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Author Topic: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God  (Read 9330 times)

billnjune

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2011, 04:13:38 PM »
This is on the “HOUSE”

Welcome to the forum and we look forward to studying together with you.

The Dispensational - Premillennialism is a web created by Satan and once entangled, it is very difficult to get yourself out. But for the grace of God it is impossible because your eyes must be opened by God alone. 

I believe that the very best starting place is Tony’s article on “The Israel of God!” which can be found here: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.html.  I have showed this article to Messianic Jews and they cannot deny the truths in the Bible, but because of the Jews being reestablished in 1948, they prefer to use Newspaper Hermeneutics rather than the Bible alone.  Therefore if you hermeneutical view is wrong, your conclusion will be wrong also. 

Tony and others on this forum have done an amazing job of unraveling many difficult topics.  I encourage you to keep reading from this forum.  From the search box at the top put in quotes “national Israel” or “premillennialism” etc. and you will find many good articles and topics that have been posted over the years.  May I suggest that you take one subject at a time and complete it prayerfully, being honest with the scriptures before going to the next topic.  This, I believe, is the only way to get this web of confusion out of your head. 

Bill
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billnjune

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2011, 05:00:17 PM »
Second thought for the HOUSE:

The following verses clearly teach that God shows no partiality in choosing His people. 

Acts 10:34   Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Galatians 2:6  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Ephesians 6:9   And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Colossians 3:25   But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
1 Timothy 5:21   I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
James 2:9   But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

We as Christians are sent into the world to be His witnesses and should love all men and desire their salvation.  To show favoritism to National Israel because of God’s treating them differently in the Old Testament, I believe is not becoming to the New Testament Christian.  We are to love our enemies but we also despise that which is not according to God’s word.  Therefore we choose sides, not because of heritage and skin color but what is right before God and His word.

America stole this land from the North American Indians and the Spanish because they were stronger (or whatever).  Was that right or wrong, you decide.  The same can be said for National Israel, but they don’t get special privileges because of who they are.  As I read the scriptures, they have forsaken God and are no longer the “Elect of God” (See Tony’s article in the previous post), and therefore should not receive any special privileges from the Christian community.

I trust that you don’t think of me as mean or cruel, but I see them as just another people-group who need the gospel of Christ in order to be saved.

Bill
The only regret that I have is that I only have one life to live for my God.

Robert Powell

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2011, 04:12:01 AM »
I trust that you don’t think of me as mean or cruel, but I see them as just another people-group who need the gospel of Christ in order to be saved.

Bill

yes. But too many people want to think of them as still the special people, apart from the Church. That is the problem.

As far as politics goes, as with any conflict, chances are that they are both in the wrong somewhere, and neither of them are righteous in their doings. That is all under God's providence. God is sovereign in all His purposes - He may do it either through good men or bad men as He raises up leaders and puts them down.

 Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
 21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

He raises up kings and puts down kings, whether we approve or mot is not really relevant. We will do what we think is right as far as support, but ultimately, God is in control.

Reformer

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2011, 05:09:07 AM »

 Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The only important thing is that the people of Israel need a savior, just like the people of Japan, Africa, Denmark and Argentina. Whether they have 100 more miles of land in the middle east should not even be a part of the equation for Christians. And the only reason it is, is because of the TV Hucksters who pose as the know-it-all's of prophecy.

The Christian already has a job, and it is  to take the gospel to the world. Their job is not to be the social engineers of the world. Someone should tell President Obama that also with his meddling in places like Libya (Philly Dawg -- Equal condemnation for Democrats).

 Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Israel's destiny is under the providence of God. Just like ours and every other kingdom. People are so worried about the goings on in this nation and that nation, they have forgotten exactly why they are here.  Not to make the world better, which is an impossible task, but to build the Church.

House

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2011, 05:37:51 AM »
Thanks so much for the information thus far.

I have a lot to think about and pray about and read.  What amazes me though is that those who support a Reformed position on this topic argue their position from the Bible -- but so do the dispensationalists.  John Macarthur contends that his position is the most biblical, you content yours is -- so for an outsider who is on the fence it is very difficult to come to a good, solid conclusion.  Nevertheless I will continue trying.

One last item...and I don´t want to get into an argument about social gospel on this thread...but I do believe we can do good for the world even in this broken and sinful age.  Sharing the Gospel is of utmost importance, but caring for physical needs is important as well.  Jesus did both and so should we.

