[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: The Decline of the Church  (Read 10103 times)

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
The Decline of the Church
« on: October 05, 2004, 04:05:51 PM »
Well Mr. Warren is back and he has the same old lines. But who is Tony Warren and why is he always preoccupied with the Church being unfaithful? Doesn't he ever have anything good to say about the Church? Does God's prophets condemn his church?

 Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Those who speak against the Church are those to be very cautious about.

Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2205
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2004, 07:05:42 PM »
Quote
Well Mr. Warren is back and he has the same old lines. But who is Tony Warren and why is he always preoccupied with the Church being unfaithful? Doesn't he ever have anything good to say about the Church? Does God's prophets condemn his church?

Doug,

You do not need to know who Tony Warren is in order to understand biblical prophecies. Tony Warren has given us the scripture to show us why the church will fall during the Great Tribulation and leave us to decide for ourselves with our own bible study to see whether it is true or not.

Many people today, including my own relatives does not like what Tony or I explained about the fall of church during the Great Tribulation. Most of them are in denial or not even bother to study for themselves. They prefer to listen to more appeal doctrines like pre-millennialism as long as their church won't be harm before they will be raptured.  That is a lie. They just don't want to listen to the Truth and accused Tony Warren and others for being too 'judgemental' about their church or any church. However, we understood what we 'can' hear what the Bible is telling us. And we do not expect millions of christians to believe us.

Mat 24:15-26

* When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

* Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Not all christians will understand what is abomination of desolation. Only God will decide how it will reveal to each individual of His People. Not all of those people will know in one self same day.  Some will understand first before others. It is gradual thing. 

I suggest that you print all the related study that Tony Warren wrote, and helpful postings from other fellows. Then study with your Bible and pray about it.  Don't come out and condemn Tony Warren for who He is or what He believe. Like myself, he is just a witness of God's Word.

Peace,
Erik Diamond
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

andreas

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Gender: Male
  • Helpless, look to Thee for grace
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2004, 01:25:18 AM »
<<<why is he always preoccupied with the Church being unfaithful>>>

Because that is the truth.Look around you.We have ebraced false doctrines,salvation by free will,justification by works,rewards in heaven.We departed from the true gospel.Women preachers,homosexual bishops,lesbian and homosexual marriages,paedophile priests,anything but the truth.
These are dangerous times for the souls of men.
" Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer".
 1Tim.4:1-5. and,
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." 2 Tim.3:1-13

Christ said,
 "I have come in my fathers name and you received me not.if another shall come in his name,him you will receive".John 5:43.

The church is full of false prophets, and we flock to them because we like to hear what they say.Wordly doctrines are fashionable now.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2004, 03:09:07 AM »
The Lord said that I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. You're telling me that it will?  Does God's prophets condemn his church? No I don't think so. Those who speak against the Church are those to be very cautious about and are called wolves in sheep's clothing and false prophets. Because the church will not fail and Satan cannot overcome it. You all need to wise up.

We Speak truth in LOVE in the Holy Church. When Jesus used the expression, "the gates of hell" in Matt. 16:18, He was teaching that the church would never fall into error.

"Jesus Christ promised to preserve the Church from error. If His prediction and promises were false, then he would not be God, since God cannot lie. Christ said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it' If therefore the Church falls into error, the gates of hell certainly would prevail against it." (My Catholic Faith, p. 144).

If you really want peace, then where are you going to find it? In a church that even you admit is in error, or in a Church that the gates of hell can't prevail over and that always has peace? We Speak truth in LOVE.



andreas

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Gender: Male
  • Helpless, look to Thee for grace
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2004, 03:49:52 AM »
<<<'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'>>>

First,
Peter is not the rock.Who then is the rock?
Psalm18:2
Psalm 94:22
Psalm 28:1
Psalm 31:2,3
Psalm41:10
Psalm61:2
Psalm 62:6-8
Psalm 94:22
Deuteronomy 32:3,4

Christ is the solid rock not Peter.Peter's acknowledgement that Christ was the son of God, is the key.He will build His church upon that premise.

