant nation written about in the Old Testament, then they are under the same covenant obligations.  If the laws that governed Israel in the Old Testament do not apply to Israel today, then they are just another nation, and they should be held to the same standard as every other nation.

 


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