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Author Topic: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks  (Read 10459 times)

Diane Moody

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2015, 03:42:22 AM »
 :iagree:

Betty

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2015, 06:43:20 AM »

There's the biblical overview of this passage. Israel will be restored.


And many Reformed ministers believe that too, so don't think Tony's "opinions" are those of the church. They are his own, not the Christian viewpoints.

I tend to believe the beating of swords into plowshares happens when we are taken up in the rapture at the end. Then and only then is there no war anymore.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away". Revelation 21:4

I think this is when we shall beat our swords into plowshares.

Mila Ostrovsky

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2015, 07:04:10 PM »
I tend to believe the beating of swords into plowshares happens when we are taken up in the rapture at the end. Then and only then is there no war anymore.

 Isa 40:2-3
"Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God".

It may be that God's word is to be understood differently that you understand it. The only time the prophesied end of warfare takes place is when we become born of Christ. There is God's definition of warfare, and then there is yours, but they aren't the same. Tony uses God's definition (from the Bible) of warfare, and peace and of the safety of Israel.

Betty

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2015, 07:56:31 PM »
I don't know about that, there are different kinds of warfare. What Isaiah is talking about is spiritual, I'm talking about earthly warfare that will be ended.

Melanie

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2017, 12:04:01 AM »
I don't know about that, there are different kinds of warfare. What Isaiah is talking about is spiritual, I'm talking about earthly warfare that will be ended.

Betty, If you are talking about earthly warfare as you said, then that type of warfare will never end. There will never be a time where warfare will end on this earth.

"But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Luke 21:9"


Earthly warfare is a product of man's sin, which man will have right up until judgment day. Therefore, if you are talking about earthly warfare as you said, it doesn't fit. The wolves and lambs in scripture, in God's definition, are believers and unbelievers. There are no wolves in Heaven, and there is no time when the Lamb should not fear the wolf on earth except when they are saved. Christians keep thinking carnally in terms of earthly items, animals, Temples and nations and that is why they get interpretations all wrong. This is spiritual warfare, spiritual lambs and spiritual wolves that can't harm them. It was fulfilled when Christ died on the cross and was risen up to reign.

ZeroCool

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2017, 01:59:16 PM »
Isaiah 2:2-3

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the

Tony, you did a credible job of explaining Isaiah chapter 2 verse 4, what about the above verses 2 and 3? I'm assuming that relates to Christ's first advent?


George

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2017, 11:48:49 PM »
Dr. John F. Walvoord

http://walvoord.com/article/288

According to Isaiah 2:1-4, Jerusalem will be the center of the millennial government. Beginning in verse 2 Isaiah writes: “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:2-4). From this passage it is evident that Jerusalem is to be the capitol of the world, that from Zion the law will go forth, and all nations will be under the sway of this righteous government. The result will be that “they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:4).

One of the interesting aspects of the millennial government is the fact that resurrected David will apparently be a prince under Christ in administering the millennial kingdom in so far as it relates to Israel. According to Ezekiel, David will act as a shepherd over the people of Israel: “And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I, Jehovah, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Jehovah, have spoken it” (Ezekiel 34:23,24). Some have interpreted this mention of David as a reference to Christ. However, there is no good reason for not taking it in its ordinary literal sense inasmuch as David will certainly be raised from the dead and will be on the scene. What would be more natural than to assign him a responsible place in the government of Christ in relation to the people of Israel? The concept that David will rule under Christ is found not only here, but also in Jeremiah 30:9; 33:15-17; Ezekiel 37:24, 25; Hosea 3:5; and oblique references in Isaiah 55: 3, 4 and Amos 9:11.


Dr Walvoord is an established, respected learned and great Theologian who is well known.

Pilgrim

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2017, 01:56:32 AM »
Dr Walvoord is an established, respected learned and great Theologian who is well known.


