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Author Topic: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled  (Read 16444 times)

BethLLives

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This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« on: May 20, 2004, 04:18:03 PM »
Shalom everyone  :)
I have been studying a generation.
I would like to share some thoughts with you and see what your thought about it is.
I was thinking about in Matt. ch. 1 where the generations are given unto Christ.
From Abraham to David 14
From David to the carrying to Babylon away 14
From the carrying away of Babylon unto Christ 14
One of the things that seem to be a factor in the generations is every 14 Generations marks when power was changed a kind of changing of the guard so to speak.
I know by history that Judah was taken into Babylon about 586 BC
Now if you divide that by 14 you come to 41-42 yrs being a generation.
Also when you add all the generations unto Christ it is 42.
I heard that from the tabernacle of David unto Solomons Temple was 42yrs.
Also I think if you look at one day with the Lord is a thousand yrs one hour would be about 42 yrs.
I have also pondered the way David seemed to be a foreshadow of Christ first coming.
Like the shepherd who would become the anointed king.(first coming)
How Solomon was rich in wisdom power and glory.(second coming)
How Solomons wisdom was first displayed with the 2 woman and the one child. How perhaps the child was a foreshadow of Jerusalem and the one would rather cut it in two and the other wanted it kept whole so it would live. And Solomon gave it to the one who loved it because her love for it proved the rightful owner. The same way with Jerusalem where God will see to it that it is in the hands of His people who love her (Jerusalem).Another interesting foreshadow of 42 is in Numbers 33 marks the journeys of the children of Israel. So it tells us all the places that the children of Israel camped. Now if you count all their encampment, you would find there are 41, unto the banks of the river Jordan.When Joshua crossed the Jordan it is perhaps symbolic. If a generation is between 41-42 yrs. at the end of the 41st and at the beginning of the 42 perhaps Jesus(Yashua) leads His people into the promise land (New Jerusalem).
If 42 has anything to do with a generation I think that generation started with Jerusalem. Jerusalem had to be in Israels hands before the rest of prophesy could come to pass. This is meant in general time frames for I know we know not the day nor the hour.
If this might be the general time of a generation that would put the last 7 yrs of the 42 years in the time frame somewhere from 2002 to 2008-2009. I am just pondering these things like I do many things .
Also in Matt 1 in the generations.
I began to see what I was looking at was 3 dispensations of time.
If you notice it was divided into three dispensations of time and within each there were 14 generations.
Christ being the 42nd generation.
Then this brought to mind the book of Daniel also Revelation you read where there is examples of using
dispensations of time. It says time , times ,dividing of time.
I know most see this as 3 I/2 years as I use to also see it.
Maybe what is being said is 3 dispensations of time and the dividing of a dispensation of time.
I as I was studying this I began to see how many important symbolic factors began to emerge.
I will try to be as clear as I can which can be difficult when dealing with numbers.
Remember I brought up 586 years from the captivity unto Christ.
How when you divide it by 14 it comes to 41.85 years which is just short of 42.
I used Matt 1 as a tool to look deeper in the generations.
I used 586 yrs to represent a dispensation of time.
Here is a chart to help understand something I discovered:14 generations = 586 yrs. = one dispensation of time
14 generations = 586 yrs = one dispensation of time
14 generations = 586 yrs. = one dispensation of time
06 generations = 251.1 yrs. = dividing of a dispensation of time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
48 generations = 2009.1 yrs. = time, times, dividing of time.
When I saw what it added up to I was amazed at something,
taking the last segment and instead of dividing it into two equal parts as 7 generations and 7 generations
I divided it into 6 generations and 8 generations.
Now I will focus on the 6 generations and the symbolic importance
As you know six is man and imperfection .
Also it represents the 6th day of creation.
It also brought to mind how for 6 days you work and the 7th is for rest.
What better time for Satan to attempt to take over than the in 6th generation?
If you remember Christ said the days had been shorten for the elects sake,
perhaps re-enforcing the dividing into 6 generations and 8 in the dividing the dispensation of time instead of equally.
Then I began to investigate this further and took the last generation (the 6th) and noticed it began in 1967.
The next thing I did was to look at it in whole with all 48 generations.
What better time for our Lords return then in the 49th the Jubilee generation?
I then read Lev.25 where we learn about Jubilee and the kinsman redeemer.
I was amazed , please read it with this in mind.
I then took 2009 and divided it by Jubilees to see how many Jubilees there are and it came to 41 Jubilees
leaving the 42nd to be the time of our Lords return.
So here you have the 49th Jubilee generation and the 42nd Jubilee accruing at the same time ready for Christ.
Now I see even more importance to the 41 and 42 time frame.
I thought also about Joshua and the 41 encampments and then the crossing over the Jordan to go into the promise land being symbolic of Christ and His return and the numbers 41 and 42.
These numbers 41 and 42 came into Christ life from the beginning because I discovered Christ must have been 41 to 42 days old when He first went to the Temple to be dedicated.
Based on the law after a woman gives birth to a boy.
7 days she is unclean and 33 more for purifying. This lead me to think it had to be the 41st or 42nd day that they dedicated Him.
It also came into mind that Christ walked here 40 days after His resurrection so that leads me to think He ascended into heaven on the 41st day. I then remembered what the angels said " why do you marvel the same way He left He would return.
Well I hope I didn't confuse anyone with all this , I hope you will think about it and tell me your thoughts.
Shalom v'brachas,
BethLLives
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Chris

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 05:11:48 PM »
I have one question. What biblical justification can you give to show that the 14 years from abraham to David, or David to Christ is a dispensation?

