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Author Topic: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel  (Read 8381 times)

ccrider

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Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« on: June 10, 2010, 01:43:16 PM »
I was recently invited to a bible study on eschatology.  Little did I know, or at least I should have known, that it was a pre-millenial study.  In short, the study was reckless and borderline ridiculous.  My question is this, "Has anyone on this forum ever been confronted by a pre-millenarian when one tries to make the point that the arch-angel Michael is actually Christ?"  By this I mean I was reprimanded by the teacher in front of the whole study that I was trying to purport something the Jehovah Witnesses believe.  The teacher or should I say lack thereof, shut me down and took me on from that point forward as an imposter - a person sown in by the enemy.  His logic of accusation did not make sense in the reality that attaching Christ to the arch-angel does NOT "pull down" Christ to something created.  In my logic, it is the very opposite.  To not attach Christ to the arch-angel Michael is to say that Michael, being Christ is created.  It is saying that Christ is created by not affirming Michael as Christ.  Some feedback would be great on this, as the scenario was disturbing and yet quite expected.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 01:50:25 PM »
Hi,

Have you checked with the following article on Archangel Michael wrote by Tony Warren?

http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/michael.html

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Hammerle Labinowic

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 02:36:03 PM »
In 99 out of 100 cases, you will never be able to have an intelligent dialogue with a Premillennnial proponent without it deteriorating into charges and accusations, because you are of two different belief systems. Even professional debates between learned theologians (the few that I have known of) have deteriorated and usually ended badly. I think this should be expected, because Premillennialists (especially the Dispensational variety)  are as different from Amillennialists as night and day. They live in this dream world where interpretations are man made, rather than God breathed. And though many Christians will deny this, this is the truth.

There is only one doctrine of the Kingdom that is the truth of Christ, and it is not that Christ reigns 1000 years on earth, or the hundreds of private interpretations of prophesy added to this foundational error. That makes this a false doctrine of the Kingdom. Sad to say, it io therefore not of Christ.

What you don't understand is that when you presented the truth, you automatically became the enemy to those who oppose it. You're looking at this as if you are Christian friends, when you are the enemy to them once you present truth. In that sense, they may understand the situation better than you.


Reformer

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 06:57:44 PM »
Actually a lot of Christians don't believe that Michael is Christ, both good and bad Christians. Mainly because the Jehovah's Witnesses are so famous for teaching this, they reject it out of hand without serious consideration. That is their big mistake. Christ is the Arch Messenger Michael. Some Christians are simply set in their traditions, beliefs and prejudices.

As for Premillennialism, I agree with Hammerle that it is "another gospel". But of course, we are in the minority, because most Christians (probably yourself included) believe that we are all of the same camp, we simply have a non essential disagreement. I don't agree with that view. So I would also have "expected" what you received from the Premillennialists.

I would separate myself from them. But that's just me. :)


John

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2010, 07:52:23 PM »
If Premillennialism is a ridiculous, sometimes comical, but utterly convoluted teaching contradicting plain Scripture at every turn - and it is, why would anyone holding firm to such worthless nonsense allow their personal house of cards to be destroyed by an outsider (since only the slightest effort, and the thing is dashed to pieces).

It isn't a teaching that survives scrutiny - it is perpetuated because of the rampant ignorance and spiritual blindness of Christians, or those so-called. Fundamentally, the teaching is an insult to God. It shows, at the least, manifest carelessness with Scripture, and for most devout students of Premil teaching, it belies a contemptuousness of truth, as they cling dearly to their contradictory private interpretations.

Unless they invite you to explain your position, or in some other way are looking to buy truth instead of sell lies - I'd leave them to be the blind leaders of the blind that they are.

john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

David Knoles

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2010, 11:03:05 PM »
If Premillennialism is a ridiculous, sometimes comical, but utterly convoluted teaching contradicting plain Scripture at every turn

john


Really? OK John, please answer this. If Christ was Michael, why did he not dare 'bring against [the devil] a railing accusation?

"But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against [him], but said, [The] Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9

You are one who accepts scripture I assume. Does that not prove that Michael is not the Lord, Christ. Because Michael spoke of the Lord as another, and Christ did rebuke the demons and devils. Which Michael did not. Or am I wrong? Please explain how this is ridiculous?






