[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Who Is The Man of Sin?  (Read 17262 times)

Peng Bao

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
  • Gender: Male
Who Is The Man of Sin?
« on: August 31, 2003, 03:39:10 AM »
I find all this discussion of Antichrist being a spirit interesting considering that it is a great departure from the historic Reformed Protestant view of Antichrist.

With that in mind, is there anyone here who takes the historic view that the Antichrist is the Papal system? If not, why not? What makes all these great reformers wrong about this?

John

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
  • Gender: Male
  • A man with God is always in the majority-John Knox
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2003, 12:48:26 AM »
Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many—whence we know that it is the last hour   1John 2:18

Who is the liar, except he who is denying that Jesus is the Christ? this one is the antichrist who is denying the Father and the Son 1John 2:22

and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already 1John 4:3.

For many deceivers have gone forth into the world who do not confess Jesus as the Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist 2John 1:7


With that in mind, is there anyone here who takes the historic view that the Antichrist is the Papal system? If not, why not? What makes all these great reformers wrong about this?

John wrote his epistle around 90AD, at which time he wrote of antichrist "you have heard that he is coming, and now is already in the world". Already in the world? When did the first Pope arise? Was it not until the Edict of Milan in the year 313AD that Emperor Constantine, after he defeated Maxentius at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, declare Christianity the legal and favored religion of Rome. Any claim of Popes as antichrist in the church of Rome must logically not have ocurred for some 220 years after John said that antichrist "now is already in the world". Therefore, the Pope cannot be the only antichrist.

Yet, there were antichrists at the time of John, many in fact. Sects arose denying "that Jesus is the Christ" and denying the "Father and the Son". These were the "deceivers"  who have "gone forth into the world who do not confess Jesus as the Christ coming in the flesh".

... out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but—that they might be manifested that they are not all of us. 1John 2:19

They existed in John's day and they exist today -- deceivers who oppose Christ and His church. The Pope is only one example of such deception.


john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Dutch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2003, 05:22:05 PM »
The Reformation doctrine of Rome as the Antichrist is a false doctrine. Rome is not the Antichrist anymore than Israel is. There are those who think that everything the Reformers did was correct, but this also proves that the Reformers were not infallible and did hold to some false ideas.

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Gender: Female
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2003, 11:53:55 PM »
These passages (which include those presented earlier by john) deal directly with antichrist.(although there are many other related passages that deal with false prophets and teachers):

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. …
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 7, 9
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. …
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:18-19, 21-23
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. …
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matt 24:24 (and Mark 13:22)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Peter 2:1-2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


Scriptures make it clear that there have been many antichrists, then and now – which encompass the period after the cross referred to as ‘the last days'.  So antichrist, is not a single person, but anyone who, (letting the Bible define its own terms), meets the following critieria:

1. a spirit that is not of God

2. a spirit that speaks lies/deception vs. the truth

3. a spirit that speaks things of the world vs. things of God

4. a spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

5. a spirit that  transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ

6. a spirit that denieth the Father and the Son (are one  - John 10:3,  17:22; 1 John 5:7, etc.).

7. a spirit that shows great  ‘signs and wonders’, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  There signs are wonders are also lies (1 King 22:23; 2 Chron 18:22; Ps 109:2;  Is 32:6-7, 59:13, etc.)

8. a  spirit  within the ‘church’ (“went out from us, but they were not of us”) who speaks lies in name of God (Jer 29:23; Ezek 13:6-7, 19;  Jonah 2:8; etc.)

I think these Scriptures sum it up well, as  they encomposes much of these:

2 Thess 2:5-12
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


So, I think we can conclude that the spirit of antichrist can exist in any church, regardless of denomination,  and will become more the norm rather than the exception, once God releases Satan from the bounds placed upon him at the cross.  As for national Isreal, they are quite open in their denial of Christ as Lord, and most certainly qualify.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Harold

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2003, 11:10:56 AM »
To be fair, the Reformers spoke of Rome being the "Antichrist System" not that the Pope was Antichrist incarnate. An argument can be made that they were right.


