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Author Topic: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God  (Read 341 times)

Tony Warren

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Re: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2017, 05:45:37 AM »
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Am I the only one here with the courage to stand up against this clear error denying Satan coming into heaven to talk to God?
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Yes, I absolutely deny that the vile, deadly and lying spirit Satan comes into heaven to chat face to face with God. What fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness, and what communion has light with darkness (2nd Corinthians 6:14)? The "correct" answer is none at all!

John 8:44
  • "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.."

He was never in the light of God's holy Heaven, never a son of God, never a messenger of truth, and never a top/chief/arch angel in heaven controlling an army of rebellious spirits against God. The light (which God is) cannot dwell with darkness. There is no darkness in heaven, which necessarily means there is no Satan there, as he is the epitome of darkness and the Father of lies "from the beginning."

Revelation 22:5
  • "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

There was never any night in the place where we will sit with Christ in that heaven, there was never any need for a candle, nor for the light of  sun because the Lord God is the light of heaven wherein is no darkness, and always has been. No murderer from the beginning was dwelling there with Him.


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 The fallen angels is a well established doctrine of the church.
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So was the edict "against" divorce and immorality of dress, and yet today (as we discussed this before) you have no problem going against those "established" edicts of the church now, claiming reasons for divorce, remarriage and modesty that the historical church would have never condoned. Is that not hypocrisy, perfidiousness or even deceit? Because it is clear that you are picking and choosing exactly which historical church teachings that you want to accept, while ignoring others you "think" are out of date or touch. But That is precisely why we are not to blindly follow established or non-established church doctrines and traditions. The faithful servant of God gets his doctrines, understanding and teachings from the word of God alone and in its entirety. And this truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth) that dwells within them. It's not church doctrines, Bible commentaries or vaunted teachers words that we pray God we "keep" or "hold fast," it is the teachings and doctrines of the unadulterated Scriptures. And it is the fallen messengerss (not angels) that is our well established doctrine of the word.

2nd Timothy 1:13-14
  • " Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
  • That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us."

When our God says is we love Him we must "keep" His commandments, or "hold fast" His word, He is exhorting us to "guard it from loss." Because the way of the world is to ever be attempting to adulterate it, to cut off the edges of it to make it smoother, to chip away at sound teachings, and make denials of what is clearly written in order that they may feel justified in their doings. In short, established doctrines don't mean anything if they are not proved or provable by Scripture. The doctrine of works is a well established doctrine in some churches, but it's neither true nor provable by Scripture. Likewise any other doctrine than cannot be justified by Scripture rather than the suppositions of man.


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 Even the "Reformed" Geneva Bible commentary on this matter says this:

"Meaning the angels, who are called the sons of God because they are willing to execute his will."
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#1. Satan has been a murderer and the adversary of God from the "very Beginning." He was thus a liar promoting what is contrary to God's will from the very beginning.
#2. Where in Scripture does it say "angels are called the sons of God" because they are willing to execute his will?" Not where in the commentary of the Geneva Bible does it say this, but where in God's Holy and definitive word does it say that?
#3. If those angels were willing to execute His word, why were they fallen and why were they all destroyed in the flood with the rest of mankind? Or do you think they ascended "back" into heaven after the flood?

The answer of course is, they weren't angels, and the Bible doesn't say any of that. This is mere speculation by man. It is simple supposition, and to be frank, guesswork. Should not God's people get their interpretations from a more knowledgeable and infallible source ...like the author? i.e., let God's perfect word tell us who sons of God represent? Are not the members of His congregation called that?

Phlippians 2:15
  • "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

The sons of God are believers, those spiritual children of God that are of so high an estate that they in Christ Jesus should seek to be harmless, blameless and without fault in the middle of this perverse and crooked world. The Old Testament congregation of Israel were no different, they were also called the sons/children of God. We, being called sons of God, does not mean that we are angels does it? G.E.D., neither I nor the Geneva Bible are the end-all in Bible interpretation. The Holy Scriptures are. "Sola Scriptura!" The Holy scriptures alone, the truth God has inspired written are our authority for reproof, rebuke, correction and instruction in righteousness today. Correction nesessarily implies man's need for it.


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So your own people agree with us.
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Christ's own people disagreed with Him also, but what did that mean about where the truth was? Did it mean they were right that He wasn't the Messiah and His own teachings were wrong? So once again I repeat, teachers and theologians may be your authority, but my people are not my ultimate authority, God's word is. A couple verses of one of my favorite chapters of the Bible says it best because it emphasizes it over and over and over again.

Psalms 119:140-42
  • "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
  • I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
  • Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."

In other words,

1st John 5:2
  • "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

We love our people and that is illustrated by our keeping (as in "guard from loss") His Holy word. Not keeping as in by works, but as in by the Spirit of Christ.


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Before they were fallen, heavenly angels were called “sons of God”.
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Please supply chapter and verse where God says this, inspired it written, or even implies this, and then we can discuss it. Otherwise, it's another example of "proof by assertion" rather than Scripture.


