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Author Topic: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months  (Read 1520 times)

Dan

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 09:46:26 AM »
it's just a matter of Biblical reasoning in following what is written, rather than what is taught (see the first video uploaded by Puritan Heart in the "Why Use The KJV Translation" thread. Blindly following teachers (any Teachers, including me) is a very dangerous thing.

And exactly what is "biblical reasoning?" Reasoning that agrees with your positions?

Puritan Heart

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 10:43:27 AM »
Hello Dan,

May I begin this conversation by asking you to please describe how you define Biblical reasoning.

Thanking you in advance

Alexandra

PS.  to which I wish to add, your questions are now entering the field of apologetics.
Habakkuk 3: 17 - 19

Erik Diamond

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 04:43:20 PM »
Quote from: Tony Warren
The 5 months "represents" the time period between when God gives authority to open the bottomless bit or abyss and loose the spirit of Antichrist against His rebellious house, and the time when the house is left in ruins or desolated.

I may stand corrected, Tony.

I thought the spiritual period of 5 months might last from opening of bottomless pit to Second Coming.


Revelation 9:3-4
[3]  And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[4]  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


It seems to me that God has commanded the locusts not to hurt His Elect while they were still in the congregation when the attack occurs. So the torment of the unsealed ones is same thing as the Two Witnesses' truthful testimony being silenced, right?

My question is doesn't the torment of the locusts be considered as plague?


Revelation 18:4-5
[4]  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
[5]  For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

I agree that God's elect will only be called when the congregation (Babylon) has become desolate but the locusts occur before.  Can you explain this?

Thanks
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Dan

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2017, 02:27:22 AM »
Hello Dan,
May I begin this conversation by asking you to please describe how you define Biblical reasoning.
PS.  to which I wish to add, your questions are now entering the field of apologetics.

Well, it's all related. You can't study eschatology without getting into apologetics of a defense of your view because your method determines your stance on the issue. So many spiritualize the scriptures instead of taking them literally, and that is where they mess up and fall into Amillennialism. I define biblical reasoning as having a mind to reject such spiritualizing and accept the bible literally. The Dispensational theologians do this consistently and so have biblical reasoning. How do you define it?

Puritan Heart

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2017, 03:24:29 AM »
Hello Dan,
May I begin this conversation by asking you to please describe how you define Biblical reasoning.
PS.  to which I wish to add, your questions are now entering the field of apologetics.

Well, it's all related. You can't study eschatology without getting into apologetics of a defense of your view because your method determines your stance on the issue. So many spiritualize the scriptures instead of taking them literally, and that is where they mess up and fall into Amillennialism. I define biblical reasoning as having a mind to reject such spiritualizing and accept the bible literally. The Dispensational theologians do this consistently and so have biblical reasoning. How do you define it?

Hello and thank you Dan for taking the time to reply.

Before I answer to your reply or explain how I define Biblical reasoning and without assuming anything except based on what you have written, might I ask how you have come to accept the Dispensationalist interpretations ?  Kindly elaborate as much as you can, what it is you believe and how you came to finally be satisfied with your conclusion, if indeed you are convinced.

And again, I thank you for your prayerful considerations Dan. 

A sister in Christ

Alexandra
Habakkuk 3: 17 - 19

Reformer

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2017, 06:31:46 AM »
Well, it's all related. You can't study eschatology without getting into apologetics of a defense of your view because your method determines your stance on the issue.

Very true. I have always believed that the Dispensational methodology is the root of their misinterpretations and error in understanding prophesy. So they see the millennial reign as future, the binding of Satan as for the world, and the 5 months of torment as literal. Even though nothing is literal in that whole narrative.


Quote
So many spiritualize the scriptures instead of taking them literally, and that is where they mess up and fall into Amillennialism. I define biblical reasoning as having a mind to reject such spiritualizing and accept the bible literally. The Dispensational theologians do this consistently and so have biblical reasoning.

The Myth of "Consistent Literalism"
http://MountainRetreat.org/eschatology/conliteral.html

"Literalism is considered by many a test of orthodoxy--the only hermeneutic by which one may correctly interpret and understand the Bible. Dispensational premillennialists who reject other eschatological views in the belief that they tend toward 'spiritualization' and 'allegorizing' claim the distinction of being consistent literalists. -Jack Van Deventer"


Quote
How do you define it?

I define it as reasoning biblically. We can reason like Atheists, out of our mind and views of self determination. We can reason like  Premillennialists, out of history, presumption and worldly definitions. We can reason like spiritualists, out of our feelings and emotions. Or we can reason like servants of God, out of the Bible and the rules God has set there. That's biblical reasoning.

