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Author Topic: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God  (Read 9304 times)

Layla

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The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« on: March 28, 2003, 09:04:54 AM »
Hi David,

I saw this from another thread:

"The nation of Israel ceased to be the national representatives of the kingdom of God when Christ came. The Kingdom of God is not a country, it is not the nation in the middle east. It is not a race of people. It is not a physical kingdom on this earth. God's word is clear, it's in the carnal minds of men where there is confusion. Christ's kingdom is not of this world. God's chosen holy nation is the Church."

I want to first state, that I agree with what you have written in that thread and I fully understand who Israel is today.  I am, however, curious as to what your beliefs are regarding the State of Israel. Do you think it was prophecized to come into being in Jeremiah and that the war which brought it about (including the 6 day war) was not brought about by the hand of God?

Peace,
Layla

David Oddo

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2003, 11:59:01 AM »
Quote
I am, however, curious as to what your beliefs are regarding the State of Israel.

Hi Layla.

I believe the modern day state of Israel, is Israel in name only, and not in truth. That is, they are not the Israel of God.

Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Quote
Do you think it was prophecized to come into being in Jeremiah

I am not sure which passage in Jeremiah you have in mind, but no, I do not believe the 6 day war is mentioned in Jeremiah. There are many passages that speak of the regathering of Israel, and God's planting them upon their land. But this is not fulfilled in the returning of some Jews to the land of Israel in 1948. They are still just as much in captivity as they were before 1948, if they don't know the Messiah. The verses that speak of the regathering of the outcasts of Israel, are speaking of the elect being gathered together in Christ. And the land that we are to inherit is the New Heaven and Earth.  For example, we read in Amos 9...

Amos 9:14-15
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.


And we see that this is fulfilled in the New Heaven and Earth...

Isaiah 65:17-22
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.



Quote
Do you think it....... that the war which brought it about (including the 6 day war) was not brought about by the hand of God?

Yes, the 1948 war and the 6 day war were brought about by the Sovereign hand of God. All wars happen under His divine providence. God caused the modern day state of Israel to come into existence, that is not an issue up for debate. He has caused every nation to be brought into existence, or cease to exist, as he has willed. God raised up the Soviet Union and brought it down. God raised up Saddam Hussien, and is now bringing him down. God is in total control of the affairs of all the nations of the earth.

Job 12:23
He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.


But only 1 nation is the Israel of God. And it is not the present day state of Israel in the middle east. :)

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


In Christ
Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Doug Johnson

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2003, 04:35:11 AM »
Israel is always Israel. How can you say Israel is not Israel? Didn't Israel have Titus destroy it in ad 70? Was that spiritual israel? No, it was the nation israel.

David Oddo

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2003, 07:20:33 AM »
Quote
Israel is always Israel.

Says Doug, not the word of God. Because someone is of Jewish descent does not make them the Israel of God. That is, the children of the flesh are not the seed of Abraham, but the children of the promise. We are the seed of Abraham through faith in Christ Jesus. Let's look at what God's word says...


Romans 4:16-17
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,)


Galatians 3:27-29
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Quote
How can you say Israel is not Israel?

The problem is you are not making the distinction between the Israel after the flesh (1 Corinthians 10:18), and the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). But God's word makes this distinction. The Reprobate Jews who have rejected the Messiah, may be of the Israel after the flesh, but they are not of the Israel of God.

John 8:39-44
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


I don't deny there is a Jewish Race who make up the physical seed of Abraham. The question is, why do you deny there is a Spiritual seed of Abraham, that makes up the Israel of God, when Scripture so clearly teaches this? God's word defines who the true Jew is, not Doug Johnson.

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


In Christ


Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

canuk

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2003, 01:54:33 AM »
I don't deny there is a Jewish Race who make up the physical seed of Abraham. The question is, why do you deny there is a Spiritual seed of Abraham, that makes up the Israel of God, when Scripture so clearly teaches this? God's word defines who the true Jew is, not Doug Johnson.


Romans 2:28-29

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.






Doug just doesn't get it...hes been handled with kid gloves, coddled, screamed at, all manner of devices have been tried to reach him? Hes been given scripture after scripture yet he continues to spout out his own brand of Gospel, formulated I believe by all the best sellers he can get his mitts on. So its hard to figure out what is actually coming out of Doug or if its something hes been reading? The Bible seems to be secondary to him, as he loves the pretty ideas he reads of others interpretations of the Bible. For he is constantly promoting the latest rags, every chance he gets.  And what's worse I suspect hes a Catholic?



2Tim:1:9:   Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Layla

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2003, 09:30:50 AM »
Greetings to All

I am not aware of what Doug may or may not think.  But the question here is not who is Israel.  Clearly David and Canuk through scripture have answer that question and there are many more scriptures which show who Israel is.

Notwithstanding, this is a good topic because the vast majority of Christians don't really understand who those are who live in the state of Israel. Isn't the state of Israel best represented by the people who live there, as is any nation?

First of all one needs to understand the difference between the state of Israel and the Israel of God. The state of Israel has nothing to do with the Israel of God as God's true Israel has nothing to do with a landmass or region of land.

