[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: The Decline of the Church  (Read 10097 times)

andreas

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Gender: Male
  • Helpless, look to Thee for grace
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2004, 03:25:43 AM »
<<<I can say my church believes the same thing as the one in another state. So maybe it says more about your church than apostasy and decline.>>>

It is not your church or my church.The eternal invisible church is Christ's.It is His bride,the body of Christ, for which He paid a heavy price.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".Acts 20:28
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di˘ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Peng Bao

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2004, 03:30:56 PM »
These people preach the same jesus as you do, and the same message as you do. But just because you don't like rock music, you want to call them anathema?

Doug,
 Is there anything at all that you would consider decline or a bad thing for the church? It seems to be that you simply overlook every sin and claim we're all still Christians and worshiping the same god. God doesn't say that. He says those who are disobedient and fall away from the faith are not his people.

 Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 Just because someone professes that they know God doesn't mean that they do or that they worship the same Jesus. So according to the bible you are totally wrong in that. People deny Christ by their actions.


Quote
How quick is your church divided by schisms. The one truly Holy Roman Catholic Church is not divided.


Could that be because it's not the Church of Christ but is a kingdom at peace with itself because it's doctrines and leaders are apostate?


Quote
I can say my church believes the same thing as the one in another state. So maybe it says more about your church than apostasy and decline.

It says a lot about indoctrination, cultism and blind faith, but not a lot about faithfulness and truth. It says a lot about man ruling in the temple, but not a lot about endurance. I don't mean to be rude but it is a church that has long ago fallen away from the faith. Protestant churches are now following suit.




Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2004, 04:49:23 AM »
<<<I can say my church believes the same thing as the one in another state. So maybe it says more about your church than apostasy and decline.>>>

It is not your church or my church.The eternal invisible church is Christ's.It is His bride,the body of Christ, for which He paid a heavy price.

True enough Andreas, but there should be unity in the Church. Not the mixed up doctrines that you see in the Church now. You just read where one reformed church believes in Rock, and another of that same reformed church view says it's an abomination in the church. So there is no unity of doctrine in those churches. By contrast, the Roman Catholic church has one doctrine. You can't deny that.

 1 Cor. 1:13
  "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul."

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification itself.

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2004, 04:51:32 AM »
Quote
Could that be because it's not the Church of Christ but is a kingdom at peace with itself because it's doctrines and leaders are apostate?


No! It's one doctrine because it is one Church.

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2004, 11:46:06 AM »
Quote
Could that be because it's not the Church of Christ but is a kingdom at peace with itself because it's doctrines and leaders are apostate?


No! It's one doctrine because it is one Church.


Doug,

Maybe if you say it often enough and loud enough you can make it true?

You've been here long enough that I believe in your heart of hearts you know the RCC holds  some very wrong doctrines that have been brought to your attention many times.  Not the least of which is their authoirty of the Pope over the Word of God, practices of confessiions to men for repentance of sins, idolotry of saints... and the list goes on. 

Mar 7:7  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


Have you at least begun to read the Bible and study for yourself, and praying from your heart?  Remember no church can save anyone; the Lord only controls both eternal salvation as well as eternal damnation.

judy


'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

samhn

  • Guest
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2004, 01:19:41 PM »
When I think of Catholic church I see the image of Pope, Your Holy Highness, holding his hand high and dispensing his blessings to the boundless multitude of men and women, young and old bow down underneath his feet…and I see the image of Cardinals and Bishops in their beautiful purple robes with a hint of silent reverend smile to the dignitaries of the world slowly progressing unto holy of holies with holding their perpetual icon, naked body of Christ hung on the cross high above their glorious golden crown imbedded with precious stones…

Matthew 8:19-20 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Sam

John

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 536
  • Gender: Male
  • A man with God is always in the majority-John Knox
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2004, 08:18:04 PM »
Quote
When I think of Catholic church I see the image of Pope, Your Holy Highness, holding his hand high and dispensing his blessings to the boundless multitude of men and women, young and old bow down underneath his feet…and I see the image of Cardinals and Bishops in their beautiful purple robes with a hint of silent reverend smile to the dignitaries of the world slowly progressing unto holy of holies with holding their perpetual icon, naked body of Christ hung on the cross high above their glorious golden crown imbedded with precious stones…


When I think of the Roman Catholic church I see a corrupt man-made religious system that has nothing to do with Christianity, Christ or Truth. I see a church that rejects the authority of God's Word and follows the writings of its church fathers and Popes and holds to doctrines that are mere inventions of men. I do not see a single doctrine in this church that can be called biblical -- even those done in an apparent biblical fashion (sprinkling infants in baptism, communion) are done for erroneous reasons.


