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Author Topic: The Banner of Roman Catholicism  (Read 9946 times)

Robert63

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2004, 03:16:19 AM »
Don't you think that you are being a little hard on Roman Catholicism? It's not the only heresy. I'll grant you that it has some very heretical doctrines, but that's not the test of what is the true church. Shouldn't we have compassion upon these people? Isn't that how we show love?

 1John 3:17 and 19
   "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth".

Doctrines don't make anyone saved or not saved, so we should concentrate more on love of the truth, and less on doctrines which separate us. We're not saved by keeping the law. So you can't define the church by ones that are keeping the law.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2004, 12:23:51 PM »
>>>
Don't you think that you are being a little hard on Roman Catholicism?
<<<

How So? By examining their doctrines and warning the easily duped of its twisted and bankrupt character? Or by quoting their very own words, their catechism, their own Holy Grail of their church doctrine?

What would you have me do, say "this is the true church," or give false comfort saying "Peace, Peace, when there is no Peace?" No, rather I say there is no peace in this doctrine. Should I deceitfully lie or agree that these doctrines are the gospel of the grace revealed in Christ? That's the way of the world, not my way. When the way of the church is obstinate like the world, the law is the only path to return anyone to the wisdom of Christ. As with children, spare the rod, spoil the child. There is a "general" principle here. And this is what is wrong with the churches today. No discipline in preaching, teaching, instruction or correction.

Proverbs 13:14-16
  • "The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
  • Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.
  • Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly."

It's not I who tred the hard way, but Roman Catholicism. They have made their own bed, and they will have to lie in it. If we do nothing, or refuse to walk "faithfully" in Christ, we will be ripe to be seduced by such heretical doctrines, and spoiled through their worldly philosophies and traditions. It is in the establishment of the faith of Christ that reveals the heresies of this Church to God's servants. Christians don't need smooth words (Isaiah 30:8-11) that comfort the fallen, they need to hear the truth. Yes, the "truth" is a hard pill to swallow, because it is the deceitful and dishonest doctrines that are easy to take. The road that leads to life is "narrow," and it seems Christians today cannot/will not, understand exactly what that means.

Colossians 2:6-8
  • "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
  • Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
  • Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

God doesn't tell us to beware because we should just accept every form of church doctrine as inclusive to the body, He tells us to beware because we should be aware of the danger.


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>>>
It's not the only heresy.
<<<

So because this is not the only heresy, that means we should welcome it or give it comfort? I don't think so. That it is not the only heresy, is not the issue. Neither is it pertinent or germane to this discussion.

When someone tells me these church doctrines are not heretical, I am compelled to respond and expose the falsehood. The fact that many people will not like it, or may think I'm not being compassionate, will not alter my words. By scripture I understand that there will always be people who are offended by truth. Shedding light upon darkness is not sin, it is the essence of real true love, agape or the "charity" of Christ's church. The problem is, there are so many people spiritually asleep in the church today, that they wouldn't know agape/Christian charity from a basket of serpents. These are (Biblically speaking) foolish people who need to wake up and trim their lamps.

Ephesians 5:13-16
  • "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
  • Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
  • See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
  • Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."


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>>>
I'll grant you that it has some very heretical doctrines, but that's not the test of what is the true church.
<<<

If Roman Catholicism has heretical doctrines (by your own admission), then it is not the church preaching the gospel of Christ. For does the church of Christ preach heresy? Does the church of Christ preach sins can be purged in Purgatory? ..or is that another Christ, another gospel and another church? You see, Satan is the "Great Deceiver." That's the whole point here. He comes not as a wolf, but a wolf disguised as a sheep. Yes, there will be many people who look and see only a sheep. But it is those who examine doctrine and not go by feelings and their own thoughts who will "see" by the Spirit and know better. i.e., He may have horns like a lamb, but he speaks (doctrine) as a Dragon. Examine doctrine (1st John 4:1), for it is the test of a true church, the test of the true Christ, the test of the true gospel.