Walvoord's unsound doctrines have been debunked numerous times on this forum and shown to be Biblically untenable. No need to do it again.
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." -Matthew 1:21

Tony Warren

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2017, 08:49:22 AM »
>>>
Tony, you did a credible job of explaining Isaiah chapter 2 verse 4, what about the above verses 2 and 3? I'm assuming that relates to Christ's first advent?
<<<

Indeed, the last days of Isiah chapter 2 prophesies of the New Testament dispensation that started with the coming of Christ.

Hebrews 1:2
  • "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

"The last days" here illustrates that the Kingdom of Christ prophesied in the Old Testament had come, and this is what is being foretold in Isaiah chapter 2. It's not a future reference, it's what took place with Christ's first advent.


Quote
>>>
Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
<<<

Mountains in Scripture are interpreted by God as Kingdoms, thus the mountain of the Lord's house is a reference to Mount Zion and represents the Kingdom of God. It was established (as was prophesied) by Christ's ascension to the throne to rule over the nations. This signified by Christ ascending to the throne, where He is exalted above all mountains or kingdoms.

Ephesians 1:19-21
  • "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
  • Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
  • Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

As Isaiah 2:2 foretold, Christ has already established His mountain or kingdom above all, and He has already ascended to the throne, where He is exalted above all the mountains or kingdoms, once again fulfilling Isaiah's prophesy that the non-Jews or Gentiles (nations) would flow into His kingdom.

Romans 9:24-26
  • "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
  • And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."

This is the fulfillment of the Kingdom being established above all, and the nations (or Gentiles) flowing into the kingdom of God.


Quote
>>>
Isaiah 2:3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
<<<


The house of God is the congregation.

1st Timothy 3:15
  • "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

In Isaiah chapter 2 again we see the mountain is revealed to be the "kingdom" or house of the God of Jacob. And the many people who come to be taught of God (1st John 2:27) are the nations who flow into His house in the millennial reign of Christ, which started at His first advent. Such as also prophesied in Psalms 86.

Psalms 86:9
  • "All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name./i]
  • For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
  • Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name."

And how does the Lord "teach" the servants of God his ways, as Isaiah 2:3 also declared? By the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost He teaches us of his ways, so that we can walk in his paths. It is fulfilled in the Kingdom of Christ as out of Mount Zion the law has gone forth, and the Word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Fulfilled! Christ teaching us of His ways was established as a reality when He came to Israel and preached the gospel from Jerusalem, and taught us of His ways that we might abandoned the crooked paths and walk in His paths. Even as the rebellious leaders of Christ's own congregation (without even realizing it) prophesied of this in their rejection of Him.

John 7:35
  • "Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?"

Israel was blinded, eyes that they would not see that they would not find Him. And indeed Christ did go to teach the Gentiles after He (their foundation stone), was rejected, where they to this day have not found Him. Well has John 7:35 prophesied. From that mountain (Zion and the Kingdom Christ established) from Jerusalem, the gospel went to all the world just as prophesied in Isaiah. That is when the word and the law of the Lord went out from Jerusalem, that we might walk in His paths. All of this was fulfilled with the first advent of Christ.

Of course, this is difficult for those indoctrinated into the idea that Isaiah 2 is some future fulfillment where Lambs and Wolves frolic around together in heaven, nevertheless, it is true. The lamb is unafraid of the wolf not because the wolf becomes a herbivore in heaven, but because the Lamb and wolf are synonyms in God's word for His Servants and those who would devour them. The wolf cannot hurt the lamb because as God declared, "they will not hurt nor destroy in My Holy Mountain." It is because there in this kingdom of Christ is the peace and safety of Israel. Not in strong walls and a great military, only in Christ Jesus.

Luke chapter 10 verses 19 and 20 give us a similar illustration of this same principle of how with the coming of Christ's Kingdom they cannot be hurt by the enemies of God. The Lord sends out 'seventy' (a spiritually significant number) disciples with the gospel to witness in twos (signifying truthful witness) with this information and instruction.

