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Author Topic: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians  (Read 546 times)

ZeroCool

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Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« on: April 18, 2017, 01:02:49 PM »
The Christians I talk with all seem to have differing opinions about eschatology, and particularly the millennial period. Please be patient with me with these questions, I'm a bit confused and just seeking answers. Why is there such a haze over the millennial period where it's particularly unclear what is the truth? Trying to sort this out is like trying to get through a complicated maze with all the different opinions, paths, beliefs and blocked pathways. Why don't Christians agree on a single point of view if the millennial kingdom is so obvious and prominent in Christianity? Thanks for your indulgence.

aquatic

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 11:05:31 PM »
Why don't Christians agree on anything?!


http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/denomin.html

ZeroCool

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 11:03:06 AM »
Thanks for replying aquatic, I will be checking out that article today. As for why Christians don't agree on anything? I don't know, but I think they agree on a lot of things, just not on subjects like the millennial period, what constitutes grace, or the eschatology of Israel. At least that's where I see the most disagreement.

Reformer

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2017, 12:07:32 AM »
As for why Christians don't agree on anything? I don't know, but I think they agree on a lot of things, just not on subjects like the millennial period, what constitutes grace, or the eschatology of Israel. At least that's where I see the most disagreement.

Speaking in Tongues, Spanking Children, Divorce and Remarriage, Guardian Angels, Free Will, Tattoos, Heresy, Trump, Women Pastors, Lost Salvation, Gambling, Modesty, Decline of the Church, Homosexual Inclusion, Drinking, Racism, Miracles, Evolution, Birth Control, Age of the earth... and that's just for starters :)

My take is that there such a haze among Christians about eschatology because Christians (like everyone else) are hard headed, stubborn and very traditional. Remind you of anyone (hint: National Israel). Only by grace of God do we accept the real truth and reject all these eschatological tall tales and fictions.

Soldier

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 12:15:28 AM »
I don't know, but I think they agree on a lot of things, just not on subjects like the millennial period, what constitutes grace, or the eschatology of Israel. At least that's where I see the most disagreement.

Speaking in Tongues, Spanking Children, Divorce and Remarriage, Guardian Angels, Free Will, Tattoos, Heresy, Trump, Women Pastors, Lost Salvation, Gambling, Modesty, Decline of the Church, Homosexual Inclusion, Drinking, Racism, Miracles, Evolution, Birth Control, Age of the earth... and that's just for starters :)

aaaaaahhhhhhh, Yeah! :)
   Though I don't understand how any Christian could possibly disagree with Homosexual Inclusion. You'd have to be blind.

I just think Christians are human, and so they are biased. If you grow up in a Baptist household, you're probably going to hold to baptist traditions. If you grew up in a Catholic household, you'll probably hold to Catholic traditions. If a Reformed household, then Reformed traditions. We are products of our environment to a certain degree. I know some Christians hate hearing that, but it's true. It's hard breaking years of tradition.


ZeroCool

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2017, 12:35:01 AM »
Well looking at that list, I guess you're right  :thinker:

I think I might be looking at it with rose colored glasses, there is a lot of disagreement. Well that's sad.

aquatic

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2017, 04:51:28 AM »
There's approximately 40,000 denominations. Take your glasses off.

Tony Warren

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2017, 06:39:05 AM »
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The Christians I talk with all seem to have differing opinions about eschatology, and particularly the millennial period.
<<<

That's the key word, "opinions!" Opinions are seldom the same. Not to sound arrogant, but God's word is not subject to anyone's opinions, including mine. There are entirely too many "opinions" in the church and not enough acceptance of the "witness of Scripture." In other words, acceptance of man's opinion of what Scripture means, and not of what Scripture actually says. I see very little Biblical validation of the different views held, only a lot of vain justifications of them (Formula: God said A and B, but He actually meant C.) In reality, if we accept what God actually said, then there is no reason for added personal opinion. God said that Christ came and established His Kingdom, rules in it as Lord now, and those who are saved live and reign with Him in this established New Testament Israel. There's no need for opinions of Him coming to establish and reign in another Kingdom on earth. God's word explicitly says He is reigning now and His kingdom is now, and His people reign with him in that kingdom. Man's personal opinions about another millennial period is a private interpretation, not something validated by His word.

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Let God's word always be counted as the unassailable truth, and man's word contradicting it must be seen for what it is. A lie! Or to put it another way, every man's declaration, opinion or interpretation that contradicts God's word is false. This sound judgment between God's word and man's is what Christians are lacking today. Not deeming words that contradict God's word to be a lie, but rather just another possible view, a valid opinion or at best, misguided. Thinking truth uncharitable, it is never a lie, which is what it actually is. People as so qick to accept unbiblical (unvalidated) views so that they can "continue" to espouse their views without condemnation, censure or reprobation. But that doesn't make it an honest difference of opinion among Christians, it is a form of deceit or willful dishonesty. That's not a popular thing to say, but I believe that it is a very accurate dipiction of much of the church today.