Erik Diamond

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2010, 11:15:45 PM »
Quote
Does that not prove that Michael is not the Lord, Christ. Because Michael spoke of the Lord as another, and Christ did rebuke the demons and devils. Which Michael did not. Or am I wrong? Please explain how this is ridiculous?

Do you know what is ridiculous is that you did not even bother to research with the rest of Scripture for consideration.  For example:

Zechariah 3:1-3

  • And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
  • And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Wasn't Satan stood at the right hand of Christ to contend with Him and "The Lord" said to satan, "The Lord" rebuke thee."  Does it means he is not the Lord Himself?  Selah!

So what is there to debate? Jesus clearly being called the Lord, and then clearly saying, "The Lord rebuke thee."  

Do you even know why Satan contended with Christ (Archangel Michael) over the body of Moses, by the way?

Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Dustin

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2010, 11:14:25 AM »
Really? OK John, please answer this. If Christ was Michael, why did he not dare 'bring against [the devil] a railing accusation?

"But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against [him], but said, [The] Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9

You are one who accepts scripture I assume. Does that not prove that Michael is not the Lord, Christ. Because Michael spoke of the Lord as another, and Christ did rebuke the demons and devils. Which Michael did not. Or am I wrong? Please explain how this is ridiculous?


That is a good question guys. Let's not all be so quick to jump up and dismiss questions out of hand, as our adversaries constantly do. Because others may need these questions answered too. Michael didn't rebuke Satan, but Christ did. Why? Good question. John can you answer that?


Erik Diamond

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2010, 11:56:37 AM »
Quote
Let's not all be so quick to jump up and dismiss questions out of hand, as our adversaries constantly do. Because others may need these questions answered too. Michael didn't rebuke Satan, but Christ did. Why? Good question. John can you answer that?

We do not dismiss questions out of hand. It is those who do not RECEIVE the Word of God that we testify. For example, Tony Warren explained in his study, "Is Jesus the Archangel Michael?":

---------------------------------------------

Jude 1:9

    * "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee".

In one passage of scripture we see Michael and His army at war with the Devil and his army, but here we see him in dispute about the body of Moses, not wanting to judge for his accusations. Is there a contradiction? No, because God is painting spiritual pictures by using this language. There is no angel which has the power to contend with Satan. Satan is ruler of this world, the strong one who held the world in bondage with a heavy hand. The only Messenger who could contend with him and ransome then from his hand is Christ! Once Satan was defeated by the death of Christ, they then rule over him "through" Christ. Christ is the one who contended with the Devil about the body of Moses.

The "body of Moses" is signifying the body of the law under which the congregation was burdened, and which "only" Christ could be the help. Under the New Covenant with God, we are no longer burdened for Christ keeps the law for us perfectly, that we no longer sit condemned under. When God speaks of the scriptures, He often uses the phrase or term, "Moses and the Prophets" or "the law of Moses" or the "commandments of Moses". Of course we know that it's not Moses' law or his commands, it's God's law. But God uses these terms as a synonym for the law of God under which we sit condemned under the Old Testament (the body of Moses). A few examples:

1st Corinthians 9:9

    * "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?"

This language is a synonym for the law of God, the scriptures. For Moses was the Old Testament "type" of Christ, and his body would be the Congregation under law, made like unto Christ as a "shadow" of things to come. We can see this as it speaks of the "angel of God" on the mountain.

Acts 7:37-38

    * "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

    * This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: "

Again, Christ, the angel or messenger which spake to Moses on the Mountain. And He who God raised up like unto Moses, is Christ, the fulfilment of the "type". Him shall the people hear! Moses, and the law of Moses, is being pictured as the word or the law of God which man is under. But it is only in Christ that we can keep the law and will hear Him! Not in the body of Moses (the law) but in the body of Christ (Grace, or not under law).

2nd Corinthians 3:15

    * "But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart".

God uses the language "when Moses is read" to signify the law or the Word. Even when Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man in Hell, when the Rich man said he wanted to go back to warn his brethren about the horrors of Hell, it was said to him, "they have Moses and the prophets (the law of the scriptures), let them hear it". But the rich man protested still that they needed more and would believe if one rose from the dead to tell them. To which the Lord put forth the illustration..

Luke 16:31


    * "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead".