That said, as it pertains to this topic, I would like to position myself as a person (Christian) who can offer such assistance to both Israelis and Palestinians who are suffering as a result of the conflict -- all the while sharing the message of Truth with them so that ultimately their greatest need can be met.

Reformer

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2011, 06:36:03 AM »
Thanks so much for the information thus far.

I have a lot to think about and pray about and read.  What amazes me though is that those who support a Reformed position on this topic argue their position from the Bible -- but so do the dispensationalists.

I would disagree. First, that we argue from a Reformed position. We are arguing from the Biblical position. From a position of "this is what the Bible says." Second, I disagree that Dispensationalists argue their position from the bible. On the contrary, they argue from a position of eisegesis, rather than exegetes. From reading into the scriptures, not reading what is in the scriptures. And I firmly believe that anyone with the spirit who chooses to carefully follow what they say, can plainly tell this is true. They place meaning on biblical text which is not originally or inherently present in the text itself. That's not arguing their position from the bible, nor is it a sound system of understanding the bible.


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John Macarthur contends that his position is the most biblical, you content yours is

No, I contend that the biblical position is the one explicitly written in scripture. Meaning, it's not my position, not MaCarthur's position, Not Scofield's position, not Calvin's position and not John White's position. So if we are honest with the text, it is actually easy to see what position is true to the word. It is the position in the word of God.


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-- so for an outsider who is on the fence it is very difficult to come to a good, solid conclusion.

Repeat: So if we are honest with the text, it is actually easy to see what position is true to the word. It's actually not difficult, but easy. But we have to compare what is said with what is written. If it is the same, it is a true witness. If not, then it is a private interpretation.



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One last item...and I don´t want to get into an argument about social gospel on this thread...but I do believe we can do good for the world even in this broken and sinful age.  Sharing the Gospel is of utmost importance, but caring for physical needs is important as well.  Jesus did both and so should we.

If Jesus wanted to, he could have healed every physical need in Israel, in the middle east, indeed in the world. But he didn't.  Why not? Because that is not his will, and it wasn't his task, nor is it ours. The Physical needs Christ attended to prefigured some spiritual need. That we need to spiritually feed the Hungry, clothe the destitute, open the eyes of the blind, heal the ears of the deaf, etc.

I don't think that God at any time in history, from the time of Adam until now, told anyone to worry about or help physically other nations like Israel, the Egyptians or the Palistinians. Nor to take all the money that we have worked for, and hand it over to poor people. Mind you, we can do that! But we do so from Christian liberty, and that's all well and good. But there is no command to do so. I would think a spirit led man would spend his money wisely, on the greatest need. Spiritually or Physically? You decide.

 I think that people mistake Christ's miracles and his teachings of charity as some mandate to physically care for the nations or feed the poor of the world, which is not the case. Christ is teaching spiritual charity, not that we should go find people who have been mugged (Luke 10:33) and take them home with us. He teaches Spiritual charity through physical problems. He did that all through his ministry.

 Lu 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
 
The poor that God wants us to share our riches with are the poor in spirit. Share our oil and wine with those who are wounded but open to the spiritual oil of healing. The spiritual wine of Christ's shed blood. Something that Christians today simply will not do. They just sit at home watching TV and repeating that they are Christians. But they make no effort to spread the gospel to those wounded by the side of the road and who need it. Christians in name only, worried about the world, but not lifting one finger to heal the wounds of the wounded.

 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


House

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 07:10:55 AM »
Thanks so much for the reply Reformer.  Although I do not agree with you, I do appreciate your insight.

I would argue that your viewpoint regarding God being only and mainly concerned with spiritual hunger, need, etc. borders on gnosticism -- the idea that God is only concerned with the spiritual...that man is mainly (if not all) all spiritual -- an idea that was condemned in the early church I believe.

I am curious what you believe the Bible to be teaching us in James 2:15,16?  (I suggest we start another thread/topic if this conversation continues in this direction)

Thanks so much again.  Christ´s love be with you.

Dana Pescator

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2011, 08:14:19 AM »
Thanks so much for the reply Reformer.  Although I do not agree with you, I do appreciate your insight.

I would argue that your viewpoint regarding God being only and mainly concerned with spiritual hunger, need, etc. borders on gnosticism --


Actually his view borders on God actually being sovereign, meaning that if it were his will, there would be no hungry nor homeless nor sick and infirmity. If God wanted to end hunger and sickness, there would be no hunger and sickness. To deny that is to deny his sovereignty.