Oneil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2003, 12:53:22 PM »
To be fair, the reformers spoke of Rome being the "Antichrist System" not that the Pope was antichrist incarnate. An argument can be made that they were right.


 2 Thess 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Barry Gritters, respected Calvinist author and theologian makes the claim that the Antichrist is both an individual person, and a political power. Is this the general Calvinist view?


Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2072
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2003, 01:38:13 PM »
>>>
2 Thess 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Barry Gritters, respected Calvinist author and theologian makes the claim that the Antichrist is both an individual person, and a political power. Is this the general Calvinist view?
<<<

As far as I'm concerned, you'd have to go ask a Calvinist that. Calvinists do sometimes tend to follow "tradition" as to what the Reformers believed about Rome and the papal system. But as for myself  (not being Calvinist, but a Christian of the Reformed faith), I can only tell you that it is not the "Biblical" view. The Antichrist is neither one single individual person, nor a political entity, nor the Pope, nor the Papal system. Antichrist is the spirit that was in the world long before the Papal system existed. ...Obviously! According to scripture it is the spirit of Satan.

1st John 4:3
  • "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

It is abundantly clear from the mouth of God that Antichrist is a spirit and was in the world when the Apostle John was inspired to pen this passage, and is in the world now. The only spirit that would qualify is the spirit being Satan. Why some Christians cling to the church convention and customs of Antichrist being the Papal system, a single man, or a political power, has more to do with following tradition and interpretations of men, than with sound exegesis of the texts.

As for the 2nd Thessalonians verse, the man of sin is merely descriptive, just as I would say, "Christ came that the man of God would be revealed." It doesn't mean there is just one man of God, it means the man of God is revealed in Christ. Each one of us with the Spirit of God is "the man of God!" The righteous man. By that same token, each one with the spirit of Satan is the man of sin (lawlessness).

2nd Timothy 3:16
  • "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
  • That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

This doesn't mean there is one singular "Man of God," rather it is descriptive of the man who is righteous. Likewise, the man of sin coming is descriptive of sinful man who will be revealed (or uncovered) at this later time to rule as the "authority" in God's house. In other words, to rule in lawlessness in place of God. i.e., he rules by the spirit of Antichrist, which means the substitute or false Christ. For more about this, here is a link to a Biblical study of 2nd Thessalonians 2.

 http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/2ndthess.html

nosce te ipsum"
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Kenneth White

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Gender: Male
  • Thinking Christians, Intelligent Theology
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2003, 06:34:51 AM »
Barry Gritters, respected Calvinist author and theologian makes the claim that the Antichrist is both an individual person, and a political power. Is this the general Calvinist view?

Barry Griiters is an excellent reformed author. I have enjoyed many of his fine works. But on this particular issue, he is in error. Nobody is perfect. But he's not alone. You will find a lot of that type belief around the Reformed community regarding the identity of the Antichrist. I think Tony Warren is right, there is a lot of "Papal system fighting" church tradition responsible for this. You have to keep in mind the times in which they lived, and that Rome was overbearing. They were naturally inclined to think because the Pope or Papal system was Antichrist-like, that this was Antichrist. And yes, the Papal system is of the spirit of Antichrist. And there are many Antichrists. So in a way, they are partly right. But we cannot say it actually is the Antichrist. Because that is Satan, a spirit.

I wondered about this issue for a while, and decided that eschatology is not a subject which has been covered very well by most in the Reformed church. Perhaps because God hadn't opened it up to understanding when the Reformed patriots were writing, or because we spend so much time defending predestination and sovereignty that we have neglected this issue to some degree.  I know many otherwise biblical thinkers believe that it's not that important an issue, so place it on the back burner as something to sort out or study.