The way I see it, the majority of those who live in the land of Israel are Jews and those who say they are Jews and are not but do lie, and the Palestinians.

One thing to keep in mind old Testament Israel is comprised of 12 different tribes of which Judah is only 1/12 of Israel total. Therefore it would have been more correct if the land of Israel that we know today were named Judah as the northern part of that land was known before.  The tribe of Judah (Jews) and Benjamin? dwelt in the northern part Judah, while the other 10 tribes dwelt in the south in Israel.

This is part of a great deception today that the land in the Middle East is God's Israel. Why are not the churches teaching that the land of Israel is in reality Judah and not God's Israel. There is definitely an agenda going on... it's called deception.

But back to the question, Was the current State of Israel prophecized and brought about by the hand of God?

Do the following scriptures help us in this understanding?

First allow me to document just who the fig tree represents.

Jeremiah 24:5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. (read whole chapter)

Here God acknowledges captive Judah as good figs ... now combined this with the parable of the fig tree, which Jesus cursed and it withered and died... just as that land cease to exist after 70 A.D.

Now add... Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This fig tree spoken of is NOT Israel but "Judah", today known as the land Israel. Jesus said that Judah (the fig tree) would "shoot forth" in the generation that would see all things fullfilled.

Is this private interpretation and if so, then just what do all these scripture mean?

Peace,
Layla

Withoutcamp

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2003, 01:07:02 PM »
Hello to all,

I'm new here...been reading the posts and what...have lots o' questions, m'self and much to learn.

I wanted to address something Doug posted in regards to who Israel is and who they are not.  In Joshua we see that all that God had promised to Israel had indeed come to pass.......

Joshua 21:43-45
"And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their father; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
all came to pass."There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel;  all came to pass."

Layla, I don't know about Jeremiah, but is it possible that in Luke Christ is really only referring to the fig tree as an example of watching for the signs of the end...being that we know when the trees do bud that summer is near...then if we can discern the signs of the end we shall know that the time is near.  Is it possible that the mention of the fig tree in that particular verse doesn't have anything to do with Judah, but just used as an example?

Thanks!

Layla

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2003, 03:09:15 PM »
Greetings WC

Indeed I could be pulling teeth on this which is why I am asking for other views.  However, I do note it interesting that Jesus would state "Learn" the parable of the fig tree.  Seems like a simple enough parable, that what leads me to conclude there is more to it.  Additionally, can we not consider Jeremiah 24 to be a parable?

Matthew 24
32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:  
33   So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.  
34   Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Mark 13
28   Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:  
29   So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.  
30   Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done

Peace,
Layla

Withoutcamp

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2003, 03:27:02 PM »
Hey Layla,

I'm sorry I couldn't help you with your question.  I've got a lot of 'em, m'self!...hehehe!

I do see what you are saying, though.

  Tis hard for me to read Jeremiah 24 as if it were just a parable...seeing that a vision was given and then the vision explained.  
And with the fig tree budding...summer being near, parable, I can only read that to be discernment of the times....not being a vision to be explained.  With the fig tree parable, I think Jesus is just saying to be spiritually discerning.  

Wish I could've helped a bit more....I'm still learning and I pray that I'll ne'er stop!!

Peace to you and yours,
Withoutcamp

Layla

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2003, 07:19:03 PM »
Greetings WC

Please don't apologize, for in fact you did help.  You see with me the "jury is out" so to speak on many of these issues.  The only thing I am certain of is that Jesus Christ is the son of my Heavenly Father who died for my sins so that I may have eternal life.  So infact when every one in Christ gives an opinion on different issues, I take them in and remember them and then as I continue to study some things I throw out and others I retain.  

Thanks for your thoughts.

Peace,
Layla

David Oddo

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2003, 06:37:17 AM »
Hi Layla,

I'd like to comment on Jeremiah 24. First of all, as we study the book of Jeremiah we find the 70 yr period of Babylonian captivity for the Nation of Judah, typified the great tribulation period for the Church. When once again God brings Judgment on the house of God, the city called by his name, and the people are overcome by the enemy in Jerusalem. The Babylonians typifing the kingdom of Satan, which is brought against the Church during the tribulation. We are Jerusalem/Judah, that God has made a cup of trembling unto all the people round about...

Zechariah 12:2
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.


Let's look at Jeremiah 24:5, which you brought up....

Jeremiah 24:5
Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.


I believe the good figs of Judah that are taken away captive are representing the saints that are overcome by the Beast...

Daniel 11:33
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Lamentations 1:3
Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.


Now we read in Jeremiah 24-6-7, this promise of the Lord to the good figs/saints, which are taken into captivity.....

Jeremiah 24:5-7
Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.


Daniel 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The restoration of Jeremiah 24:5-7 is not speaking of the state in the middle east becoming a nation in 1948. They have no interest in the Messiah, and are still very much in captivity. No, the verses that speak of Judah/Israel being brought into the land have their fulfillment in the New Heaven and Earth, with the redeemed of the Lord. We are the Jerusalem of God, we are spiritual Judah, and the Lion of the tribe of Judah is our King. We are the people of God, the New Jerusalem, which shall be planted in the promised land forever.