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I'm a bit confused and just seeking answers.
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 :L-candle: Aren't we all!


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Why is there such a haze over the millennial period where it's particularly unclear what is the truth?
<<<

Here's my take. The haze over the millennial understanding is a man made fog. An obfuscation of tuth by means of selective (dishonest) handling of Scriptures that pertain to it. I know Christians like to say it's just an honest difference of opinion, but there's really nothing honest about it, particularly from those who have studied the issue for years. Actually, it's not really unclear where the truth is (my opinion), it's just that people are carnal by nature and most don't really want the truth, they want justification of what they have been tauught or for what they believe. Therefore, whatever view that best conforms to what they have been taught, they readily accept despite the FACT that there is really no real biblical justification for it. I say unequivocally that there is absolutely no "real" Biblical justification for Premillennialism, Preterism or Postmillennialism because God's word doesn't ever contradict itself or teach two entirely different views of the millennium. God being infallible, at best only one eschatology can be correct, and "by definition" that would be the one that Christ taught--which is today labeled Amillennialism. No other eschatology passes the "what God actually said, and prophesy fulfills" test. All the others fail miserably, and are based on world views, assumptions, subjection, conjecture and speculation. If the Lord didn't say it, and Scripture doesn't confirm it, then it's man's private interpretation.

Ezekiel 22:28
  • "And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken."

If God's word doesn't say it, then the doctrine is suspect right off the top. We could give example after example of professing Christians ignoring clarity, but for the sake of brevity I'll note only one. In Premillennialism there are millions of Christian evangelicals, led by their Zionist false prophets, who teach that the nation of Israel, who rejects Christ, are God's chosen people, when Scripture "Very Clearly" teaches that with the rejection of Christ national Israel fell as God's congregation and the kingdom was taken from them and given to the church. Despite the fact that this is all very clear in Scripture, these professing Christians feign ignorance or twist God's word so that it really has no meaning concerning God's judgment, the children destroyed, the curse of blindness, His going to the Gentiles and His kingdom taken from National Israel. It's as if God never said any of these things, and that so they may feel justified in holding opposing views. The point is, the fact that they delude themselves doesn't then mean that it's not "very clear" in Scripture that this teaching that Christ will come again to establish an earthly kingdom is in error. It only reveals how national Israel isn't the only people with an obstinate heart, that in their deceit they reject the truth. The church is following in the same footsteps, confirming that there is nothing new under the sun. Even in the parables Christ taught, if we are honest with ourselves, their meaning is abundantly clear, but only if we have the Spirit of truth to recognize truth. The parable of the Vineyard, where the householder has farming stewards who killed His son (Matthew 21:33-43), and the householder returns and destroys the wicked farmers who killed his son, and then let out his vineyard to other farmers. The meaning is clear to everyone except those who will not receive its message "because" they don't really like what it says. That's the haze over the Scriptures, the dark cloud of obscurity brought about by man himself.


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Trying to sort this out is like trying to get through a complicated maze with all the different opinions, paths, beliefs and blocked pathways.
<<<

But even a maze has a way out, and the only way out is to take the correct path. It's a systematic procedure that alone leads to the way out of the maze. Truth doesn't teach there is no correct path out of the maze, or teach that all paths have a little part of the correct way out, or that we shouldn't worry about getting out because we'll all get out "by and by." You see there is a right and a wrong way, there is truth and there are lies, there is indeed a kingdom of Christ but it is not carnal, not fleshly, not situated upon a pile of dirt in the middle east where it comes observable to everyone (Luke 17:20-21), it is within us. We only have to receive the truth of what Christ said about it. That we were translated into it and are dwellers there. It came when He said it came. Anything else is man's personal opinions.

Colossians 1:12-13
  • "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
  • Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

Meaning Christ's millennial kingdom has come, and we were (and are) being translated or transferred into it. There never was a prophesy that Christ would establish a carnal or fleshly earthly kingdom on this sin cursed earth. This was always what was prophesied. When we were transferred from the power of Satan into the Kingdom of Christ, it's a real substantive Kingdom, not some fantasy kingdom we made up to fulfill prophesy. Prophesy was never of a future, earthly kingdom where flesh dwells, but a spiritual kingdom. Those teaching it is a kingdom that can be observed (an earthly one) are obviously in error (Luke 17:20) according to all pertinent Scriptures.  The fact is, we can't be transferred into a Kingdom that hasn't yet come, or that Christ hasn't yet fulfilled the prophesy about. If we are transferred into the Kingdom of Christ, then obviously Christ has already established His kingdom. Anything which contradicts that is not the truth and is contrary to God's word. So it's not really that complicated at all, it is man's stubborn refusal to receive what the word actually says that creates the fog. His attempts to make it complicated by "adding" his own little addendums, mirror fulfillment, and personal supplements and assumptions to what is written.