Some examples:

1. Human Tradition is Elevated to or Above the Word of God. 1545 AD.
2. Wrong Gospel, Wrong Message of Salvation.
3. Confession of Sins to Priest to Obtain Absolution of Sins.
4. Penance.
5. Priests.
6. Celibacy of Priests and Nuns. 1079 AD.
7. Confirmation.
8. Extreme Unction. 526 AD.
9. The Inquisition, Torture, Massacres, Murders, Wars. 1184 AD.
10. Transubstantiation. 1215 AD.
11. Adoration of the Host (wafer bread). 1220 AD
12. The Mass. 394 AD.
13. Other Mediators Between God and Man.
14. Prayers to Saints. 375 AD.
15. Purgatory. 593 AD.
16. Papal Infallibility. 1870 AD.
17. Indulgences. 1190 AD.
18. Idolatry = Making Images. 786 AD.
19. Mary Veneration. 431 AD.
20. Catholic Attitudes to the Bible. 1229 AD.
21. Peter as the Rock.
22. 15 Apocrypha Books Added to the Old Testament Bible. 1546 AD.
23. Names of Blasphemy. 350 AD.
24. Rosary Prayer Beads. 1090 AD.
25. Low Moral Standards.
26. Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary.
27. Crossing Oneself. 300 AD.
28. Peter the First Pope
29. Roman Catholic Lies, Immorality, Corruption.

What you find in the historical Catholic church's papal leadership are the endless fighting and wars between popes and kings and popes against popes. A history of corruption and the buying of papal offices, inquisitions and the massacres of untold millions; the crusades, death, torture or imprisonment for speaking or writing the truth; condemnation of Bible reading, condemnation for making Bible translations, the dark ages with disease, poverty, and ignorance under Catholic power, removal of religious freedoms, removal of freedom of speech and of the press. The history of the popes include such sins as rape, adultery, fornication, incest, murder, assassinations, robbery, conspiracy, bribery, fraud, perjury, and the purchase of the papacy with money and land on a grand scale.

A church history of corruption and greed combined with a history of ignorance and disdain for the Bible even up to this day. Yet most Catholics remain Catholics in the face of it all and continue to defend their unbiblical church traditions. Just as Jews and Muslims reject Christ and follow their own traditions so too the Catholic rejects or distorts Christ, teaching their own inventions, a useless and detestable false gospel.

It is an amazing thing that all this makes little or no impression on the devoted catholic -- they have found comfort in words and trappings of men. They have no fear of God in their eyes -- while they trample underfoot Christ they think they are endearing themselves further to Him -- how twisted and blind are men and oblivious to the jaws of hell that await all who seek to enter Christ's Kingdom by their own devising.

Though Jesus speaks to the Jews of His day He might as well have been talking to a Roman Catholic:

Mark 7:7-13
7  But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.
Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.
9  And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition.
10  For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death:
11  but ye say, If a man shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is Corban, that is to say, Given to God;
12  ye no longer suffer him to do aught for his father or his mother;
13  making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do.



john
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2004, 03:57:22 PM »
When I think of the Roman Catholic church I see a corrupt man-made religious system that has nothing to do with Christianity, Christ or Truth.

john

I'm not interested in your personal attacks, political agenda and Catholic bashing, I am interested in the alleged decline of the Church. Where is proof of it? The Church is the same today as it was hundreds of years ago. Where is the decline? You can't give an answer because you have no answer.

Scot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2004, 06:51:05 PM »
John wrote:
Quote
It is an amazing thing that all this makes little or no impression on the devoted catholic -- they have found comfort in words and trappings of men.

I think we are seeing an example of this now.

Doug wrote:
Quote
The Church is the same today as it was hundreds of years ago. Where is the decline? You can't give an answer because you have no answer.

I think it's more that you refuse to hear the answer because you're comfortable where you're at.

midas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2004, 09:03:25 PM »
Doug
Quote
I'm not interested in your personal attacks, political agenda and Catholic bashing, I am interested in the alleged decline of the Church. Where is proof of it? The Church is the same today as it was hundreds of years ago. Where is the decline? You can't give an answer because you have no answer.

It's not if the decline will happen, but when ... God said it will happen ...