God again is signifying here that if one won't listen to the law, they won't listen to Christ who rose from the dead. That's the Spiritual truth put forth here. And God is using Moses as this synonym for the law of God. Before Jesus was Crucified, we see Moses and Elijah come to him (again, a picture of the WITNESS of the law and the prophets). Revelation chapter 11, again the two witnesses, a picture that the Church bringing the witness of the law and the prophets. These are all spiritual significations. But Christ came to fulfill the law that the Body of Moses, (God's people under law) could be set free from the law. As Christ said,

Matthew 5:17


    * "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

The law of Moses stands, it's just that it is fulfilled or in other words, kept fully in Christ. In that sense, the law has ended for God's people. That is the dispute of the Devil with Michael! Satan uses the law to accuse us (for we are all transgressors of the law), but Christ foiled his plans.

Romans 10:4-5

    * "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

    * For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them".

The Body of Moses is the law which the Old Testament saints couldn't keep anymore than we can. Satan accuses them (and us) by the law. Christ opened not His mouth (as a lamb is dumb before the slaughter) as He went to the cross because He stood laden with our sins, being our help, and was therefore guilty in the real sense. As Isaiah 53 says, God saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied with the payment. He paid the price for us, and delivered the body of Moses from death! We are now free from the condemnation of the law.

In Jude 9 when Michael (who assuredly is God the ruling Messenger) contends with the devil, He disputed about the body of Moses because it was war. Christ went forth conquering and he by the Power of God cast Satan (the great accuser) out and spoiled his kingdom of us. He set us Free! And God says, if this be true, then the Kingdom of God had come. Michael did cast out satan by the power of God, and so the kingdom of God "had" come. Israel had been delivered. Satan had nothing to accuse us with the law anymore.

Matthew 12:26-29

    * "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

    * And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

    * But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    * Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house".

This is the dispute with Satan about the body of the law. He went to the cross willingly and opened not His mouth. He didn't bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke thee." ..why? Because He was guilty, numbered with the transgressors for us. Laden with our sins He willingly went to the cross to atone for the transgressions of the law which we have broken. He couldn't say, "wrong Satan, the law doesn't condemn", because it did. Rather than accuse as Satan does, He assigned Satan's judgment (for every unrighteous thought is judged) unto the father, and went as a lamb to the slaughter to pay the price for the sin that He had become, for us.

2nd Corinthians 5:21

    * "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".

And being guilty with our sin, He suffered the wrath of God. He brought not accusation because though He was without sin, yet He carried our sins to the cross with him, thus satan's judgment would not be argued by the guilty, but by the raised Christ, in Righteousness.

------------------------------------

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Herman Stowe

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 12:31:57 PM »
But Christ came to fulfill the law that the Body of Moses, (God's people under law) could be set free from the law. As Christ said,

Matthew 5:17


    * "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

The law of Moses stands, it's just that it is fulfilled or in other words, kept fully in Christ. In that sense, the law has ended for God's people. That is the dispute of the Devil with Michael! Satan uses the law to accuse us (for we are all transgressors of the law), but Christ foiled his plans.

Romans 10:4-5

    * "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

    * For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them".

The Body of Moses is the law which the Old Testament saints couldn't keep anymore than we can. Satan accuses them (and us) by the law. Christ opened not His mouth (as a lamb is dumb before the slaughter) as He went to the cross because He stood laden with our sins,


BRILLIANT! So then, Christ couldn't bring railing accusation against Satan because they were all indeed guilty, and He had to go to the cross to make restitution for their guilt. He couldn't righteously rebuke Satan about the body of moses then, but God would when justice was made.

 Colossians 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Even as he delivered Daniel from the power of the Lion.

  Hebrews 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 Hallelujah!  It all falls into place. the Arch Angel Michael who was God, and took on the flesh of man, that he might thwart the Devils accusations. I Love it!




Herman Stowe

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 12:35:12 PM »
The same reason he spoke no defense at His trial or inquiry before Pilate. Because He was guilty, laden with our sins, and had to pay the price. And the wages of sin is death. What was He to dispute about. The Accusations about the body of Moses was true. Sin must be accounted for.

  I Love The Bible!


Erik Diamond

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2010, 12:54:37 PM »
Quote
BRILLIANT! So then, Christ couldn't bring railing accusation against Satan because they were all indeed guilty, and He had to go to the cross to make restitution for their guilt. He couldn't righteously rebuke Satan about the body of moses then, but God would when justice was made.

