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Author Topic: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel  (Read 8383 times)

Halle

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2013, 03:38:11 AM »
This is the teaching of the Jehovah Witnesses, so I'm not sure that I can get on board with this. Why would we jump from what it says, Michael is an Angel, to Michael is Christ? Were the translators in error?

Rose

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2013, 10:17:35 AM »
This is the teaching of the Jehovah Witnesses, so I'm not sure that I can get on board with this. Why would we jump from what it says, Michael is an Angel, to Michael is Christ? Were the translators in error?

Yeah, I can't agree with that either. And the Pastor at my Church says that the head angel that replaced Lucifer when he was kicked out of heaven was Michael. Michael is a created being, not Christ. He is commander of all the angelic hosts and the chief messenger to humankind.

"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys." - S.O.S. 2:1

Erik Diamond

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2013, 11:53:33 AM »
Yeah, I can't agree with that either. And the Pastor at my Church says that the head angel that replaced Lucifer when he was kicked out of heaven was Michael. Michael is a created being, not Christ. He is commander of all the angelic hosts and the chief messenger to humankind.

That is why you should always examine (test) your pastor's doctrines with Scripture to see if its true. Have you checked with your Scripture instead of believe everything what your pastor says.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

John

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2013, 07:57:16 PM »
Quote
And the Pastor at my Church says that the head angel that replaced Lucifer when he was kicked out of heaven was Michael.

That is a pastor trying to make a story to explain a text he doesn't understand. Michael is the chief messenger - which is the translation of Archangel. Michael is a reference to Christ, who is God. The Chief Messenger of the Covenant is Christ. The Jehovah Witness teaching is that Michael is an angel. Many people hear that the Bible teaches that Michael is Christ and then conflate this with the Jehovah Witness false doctrine and arrive at the false idea that someone is saying that Christ is an angel. Which would be incorrect. Christ is God, Michael is Christ (not an angel).
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Fred

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 01:12:39 PM »

That is a pastor trying to make a story to explain a text he doesn't understand.

The fact is, no angel, in any sense of the word, was ever told "You are my Son, today I have begotten you". If that is correct, the Michael is not Christ. Then clearly you have a problem.

George

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 02:57:27 PM »
Here is what the Jewish People say, which should carry more weight than just those who cannot even read the Hebrew, much less understand it.


The Jews, after the exile, distinguished several orders of angels; some reckoned four angels (according to the four sides of God's throne) of the highest rank; but the majority reckoned seven (after the pattern of the seven Amshaspands, the highest spirits of the religion of Zoroaster).

You can read more about these orders of angels and their names in the Ancient pseudepigraphic book of Enoch, which was written during the time the Jews were exiled in Babylon. Wonder why this book was never canonized in any Christian Bible? Because it's mythology.

The 1st century Biblical authors were well aware of the book of Enoch, because it was taught to them by their culture's religious leaders. Doesn't mean that they believed in these mythological angels named in the book of Enoch or by Zoroaster, but they did use the term archangel to describe symbolic power.

So Michael the archangel is nothing more then a symbolic term, for a symbolic warrior of God, not a literal being.

According to the people who wrote Daniel.

James Heckman

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2013, 05:42:34 PM »
Michael is Christ (not an angel).

Well, to be honest, this is the only place I hear this teaching, besides Jehovah Witnesses. I don't hear any Reformed or biblical theologians teaching it.

Tony Warren

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2013, 05:51:37 AM »
>>>
This is the teaching of the Jehovah Witnesses, so I'm not sure that I can get on board with this.
<<<

Halle,
   This is not the teaching of the Jehovah Witnesses. They teach that Michael is Christ, and Christ is not God, but an angel. Totally different View. The scriptures teach and we affirm, that Michael is the Chief Messenger Christ (Not an Angel), and Christ "is" God.

But even if they did teach the same thing, their teaching could not negate something that is very true. For example, the belief that the scriptures are God breathed and that there is one God is also a teaching of the Jehovah Witnesses. Does that make it not true? The belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and we're living in the Millennial reign now is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. But that doesn't mean those teachings are not true. The Devil mixes lies with the truth, but that doesn't make the truths that he uttered are untrue.  My only point being, what any religious group believes, or doesn't believe, should in no way influence what we believe. Our beliefs should come directly from the scriptures. Never from considering if any other group does or does not hold to them.

Luke 5:21
  • "And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"

Only God can forgive sins was a teaching of the Scribes and Pharisees, are you sure you can get on board with this, since they were obviously antichrist? But you have to, because the belief that "only God can forgive sins" against Him is true. Again, we cannot base our beliefs on what others believe. We must be Berean-like to search the scriptures to see if it is true.


Quote
>>>
Why would we jump from what it says, Michael is an Angel, to Michael is Christ?
<<<

It's a long standing "myth" that what it says is angel. What it really says is "Messenger." Yes, the actual Greek word is often translated angel. But in fact there is no word angel in Hebrew, angel is an English word by way of Latin/Greek. It didn't even exist in the Old Testament texts. The Hebrew word is [malak] meaning messenger. But you will read the word "angel" in the old testament Bible today only because that's the English/Latin/Greek translation by man "assuming" a created heavenly spiritual being. And assumption is the mother of errors.

So it's not really a jump at all. Would it surprise you if I told you that Michael being Christ (not an angel) was the view of the early Church, and it was only after Pope Gregory (who held this view of it being an arch-angel) became popular that later theologians ran with his alternative view and it came to the Reformed Church through those who left the Catholic Church.