2nd Corinthians 11:3-4
  • "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
  • For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

God warned us to "Hold Fast" the doctrines of Christ, and not to compromise with false and heretical doctrines, but Christians are just not listening anymore. They think that they are smarter than God to know better than He does what we should do, and how we should embrace all forms of Churches. ..this is folly!

2nd John 1:8
  • "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
  • Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
  • If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
  • For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

If heresy in the Church is not the test of a true Church, then what is? It absolutely "is" the test of a true Church. And God (not I) said that those who "abide not in the doctrine of Christ," don't have God. We can spend most of our time convoluting what God says, and figuring out ways to make it null and void, but to what profit? I can't imagine the Apostle Paul saying to the Churches of His day, "Sure, these doctrines are Heretical, but let's not be to hard on them." The whole idea is Biblically absurd! But that's how far the Church today has fallen and departed from the true faith.


Quote
>>>
Shouldn't we have compassion upon these people? Isn't that how we show love?
<<<

You've got it all wrong. We (Christians) demonstrate our compassion towards people by faithfully preaching the gospel to them that they might repent and be saved. Not by telling them what they want to hear. If you go around trying not to offend anyone, you end up saying nothing. Because the gospel truth is an offense, not only to the unbelievers, but also to "MANY" professed children of God as well. It always has been. That doesn't mean you stop preaching the truth, it means you move on from those who will not "Receive" it (2nd Thessalonians 2:10) to the next opportunity. We don't deliberately offend anyone, but offenses will come regardless.

Matthew 15:11-14
  • "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
  • Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
  • But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
  • Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

You think the Pharisees were pleased at hearing Christ saying, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees?" No, not at all. But it's something which had to be said, regardless. Why? Because it is the leaven, it is the "DOCTRINES" that will destroy the people. Unfortunately, few understand that today. because they think they should be all about compassion, love and peace as "they" define those terms.


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>>>
Isn't that how we show love?
<<<

No. We show Love both to God and our fellow man by obedience. When we are obedient to God's Word (doctrines), we demonstrate our love for God, and thus to the people we're witnessing to that they may be drawn of God. Not my words, but this is God's definition of Love.

1st John 5:1-3
  • "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
  • By this we know that we love the children of God, When we love God, and keep his commandments.
  • For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

This is how we show love. We show it by holding fast His commandments. We show it by preaching His Word "unadulterated" to the people. We show it by having an earnest desire that they know Him as we know Him. This worldly touchy-feely carnal humanistic form of infatuation is not the love of God. It is not the love which we are to show to our fellow man.

Quote
>>>
1John 3:17 and 19
  "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth".
<<<

This world's good is Christ, He is our clothing, the Robe of our righteousness, and He is our sustenance, the hidden manna or bread, and the waters of life that quench our thirst. He is our riches, the gold tried in the fire. He is our good in this world that we want to share. Our brothers' real need is Christ, and only if we have the "Love of God" dwelling in us, will we distribute our goods to the spiritually poor. It is for the poor in spirit, for these shall be made rich thereby. As illustrated in the parable of the "Good" Samaritan. We don't hide our charity under a bushel, we share Christ's love with those in need. This is "true" charity and this is "true" compassion. If we merely say we are Christians, and do nothing to feed the poor spiritually, we don't have the love of God in us. It's all just the words of those loving in word, but not in deed and in truth. What the true Christian shares is worth more than physical gold, bread, or clothing.

Matthew 5:6
  • "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."
John 6:35
  • "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Selah!


Quote
>>>
Doctrines don't make anyone saved or not saved, so we should concentrate more on love of the truth, and less on doctrines which separate us.
<<<

How can one concentrate on the love of truth without concentrating on doctrine? Without doctrine, how do you know for sure what truth is? What said Christ? Search the scriptures! i.e., there's where you will find the truth in love. In the doctrines which God (not man) has laid down.

2nd Timothy 2:15
  • "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Again, how can one concentrate more on love of the truth, without studying doctrines? And the study is that they are approved of God, so that their misunderstanding of doctrine is brought to light and does not shame them.