BethLLives

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2004, 09:07:04 AM »
Shalom Chris,
 From Abraham to David was 14 generations ,from David to the carrying away to Babylon was 14 generations from the carrying away to Christ was 14 generations not 14 years.
A dispensation of time is simply saying blocks of time.
There were 3 blocks of time and within each block of time there were 14 generations.
I hope I cleared up the matter for you.
Shalom v'brachas  :)
BethLLives
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Elect Lady

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2004, 10:34:37 PM »
If "this generation" in the gospels always refer to the generation being spoken to,  the fulfillment of "all things written" (Lu.21:22), occurred in the generation of the disciples!

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!


Elect Lady,
Our Lord Jesus Christ,  is the blessed and only Potente, the King of Kings, and Lord of lords...

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom "no man" HATH SEEN, NOR CAN SEE:
to whom be honour and power everlasting. A'men. 1 Timothy 6:16

Robert Powell

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2004, 11:12:20 PM »
If "this generation" in the gospels always refer to the generation being spoken to,  the fulfillment of "all things written" (Lu.21:22), occurred in the generation of the disciples!

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!


Elect Lady,

You are clearly wrong, since all has not been fulfilled. There is plenty to be fulfilled.

 Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So it's impossible that this spoke of a generation the way Preterists understand the term. In fact, it makes a mockery of Matthew 24 to think it all is past fulfilled. Listening to them, one would think this is the only chapter that speaks of these things.


Reformer

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2004, 07:23:09 AM »
You are clearly wrong, since all has not been fulfilled. There is plenty to be fulfilled.

 Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So it's impossible that this spoke of a generation the way Preterists understand the term.


Very true. And this trumpet at the return of Christ clearly goes hand in hand with the trumpet at the last day when at the sound of the trumpet the lord will come with his angels to rapture the Church. It's at the last trump we all are changed and Christ comes with His angels. How anyone can think this all has been fulfilled boggles the mind. The Preterist view is full of holes.


Elect Lady

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2004, 12:10:43 PM »
Hi Robert Powell and Reformer,

You can certainly disagree, but except you can prove...

1. This Generation, do not refer to "the generation" to which it was spoken.

And/or

2. The desolation of Jerusalem (Lu.21:20), have not occurred wherby "all things written" have been fulfilled (Lu.21:22)  you are wrong!


Albeit, if the desolation of Jerusalem have occurred, "all things written have been fulfilled" according to (Lu.21:22)!


Have "the desolation of Jerusalem" occurred?

A simple Yes or No, will do!


Elect Lady,
Our Lord Jesus Christ,  is the blessed and only Potente, the King of Kings, and Lord of lords...

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom "no man" HATH SEEN, NOR CAN SEE:
to whom be honour and power everlasting. A'men. 1 Timothy 6:16

kohathe

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2004, 02:04:10 PM »
Elect Lady:

What you fail to see is that the destruction of Jerusalem is not in view in these verses.  Which verse speaks about the destruction of Jerusalem?  And even IF (hyopthetically speaking) Jerusalem were in view, nothing about it has anything to do with the fulfillments spoken of in Luke and Matt. concerning the end of the world.  The phrase "this generation" then would have to mean the whole NT period, then we get continuity.  I hope this helps. 

Reformer

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2004, 02:23:27 PM »
Hi Robert Powell and Reformer,

You can certainly disagree, but except you can prove...

1. This Generation, do not refer to "the generation" to which it was spoken.

And/or

2. The desolation of Jerusalem (Lu.21:20), have not occurred wherby "all things written" have been fulfilled (Lu.21:22)  you are wrong!

People can only present scripture, they cannot make you accept it as proof. But many people have given scripture proving Preterism to be horribly wrong, but that doesn't deter anyone from believing it anyway.

 But I still say that any rational person should be able to conclude that all the things in Matthew 24 have not been fulfilled. There hasn't been greater tribulation in 70 ad than the world has ever seen, nor will ever see. That's just not true at all no matter how much they fudge the prophecy. There hasn't been a time when the Lord has shortened the days or else no one on earth could be saved in 70 Ad. That is just not true either. The Lord didn't come in the clouds and every eye see him in 70 ad. So that's not true either. Everyone didn't look up and see the lord come as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west. That didn't happen in 70 ad. In Christ's coming with his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, these angels didn't gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. That just didn't happen in 70 ad. And so on and so forth. So you can protest about this preterist doctrine all you like, but the facts of scripture speak for themselves. You cannot just spiritualize the whole chapter of Matthew 24 away on a whim. You have to have solid biblical reason to do so. And that's the difference between Amillennialists and Preterists.