<<< When Jesus used the expression, "the gates of hell" in Matt. 16:18, He was teaching that the church would never fall into error. >>>

Now which church are you talking about?Are you talking about the eternal church or the external,temporary church?I think you are talking about a church defined by man,and not God.About a church described in" My catholic faith".That church has already fallen into error.
The gates of hell will not stop Christ buiding His eternal church.
andreas. 8)
kai ean diabainhs di¢ udatos meta sou eimi kai potamoi ou sugklusousin se kai ean dielqhs dia puros ou mh katakauqhs flox ou katakausei Isaiah 43:2

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2004, 04:14:29 AM »
Come on, you're playing games. The Church has been around for a thousand years and it will be around a thousand more. Where do you see all this evil in the church? The world is a much better place than it was a thousand years ago. People are being fed by the Catholic missions. Catholic Hospitals are healing the sick. You've all got money to spare in the bank. Or at least most people do. So stop trying to make like the Church has become all evil all of a sudden. It's much better.

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2061
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2004, 01:58:53 PM »
>>>
Well Mr. warren is back you have the same old lines.
<<<

Isaiah 28:10
  • "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

I'm sorry you don't like the "line upon line" Doug, but everyone is just not open to receive the truth of scripture about the condition that the Church should be in, versus the condition that it "is" in. As it is written, "For whom shall he teach knowledge, and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." -Isaiah 28:9. So the "whom" God teaches is in His providence, not mine.


Quote
>>>
But who is Tony Warren and why is he always preoccupied with the Church being unfaithful?
<<<

Tony Warren is nobody of import, simply a lowly witness of the gospel seeking to earnestly do the will of God. I testify to the truth of scripture--and that's enough.

Ephesians 3:8
  • "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;"

As the Apostle Paul did, I consider myself the least of all saints, given grace. Nothing more. Yet I am constrained to be a witness to the unfaithfulness of the Lord's people. And as for preoccupation with Church unfaithfulness, in fact it is the Church's preoccupied with the lusts of the world and unfaithfulness that is in need of examination. It is the Churches that are in rampant rebellion against God's word. I wish that some "were" preoccupied with the unfaithfulness of the Church. Maybe then many more might be brought to truth.

But your reaction is typical of the Church, for denial is the open sore on the plague-ravaged body of Christianity. The same type of denial that ravaged Old Testament Israel 2000 years ago (John 8:39-43). They thought they were worshiping God also, when all the time they were in denial of Him. And the same delusion is happening in our day. So many Churches believe that they are worshiping the God of the Bible, when in fact they are worshiping some "other god and preaching some other gospel."

1st Thessalonians 5:3
  • "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

That's a "warning" to the Church that there is a time coming when there would be a great deception, where professed Christians wrongly believe they have faith in Christ. They "think" they have peace with God and they "think" they are in safety in the arms of the Lord, when in fact they are those under the wrath of God and their feet are ready to slide. Their professions of faith is meaningless because they have fallen away from the faith.

You said it right in your original post, because "Satan is" the great deceiver and as such "he does" come through wolves "in sheep's clothing." The key is not to examine the clothing, but to compare their words with the word of God. It's the only sound way to know the difference between a messenger of God and a messenger of Satan. Selah. If what comes out of their mouths is actually quoted from the word, or is it opinion and interpretation. It's the only way to know a minister of righteousness from a minister of unrighteousness.

1st Timothy 4:1-3
  • "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
  • Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
  • Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

The Church today is giving heed or listening to enticing and deceiving spirits [planos], that seduce them. Seduce them just as a Harlot woman would seduce her clients. She deceives them by appearance and by the flesh, so that they think that what they are doing is good because it is pleasing. When in fact, it is to their damnation.

Yes, your reaction to such truths is typical of the Church. In fact it reminds me of the King of Israel and his reaction to the prophesy of God through Micaiah. He said he didn't want to enquire of this prophet because Micaiah always prophesied evil towards him (1st Kings 22:8 ). The fact is, Micaiah could only prophecy "faithfully what the Lord had said." And if the leaders of Israel didn't like it, that was just too bad. Should he have changed God's word of prophesy because of the disdain that this king had for them? Not at all. But that's the thing about reproof. To one, it's a goad unto righteousness. But to another, it's a firebrand causing God's judgment to come down upon Him. This hardness of heart is the foolishness that burns in the heart of man.

