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Eschatology / Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Last post by ZeroCool on Yesterday at 08:45:25 PM »
You can't have it both ways. In truth, she is actually correct. People who use 1948 to prove that the nation of Israel is God's Chosen people, fulfilling the promise that there will never be an end of the nation, actually prove just the opposite. Since by their own declaration that she became a nation in 1948, that proves that the nation did come to an end.

 :GoodPopst: Tony, this post was probably the best retort against Dispensational's scriptures I've ever read. Nice job with Acts explaining Amos. Funny how it seems Dispensationaliosts have a point, until it doesn't. :cLaPpInGg:

There is the only children of Israel that will never cease to be a Holy nation before God

 :amen:  Galatians 6:15-16 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God".
Eschatology / Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Last post by Melanie on Yesterday at 04:15:29 AM »

According to the following passage, national Israel will never be destroyed:

Jer 31:36-37
36 "If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
 "Then the offspring of Israel also shall cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
I Peter 2:7-9

There is the only children of Israel that will never cease to be a Holy nation before God

37 Thus says the LORD,

"If the heavens above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:11-12

The ofspring or children were cast out because they rejected the chief corner stone. The only children of Israel that God will never cast out is the spiritual nation that is perfect before God..


Ain't that the truth!   :typing:
Eschatology / Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Last post by NoMass on June 24, 2017, 04:07:18 AM »
If genea means contemporaries, then both the signs preceding Christ's coming and the parousia itself (at least partially) must occur within the span of a single generation – variously understood to mean between 20 and 80 years, with the majority of opinion favoring 30-40 years. Scholars who define genea in this way, arrive at one of the following interpretations of Matthew 24.34:

1. Christ was mistaken – he thought the parousia (coming) would occur in the first century, but it did not. (This view represents liberal theologians and skeptics. It is acknowledged, though not subscribed to, by France.)

2. Christ was referring to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in AD 70.

3. Christ was indicating the generation that would be alive when the signs reached the stage of final fulfillment.
I liked having to be able to discus all issues. It's a shame that a few nuckleheads spoil it for the many.

 ]ThUmBsUp[  ]ThUmBsUp[  ]ThUmBsUp[  ]ThUmBsUp[  ]ThUmBsUp[ Isn't that the way it always is?

A couple of people don't want prayer in schools, and they spoil it for everyone else. A couple conservatives are racists and they make every conservative look racist.  A couple people don't want Christmas scenes about Christ in town and they ruin it for everyone else. A couple of people don't like your fence, and so you have to ask permission from a Homeowners association to put one up "they like" on your own property.  No matter what you do, you will always have the few who think their opinion is god's, and spoil the freedoms of the many.
Eschatology / Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Last post by David Knoles on June 23, 2017, 08:52:14 PM »
Well then how do you explain Christ saying to that generation, his contemporaries, that he was a sign. Obviously generation meant those people who were there in Jerusalem and would be there for the next 40 years. What does a generation mean there?

"For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."
Luke 11:30

A generation is 40 years.

Eschatology / Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Last post by Terrell Meyer on June 23, 2017, 06:49:27 PM »
 :o I didn't know Sam Storms was once a Premillemnnialist.  That just goes to show God will call his sheep out from the wolves anywhere. See, you learn something new every day.

John Walvoord may be academically well known, but anyone who s read his books can see his methodology is  amateurish at best. Why Premillennialists swear by him is beyond belief, considering the wild premises in his books.

It's obvious from the use of the term "generation of vipers" that Christ is not referring to just those people at that time, unless you thing he was saying this 40 years of vipers, as if there are no vipers after 40 years. To me, that doesn't make sense. Family of vipers makes sense and as other already said, fits perfectly with them being children of the devil. Christ was calling them the devil's family.

Psalms 58:3-4 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear."

This is the generation of vipers, a generation that will not pass until all be fulfilled.
Eschatology / Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Last post by Soldier on June 23, 2017, 09:10:25 AM »
Trevor, I don't have to study the Bible. That's why they have Seminaries and scholars like Dr. John Walvoord.

Journey away from Premnillennialism and John Walvoord
by Sam Storms

Although I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was regularly exposed to Scripture, I can't recall ever hearing anything about a “millennial” kingdom, much less the variety of theories regarding its meaning and relationship to the second coming of Christ. Like many of my generation, my initial exposure to biblical eschatology was in reading Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth during the summer of 1970.

Not long thereafter I purchased a Scofield Reference Bible and began to devour its notes and underline them more passionately than I did the biblical text on which they commented. No one, as I recall, ever suggested to me there was a view other than that of the dispensational, pretribulational, premillennialism of Scofield. Anyone who dared call it into question was suspected of not believing in biblical inerrancy.