Rev 11:7  And when they have finished their testimony, (The two witnesses) the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8  and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

The Bible is speaking of Satan destroying the church. It says that Satan (the beast) will be loosed from the bottomless pit after the 1000 years are fulfilled (which is the church age) and overcome the saints, killing the 2 witnesses (a picture of the church, which witnesses the Gospel to the world).

Is the decline happening now? Have you heard of these things happening 200 years ago? Could Satan be ruling here? Is this the beginning of the end?

1. Look at the RCC. Sex abuse scandals
2. Catholic priest resigned this summer amid allegations that he stole more than $1 million from his parish
3. National Catholic Register discovered two Catholic hospital systems were committing the induced-labor abortion procedure – live-birth abortion – on handicapped babies.
4. Gay bishop in Episcopal Church
5. Gay ordained misiters in many chruches
6. Women pastors in many protestant churches
7. 59% of Evangelical Americans deny the existence of the devil, saying that Satan is merely symbolic

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2005, 10:03:29 AM »
Doug
Quote
I'm not interested in your personal attacks, political agenda and Catholic bashing, I am interested in the alleged decline of the Church. Where is proof of it? The Church is the same today as it was hundreds of years ago. Where is the decline? You can't give an answer because you have no answer.

It's not if the decline will happen, but when ... God said it will happen ...

Rev 11:7  And when they have finished their testimony, (The two witnesses) the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8  and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.


Well that depends upon who you think Revelation 11 is talking about, doesn't it? You cannot think that your own private interpretation of the passage is the church view? No, that's your view of prophecy. Your view of the harlot. Your view of the witnesses. There is no decline in the catholic church other than the normal ebb and flow that has always existed in the church. You Protestants have created a monster and you have to feed it to keep it alive.


Quote
Look at the RCC. Sex abuse scandals

He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. Ever heard of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones or Jim Baker. They certainly weren't of the RCC but Protestant congregations, of whom there are thousands.  We have one true holy catholic Church, you have thousands of little pieces broken and scattered.

 Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

daryl halter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2005, 09:33:10 PM »
Doug,

  In my county,Salem County, in Southern NewJersey within the last 8 years they have closed the Catholic High School, and have taken the 3 or 4 Catholic elementary schools and combined them into one regional school because of decline in enrollment.  They are considering closing 2 of 8 parishes because of lack of people and funds.
  The news out of the Philadelphia Media talks of the controversy of closing parochial schools and closing of Parishes.
One group of parishioners showed up for Mass one Sunday and found that they had been locked out. Closed up shop.

No decline in the one true Catholic church?   And don't tell me their was no division among the parishoners.

The Catholic Church does not hold the sway in communities in this country the way it once did.  Is this because of a decline in the membership roles, same decline that Protestant Churches are experiencing?  Is it truly because of the moral decline of our nation? The failure of all churches to take a stand on the True Word of God?  Yes. 

Churches deny Him before men when they don't stand up for His Word.
And what did Jesus say: Matthew 10:32-33
32  "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
33  But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Also
Tit 1:16  They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

All churches need to wake up!!!!!

In Christ,
Daryl Halter

Mitchell

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2005, 01:56:24 PM »

Can we all agree that just because there has been a little spiritual decline in the churches, doesn't mean it's the end of the world? There was decline in the days of the reformation as well.

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2005, 01:13:46 AM »
1Ti 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


When even professing Christains no longer know up from down, right from wrong, and feel neither alarm nor sadness by the clear and rapid decline of institutional churches across all denominations, then it is no wonder that the world -- having no guideposts or 'light' that the church once provided--, is also going rapidly downhill.


Mat 5:13  Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


The churches are losing their 'salt', and the 'light' of the Gospel is being extinguished in many a congregation. And no real revival is in sight -- for only the Lord can grant true/godly repentence.

God's judgement will first come upon His house -- which is comprised of individuals, and is not confined to the walls of a building. 

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


Though the decline of the church is evident, this is also a time for looking inward, and for getting our own house in order.
Whether individually or as a group, it's only by the Grace of God that we stand or fall.

As parallels are often drawn between national Israel who were once the caretakers of the Gospel but were 'broken off' due to unbelief, and the NT church which shall also be judged before the Lord's return, I think much of this passage is relevant to us today, and should serve as a caution to us all.

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again....
Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2006, 08:33:00 AM »

Can we all agree that just because there has been a little spiritual decline in the churches, doesn't mean it's the end of the world? There was decline in the days of the reformation as well.

Or some think that the Reformation was the decline.

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]