[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6  (Read 15055 times)

Gerry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2017, 06:01:20 PM »

This is the first I've heard of this doctrine. It is interesting, but hard and disturbing.

Larry

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
  • Gender: Male
  • Reformed & Reforming
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2017, 10:20:06 AM »

This is the first I've heard of this doctrine. It is interesting, but hard and disturbing.

That's because its not a Reformed doctrine and none of the Reformers taught it.

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? I Cor. 6:3"

Matthew Henry Commentary:
 The best interpreters understand it of the evil angels, that is, the devils, whom the saints shall judge at the last day, agreeing with the Judge of the whole earth in the sentence which he shall then give against the evil angels, confining them to the bottomless pit, who, while this world lasteth, have a greater liberty as princes of the air, to rove abroad in the air, and to work mightily in the children of disobedience.

Arnold

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
  • The Spirit is willing, but the Flesh is weak.
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2017, 03:34:21 PM »
Erik, Tony, Reformer, this is what happens when you overthink things. You start to depart from established doctrines.

Reformed Baptist

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Reformed Baptists
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #93 on: March 11, 2017, 09:35:40 AM »
Erik, Tony, Reformer, this is what happens when you overthink things. You start to depart from established doctrines.

It's not overthinking, what you propose is that we stop thinking. You propose we continue to allow others to think and accept their commentaries as it were absolutely true. That will never do. Search the scriptures, not books about the scriptures.

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1981
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2017, 12:43:05 PM »
>>>
That's because its not a Reformed doctrine and none of the Reformers taught it.
<<<

The real relavant question is, "Did God Teach It?" By whose authority is the Hebrew word [malak] transliterated as Angel?

Genesis 16:7
  • "And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur."

Did Moses actually say Angel when he wrote that the Messenger of God found Sarai by a fountain of water? No, he actually said messenger. Man transliterated that to read angel many, many, many thousands of years later. Selah.

Since none of the Reformers are divinely inspired to perfect understanding, nor believed, acted or taught infallibly, why would it surprise me that they didn't teach this? They were "men" like the rest of us, all with the same feet of clay. What makes you think Reformers knew everything correctly concerning judging [angelos] when they themselves readily admitted they didn't? Or have you even read them? They speculated and made educated suppositions, just as you are doing. God gives the wise their wisdom in due time and the understanding of the interpretation is not by sitting around rding the Reformers, but His Holy Word. Understanding is a gift that starts with the fear of the Lord to accept His word as authoritative, speculation as speculation, and all man's deas that which must be subject to God's word. Not the other way around.

Proverbs 1:1-1
  • "The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
  • To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
  • To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
  • To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
  • A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
  • To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
  • The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

Man can't understand the dark sayings because God has obscured them in cryptic words expressed in an enigmatic way and that requires the Spirit and careful study to understand their meaning. Only God can provide that, and only to the humble before Him. The arrogant, those convinced they know the end from the beginning, hold on to the words of men as if they were gold. Why do you think the Catholic church and its clearly unbiblical doctrines have prospered? It is because they "refuse" to receive what is written f it contradicts their church fathers and tradition. When will we ever learn!


Quote
>>>
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? I Cor. 6:3"
<<<

Or is it, "Know ye not that we shall judge messengers? how much more things that pertain to this life," as it was literally inspired before MEN "transliteerated" the word to mean a supernatural heavenly being. You do understand that there was LITERALLY no such word as Angels in the Scriptures before the New Testament era, correct? The word was "malak" or messengers. Agelos is literally "messengers" not Heavenly beings come to earth. That's supposition. e.q.:

[Young's Literal Translation]
1st Corinthians 6:3
  • "have ye not known that we shall judge messengers? why not then the things of life?

That's what the text actually says, and this is the only text that agrees with what Christ said about us judging messengers ...which is not coincidental.

Luke 22:29-30
  • "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
  • That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The 12 tribes of Israel are not God's angels, but God's messengers. This is how we shall judge messengers, the same way that the twelve were appointed to judge the messengers of the twelve tribes of Israel. Corporate Israel were the messengers of God, the sons of God, the children of God, just as we've shown earlier in this thread with Scripture. No surprise then that they are now "Fallen Messengers" is it? Read Luke carefully and find out how we sit upon thrones and have had judgment given to us over the corporate body by the word. Find out how the stars of heaven are trampled under foot, and yet are not physical stars above, nor Angels in a great heavenly fight, but messengers of the gospel. In any study of Scriptures you will find that messengers of God fall all the time because of Satan. They're not angels falling.


Quote
>>>
Matthew Henry Commentary:
 The best interpreters understand it of the evil angels, that is, the devils, whom the saints shall judge at the last day,
<<<

Matthew Henry, Barnes, Scofield, John Gill, Matthew Poole, et al, are not the best interpreters, God is the Best Interpreter If the church would forbear leaning to men for their interpretations and start leaning upon God's very own words, which are the only "infallible" interpreter, they would understand a lot more than they do and not be so quick to take offense at sound theology and eschatology that contradicts their teachers.
 
Genesis 40:8
  • "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."