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We believe that they are called “sons of God” because they possess personality like God.
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The fly in that ointment is that Satan was a murderous, evil and wicked being from the very beginning. That is to say, before there was a the fall of Adam and Eve and before there was a congregation. He was vile, despicable snake right in the garden of Eden when there were only two people in the world, because he is the spirit of evil. If he was not a Son of God in the garden of Eden, how then did he become one in the episode of Job? He was not a angel jumping back and forth from being a snake in the garden on earth and being a angel presenting himself in Holy heaven before God about Job or fighting wars with Michael there before God. Again:

John 8:44
  • "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

God's word is pure, consistent, true, and has harmony and conformity with itself. When it doesn't, you should know that what's being said is His word is not true. Satan was a snake and adversary from the time of the first man, as he went about tempting Adam and Eve. How then, "years Later with the episode of Job," was he a son of God who hadn't fallen yet? Does that really make any sense, or is that a rationalization and justification for those who can't fit him into God's Holy heaven any other way? Moreover, what fellowship has God with the Lord with Satan?

2nd Corinthians 6:14b-15a
  • "...for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
  • And what concord hath Christ with Belial?..."

I would say none, how about you? So Satan was not communing with God in the light of Heaven. Our Lord has no concord with Satan? It's like mixing light with darkness, and it can't be done because either the light will become darker or the dark become lighter. Satan is darkness, not light, so what communion has this wicked agent of darkness with God's holy heaven which is only light? The "correct" answer is none.


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This term is also used in Genesis 6:2 which tells us the the angels, spoken of as “sons of God”, took wives from among the “daughters of men.”
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That's not true of course, as Genesis 6:2 in no way tells us the sons/children of God were angels. Read the passage "in context" because you are "injecting" your own beliefs into the text, not reading the idea from the text.

Genesis 6:1-2
  • "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
  • That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

What do we really have here? Well, we have God explaining how "man" began to multiply in the world and "daughters" were born to these men. So what comes in the next verse? God says (in this context) that the sons of God (which we know are believers) saw these "daughters of men" that they were very beautiful to look at and so they began to marry them. That violates God's word of the separation of His people (sons/children of God) from the daughtwers of the world. Now how in the name of all rationality can we take from those verses that these were not sons of God but actually "heavenly angels?" Where is there even the slightest implication that these were angels from heaven? Can an angel even marry a human woman? The fact is, "daughters of men" is used in this context in contrast to "sons of God" illustrating these were not women who were children of God, but those multiplying in the world and of unbelief.

Sons of God = God's congregation = believers
Daughters of men = Daughters of the world = unbelievers

Thus it would follow perfectly that this is exactly why the congregation of God turned away from Him and became wicked where ultimately only Noah and his (8 souls) were left as "true" believers. Because that's what happens when the church marries outside of its people. The seed produced is part of unbelief and the cycle and outcome of worldliness is inevitable. Just as we have in our day. selah. i.e., Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?  And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel (2nd Corinthians 6:14)? i.e., we are not to try and mix God's people with infidels.

..it's just rational thinking, logical and follows perfectly the narrative of what happened when light was mixed with darkness.
 
All through Scripture we see God's word describing the sons or children of God as believers. By contrast there is not one single instance where we read of God's word describing or informing us that angels were these sons of God. That is the difference between allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves, and privately interpreting Scripture by fables or by what we think it might mean.


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In keeping with the literal use of “sons of God” in Job, you have to believe the term refers to fallen angels who mated with the daughters of men to produce the wicked and powerful progeny that led to the extreme evil of Noah’s day.
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Actually, in keeping with the literal use of sons of God found all throughout Scripture, we have to believe that this refers to God's congregation, the children of God on earth, who in the spirit of disobedience married the unsaved daughters of men, and that produced the powerfully wicked offspring that led to the extreme evil of Noah’s day. ...just as GOD Himself told His congregation later in the law that it always would.

Ezra 9:1
  • ""..The priests and the Levites, have not Separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the canaanites, the hittites, the perizites, the Jebusites, the Amonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, the Amorites. For they have taken of their Daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the HOLY SEED have mingled themselves with the people of those lands.."

Note the error of what the sons of Israel (the Sons of God) had done here? They had done the exact same thing that we read about in Genesis chapter 6. They had desired and gone after the infidel daughters of men who lived in the nations around them. Look at the laguage there. Because it shows this was an abomination to God. God says they mingled the Holy seed. Simply put, these Sons of God were not to be yoked together with these daughters of men (unbelieving women). And that is exactly what they did.


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You can also find further support for what I am saying in 2 Peter 2:4-6,
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I don't believe so.

2nd Peter 2:4-6
  • "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
  • And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
  • And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

It may "appear" that God's word says angels, meaning supernatural beings, but actually God's word there says messengers, and of course it makes much more sense if we read it the way it was originally intended, rather than arbitrarily adding a new meaning to the Greek word. i.e., [aggelos] absolutely, undeniably means Messenger. Yes, it is sometimes translated angel "because" by extension an angel is a "messenger" of God. The word itself does not mean angel e.g.:

Luke 7:27
  • "This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."