Isa 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

In man's reasoning out of his own mind he is good.  In God's reasoning, which we read in His bible, his sins are as scarlet and he needs a Savior. Which reasoning is biblical? So, do we reason together with God or judge by what seems right in our own thinking?

Tony Warren

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2017, 02:02:24 AM »
>>>
And exactly what is "biblical reasoning?" Reasoning that agrees with your positions?
<<<

God forbid! That would be blind reasoning. It's reasoning together with God, or more accurately put, using God's interpretation by reason of following God's word. It's a reasoning that "agrees" with Scripture that authoritatively says these things. Thus I agree with God's declarations in Revelation chapter 2 revealing exactly what constitutes not only a fallen star, but the place from where he had fallen "and" the retribution God would require of His church if he didn't repent and do the first works. It's nothing more and nothing less than sound and honest analysis of exactly what God said. I didn't make it up that God identified the "mystery" of the fallen star as a messenger of the church, it was written. Biblical reasoning is the use of our God given sound Biblical and logical faculties to discern His truths by authoritative writings of the author. It is the rational methodology of comparing Scripture with Scripture to arrive at God's truth "rather" than wild and unsubstantiated theories out of our own fallible and human imagination. God has endowed all mankind with the capacity to think and to reason honestly, where our thought process allows us to receive truth and understand it as the coherent, logical and well-organized thoughts that are God authored and trustworthy. Therefore, there is no excuse we can give at the last day for rejecting what was actually written. If God said the mystery of a fallen star is that it is a messenger of the church, how then can we righteously disagree or claim that this is a private interpretation or simply personal opinion? If God says the result of this (if not repented of) is the removal of the star's Candlestick, how then can we righteously disagree or claim it is simply a guess. God is t the author of confusion, and a witness or testimony to His word can never be wrong.

Numbers 22:18
  • "And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more."

The point being, God already solved the mystery. That's how we know the identity of the Stars in both Revelation 12 and 9. So yes, in my warped mind I could say this was a literal star dropping out of literal space hitting the literal earth, but how would that be either logical (since it would destroy the earth), Biblical (it doesn't agree with the rest of Scripture) or rational (the star was given authority to open the pit). Unless I am dabbling in the absurdity and inconsistency of man's "unbiblical" and carnal thinking, it's symbolic and thus must be understood by comparing Scripture with Scripture. ...Biblical reasoning is reasoning by the Spirit, from the Scriptures--and not all have the God given wisdom to do so.

1st Corinthianas 2:13-14
  • "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
  • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Indeed, inherently we should be able to discern an exegesis by theologians that read things from out of the Scriptures, as contrasted with theologians that consistently read things into Scripture that are not there. Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible is actually a very consistent, lucid, rational, cerebral and intellectual book that is in complete harmony with itself. Just because it is deemed foolishness by many who are foolish (Psalms 12:15-18), does not make it injudicious, unsound or incomprehensible. In other words, the reason we can come to the correct truth of Scripture is specifically because the Bible is a systematic, sound, logical, noble, consistent and rational book. Just because mankind may lack those qualities, doesn't disprove them.  Thus sound reasoning agrees with God's interpretation of the star John saw fallen as a messenger of the church who has fallen away from Him, and that will have his church judged if he doesn't repent and do the first works. That's not my reasoning, as God isn't agreeing with me, I am agreeing with God. It's what God said, and thus really cannot be denied, gainsaid or resisted by any noble servants of God.

These locust-like representations are permitted to torment for 5 months, which are no more literal than the star John saw that had fallen was literal, or the key that was given him, or the smoke that the sun and the air were darkened by, or the hair of the locust-like symbols that was like women or their tail with a scorpion stinger. How do we know?  "By biblical reasoning!"

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2017, 02:09:56 AM »
>>>
We did not know when it started and how long it will last.  Only God knows.  He did promise through that His Elect will know when they see the signs...
<<<

Agreed. And the signs are that the star that is fallen and will not repent, the end being their church will be removed out of its place. The sign is that the messenger of the church has departed from the faith and abominations that makes desolate are allowed to stand in the holy place. It is that there are a proliferation of false Christs (man ruling in the Temple as the Word of God), and the forgetfulness of our first love (or love growing cold). It is that the camp of the saints is being assaulted universally. There is a famine not of read, but of hearing the word of God, etc., etc.. These are the signs so many cannot discern.