That is because what it LITERALLY says is Michael the Chief Messenger. It is the translation that people think means Arch-Angel. And as I've stated before, both the Hebrew word [malak] and the Greek word [aggelos] are the literal words meaning Messenger. They are often "both" translated Angel because Angels "are" Messengers, but NOT because Messengers are Angels. There is a difference!  That's an important distinction. They (and we) must determine if an angel or messenger is in view by the context. Because there is no difference in the words themselves. e.g.:

Malachi 3:1
  • "Behold, I will send my Messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

This Messenger of the Covenant might be translated the Angel of the Covenant, but it isn't only because it is so obviously Christ. The translators made a judgment call. But it is the exact same word translated Angel. So there is no jump from Christ being the Messenger, since scripture tells us that He is the [malak] of the Covenant. And He's "NOT" an Angel. And as the Messenger, Christ can only be the chief, head or [arch] Messenger.


Quote
>>>
Were the translators in error?
<<<

Yes, of course they were ...what? Did you really think that translators never make errors? It is the original that is inerrant, not the translations of the originals. Why do you think there is the NIV translaton? It is because "translators make grievous errors," and they did so in creating the NIV. Checking the original is how we know the word is actually Messenger, not angel. Because we have the Hebrew and Greek copies that we can check. Often we read of an Angel of the Lord appearing, and these are decidedly not angels. They are God Himself coming with a message. Theologians call these Theophanies, but they are no different from Michael the Messenger of the Lord. The name or title Michael itself also bears testimony to this. Michael means "Who is certainly or assuredly God."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
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Tony Warren
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James Heckman

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2013, 06:45:20 AM »

The Reformed view is that this is not Christ. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression.

Deuce Johnson

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2013, 09:46:02 AM »

The Reformed view is that this is not Christ. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression.

OK, but who made you arbiter of what is the Reformed view? Because that's not my view and I am Reformed.

Stan Pat

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2013, 11:13:08 AM »
Hi,

Have you checked with the following article on Archangel Michael wrote by Tony Warren?

http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/michael.html

Erik


 I loved the article about Michael the Archangel being Christ. Very enlightening to say the least. I searched the web and unbelievably, this was the only article I could find from a Biblical source (If anyone knows of any others not JW, let me know for my research). Well done Tony! What was a solid point to me was that he is called the Prince of the Church and this occurred at the time of trouble like none other.

Daniel 12:1
 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book".

The fact that Michael is called the great Prince of Daniel's people who stands up for them, from my point of view, that can only be Christ. And also in that context it references the time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Matthew 24:21
 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be".

Clearly it is not an Angel standing here for the people, but Christ. Also Revelation chapter 12 just  puts the cherry on top.


Reformer

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2013, 12:22:21 AM »

The Reformed view is that this is not Christ. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression.

No offense meant, but not that who you think is Reformed and what their views should be matters in the big scheme of things, and not to place any required biblical undergirding from Reformed authors (as some obviously do), but just so we all understand that this is not a view that is unorthodox non-Reformed or from heretics, here are just a few quotes from Reformed authors.

Here's a quote from John Calvin:

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this (Michael) to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people."
- John Calvin, Commentaries on the Book of the Prophet Daniel,
trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

And here's what Charles Spurgeon said:

Morning Devotion:
"Let the Lord Jesus Christ be for ever endeared to us, for through Him we are made to sit in heavenly places far above principalities and powers. He it is whose camp is round about them that fear Him; He is the true Michael whose foot is upon the dragon. All hail, Jesus! thou Angel of Jehovah’s presence, to Thee this family offers its morning vows." [Charles Spurgeon; Morning and Evening Daily Readings; October 3 on Hebrews 1:14]

Evening Devotion:
"Michael will always fight; his holy soul is vexed with sin, and will not endure it. Jesus will always be the dragon’s foe, and that not in a quiet sense, but actively, vigorously, with full determination to exterminate evil." [Charles Spurgeon; Morning and Evening Daily Readings; November 30 on Revelaton 12:7] - Spurgeon's Morning and Evening

Now back to placing more weight on what the Bible says, rather than men.

bloodstone

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2013, 05:25:17 AM »
To add to what Reformer said, Here is John Gill's Commentary on these Passages.

John Gill Commentary on Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, &c.] The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God, as the name signifies, truly and really God, and equal in nature, power, and glory, to his divine Father. . . .

John Gill Commentary on Daniel 12:1-3
Another prophecy in Dan. xii. 1, 2, 3. represents the second and personal coming of Christ ; for he is meant by Michael, who is as God, as his name signifies, equal to him ; the great prince, the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers. (A Complete Body of Practical and Doctrinal Divinity, The Baptist Standard Bearer, 1987 reprint, p. 617.)

John Gill Commentary on Jude 9:
Yet Michael the archangel, &c.] By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan. 10:21, 12:1; Rev. 12:7. So Philo the Jew {o} calls the most ancient Word, firstborn of God, the archangel. . . .

John Gill Commentary on Revelation 12:7
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: by whom is meant not a created angel, with whom his name does not agree, it signifying "who is as God"; nor does it appear that there is anyone created angel that presides over the rest, and has them at his command. . . .

Bruno Kolberg

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2013, 08:14:11 AM »
And Ernst W. Hengstenberg, The Revelation of St John (Clark’s Foreign Theological Library, Vol. 22; Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1851), 1:464–69, linked below:

http://www.redatedkings.com/download/Michael.pdf

See also George Douglas, “Michael,” in The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (ed. Patrick Fairbairn; 2 vols.; London: Blackie and Son, 1866), 2:234–37.

Stan Pat

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2013, 08:51:17 AM »

Thanks Bruno, it's so hard for me to find such papers when I do a search.

 


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