Luke 10:19
  • ""Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Is the Lord giving His servants a power to go around the countryside and be immune to being hurt by enemies that are literal snakes and scorpions? No, not at all. The serpent and Scorpion signify and represent the power of Satan, just as the wolf does. If you walk through the desert, will physical/literal snakes and scorpions clear a path for you and not hurt you because you are a servant of God? Not at all, and this is not what Christ is teaching here. Being bitten by a snake is not the force of the enemy that Christ gives us power over. The power of the enemy Jesus speaks about here is the power of that Scorpion from the pit and that old Serpent Satan. Those who are spiritually serpents and scorpions (those of Satan) are the ones who God is teaching cannot harm us. Yes, even today we have some misguided souls calling themselves Christians going around handling snakes because they can't see the forest for the trees. The truth is, God has given us safety from the antichrist spirit Satan, who desires to deceive, seduce and devour us.

1st Peter 3:12-13
  • ""For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
  • And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?"

The answer to this rhetoric question is that there is no one who can haurt or destroy you you when you are a follower of Christ. So when we ask, what does the Lamb not being afraid of the Wolf in the Lord's holy mountain mean, it means the servant of God cannot be hurt by the wolf, nor the wolves in sheep's clothing that are among the lambs. It's not really that difficult to discern because Christ used this same vernacular with us very plainly during His ministry.

Matthew 10:16
  • "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

There is the answer to the relevant question concerning the mountain of the Lord, and also the passages that follow verses 2 and 3. Christ didn't send us out among wolves to be hurt, He assures that they will not hurt nor destroy us as we abide in His holy Mountain. Again, not because the wolf has a new nature, but because we are sealed, secured in Christ and cannot be spiritually hurt by Satan or his minions. The kingdom reign and peace prophesied in Isaiah is the peace of Christ, and the cessation of the sword of warfare, turned into another job of cultivating the Lord's plantings, is by the New Spirit of Christ within us as we ar reconciled with God.

I hope that helps a little.

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Peace,
Tony Warren
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Tony Warren

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2017, 08:57:03 AM »
>>>
Dr. John F. Walvoord
<<<

None of John Walvoord's theories and suppositions about Premillennarian doctrines have held up under a careful, honest examination and scrutiny by any faithful theologian. It is self-evident that most of his theories are based on assumptions, speculations and suppositions, not on a studied exposition and exegesis of the pertinent passage. This vividly demonstrated in this forum time and time again.


Quote
>>>
One of the interesting aspects of the millennial government is the fact that resurrected David will apparently be a prince under Christ in administering the millennial kingdom in so far as it relates to Israel.
<<<

The David of the prophesied Kingdom is Christ, not a reincarnated David. He is the son of David, meaning He came from the line of David. The prophesies of David does not mean that David must come back to life as a physical man and reign from a physical/literal city in the middle east anymoe than the prophesies of Elijah coming before the Lord means that Elijah had to be reincarnated, and John the Baptist didn't fulfill the prophesy. But we've been all over this before and nothing new has been added that needs addressing.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

ZeroCool

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Re: Beat their Swords into Plowshares and their Spears into Pruninghooks
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2017, 09:13:58 AM »
>>>
Tony, you did a credible job of explaining Isaiah chapter 2 verse 4, what about the above verses 2 and 3? I'm assuming that relates to Christ's first advent?
<<<

Indeed, the last days of Isiah chapter 2 prophesies of the New Testament dispensation that started with the coming of Christ. Mountains in Scripture are interpreted by God as Kingdoms, thus the mountain of the Lord's house is a reference to Mount Zion and represents the Kingdom of God. It was established (as was prophesied) by Christ's ascension to the throne to rule over the nations. This signified by Christ ascending to the throne, where He is exalted above all mountains or kingdoms.

As Isaiah 2:2 foretold, Christ has already established His mountain or kingdom above all, and He has already ascended to the throne, where He is exalted above all the mountains or kingdoms, once again fulfilling Isaiah's prophesy that the non-Jews or Gentiles (nations) would flow into His kingdom.

Thank you again Tony for your diligence in answering my questions. I don't mean to be difficult, just trying to get a grip o understanding these passages.

 


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