Matthew 16:3
  • "And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"

The signs of the times. The spiritual apostasy and darkness. The same blindness of Israel being repeated in the spiritual blindness of the New Testament congregation. Proving yet again the Preacher's words, "there is nothing new under the sun."

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2017, 02:55:26 AM »
>>>
I thought the spiritual period of 5 months might last from opening of bottomless pit to Second Coming.
<<<

I believe it lasts from the opening of the pit to the time when the believers are told to flee to the mountains, or to come out of what has become spiritually Babylon. After that, it is left desolate. But the end is not yet as the witnesses of God stand far off mourning its (the churches) fall, and of how precious she once was, and how it has all come to ruin. Much as the Apostle Paul mourned and shed tears for Israel knowing its desolation.

Romans 9:2-3
  • "That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
  • For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

As I said, I believe that the Old Testament apostasy and fall of God's congregation mirrors the New Testament apostasy and fall of God's congregation. I believe that after the 5 months, the church remains desolated for a period, but the days are shortened (else no flesh would be saved), and then Christ returns on the clouds of Glory. That is my understanding in what I gleaned from the Scriptures.


Quote
>>>
It seems to me that God has commanded the locusts not to hurt His Elect while they were still in the congregation when the attack occurs. So the torment of the unsealed ones is same thing as the Two Witnesses' truthful testimony being silenced, right?
<<<

Actually God forbade this judgment from happening at all until after all that God had intended to seal in their foreheads (saved/secured) had been sealed (Revelation 7). Once all Israel are sealed, the millennial reign of Christ on earth is over and then and only then can this pit be opened, Satan loosed, and this judgment bringing great tribulation upon the church occur. For 5 months (which I believe is spiritual) the two witnesses witness or testify in the city Jerusalem (the church), but when their testimony is finished they are killed (symbolically) where they are effectively put to silence there. It is "then" that the Spirit of God calls them out. I believe that is when the 5 months are over, and the city falls. This is when the city is seen with the smoke of its burning and in ruins for a while before Christ returns. Remember, the nation of Israel went silent for 40 years prior to Christ's first advent.


Quote
>>>
I agree that God's elect will only be called when the congregation (Babylon) has become desolate but the locusts occur before.  Can you explain this?
<<<

The locusts come while the believers are in the church with the testimony of Christ. Indeed, the testimony from their mouths is God's word and so is a word of judgment against these wicked. Their testimony is a testimony of God's judgment, and that's why Revelation 11 says these two tormented the the people of that great city Jerusalem. Because they don't want to hear the truth as they are vexed by it, being adversaries to it. See the language of Revelation 11 of the believers in the church and ow their testimony is symbolized as judgment:

Revelation 11:5-6
  • "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
  • These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

What proceeds out of their mouths is the word of God, and it is symbolized as fire because it is the unadulterated word of God's judgment. Comparing Scripture with Scripture:

Jeremiah 5:14
  • "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."

This is how the word of God judges them as fire. Symbolically. The point is, they are still within the city right up until the time their testimony is finished and they are killed. The locusts can't hurt them, but they are killed by silencing them as the sinful man takes a seat to rule in God's house. When the great voice from heaven calls them to the mountain top the 5 months are up and that great city babylon falls. The 7000 slain are representative of all of the church that remains.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Herman Stowe

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2017, 04:16:31 AM »
Sounds like Biblical reasoning to me :)

Erik Diamond

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2017, 07:29:59 PM »
Quote
As I said, I believe that the Old Testament apostasy and fall of God's congregation mirrors the New Testament apostasy and fall of God's congregation.

Agreed.

Quote
Actually God forbade this judgment from happeningat alluntil after all that God had intended to seal in their foreheads (saved/secured) had been sealed (Revelation 7).

Agreed.

Quote
Once all Israel are sealed, the millennial reign of Christ on earth is over and thenand only thencan this pit be opened, Satan loosed, and this judgment bringing great tribulation upon the church occur.

Agreed.

Quote
For 5 months (which I believe is spiritual) the two witnesses witness or testify in the city Jerusalem (the church), but when their testimony is finished they are killed (symbolically) where they are effectively put to silence there.

Okay, I highlighted some of your quote above to show where I do not understand what you were saying.  Are you saying that the Two Witnesses will still testify in the city DURING the 5 months AFTER their testimony is finished and being silenced?

Quote
I believe that is when the 5 months are over, and the city falls. This is when the city is seen with the smoke of its burning and in ruins for a while before Christ returns.