Proverbs 17:10-11
  • "A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
  • An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him."

Those who reject reproof of God's word and continue on in their rebellion are sent strong delusion concerning the gospel. And the reason is so they might be damned for "not believing the truth." Because of their abominations, the cruel messenger is sent among them to their desolation.

One of the oldest reactions to truth is for the hearer thereof to shoot the messenger (so to speak). Because they don't like the message. But if the Church today is unfaithful and in rebellion, we should not hesitate to say it is so. Not because we get some perverse pleasure from doing so, but because the trumpet must be blown whether men will hear or not hear. God knows that man is naturally stiffnecked and rebellious.

Ezekiel 2:4-8
  • "For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
  • And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
  • And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
  • And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.
  • But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee."

And the word that God puts in our mouth is as sweet as honey, but because it is a "word of judgment" upon this people, it makes our belly bitter. Nevertheless, we must prophesy again. Paul was sorrowful for his kinsmen according to the flesh (Jewish people), his belly was bitter, but that didn't stop him from preaching the truth, nor understanding that word he spoke was as sweet as honey. It is only the reprobate that will have disdain or hate for what God has to say.

Psalms 119:103-104
  • "How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
  • Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way."

I can tell you, my witness is not based upon how man will receive it (I know he won''t like it), but upon the God given desire that some might (by grace of God) receive the truth in love, and repent of this lawlessness and rebellion of God's house. For I hate every false way.

 How about you? 

Isaiah 30:9-13
  • "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
  • Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
  • Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
  • Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant."

Because someone despises this word and reviles those bringing it, shall Christians not speak it? And because the idea of a Church in apostasy is something foreign to many, shall we be silent about it so that they might "feel" comfortable? And because some people think they are married to the Church instead of Christ, shall we tell them that all is well and they shall have peace and safety in a house that is wanton? God Forbid!

Ezekiel 3:16-21
  • "And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
  • Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
  • When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
  • Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
  • Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
  • Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

The seven days are drawing to an end, the watchmen are blowing their trumpets, and Israel is going about its business as usual thinking it is in peace and safety. Throwing up their hands innocently declaring, "what evil have we done?" For they are deceived! Unfortunately Doug--you just don't get it. But we're praying, because with God, all things are possible.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Dave Taylor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2004, 02:23:52 PM »
andreas wrote to Doug:
Quote
Peter is not the rock.Who then is the rock?
Psalm18:2
Psalm 94:22
Psalm 28:1
Psalm 31:2,3
Psalm41:10
Psalm61:2
Psalm 62:6-8
Psalm 94:22
Deuteronomy 32:3,4

Christ is the solid rock not Peter

Here are some more....hopefully the first one will be enough to avoid ignorance...

I Corinthians 10:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."


Peter himself, gave the rightful designation of who 'the Rock is' to Jesus Christ, not to himself.


I Peter 2:6-8
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.  Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Luke 6:47-48
"Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock."

2 Samuel 23:3
"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God."

Deuteronomy 32:15, 30-31
" But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.  How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?  For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges."



Perhaps Doug will read this scripture; accept it; and realize that Jesus Christ; not Peter, is the Rock.


samhn

  • Guest
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2004, 12:25:12 AM »
Erik, Andreas, Tony, Dave…Amen.

I have been reading your postings with great respect and gratitude because they not only help me to focus on the things above but also give me the understanding to see the light from the darkness, the spirit of Christ from the spirit of the World, voice of Cross from voice from man, eternal body from corporate body, wheat from tares…salvation from damnation.

Oh, how I know about those churches; I was there for so long. I was watching abomination of desolation all those years without knowing what it was…and then I left my Presbyterian church not too long ago and it was my second salvation.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.  John 1:5

It is the story of fallen generations and it is being repeated two thousand years later.

Sam

P.S. The reason I didn’t post although I have been with you in my heart is that I am not very good at writing. Please remember me and my family in your prayer.



Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2205
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2004, 01:01:33 AM »
Sam,

Please feel free to post more whenever you like.  Don't worry about your writing skills. I thought
I am the worst writer on this forum due to my grammer skills.