 "For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always." --John 12:8

What was the main concern Christ is teaching, the poor or the body of Christ? You think he just wanted some oil on him? That's a lesson for all of us that escapes a lot of people. That if a hungry man dies with a belly full of food, what is he profited better than if he dies with a belly full of the bread of life. Where's the value for your dollar? The poor you have with you always, so give oil to the body of Christ for the resurrection of the dead.

Since the topic of this thread is the state of Israel, what state should we be feeding? The physical state or the Spiritual state? One state will live if it is fed, the other will not live even if we send millions of dollars to defend it. But I sense you are not listening. It's just common biblical sense which is the important part.


Reformer

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2011, 08:28:49 AM »
Actually his view borders on God actually being sovereign, meaning that if it were his will, there would be no hungry nor homeless nor sick and infirmity. If God wanted to end hunger and sickness, there would be no hunger and sickness. To deny that is to deny his sovereignty.

Exactly my view. That God is sovereign and he has no intention of ending hunger or the poor in this world. Nor did he send us in vain to attempt to accomplish it. We have a "Better" job!


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"For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always." --John 12:8


Yup. Poverty is never gonna end in this life. NEVER! What we can do (if we love Christ) is what we are told. Not what seems right from a liberal humanistic point of view.

 Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

That doesn't mean get some grass to give to the barnyard animals. Nor does it mean to sell our home in order to send bread to Somalia.


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That if a hungry man dies with a belly full of food, what is he profited better than if he dies with a belly full of the bread of life. Where's the value for your dollar? The poor you have with you always, so give oil to the body of Christ for the resurrection of the dead.

 Now that's spiritual food right there brother! Keep it coming! The poor are made rich by it! Rather than having their belly full for a day and remaining spiritually poor.


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Since the topic of this thread is the state of Israel, what state should we be feeding? The physical state or the Spiritual state? One state will live if it is fed, the other will not live even if we send millions of dollars to defend it. But I sense you are not listening. It's just common biblical sense which is the important part.

 You took the words right out of my mouth. Some Christians think they can work their way to heaven by these humanistic good works. Like they are somehow better people than the rest because they give literal bread through bread lines. Or because they support a homeless shelter God will reward them. Roman Catholics are famous for this type of "works based" thinking, which is why they have a lot of these charitable outlets. But the real test is true charity, not the the superficial charity, but the spiritual kind.


billnjune

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2011, 01:04:41 PM »
For the House:

Here is a suggestion to help you get this important issue unscrambled. 

Read Tony’s article (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/israel.html) with your Bible open and list every disagreement or questions that you might have and then do the same for MacAuthor’s writings and then post any questions that you still might have on this forum.  I am sure that this will clear it up for you if you follow the Biblical hermeneutics of the Bible only. 

Bill
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Joe Johnson

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2011, 02:20:30 PM »

There is of course an alternative view to Tony's ideas..

 http://www.levitt.com/essays/israel-church.html

Some people choose to spiritualize everything from the poor to Israel, and some take the word seriously.


Tony Warren

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2011, 03:37:48 PM »
>>>
There is of course an alternative view to Tony's ideas..

 http://www.levitt.com/essays/israel-church.html

Some people choose to spiritualize everything from the poor to Israel, and some take the word seriously.

<<<

There's always an alternative view. Even the Scribes and Pharisees had an alternative view. The question is, does this view harmonize with the word of God or does it contradict it. That is the pertinent question.



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>>>
The two major views are that:

The Church is a continuation of Israel
The Church is completely different from Israel
<<<

...and clearly, they both cannot be right, nor can they both be the teachings of Christ. Because they are contradictory to each other. But as Reformer said, we have to look at it from the position of "this is what the Bible says," and not one of "this is what many people THINK the Bible means."

Romans 11:17
  • "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

If it is true that the Olive tree represents Covenant Israel (and it does), then if the Gentile branches are grafted into "THAT" tree among them as scripture plainly teaches, then clearly (1)the Church is a continuation of that Covenant Israel, and the idea that (2)the Church is completely different from that covenanted Israel, is found to be unbiblical. That is to say if we accept the authority of scripture over the postulations of men.


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>>>
Thus, the prophecies relating to the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" into promises of blessing to the Church.
<<<

Spiritualized  blessings? The unconditional promises don't have to be "spiritualized," because the eternal promises were never to the nation in the first place. They were to a people chosen by Grace, not by national origin. A people in Messiah, not in the middle east. They were to a people made holy, not to a holy people. They were the unconditional promises.