Agreed.
 
Quote
The locusts come while the believers are in the church with the testimony of Christ. Indeed, the testimony from their mouths is God's word and so is a word of judgment against these wicked. Their testimony is a testimony of God's judgment, and that's why Revelation 11 says these two tormented the the people of that great city Jerusalem. Because they don't want to hear the truth as they are vexed by it, being adversaries to it.

I believe that the torment that comes out of the mouths of Two Witnesses took place during their 1,260 day ministry, not after their testimony is finished and beast/locusts come out.  As for the torment of the locusts...

Revelation 9:2-5
[2]  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3]  And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[4]  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[5]  And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

It was the locusts, and not His Two Witnesses, that God commanded them to hurt those men without seal of God during 5 months.  So I wanted to know why did you think it will be the testimony of Two Witnesses that can torment those without seal of God during 5 months?

Quote
See the language of Revelation 11 of the believers in the church and ow their testimony is symbolized as judgment:

I agree that the testimony of Two Witnesses sometimes could be as judgment, but it only occurs during "the day of their prophecy" per Revelation 11:6

Revelation 11:5-6
[5]  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[6]  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The testimony or days of their prophecy of Two Witnesses will only last 1,260 days ([size=0px]symbolically[/size]) but their testimony will end when the locusts comes out of bottomless pit so my question is why did you think the two witnesses still testify in the city during 5 month and call their testimony judgment?

Quote
Symbolically. The point is, they are still within the city right up until the time their testimony is finished and they are killed.

Right. They were still within the city during their 1,260 days of prophesy but when their testimony is finished their bodies will be lying DEAD in the city for 3-1/2 days. It may be the same time period of 5 months when the locusts attacks. The great voice from heaven will occur after the 5 months are up when the Elect will depart.

Revelation 11:7-12
[7]  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8]  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[9]  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10]  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11]  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12]  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The enemies rejoice over Two Witnesses because their torment from 1260 days of prophesy expired when their testimoy is finished. They are now dead and no longer testify in the city.  However, there is another torment during this period that the locusts come with.  They are the false prophets and christs, aren't they? 

Revelation 9:2-3, 5
[2]  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3]  And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[5]  And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Here is a chart to see if it looks right to you:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2017, 04:28:36 AM »
>>>
For 5 months (which I believe is spiritual) the two witnesses witness or testify in the city Jerusalem (the church), but when their testimony is finished they are killed (symbolically) where they are effectively put to silence there.

Okay, I highlighted some of your quote above to show where I do not understand what you were saying.  Are you saying that the Two Witnesses will still testify in the city DURING the 5 months AFTER their testimony is finished and being silenced?
<<<

I do not believe that the 5 months are "after" their testimony is finished, but it is "before" the fall of the church and during the time they are in great tribulation. It is the time of great tribulation within and at the end of the 1260 days. The saints are still in the church being reviled, spoken against and persecuted right up until the time they are killed. The loosing has two effects. #1. it causes great tribulation to the witnesses and ultimately kills them, but cannot hurt them. #2. it hurts those who haven't made their calling and election sure and brings their house to abominations. Then the 5 months are over, the two witnesses are killed and the ruin/desolation of the church takes place.


Quote
>>>
I believe that the torment that comes out of the mouths of Two Witnesses took place during their 1,260 day ministry...
<<<

Correct!


Quote
>>>
...not after their testimony is finished and beast/locusts come out.
<<<

No, the beasts/locusts come out within the 1260 days, not after it. The 5 months are within the 1260 days, not after it. The cause for the two witnesses persecution is the loosing of this from the pit. That is why it couldn't happen until all were sealed that are to be sealed. Their testimony is not finished until after these wicked do their job and silence their testimony (effectively killing them).


Quote
>>>
It was the locusts, and not His Two Witnesses, that God commanded them to hurt those men without seal of God during 5 months. 
<<<

Actually both hurt (torment) them because the two witnesses bring God's word of this torment from their mouths. That's why they hate them and want them dead--because they prophesy or declare that they are under judgment. The Elect's testimony of hurt that the witnesses bring is the torment of God in word. Exactly why God says their word is like fire and they as wood to it. It judges! The hurt of God's judgment upon the unrighteous by the locusts, and the Witnesses word of it are two sides of the same coin.