You're right, doctrines don't make anyone saved. But doctrine tells us what it is to be saved, and how to discern when we are not truly saved. Ignore doctrine, and we might as well ignore Christ.


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>>>
We're not saved by keeping the law. So you can't define the church by ones that are keeping the law.
<<<

Correct, we're not. But keeping God's Word faithfully (as opposed to ignoring it) is the evidence of being saved.

1st John 2:3-6
  • "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments.
  • He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a Liar, and the truth is not in him.
  • But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: Hereby know we that we are in him.
  • He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Doesn't sound like true doctrine is unimportant to me. Rather, it sounds like it is an essential for the church.

...and indeed, why else would Christ warn us again, and again, and again, about false prophets, false teachers, and false apostles? Doctrine unimportant? Hardly.

nosce te ipsum"
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2004, 01:30:53 AM »
… You've got it all wrong. We (Christians) demonstrate our compassion towards people by faithfully preaching the gospel to them that they might repent and be saved. Not by telling them what they want to hear. If you go around trying not to offend anyone, you end up saying nothing. Because the gospel truth is an offense, not only to the unbelievers, but also to "MANY" professed children of God as well. It always has been. That doesn't mean you stop preaching the truth, it means you move on from those who will not "Receive" it (2nd Thessalonians 2:10) to the next opportunity. We don't deliberately offend anyone, but offences will come regardless.

Amen!

Better they be ‘offended’ now by the truth – and God perhaps opens the eyes of a few, than they become an ‘offense’ to the Lord on the day of judgment:

Prov 1:29-31
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

John 6:57-68
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. …
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


So it boils down to the simple realization that Simon Peter had in v.68 --  there IS no other way but the Lord’s way.  And ‘narrow' is that way.  Moreover,  WOE unto us if we don’t give faithful testimony to the Gospel of Christ – for there is no other Gospel.  So the reverse is also true -- Better to ‘offend’ some, than to risk ourselves becoming an 'offense' to the Lord:

Luke 6:25-27
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. ...

1 Cor 9:16
16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, WOE IS UNTO ME, IF I PREACH NOT THE GOSPEL!


Those who are overly concerned about not offending anyone, being ‘hot nor cold’ concerning matters of spiritual life or death (which Tony clearly demonstrated the issue of doctrines involving ‘works’ is),  are courting disaster.  The truth is, they ARE making a choice whether they like it or not.   They demonstrate greater love and fear of men, than the love and fear of the Lord.  They place greater value on the opinions and traditions of men (that make void the Word of God), than they do the authority of the Word itself.  And on the day of judgment, they would be better off having never having been shown the light of the Gospel.

2 Peter 2:1-22
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. …
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; …
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; …
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Rev 3:15-19
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


How anyone who call themselves ‘Christian’ or ‘followers of Christ’ can think to straddle the fence --  when God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son who bore the sins of all He came to save --,  is nothing less than a betrayal.  No church, no pastor, no teacher, no friend, no mother/father/sister/brother delivered us from bondage – Jesus did!

Josh 24:15-17
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
17 For the LORD our God, HE IT IS that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

2 Sam 16:16-18
16 And it came to pass, when Hushai the Archite, David's friend (Note: David a picture of Christ)  was come unto Absalom, that Hushai said unto Absalom, God save the king, God save the king.
17 And Absalom said to Hushai, Is this thy kindness to thy friend? why wentest thou not with thy friend?
18 And Hushai said unto Absalom, Nay; but whom the LORD, and this people, and all the men of Israel, choose, his will I be, and with him will I abide.


judy
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Peng Bao

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2004, 10:49:49 AM »
But i find Protestant condemnation of the Catholic Church as heretical practically absurd in light of history. Did God effectively abandon 16 centuries of Christians? I was looking for a response to that point, and perhaps should not have raised the issue in this thread.

tornpage

Tornpage, if Protestants didn't have good reason to think Roman Catholic doctrines heretical, they would still be part of that Church. But they came to their spiritual senses.