The "conditional" promises that were made to the nation of Israel were all kept, so long as the "conditions" were met. No, the promises were not spiritualized, they were always to a spiritual Israel, a spiritual people who were and are but a remnant. They were never to a whole nation, race or bloodline (except it be by the Spiritual heritage of Christ).


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>>>
This view is sometimes called Replacement Theology, because the Church is seen to replace Israel in God’s economy.
<<<

In one way "Replacement Theology" is a misnomer. From what I read, God's word says the Gentile branches are grafted in among the Jewish branches that were not broken off. i.e., the Covenant/Promise that God made with Israel continues with Gentiles added in. That's the authority of Scripture.  The Nation of Israel was never to be the restored Israel of God, they were the physical representation on earth of the true Israel of God. Just as the assembly or Church is today is the physical representation on earth of the true Israel of God. The same spiritual people under the same Covenant, but from a different earthly dispensation. It was this kingdom representation that was clearly taken (Matthew 21:43) away from the Old Testament congregation and given to the New Testament congregation. But in the true sense, Israel wasn't replaced, it was extended to the Gentiles.


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>>>
The other view, we believe, is clearly taught in the New Testament, but it has been suppressed throughout most of Church history. This view is that the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused. In fact, the Church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead,
<<<

It's not a teaching that is suppressed, it's a teaching that has no basis or authority of Scripture. The assembly of God (church) is God's people no matter where or when they exist. Easily proven by the authority of Scripture.

Acts 7:38-39
  • "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
  • To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,"

According to God's inerrant word, the church didn't come into existence on the Day of Pentecost as you claim, but was in the wilderness when the children of Israel came out of Egypt. So the only thing that has been suppressed throughout most of church history, is this unadulterated FACT in God's authoritative word. Suppressed by those who don't particularly like what it says.


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>>>
This leaves all the covenants, promises, and warnings to Israel intact. Israel, the natural Jewish nation, is still Israel.
<<<

Sure it is Israel. But what Israel?  For as God plainly says, all Israel is "not" Israel. Listen to the authority of God's word on the matter. God's promise hasn't been made void by us, it's just that you don't understand what Israel the promise pertained to.

Romans 9:6-8
  • "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
  • Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
  • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Was the promise to the Israel of God under His covenant, or an Israel in flesh name only? When God says they are not all Israel who are of Israel (Romans 9:6-8), clearly the nation doesn't define who is the true Israel of God as many professing Christians suppose.

Ephesians 2:12-14
  • "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

Clearly, according to God's word, there are not two bodies, one of Jews and one of Gentiles, but one commonwealth of Israel, with Gentiles no longer strangers from the Covenants of promise that were made to it. So either a great many people can't actually read, or else they can't comprehend what is written.

...that is to say, if we deem the word of God as authoritative.

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I'll grant that there are two groups, but they are divided into those who take the word of God as authoritative, and those who ignore what it says in order to follow after the private interpretations and traditions of men. The question is, are we ruled over by man in the Temple, or is our authority God?


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>>>
Some suggest that if Israel has not ceased to exist in its covenant relationship to God, and if Israel still has a future in the divine plan, this somehow diminishes the position of the Church.
<<<

No, actually it divides the Covenant people in direct violation of everything that the word of God teaches concerning one body, neither Jew nor Gentile, all of one commonwealth, all one in Christ. And that it is Christ Himself (the true Son, the Israel of God) that makes his covenant people the true Israel in Him. God already said we are the Israel who are the children of Promise, so what further witness do we need.

Romans 9:6-8
  • "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
  • Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
  • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Theologians contradict this word of God in declaring that the children of the flesh "ARE INDEED" the Israel of God, and we of the promise are not Israel. God says that the children of the flesh Israel are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. So then, who is man really arguing with, is it us or are they really arguing with God?

Galatians 4:27-31
  • "For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
  • Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
  • But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
  • Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
  • So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

Clearly God is teaching that we (the church) are the free woman, the children of Promise that are counted for the seed. The Israel that is the Israel of God, and not the children of the flesh (national Israel). There is not two Covenant Israelites that are the people of God. The Israel of God is a Body undivided by man's ideas of vain genealogies, laws of men and Jewish fables (Titus 1:14). It is as it has always been, one people of God.  It is not that the word of God doesn't plainly say these things, it is that the people refuse to hear or receive it. They are blinded to read these truths with honest eyes, just like the majority in the nation of Israel.