Erik



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

judykanova

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Gender: Female
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2004, 02:36:01 AM »
Quote
P.S. The reason I didn’t post although I have been with you in my heart is that I am not very good at writing. Please remember me and my family in your prayer.

Sam,

Welcome to a fellow Californian! and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.  It doesn't sounds like you need any help expressing yourself.  You have well described what a good number here have experienced in churches we use to attend.  Those who put their faith in men (including the Pope who is but a man) instead of in God and His Holy Word --especially after repeated warnings -- is willfully ignorant.  

2Pe 3:3-7
3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Only the Lord knows for sure who belongs to Him.  And as Tony said, with God, all things are possible... as the salvation of the thief on the cross just before his death,
or the salvation of Crispus the chief ruler of the synagogue (Act 18-8) when most of national Israel was left desolate; (just as most of today's churches will be left desolate, save for a possible remnant. The Lord, even in times of judgment, seems to always reserve a 'remnant' -- not because anyone deserves it, but for His own sake and glory.

Rom 11:1-8
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
.

And there's God's provision for those elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, even in times of famine -- like the widow and her young son who the Lord sent Elijah to. 

1Ki 17:7-24
7 And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.
8  And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
9  Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
10  So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
11  And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
12  And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
13  And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
14  For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.
15  And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
16  And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.
17  And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
18  And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19  And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20  And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21  And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22  And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23  And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24  And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.


Moreover, the Lord God Almighty is not bound by time and space.  He records this event, for our benefit and consideration, where the laws of the universe are momentarily altered according to His purposes and good pleasure -- within the context of His salvation which no man should presume to know or judge beyond looking in the mirror.

2Ki 20:8-11
8  And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?
9  And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
10  And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
11  And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.



May God bless you and your family and all those here, according to His perfect will.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

samhn

  • Guest
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2004, 02:58:13 AM »
Erik, thanks, I will try. And, hi Judy,

While I was reading this thread, it occurred to me that it probably is not possible to see the present decisive apostasy of the church to them who do not see two different mode of church existence: invisible and visible, eternal and temporal, spiritual and physical, divine and human.

The meaning of Reformation was to be liberated from visible, temporal, physical, human authority of church to invisible, eternal, spiritual, divine authority of Word which is the beginning and ending of true Christianity.

IN THE beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

THAT WHICH was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 1 John 1:1


Sam

Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2004, 01:06:22 PM »
Perhaps it's just your church that's not growing but declining. Because I read all the time about reformed churches growing. Here's just one article.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041009213951/http://www.rca.org/news/archives/20041005.php

So maybe you guys just have your mind made up, and don't like church?

Proclaiming the Fullness of Christianity, the Church does not decline.

"The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)

Reformer

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1546
  • Reformed and Evangelical
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2004, 03:18:09 PM »
Doug, You hold this group of people up as an example of a church that is not declining? On the contrary, it is an example of the Churches decline and exactly what we're talking about.

In the first few lines they speak of a youth-driven "rock and roll" service in the evening. That's decline. These type people are exactly what is going wrong in the Church. They love themselves instead of God.

 2nd Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

 Of course this church is growing, because it's brought the world up into the Church so that it attracts the worldly. You think because they call themselves reformed that's going to mean something to us? This church is reformed in name only, not in the principles which characterized the reformation.

Of course the false prophets are going to say that there is nothing wrong with this. But if you cannot understand how teens Rocking and Rolling in God's house is a decline and an abomination, then there isn't much any of us can do for you. You lack the reverential love and respect for God that would reveal truth to you.

 Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

scripture and Love of God reveals Rocking and Rolling in God's house is an evil thing, while false teachers think they serve God this way.


Doug Johnson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: The Decline of the Church
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2004, 04:30:01 PM »

These people preach the same jesus as you do, and the same message as you do. But just because you don't like rock music, you want to call them anathema?

How quick is your church divided by schisms. The one truly Holy Roman Catholic Church is not divided. It is not in apostasy or decline and I can say my church believes the same thing as the one in another state. So maybe it says more about your church than apostasy and decline.

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]