Man today may not understand interpretations do not belong to him, but God's messenger Joseph certainly understood it.

Genesis 41:16
  • "And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace."

Likewise, the interpretation is not in "my or anyone's speculations," it's not in Matthew Henry's ideas, it's not in any man's knowing, judgments, or theories. Man of himself cannot interpret or understand and explain God's word, it must be by interpreted and explained by divine fiat. And God's word is the only word that can explain God's word, not mine or anyone else's. And God's unadulterated word never said that the angel of the LORD found Sarai by a fountain of water. Someday, you might come to understand that truth.


Quote
>>>
agreeing with the Judge of the whole earth in the sentence which he shall then give against the evil angels, confining them to the bottomless pit,
<<<

The church has no power to sit on the throne and confine anyone in the bottomless pit, much less angels. But they have been given power to judge the messengers whom God has reserved in chains of darkness. The question really is, how we shall judge the messengers of the congregation of God, not if. Is it not by fire from the mouths of His witnesses (Revelation 11:5)? Were not the messengers of Israel judged the same way by the Lord's prophets (Jeremiah 5:13-14)? Who's paying attention to the Lord's examples? His faithful Messengers, that's who.?


Quote
>>>
who, while this world lasteth, have a greater liberty as princes of the air, to rove abroad in the air, and to work mightily in the children of disobedience.
<<<

Demons are not heavenly angels of God who have fallen and cast into the earth, that idea is a misunderstanding of the cryptic imagery God uses in His holy and infallible word. Just as there were no literal stars cast down from heaven by Satan's tail, nor a pregnant woman floating in heaven who gave birth, nor a battle of heavenly super beings in the paradise of God. All these notions are a product of unsound exegesis, fanciful legends, Bad movies and bad traditions.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1981
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2017, 01:09:32 PM »
>>>
Erik, Tony, Reformer, this is what happens when you overthink things.
<<<

Is it? Or is it not over-thinking, but thinking-it-over. Blindly following tradition (Catholic, Baptist or Protestant) is what really happens when Christians don't think at all, but rather defer to tradition, commentaries or church fathers or leaders to do their thinking for them. Not at all unlike those of Christ's time who were "NOT" as the Bereans and never proved or tested what was being said by their church fathers by the word of God. This is contrary to what God wants, as He says "Prove all things," meaning to test it by the word of God, not by the traditions and understandings passed on by church leaders. Remember, Israel did that and paid the price for it. ...except for the more noble few.

Acts 17:10-12
  • "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
  • These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
  • Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

 These Jews were more honest than some others, and so they didn't just blindly follow what their Priests and Elders had told them, they search it out in Scripture to see if it were really true. They "Let God's Word Interpret God's Word" and so God tells us "therefore" many of them believed. A lesson for us all. They checked it out in Scripture and "accordingly" believed it.

As contrasted with most of God's congregation (then and now) who would (and will) say, "That's not established church doctrine nor what the leaders of the church say." ...never mind that it's supported by Scripture, it's not what my church believes so it's wrong. As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.


Quote
>>>
You start to depart from established doctrines.
<<<

Those aren't established doctrines, they are established traditions. There is a difference. Sound doctrine versus speculative doctrine, which I call traditions. Established doctrine can be read directly from the Scriptures as a set of texts, beliefs and values taught by God's prophets, such as "the doctrine of Predestination." While tradition is speculative and supposition, such as the fanciful tradition that Michael and some super angels literally fought in God's holy heaven with a big Red Dragon with horns, while a floating pregnant woman with 12 stars as her crown was accosted. That's not established doctrine, that's a misunderstanding (misinterpretation, or more correctly put, non-interpretation) of God's cryptic imagery.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Henry

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2017, 05:41:29 AM »
 :GoodPopst:

James Heckman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2017, 06:40:18 AM »
Tony and others who believe this,
  You fail to demonstrate a proper respect for the Church Fathers. What you are really doing is putting yourself above the entire early Reformed Church. You’re actually declaring that you understand the Scripture better than all of them. Is that correct?

Trevor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 74
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #98 on: March 15, 2017, 09:12:16 AM »

James,
   It is a well known fact that key Reformers clearly did not fully appreciate the book of Revelation, most not even bothering to write or comment about it, much less understand it. So actually having more understanding of it than them would be quite easy.
A Mind For Truth
Dr. C. Trevor Bavinck
New York, NY

Blade

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2017, 10:47:17 AM »
 :GoodPopst:

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1981
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2017, 07:13:41 AM »
>>>
You fail to demonstrate a proper respect for the Church Fathers.
<<<

On the contrary, I do have a proper respect, as opposed to the improper and unhealthy reverence that some Christians have for them. There is a difference and the sad thing is, some professing Christians do not really understand that fact.