The word messenger there (referring to John the Baptist) is the exact same word [aggelos]. I'm sure you know that John was not a angel, but he was the messenger of God. Just as the angels of the 7 churches are actually the messengers of the 7 churches and not supernatural beings from heaven. Likewise, 2nd Peter chapter 2 is a warning about the [aggelos] or messengers of God that sinned before and were cast down to hell bound in chains of Darkness reserved to judgment. In other words, they have lost their possition, their estate as messengers of light and are now in darkness awaiting their judgment at "the Last Day." These are the people of God who have sinned and "now" await judgment. But you know all this Drew because we've already goe over these verses before. Note they are in the context of other men (sons of God) in Noah's day who were also brought under judgment, and the "menb" of Sodom and Gomorrah who were also brought under God's judgment. Nothing there about Supernatural angels from heaven, it's about human messengers who were cast down, as is Revelation 12, as is the passages about Israel cast out and being blinded. It's all the very same picture.


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and also it is proved by Jude 6-7.
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Jude 1:6-7
  • "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
  • Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

This is the same scenario as 2nd Peter, God painting the exact same portrait of His people, the "messengers" of God, not remaining faithful to their first dweelling (the kingdom of God on earth), and as a result being cast out, with their eyes being blinded where they are chained in darkness reserved for judgment. Even look at the context of 2nd Peter. This language is used throughout scripture of God's people.

2nd Peter 2:17
  • "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."

Is this speaking of angels or men of the congregation that were unfaithful?

Colossians 1:13
  • "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

There are your chains of darkness, which we were delivered from, and the kingdom they have fallen from that we have been translated into.

Matthew 21:43
  • "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

And there is the kingdom of God that was taken from them, as they were cast out.

Galtians 4:30
  • "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

The Elect cannot be cast out, but the congregation that is not elect, has been, are and will be cast out.

Matthew 8:11-12
  • "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
  • But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Who are the children of the Kingdom cast out into darkness? Are they not the messengers (not angels) of God who are cast out into outer darkness reserved unto the day of Judgment. It is the people of God (not angels) that we read didn't keep their first estate, and were cast out and are now reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment?


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Tony's teaching that “the sons of God” mean believers...
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I believe from the vast and overwheming Scriptures that speak of Sons of God, it is clear that "GOD" (not Tony) uses the term to speak of believers or the people of His congregation, so I'm just following God's lead--letting the Scriptures interpret themselves as it were. a few examples:

Romans 8:14
  • ""For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are Sons of God."

Are these sons of God Angels? I think not. The sons of God or the children of God are the church, not Super Man nor Super Men or Supernatural Giants.


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Tony's teaching is like a false belief that went around that the sons of God refer to the sons of the godly line of Seth and the “daughters of men” to refer to the ungodly line of the Cainites. None of this is true. It's spiritualizing gone wild!
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1st John 3:1
  • "Behold, what manner of Love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the Sons of God:..."

Is God's Holy word false? Is this truth as written in the "ultimate authority" of God's infallible word of what God means by the term, or is man's denials of it our authority?

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

ZeroCool

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Re: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 10:42:47 AM »
 &TY  :God:Bl-U:

Rupert

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Re: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 09:39:47 AM »
So Judgmental Alexandra. But Drew is correct in his understanding of the sons of God as angels, which as he proved even the Reformed teachers agree. Satan was kicked out of heaven in the war with Michael, the archangel.

I once thought that about Michael, Satan and the angels too George, but then I read the study of Revelation chapter 12 and my eyes were opened to a whole different perspective of Revelation as a book of great symbolism. Now I'm wondering why I couldn't see all the symbolism in Revelation before, since it's now so obvious to me that it is symbolic heaven. I feel like I was reading it before, but not really listening to what I was reading. I would encourage you and all Christians to look at this chapter with an open mind, rather just denying its symbolism.


Reformer

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Re: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 07:25:57 PM »
Rupert,
I can vouch for the fact that it's easier to learn something, than it is to unlearn what you've learned. I'd say twice as hard, at least.

Melanie

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Re: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2017, 01:28:45 PM »
it's easier to learn something, than it is to unlearn what you've learned.

 :ditto:  :iagree:

Kevin Wright

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Re: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God
« Reply #20 on: Today at 03:45:20 PM »

2nd Peter 2:4-6
  • "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
  • And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
  • And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

It may "appear" that God's word says angels, meaning supernatural beings, but actually God's word there says messengers, and of course it makes much more sense if we read it the way it was originally intended, rather than arbitrarily adding a new meaning to the Greek word. i.e., [aggelos] absolutely, undeniably means Messenger.

Hi,
    I understand what you guys are saying, but who were the messengers that sinned and were cast down and blinded? Israel?
 :anyone:

 


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