But don't let that dissuade you from Mr Gritters writings. He is an excellent and usually accurate author.

Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Frank Mortimer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2003, 07:52:49 AM »
Amen Tony and Kenneth. I have noticed that most reformed sites simply defend almost every reformed author blindly. So it's refreshing to see Christians who have a mind of their own and don't just blindly follow church tradition about this. I got in an argument about this last year with someone telling me I wasn't reformed if I didn't adhere to these doctrines.

Having come out of the catholic church many years ago, I know a little about blindly following church traditions.  ;)

I was always uncomfortable with the Papal system interpretation, it just never seemed to completely fit, even though I could see how the pope was making himself God. The scripture that convinced me is when God said who the Antichrist was, and also said there were many of them. And the point just made that the Antichrist was before there ever was a Papal system just clinches it.

You both make good points.

Sue Landow

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
  • Gender: Female
  • Distributing to the saints & given to Hospitality.
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2003, 12:52:57 PM »
OK guys, just for your general information.

Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of the Westminster Confession to change reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of the Westminster Confession to change reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.

Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of Westminster Confession to change reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.

Presbyterian Church U.S.A (PCUSA) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of Westminster Confession to change reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.

So everyone is not just blindly sticking to tradition.

"And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened". Luke 13:20-21

Layla

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2004, 09:52:01 PM »
Greetings

I believe the following is a quote from Tony Warren's study concerning "anti-christ":

He who is in the midst of the church who restrains, is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ is taken out of the churches, then the Spirit is no longer there.

Tony obviously is referring to:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

My question is, are there any other scriptures stating that the Spirit of Christ is removed from the Churches? 

Thanks in advance,
Layla

bloodstone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2004, 07:02:21 AM »
 Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 Mark 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

 John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

After the great tribulation where the saints are persecuted in the Churches, Christ is removed and the Church falls.

Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2221
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2004, 12:00:29 PM »
Quote
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

After the great tribulation where the saints are persecuted in the Churches, Christ is removed and the Church falls.

Hi bloodstone,

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Great Tribulation will be a short period when there will be no more elect being saved after God have sealed all of his people (Rev 7:3).

Then we read in...


Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Bloodstone, you suggested that the darkening of the Sun, Moon will occur immediately after the tribulation (Great Tribulation?), but is not Second Coming yet, because the darkening of the Sun Moon is a period when God will pour judgement upon Babylon the Whore (corporate church) for a while until His Coming?

Can you or anyone please clarify about this?

Erik Diamond




"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

bloodstone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2004, 05:39:00 AM »
Quote
The Great Tribulation will be a short period when there will be no more elect being saved after God have sealed all of his people (Rev 7:3).

I do not believe that this is accurate. I believe that the start of the great tribulation period is the time when the obedient Christians are persecuted in the Churches because of their faithfulness, but the end is not yet. And the time when the witnesses are revived to come out of Jerusalem is the hour when Babylon falls. It is the time of darkness when no man can work.


Shirley

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
  • Gender: Female
  • The Spirit of Christ
Re: Who Is The Man of Sin?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2004, 06:58:08 AM »
I find this all interesting considering that it is a great departure from the historic Reformed Protestant view of Antichrist.

With that in mind, is there anyone here who takes the historic view that the Antichrist is the Papal system? If not, why not? What makes all these great reformers wrong about this?



Who says that they were? Writing in 1556 in his commentary on 1st John, John Calvin said this,

Under the Papacy there is nothing more well known and common than the future coming of Antichrist, The Papists have imagined an Antichrist who is to harass the church for three and a half years. All the marks by which the Spirit of God has pointed out Antichrist appear clearly in the Pope; but their triennial Antichrist has such a hold on the foolish Papists that seeing they do not see.

Until recently, most all Protestants held to the Reformation teaching, but since then considerable divergence of opinion has occurred. Nothing has changed in the Roman Catholic Church since then, so why should we?


 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]