Romans 2:28
  • "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"
Galatians 3:28
  • "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Colossians 3:11
  • "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Yes, both Israel and the Jews still has a future in the divine plan, but Israel and the Jews will be defined by the authoritative word of God, not by man.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
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Big Ben

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2011, 04:46:09 AM »

There's always an alternative view. Even the Scribes and Pharisees had an alternative view. The question is, does this view harmonize with the word of God or does it contradict it. That is the pertinent question.


 I find it just astounding how you have all these years addressed every single one of their issues with scripture proofs for what you say, and they have not addressed one single witness of God's word declaring it untrue. And yet they all cling to this belief despite all these obvious contradictions and lack of real support from scripture. Astounding!

Then I realize that it is by grace of God.

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."  Hebrews 8:10-13


Doesn't that say it all of who the Israel the promises were made to? How can someone not see this New Covenant with Israel being the New Testament. How? If you actually read the passage, how do you not see that even if you don't want to see it? That's why I say I find it just astounding.

billnjune

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2011, 01:15:50 PM »
Joe Johnson,

I read your link carefully and wanted to comment:
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One of the problems with the view, among others, is the continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned to extinction, and there is no divinely ordained future for the Jewish nation, how does one account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people since the establishment of the Church, for almost 2,000 years against all odds? Furthermore, how does one account for Israel’s resurgence among the family of nations as an independent nation, victorious in several wars and flourishing economically?
Please notice that there is NO Biblical reference but only looking to experiences from the news. This is what I call newspaper theology and is bad hermeneutics.

Next, in the few verses that are used to prove premillennialism, if you read the verses carefully in context they are not saying what they are claimed or portrayed to say. This is what is called ISOGESIS (an interpretation, of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like), which inevitably leads to heresy.  In Tony’s article every argument is carefully documented with scripture used within context which is called EXEGESIS (Critical analysis, of a text.).

You be the judge which is correct.  This looks to me like “the blind leading the blind” or “pooled ignorance”.
The only regret that I have is that I only have one life to live for my God.

Robert Powell

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2011, 03:07:16 PM »
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One of the problems with the view, among others, is the continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel.

The fact that Israel continues to exist is proof of what? That's like saying that the fact that China continues to exist after all their wars is proof they are God's chosen people? Or that Egypt continues to exist even though they held Israel in bondage? This isn't biblical validation of anything, it is proof by assertion. Because Israel exists as a nation that proves they are God's people? That isn't logical.


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If Israel has been condemned to extinction,

No one said the nation had been condemned to extinction except some overzelous theologians. But we see what this man is doing. He's making a false comment, and then arguing against it. God's word never said Israel as a nation would be extinct, it said that the nation would no longer have the kingdom. I hope that people would read more carefully. They are desolate spiritually, not physically.

 Matt. 21:42-43 "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

 The Kingdom of God was taken from then, not their nation becoming extinct. That is an idea than theologians have perpetrated, not something the bible says. Yes, they were displaced for a while, but that was probably God sending strong delusion to Christians than a promise of extinction. There never was such a promise.


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and there is no divinely ordained future for the Jewish nation, how does one account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people since the establishment of the Church, for almost 2,000 years against all odds?

Supernatural? Did I miss some miracle of an army of angels coming down from the sky and securing the land with super Bows? I see no supernatural survival, I see a nation that survived by united nations actions, and by military might, mostly provided by the west. How is that supernatural?

This man invented this supernatural aspect when it was nothing more than divine providence, the same reason any other nation survives or is put down by a conqueror. It was God's divine will, that's all.


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Furthermore, how does one account for Israel’s resurgence among the family of nations as an independent nation, victorious in several wars and flourishing economically?

You mean it has to be a miracle if a people overthrow another nation or is victorious in wars? Or it is a miracle if a nation prospers economically? I see a problem in this man's defining of a miracle. Jesus did real miracles, Israel becoming a nation again is not a miracle. At least not in the Bible miracle sense. God puts up kings and takes then down every day, I wouldn't call that a miracle.

What we have here is a man that builds a house of straw and then expects everyone to say it is well built. No pun intended. When House started this thread he claimed that those who support a Reformed position on this topic argue their position from the Bible -- but so do the dispensationalists.  Really?  I have yet to see it. I've been a Christian for many years and I have yet to see it. What I see is a whole lot of talking and no proofing. Israel doing well economically or having superior weaponry is proof of nothing. Much less proof of a miracle of God that he still looks at them as his kingdom people.

Sorry, I'm with Big Ben. It is astounding what some people will believe and teach, with absolutely no biblical proof of anything except that some man says it.

 


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