Galatis 1:10-12
  • "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
  • But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
  • For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

If I were to regard the words of men rather than God, I would indeed claim that the 7 messengers of the 7 churches were angels, just as many of them as well as the translators  did. But as the servant of Christ and not man, I can only testify to rational thinking and what Christ has defined and revealed within His word. The gospel that is preached by the apostle is not of the suppositions of men, it is according to the record divinely inspired by God. The word that is used in the Old Testament Hebrew text is [malak], and is not ever a derivative of [angelos] or meaning angel. That's a fact, not speculation or supposition on my part. The scholars are unanimous that the Hebrew word [malak] in the original text means one that is sent, as a messenger, and clearly refers to the function of the one in question, and not the nature of the agent. It could be a Theophany, Christophany, a Man or even the Spirit of the Lord Himself. A proper respect for the church fathers doesn't negate this most evident truth, it confirms it.


Quote
>>>
What you are really doing is putting yourself above the entire early Reformed Church.
<<<

Actually, I position myself above none (Ephesians 3:8) of the saints or church fathers. The better question, is the real problem for you that "I put no man's words before God's written word?" The real issue for you seems to be that I don't place the words and comments of the Reformers on a lofty and holy pedestal "as if" they aren't to be questioned. You seem perturbed that my mind isn't in sync with their ideas or thinking? And on that, you are correct--I try and sync my mind with the mind of Christ, through the Spirit and careful exegesis of His word. Not theirs.

1st Corinthians 2:16
  • "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Man cannot instruct the Lord on when, where and what He can, and cannot reveal to man. The natural man rejects the divine sovereignty over revelation, but the Spiritual man has the revealed will of God in the Bible as insight into the mind of Christ, through the Spirit. I have no control over what the early church did an did not understand. Obviously it was not much about books such a Revelation and Daniel, as we have their record that confirms that. I am convinced that when and where God gives revelation of His truths, is His business!  I don't presume to know the complexities, intricacies and details of why. I do know that knowledge and position does not place one man above another in God's sight, and so you are wrong in that theory. In man's worldly reasoning then yes, lofty men of renown rule. But in God's eyes, no.


Quote
>>>
You’re actually declaring that you understand the Scripture better than all of them. Is that correct?
<<<

I'm actually declaring that God knows Scripture better than All Of Us! I'm declaring that it's better to get our interpretations from His word as written, rather than the translators beliefs or the suppositions of man concerning what is written. I'm declaring that when God illustrates that the 7 messengers of the 7 churches are men, I'm not going to claim they are angels just because some church leaders or translators "suppose" that this is what they were. That's no way to correctly exegete Scripture. I'm declaring that when the Apostle Paul declared that we should not forget to entertain strangers (Hebrews 13:2) because many have unknowingly entertained Messengers that way, I'm not going to claim they're angels simply because church leaders or translators of old "supposed" that they are Angels, and had written that down. I'll ask you the same question that I asked before--which remains unanswered. Do you know the original Old Testament Hebrew text never once had the word Angel in it? If this is true, why was it suddenly put there in place of the word [malak] or as a substitution for messenger? Was the word messenger insufficient, or is that the exact word God intended when He inspired [malak]? Moreover, is the Messenger of the Covenant the same as the Angel of the Covenant? Or more to the point, is Christ an Angel of the Covenant? Sure, supernatural beings, christophanies, the Spirit, etc., are messengers of God. I assume you are a messenger of God, but you're not an Angel. The point is that the person who allows God (the author of Scripture) to define and interpret Scripture (rather than men or tradition), is often wiser than his teachers, according to God.

Psalms 119:99-100
  • "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
  • I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts."

What is the point here? Who has more understanding according to God? Is it the disciple (student) who leans upon the precepts and testimonies of God's word alone and in its entirety, or is it the teacher who uses apriorisms, conjecture and makes suppositions and assumptions? Should I presume the 7 messengers of the 7 churches are angels because someone else did, or should I compare Scripture with Scripture to define and determine that they were in fact exactly what the word [angelos] means, messengers? I stand with righteous Joseph who rhetorically asked, "do not interpretations belong to God?" Indeed they do.

Malachi 3:1
  • "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

Q.E.D., it is proven that if Jesus Christ was not an Angel and John the Baptist was not an Angel, then to any intelligent and sober thinking individual the word cannot actually mean angel. It can be "applied to" an angel or other envoy or supernatural being who is a messenger of God, but it cannot "mean" Angel. It's just a matter of common sense and rational judgment and thinking.

   ...not that most Christians apply that type of reasoning or thinking.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Reggie Matthews

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • Gender: Male
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Who Are The Fallen Angels or Messengers - Jude 1:6
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2017, 05:30:29 AM »
The real issue for you seems to be that I don't place the words and comments of the Reformers on a lofty and holy pedestal "as if" they aren't to be questioned. You seem perturbed that my mind isn't in sync with their ideas or thinking? And on that, you are correct--I try and sync my mind with the mind of Christ, through the Spirit and careful exegesis of His word. Not theirs.

Yes, that seems to be the issue with James most of the time. How the Reformers understood something, or what the Reformers believed, or his idea of what is and is not Reformed.  I think it is pretty obvious that most of the time the Messengers of God are believers and the seven angels of the seven churches are Messengers.

https://www.gotquestions.org/angels-seven-churches-Revelation.html
"Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?" -Ecclesiastes 8:4

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]