Revelation 11:5-6
  • "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
  • These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

Note that this is synonymous with the judgments God pours out upon the unfaithful?
Those who attempt to hurt the elect have no "real" power to do so, but by the word of God that comes out of the elect's mouth, they are themselves brought under this judgment.  For they are worthy. The fire from their mouths, turning waters to blood, stopping rain, etc., are all symbolic images signifying no more salvation for these wicked. That's the power of God's word against the enemies of God. God's judgment by God's word upon them (those unfaithful, locusts to anyone who would hurt them). ...as contrasted with the fulfillment in the hurt of the locusts upon these unrighteous as judgment.


Quote
>>>
So I wanted to know why did you think it will be the testimony of Two Witnesses that can torment those without seal of God during 5 months?
<<<

Because God said they tormented them. They are the ambassadors of God, the messengers and harbinger of God's coming judgment. The testimony and warnings of the election has always been a torment to the unrighteous. John the Baptist tormented the ruler, Jesus tormented the Scribes and Pharisees, Stephen torment the people ho stoned him to death. The word has always been torment because they don't like it, it angers them, it vexes them, it causes them to revile the election because they want to hear smooth things (Isaiah 30:9-10) and justifications that they are at peace, when they are not. I say torment because that is exactly what God's word says they did to the wicked:

Revelation 11:10
  • "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

The question is, who were the two witnesses tormenting and how? They were tormenting all "these" who rejoice when they are killed in Jerusalem "because" they were tormenting them by the witness of their word. It w a word of fire and brimstone to the unrighteous in God's house, and like now it is not well received. It is their testimony of God's wrath upon them that is a torment to the adversaries of Christ because they have pleasure in unrighteousness and the elect tell them that it is unrighteousness. They hate the truthful Witnesses because they don't want to hear what they are saying. See the example of the king of Israel who hated the Lord's prophet Jehoshaphat (1st Kings 22:8 ) because he said that he only prophesied evil concerning him and never good. Sounds like many who ask me why I am always talking about the judgment of the church. They hate it because they want to continue on in the spirit of disobedient (Ephesians 2:2) "because" they never made their calling and election sure.

2nd Peter 1:10
  • "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

rather than taking heed to God's call, like Israel before them the parrot the line about how the church can never fall, the church can neer fail. They are wrong, and the witnesses telling them that is torment. Nothings changed in the rule of God's kingdom, leaders still hate the Lord's prophets for saying things they don't want to hear.

While the two Witnesses are alive in Jerusalem, the wicked there are forced to hear the truth and this is torment. Indeed THAT is why they were killed or silenced in the church. Because their testimony was a torment right up until the day they were killed and the wicked think they have reason to rejoice.

We should understand the harmony, symmetry and concord that God's judgment of sending the locusts to devour the fruitful field and the Witnesses testimony that this would happen is a fulfillment of their words of their impending judgment if they didn't reopent. So it's easy to see how their testimony, a harbinger of torment, was torment.


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I agree that the testimony of Two Witnesses sometimes could be as judgment...
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The testimony of the two witnesses is always of judgment, because that's the other side of the salvation coin. The gospel is a word of salvation and of judgment. Because the first question should be, salvation from what? From God's judgment for our sins. In reality, the gospel is the good news of a deliverance from bad news.


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...but it only occurs during "the day of their prophecy" per Revelation 11:6
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The days of their prophesy is whenever they live, and God's testimony from the mouths of these two witnesses have gone on for over 2000 years since the cross, and will continue until they are killed when their testimony finished. Their word has always been a word of salvation and a word of damnation. There is no reason to assume it would stop during the 5 months of great tribulation when things are appreciably worse. No, their testimony is right up until the time they are killed, particularly in the 5 months, then they are killed and the city falls.


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The testimony or days of their prophecy of Two Witnesses will only last 1,260 days ([size=0px]symbolically
) but their testimony will end when the locusts comes out of bottomless pit
<<<[/size]

No. Their testimony will not end until they are killed by those deceived by Satan and his minions to come against them and end their testimony. If their testimony ended when the locusts were loosed, Satan would already have the city and would not have to come up against it. No, Satan musters the nations from the 4 quarters of the earth to come against the camp of the saints (the church) after he is loosed from the pit. They aren't dead before he is loosed. He brings this final warfare to the camp of the saints, with the saints still in it. And the wicked go up and are allowed of God to only hurt those who do not have the seal of God. In other words, both are within the church, but they can only hurt those not truly saved, a fulfillment of the fiery words of the two witnesses testimony. It's only after they are killed that their prophesy in this city ends.