Psalm 69:34-36
Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein.
For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession.
The seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his name shall dwell therein.

Isaiah 40:9-11  
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Joel 3:20
But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.


In Christ


Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Layla

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2003, 08:18:51 AM »
Greetings David

I've only been studying the Word about 6 yrs. now, and only recently came to the net, I guess a year now.  One of the things I heard was "the generation" that Jesus Christ spoke of in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 was "this generation of the fig tree that was planted in 1948."  At first, I thought it all made perfect sense, until I began studying it.  then, it seemed to me to have to be forced, which is why I thought I would pose the question to this board (who appear to be very disciplined in only allowing scripture to interpret scripture) to see if there was something I was missing.  Thanks for your responses.

Peace,
Layla

TrevorL

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2005, 06:46:29 AM »
Genesis 13v14-15 The Promise of the Land

God promised the land to Abraham and his seed.
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Paul states that this seed is Christ.
Galatians 3:16 (KJV): "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

The Gentile believers at Galatia, and all who have believed the gospel of Christ and are baptised also inherit the land promise of Genesis 13:15:
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): "26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Paul shows that the nation of Israel were not heirs to the land through the Law. They were temporary tenants.
Romans 4:13-16 (KJV): "13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

The land promise is to all the faithful from Eden to the coming of Christ because they will be resurrected to receive everlasting life and they will inherit the land for ever.
Genesis 13:15 (KJV): "For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."
Matthew 5:5 (KJV): "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
Hebrews 11:39-40 (KJV): "39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."


Kind regards
Trevor

TrevorL

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2006, 06:21:50 AM »
Greetings. Isaiah 49:1-6 is the second of four Servant Songs. There is a distinction between Israel as God’s servant, and this particular servant who is introduced in the first song by:
Isaiah 42:1 (KJV): “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”
We are called upon to behold him, and our attention is drawn to the fact that his work and ministry would extend to the Gentiles.

These two elements are also found in the second song:
Isaiah 49:1-3 (KJV): “1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

This message is particularly relevant to us who live in the isles and the lands distant from Judea. The gospel was preached in Jerusalem and Judea, and then the Apostles spread the gospel throughout the Roman Empire. In these latter days the gospel has spread to the isles, to a people from far. We are called upon to behold God’s servant, and Jesus himself as The Servant calls upon us to listen to him and hearken. The reason is because he is the one whose mouth is like a sharp sword and through him God will be glorified.

The ministry of Isaiah and Jesus was prophesied to be largely ineffectual with their contemporaries, the children of Israel.
Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV): “9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”
These words are applicable to Isaiah and also to Jesus as a number of NT quotations verify.

The Servant also echoes this failure of Israel to respond:
Isaiah 49:4-5 (KJV): “4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.”

The words “I have laboured in vain” indicate Jesus’ thoughts towards the end of his ministry. John 12 records the last public ministry of Jesus and the failure of the nation to believe and accept him as their Messiah.
John 12:37-41 (KJV): “37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”

The tentative failure of his ministry to Israel drove home the realisation of the coming crucifixion and he expresses his distress at the coming rejection:
John 12:27-28 (KJV): “27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

Jesus takes up the language of Isaiah 49 when he speaks of God’s name being glorified and God endorses that His Name will be glorified through Jesus as Isaiah 49 had stated:
Isaiah 49:3 (KJV): “And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

Another interesting connection between Isaiah 49 and John 12 is that Jesus spoke these words at the visit of the Greeks, and this anticipates the gospel going forth to the Gentiles as depicted in Isaiah 49. Jesus speaks of the ultimate success of his work:
John 12:32-33 (KJV): “32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

We live at the end of an era, perilous times when the world can easily turn away our ears and eyes from beholding God’s servant and allowing his word to shape our lives. The message of The Servant in this second song is relevant to us:
Isaiah 49:1 (KJV): “Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far;”

Kind regards
Trevor

House

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Re: The State of Israel vs. the Israel of God
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2011, 06:44:17 AM »
I believe this is a Reformed site/forum, so the answer(s) I receive will probably within this category -- nevertheless I am deeply searching for some help.

I come from a conservative premillenial dispensationalist background and for some years have been very pro Israel.  I am still pro Israel, but I can no longer ignore the plight of innocent Palestinians -- both Arab and Christian.  Some in my circles have said the Sermon on the Mount is not for today -- I no longer believe that -- therefore I want to be more of a peacemaker in the way Jesus would be.

Is it possible to find a "third way" theologically speaking between dispensationalism and covenant(ism) so that a more balanced approach to the problems in the Middle East can be discovered?  As I read the Bible, I can see both arguments -- but somehow I believe that with further study one can find the true answer regarding Israel and its relationship to its neighbors.  I feel like this issue is so polarized -- it´s either one way or the other.  It´s either an out and out denial of Israel´s right to the land, or it is Christian Zionism.  Any thoughts?  I could really use some help.

 


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