Questioning Premillennialism

Upon graduating from The University of Oklahoma in 1973, I began my studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. My professors were a Who's Who of dispensational premillennialism: John Walvoord (then president of DTS), Charles Ryrie (author of Dispensationalism Today and The Ryrie Study Bible), and J. Dwight Pentecost (author of perhaps the most influential text on the subject at that time, Things to Come), just to mention the more well-known. Anything other than the dispensational premillennial perspective as found in Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and taught in the many DTS classrooms was considered less than evangelical. The only thing I recall hearing about amillennialism, for example, was how dangerous it was given the fact that it was popular among theological liberals who didn't take the Bible very seriously.

Robert Gundry's book The Church and the Tribulation was released in 1973, the same year I began my studies at Dallas, and it fell like a theological atom bomb on the campus. Everyone was reading it, and more than a few were being drawn to its post-tribulational perspective on the timing of the rapture. Debates in the classroom, cafeteria, and elsewhere were abundant and quite heated. Someone obtained a copy of Daniel Fuller's PhD dissertation in which he critiqued the hermeneutics of dispensationalism, and more gasoline was thrown on the fire.

Upon my graduation from Dallas Seminary in 1977 I immediately immersed myself in a study of all aspects and schools of eschatological thought. Over the next few years, the two most influential and persuasive volumes I read were The Presence of the Future: The Eschatology of Biblical Realism by George Eldon Ladd (himself a historic premillennialist), and Anthony Hoekema's book The Bible and the Future (Hoekema was an amillennialist). It is worth noting here that the distinction between Israel and the church, on which dispensationalism is largely based, could not withstand either Ladd or Hoekema's relentless assault.

My Unpardonable Sin

It wasn't long before Ladd, Hoekema, and Gundry, together with a few others, had persuaded me that there is no basis in Scripture for a pre-tribulational rapture of the church. That was, in the eyes of many, bad enough. Indeed, I distinctly recall the horror (trust me, “horror” is by no means an exaggerated term to describe the reaction I received) in my church when I made it known that I could no longer embrace a pre-tribulation rapture. More than a few were convinced that I was well on my way into theological liberalism! But when in the early 1980s I abandoned premillennialism in all its forms, public reaction was such that you would have sworn I had committed the unpardonable sin. I'm not suggesting that all or even the majority of dispensational premillennialists feel this way today (I hope and pray that few do), but the atmosphere in the 1970s and 1980s was something less than amicable for those who departed from the accepted eschatological faith.

My departure from premillennialism and embrace of amillennialism was gradual and came as a result of two discoveries as I studied Scripture. First, I devoted myself to a thorough examination of what the New Testament said would occur at the time of Christ's second coming (or parousia). What I found was a consistent witness concerning what would either end or begin as a result of our Lord's return to the earth. Sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, and the inauguration of the New Heavens and New Earth would ensue. But why is this a problem for premillennialism? Good question.

Scriptural Challenges for Premillenialists

If you are a premillennialist, whether dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

• You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming.

• You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man.

• You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

• You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

So what's wrong with believing these things, asks the premillennialist? What's wrong is that these many things that premillennialists must believe (because of the way they interpret Scripture), the NT explicitly denies. In other words, in my study of the second coming of Christ I discovered that, contrary to what premillennialism requires us to believe, death is defeated and swallowed up in victory at the parousia, the natural creation is set free from its bondage to corruption at the parousia, the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately following the parousia, all opportunity to receive Christ as savior terminates at the parousia, and both the final resurrection and eternal judgment of unbelievers will occur at the time of the parousia. Simply put, the NT portrayals of the second coming of Christ forced me to conclude that a millennial age, subsequent to Christ's return, of the sort proposed by premillennialism was impossible.

The second factor that turned me from premillennialism to amillennialism was a study of Revelation 20, the text cited by all premillennialists in support of their theory. Contrary to what I had been taught and long believed, I came to see Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the amillennial perspective.

My eschatological journey and biblical defense of amillennialism may now be examined in greater detail in my book, Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative (Mentor, 2013).
Apologetics / Re: What is Good Christian Stewardship
« Last post by Reformed Baptist on June 23, 2017, 01:01:20 AM »
Hello fellow Believers,
 My Pastor says no because my first Christian responsibility is to my family, but I wanted to get other opinions if this is correct.

You must provide for your family, but you have to put God first. Providing for your family doesn't mean getting them the latest iPhone, trips to Hawaii, $300 sneakers, and a brand new car for graduation. This is what most Christians seem to think is providing for their family, and that's why they don't have anything left for the Lord's work. Including stamina because they work so hard getting all those things they claim they need for the family. There is a difference between want and need. All I can tell you is, put God first, and the rest falls into place.
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