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so my question is why did you think the two witnesses still testify in the city during 5 month and call their testimony judgment?
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Because God says that they are there in this time of great tribulation, not raptured, not taken out, but right there being reviled, persecuted and hated, and their testimony is of judgment right up until their testimony is finished, and then they are killed. They cannot be killed until after the pit is opened and Satan musters an army to war against the city because of its unfaithfulness.


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Symbolically. The point is, they are still within the city right up until the time their testimony is finished and they are killed.

Right. They were still within the city during their 1,260 days of prophesy but when their testimony is finished their bodies will be lying DEAD in the city for 3-1/2 days. It may be the same time period of 5 months when the locusts attacks. The great voice from heaven will occur after the 5 months are up when the Elect will depart.
<<<

The 5 months are within and at the end of the 1260 days. Their testimony is not finished until the 5 months ending of the 1260 days are finished. The 5 months represent the time the pit is opened until the witnesses are killed, not the 3 1/2 days which is after they are killed and lie asleep or symbolically dead in the street.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2017, 01:19:51 PM »
First, I like to thank you for your time to explain this subject with me, Tony. I enjoyed this discussion with you.

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The saints are still in the church being reviled, spoken against and persecuted right up until the time they are killed.


Okay, so..in order for the bodies of Two Witnesses to lie dead in the great city for 3-1/2 day symbolic period, the five months period need to take place within 1,260 period right prior to the end of this period when the Two Witnesses will be KILLED, right?

It is similar to when Jesus was arrested and suffered being reviled, spoken against and persecuted by the Jewish leaders until they put Him to death?

And when you said:
 
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[/size][size=0px]The 5 months are within and at the end of the 1260 days. Their testimony is not finished until the 5 months ending of the 1260 days are finished. The 5 months represent the time the pit is opened until the witnesses are killed, not the 3 1/2 days which is after they are killed and lie asleep or symbolically dead in the street. [/size]

Okay I see where you come from on this, but how can you reconcile your position with the following verses: 

Rev 11:3,7-8

[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.



[7]  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8]  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Maybe I misread something but it seems to me at first that God is saying that the beast will come out of bottomless pit AFTER the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished, didn't He?  Or did the verse really says that when Two Witnesses have finished their testimony, it is because the beast that come out "earlier" who will make war against them, and kill them. And the killing is what actually ended the testimony, right?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2017, 02:00:50 PM »
>>>
[7]  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8]  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Maybe I misread something but it seems to me at first that God is saying that the beast will come out of bottomless pit AFTER the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished, didn't He?
<<<

Let me try and put it another way. The time when they finish their testimony is synonymous with the time when "all are sealed who are to be sealed" (as per Revelation 7), and that is when the pit is opened. It's not the "day" of their death. It's the end of their testimony of salvation, and now their testimony is only to judgment as there is no one being sealed/saved at this appointed time. But the end of their judgment and of the 1260 days is not yet as they still have to all be killed and that takes time. Mirroring Israel.

Mark 13:7
  • "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
  • For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
  • But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them."

The tribulation that kills the Saints takes time. We're talking about the whole church here. It isn't saying one day the pit is opened and the next day all believers are universally killed on that day. That doesn't make sense, the silencing of the gospel is a process that takes time, and in that time their word is a word of judgment only. Because all who were elected to be saved have been saved. But eventually, when they are all killed in Jerusalem, that is the end of the 5 months and the beginning of the 3 1/3 days they lay ead in the street before they are called of God to the mountains. Just as parable of the 10 virgins who slept and were called to meet the bridegroom, 5 of which were sealed and 5 of which were not sealed missing their calling.


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it is because the beast that come out "earlier" who will make war against them, and kill them. And the killing is what actually ended the testimony, right?
<<<

The Beast ended their testimony, but not in fnal day of the 1260 Spiritual days. It's a trial of tribulation and that takes time, which lasts spiritually 5 months. After that, this Killing of the two witnesses is complete. The numbers aren't any more literal than the number 2 is for the Lord's witnesses. The 5 months time is merely illustrative of this period between when the evil spirit is loosed and the consequence of the death of God's witnesses they bring--their testimony already aving been finished.

By the way, which is the reason the spirit Satan was bound in the first place if you will remember. So that the church could be built from the nations/gentiles. The testimony finished only means that mission/commission has been accomplished, and that is why this Pit could now be opened and there be great tribulation and killing of these witnesses.  Their job will have been done prior.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

George

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Re: They Shall Be Tormented Five Months
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2017, 05:49:06 AM »

Tony, so you equate the sleeping 10 virgins to the 5 months? How?

 


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