The same reason he spoke no defense at His trial or inquiry before Pilate. Because He was guilty, laden with our sins, and had to pay the price. And thew wages of sin is death. What was He to dispute about.

  I Love The Bible!

Amen!

Joh 18:37-38
  • Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
  • Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Jesus did not response for same reason. Satan should not know the TRUTH BEFORE Christ went to the cross on our behalf.

Archangel Michael is just another name assigned for Christ since He is our Helper and Guardian. We, too, are Daniel's people.... IN CHRIST!  

Dan 12:1-2
  • And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
  • And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1Th 4:15-17
  • For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
  • For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  • Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Archangel Michael is the One who stands for HIS PEOPLE, Israel.  He is God that only can raise the dead with the Voice of Archangel, 1Th 4:15-17.  The same voice heard upon Mount Sinai!  Sadly, many people does not see this way.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

John

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2010, 11:21:30 PM »
Quote
Hallelujah!  It all falls into place. the Arch Angel Michael who was God, and took on the flesh of man, that he might thwart the Devils accusations. I Love it!

I Love The Bible!

Herman, that is the reaction of all those who know and love truth!

Indeed, the Bible fits together so marvelously that at times our only reaction is a stunned amazement at the wisdom and power of God.

Then we have dispensational premillennialism, which would insist there is nothing of the NT Church related through OT prophecy, because the NT Church is a 'parenthesis' in God's salvation plan for Israel.

Thus, we have a plain example in Michael who is Christ - disputing over the 'Body of Moses' - all related to God's salvation plan for His New Covenant. This is denied by the diehard dispensationalist since their major tenet is that Old Testament prophecies do not relate to the NT Church but only to the Jews. Oh, the folly of their stubborn refusal to see their dark error.

Consider the error of the Roman Catholic arguing that Mary is a perpetual virgin. They deny the plain record of Jesusí brothers: James, Joses, Simon and Jude and of His sisters. They seek special pleadings and tap dance in a shameless attempt to nullify the text. And for what reason? Because, essentially Roman Catholicism is a goddess cult - and the cultists require a perpetual virgin to deify and worship. Where does all their error lead, what is the objective? To the enthronement of Mary as a co-ruling Mother god.

Rather than back away from their error in shame, the Roman Catholic runs headlong in it - blasphemously declaring Mary to be the Queen of Heaven and wife of Yahweh, that is, God the Father.  Likewise, there is so much foolishness in the dispensationalist, that upon listening to their denial of plain truth, you are tempted to put them in the camp of the theologically insane, if only out of pity.

But, on the flip side, when the Bible is allowed to speak, and truth is sought like spiritual gold, as is the theological case here with Michael - there is a melodious harmony; for those whose ears are attuned to notice - it is beautiful music.

john
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ccrider

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2010, 11:20:58 AM »
Eric, Reformer, and the rest of the Children of Promise,

Thank you for your responses.  I read Tony's article many years ago which inspired my confrontation with the pre-millenarians.  I still will offer the question, "If Scripture tells us of those who would come denying that Christ came in the flesh, can one say that to believe that Michael is simply an angel, is similar to saying that Christ is simply an Angel."  Don't want to be guilty of an overly condemned "reverse" interpretation of the denial of Christ coming in the flesh.  I too know of sincere Christians who do not believe in Michael actually being Christ, however I have noticed through historical study that belief in false doctrine that appears to be uneffectual to the Gospel, actually, if brought through the filter of biblical truth, does indeed offer a perverted view of the person of Jesus Christ - denying the Christ found in all of Scripture.  The Gospel being ALL of Scripture, is therefore affected by wrongful interpretation.   

Deepika

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Michael The Archangel
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 11:27:10 AM »
To everyone:

I understand Jude 9 this way that

Satan was contending with God - Why have u raised up Moses
Since christ has to be the first one risen from the dead. Recall the transfiguration episode - behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matt 17:3

Col 1:15, 16, 17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Satan did not know that Christ was risen before the foundation of the world. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb 9:26

Christ has the pre-eminence of being the first one to rise from the dead and so satan is arguing with God of about him can you raise up moses from the dead because christ has not risen from the dead. He was not aware that christ had already paid for moses sins.

 


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