 Matthew 24:21-22
 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

It's absurd to claim that this was fulfilled in 70 ad.


Quote
Albeit, if the desolation of Jerusalem have occurred, "all things written have been fulfilled" according to (Lu.21:22)!
Have "the desolation of Jerusalem" occurred?
A simple Yes or No, will do!

Yes, at the cross. That's when Jerusalem was left desolate and the Jews left blinded in part. That's when the Jews were branches cut off from the olive tree. Not 70 ad, the Jews were already judged long before then.

And there was no holy temple in Jerusalem in 70 ad to be desolated anyway. The holy temple in 70 ad was the church, not a house full of people who would never obey God and who hated Christ. How could that be God's holy temple over 30 years after Christ died making it nothing but a pile of bricks? So the whole thing makes no sense by scripture.

Bradley

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2004, 02:26:59 PM »
>>>Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled?  All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!<<<


You are claiming the generation has passed?  You are claiming all things described in Luke 21:5-36 have been fulfilled?

Luke 21:9
9   But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

So where is the end?  Has the end come and gone already?

Luke 21:25-26
25   And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26   Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What were the signs in the sun, and in the moon?  When were the powers of heaven shaken?

Luke 21:27
27   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Are you saying Christ has come back already?

Bradley



preterist

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2004, 02:49:48 PM »
Quote
>>>Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, "This Generation" shall not pass away, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.

Till all "what" be fulfilled? All things written (Lu.21:5-36)!<<<

You are claiming the generation has passed? You are claiming all things described in Luke 21:5-36 have been fulfilled?

Yes, a biblical generation is around 40 years.


Quote
Luke 21:9
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

So where is the end? Has the end come and gone already?

The end is the end of the Old Covenant.

Quote
Luke 21:25-26
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What were the signs in the sun, and in the moon? When were the powers of heaven shaken?

Yes, figurative language. See the Sun/Moon/Stars thread.

Quote
Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Are you saying Christ has come back already?


Yes, depending on what type of Preterist you are this is speaking of "a" coming or "the" coming. Again, the OT describes many "comings" using clouds. Did Caiaphus see it in Matt 26:64? Did Jesus tell him he would?




Bradley

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2004, 03:08:11 PM »
>>>Yes, depending on what type of Preterist you are this is speaking of "a" coming or "the" coming. Again, the OT describes many "comings" using clouds. Did Caiaphus see it in Matt 26:64? Did Jesus tell him he would?<<<

preterist,

2 Peter 3:10-12
10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11   Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When does this happen or has it already happened as well?

Bradley

Chris

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2004, 03:54:16 PM »
Yes, a biblical generation is around 40 years.

The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible.


Quote
The end is the end of the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant church didn't start in 70 ad, it was established at Pentecost. The old being done away with and the new replacing it. Preterist, you've got your timing all mixed up.

 Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

You really should let the bible interpret when the new covenant or testament replaces the old.

Quote
Quote
Are you saying Christ has come back already?

Yes, depending on what type of Preterist you are this is speaking of "a" coming or "the" coming.

Ok, now we're back to heresy again.

 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


preterist

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2004, 05:02:14 PM »
Quote
2 Peter 3:10-12
10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11   Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When does this happen or has it already happened as well?

 

First the "what"

Heaven and Earth is an OT term used to describe the Old Covenant/Mosaic ecomomy.

Is 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.


Now what are the elements? Did Paul use this term anywhere else? Yes. The greek word for elements is used also in these verses and refers to the elements of the Old Covenant.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

So what burns up on the "day of the Lord"? The Old Covenant and all it elements.

Now for the "when".

10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Malachi tells us when the "day of the Lord" would occur.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
 


So Elijah gives us a time-frame. Who was/is Elijah? Jesus tells us who he was.

Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


Matt. 17:10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.


To further prove John was this Elijah:

Back to Mal. 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Luke in teaching on the birth of John says this about him:

Luke 1:17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

 




So the "day of the Lord" was to come in the time-frame of John the Baptist. The Heavens and Earth and the elements were to be burned up at the day of the Lord.

It wasn't until I learned the metaphoric use of scripture that these things started making sense.




preterist

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Re: This Generation Shall Not Pass Until All be Fulfilled
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2004, 05:21:34 PM »
Quote
The bible nowhere says that a generation is 40 years. That is your private interpretation of the bible

My private intepretation agrees with scripture. Do the math.

Matthew 1
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

So what do you believe scripture teaches concerning the length of a generation? Nothing?

Quote
The New Covenant church didn't start in 70 ad, it was established at pentecost. The old being done away with and the new replacing it. Preterist, you've got your timing all mixed up.

Lets use scripture to tell us.

Heb 8:13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


So according to the writer of Hebrews the Old Covenant has not passed yet. Hebrews was written around AD60's. 

Quote
Ok, now we're back to heresy again.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


No view of preterism believes the resurrection had already occured at the writing of this letter. Moot point.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



So has the Law and Prophets all been fulfilled? If so then Heaven and Earth have also passed. If not then we are still under the Law. Which do you choose?

 


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