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Why don't Christians agree on a single point of view if the millennial kingdom is so obvious and prominent in Christianity?
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For the same reason Christians like Chocolate, Vanilla and Strawberry Ice Cream. They have different "opinions." Opinions are all well and good for selecting which Ice Cream you want, but not for selecting which eschatology you want. Opinion really should not enter into it, the starting point should be which one is 100 percent consistent with what God's word says, and which are based on subjection, secular evidences or assumptions.

Nevertheless, as I said, all Christians have feet of clay. And different people come to truth at different times, as God permits. That doesn't mean that there is no one truth, but is a confirmation that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The way we overcome the flesh is by being humble towards God's word to let the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of truth, overrides our own will, ego and vanity, and guides us into His truth. It's the same question as asking, "Why are there so many Denominations," or "Why are there so many different interpretations about grace?"  It's because human beings find it rather difficult to "unlearn" what they have previously been told, learned or believed. Not because the truth is unclear, but because they are settled in their own ideas. It's like talking to someone who is set in their ways, it's a difficult conversation. But we have to grow in grace, and that means being as the Bereans and receiving truth, even when it is contrary to what we have been taught.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Oneil

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 06:10:25 PM »
   Though I don't understand how any Christian could possibly disagree with Homosexual Inclusion. You'd have to be blind.

You'd be surprised at what Christians can believe. We actually had a woman here a while back named Judy who got really upset over this exact issue, as well as the Catholic issue, and she left the forum in a huff because of it. So do not underestimate what Christians can rationalize in their minds. I don't understand how Christians can rationalize a lot of things, but they do.

ZeroCool

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 02:01:49 AM »

Thank you all for your comments, I just am just learning a lot about different groups. I read on a reformed Christian tweet that Postmillennialism and Amillennialism are like the fraternal twins of eschatology. From what I read on this site, it seems the authors don't agree with that. Am I correct?

Admin

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2017, 03:00:42 AM »

Oneil, Please do not talk about former members of the forum who are not here to defend themselves.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Oneil

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 05:06:32 AM »
 :Goodpoint: Sorry, won't happen again.

Kenneth White

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2017, 07:35:52 AM »
:Goodpoint: Sorry, won't happen again.

 :God:Bl-U: Now that's how it's done! Some of you could learn a lesson from Oneil.
 
There are life lessons we learn by experience, there are lessons we learn from our parents, there are lessons we learn the hard way through disciplines and chastisements, and then there are lessons we learn from the example of others. Well done Oneil. I'll bet it didn't hurt a bit :)

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I read on a reformed Christian tweet that Postmillennialism and Amillennialism are like the fraternal twins of eschatology. From what I read on this site, it seems the authors don't agree with that. Am I correct?

Zerocool, God bless you for your inquisitive and inquiring spirit. We can't learn anything if we don't inquire. You'd probably get a 50/50 answer here on that question, but I believe the scriptures teach us that these two views are as far away from each other as night and day. Postmillennialism believes the kingdom is now but there is a golden age of the kingdom of Christ coming where things will be great, Amillennialists believe that the great millennial age of the kingdom is now, and the only age to come is Christ's return to judge. The Millennial has been going on since the cross and millions have been brought into this glorious kingdom, which is drawing to an end, rather than progressing to a golden age. So no, they're not twins, and since one of these doctrines is not of God (God doesn't contradict himself), they're not even related.

It's my view Postmillennialists want their cake, and eat it too, not so much difference from Premillennialism. They see things in scripture that are not there.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Diane Moody

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2017, 11:03:09 AM »
There are life lessons we learn by experience, there are lessons we learn from our parents, there are lessons we learn the hard way through disciplines and chastisements, and then there are lessons we learn from the example of others. Well done Oneil.

 :ditto:  Love what you said Kennth, I'm going to tweet it.


ZeroCool

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Re: Why is there such a Millennial Haze or Maze among Christians
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2017, 01:22:17 PM »
It's my view Postmillennialists want their cake, and eat it too, not so much difference from Premillennialism. They see things in scripture that are not there.

True, but aren't their views very similar to Amillennialist? They both believe the kingdom of Christ came when Christ lived and went to the cross. Doesn't that separate them from Premillennialists?

 


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