This is the question I find most puzzling. It would seem to me to be very clear why we think that Roman Catholicism is heretical. It's not absurd at all. We know it by light of the scripture, and in light of the very doctrines that the Roman Catholic church espouses. What a church teaches makes it a heretical church, not it's history. You are all caught up in church tradition like the Judaisers were.

The Church grew from Christ, and he doesn't change. Roman Catholic doctrine is not the gospel of Christ, therefore it's another gospel. And we are warned not to be carried about with these different doctrines.

Hebrews 13:8-9
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein."


It has already been shown that many doctrines of Roman Catholicism are heretical. Maybe you are blinded by your friendship with the church, but how can you think that a doctrine that teaches sins can be purged after death is not heretical? How could any bible believer think that? And don't you think that a salvation that is based upon a man's own efforts is heretical? Or that a Pope being made infallible in his proclamations to the church is a heretical teaching? You don't think a priest claiming to be able to forgive another man's sins against God, is heretical?

You seem to want to turn it into an "us vs. them" thing, that we'll be uncomfortable and open to unity with that Church. But there can be no unity when it's really about examining church doctrine and seeing where it stands against the gospel of Christ.

Doug Johnson

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2004, 04:24:53 AM »
Amen!

Better they be ‘offended’ now by the truth – and God perhaps opens the eyes of a few, than they become an ‘offense’ to the Lord on the day of judgment:
judy

Judy, So you're saying that it is right to give offense?

 2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

 1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

You should not offend your brother. Who is offended and I burn not. Are you taking all scripture into consideration?



Doug Johnson

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2004, 04:30:39 AM »
You seem to want to turn it into an "us vs. them" thing, that we'll be uncomfortable and open to unity with that Church.

Peng, that's the bottom line, isn't it? Catholics work towards unity, but Protestants don't want unity because they think that they are better than Catholics.

Eccumenism for the pratical men (and women) is not a bad thing. Don't you know that?

plowboy1534

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2004, 12:36:12 PM »
Tony,

Give me a break! You go on and on about how "mouthing" the Apostle's Creed means nothing without talking the talk and walking the walk, then you cite words from the Council of Trent to the same effect (i.e, you can't be saved by mere faith without there being a real change in your will and action), and use that to show the RC Church is heretical. Physician, heal thyself! As Canon 9 says, Faith without works is dead, nothing. Don't you have the Epistle of James in your Bible?

Here it is for you:

James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Now, the question I first posed asked for reflections on how the RC Church can be heretical in light of the history of Christianity. You're right in saying I broadened it into a general question about why some Protestants believe the RC Church is heretical – a broader question that has nothing to do with history. You answered the first, more limited, question in your first posting here, and I said as follows:

"Tony, the remark about "straw man" - though I used your language - was not directed at you. Thank you for the thoughtful reply, and i will ponder the point you made about history, drawing on the history of old covenant Israel. Thank you."

I still think your point was valid, and while I wish you had expanded upon it, I do not expect you to do all my  . . . "work." Your original response directing me to consider the history of old covenant Israel is appreciated.

In your second post, you elaborated on why you maintain that the RC Church is heretical. I took as the substance of that response (and it is the substance of that response), your statement that it is heretical because "[t]he gospel is the ‘good news' of unconditional unmerited salvation," and the view that the RC Church is heretical because it taught a doctrine of salvation by works. You didn't mention purgatory. Was I supposed to talk about purgatory in my response to your reply when you didn't mention purgatory? I don't think so. I talked about Galatians and the concept of work or "works" there, since Galatians 5:3-4 was the main text you relied on in setting forth your position, which, again, claimed Roman Catholicism was heretical because it supported salvation by works. .

But now you'd like to move the discussion to purgatory, priests, the Pope, whatever.  You point to those doctrines to support your claim that the RC Church is heretical. Fine. As I said, I'm not an apologist for the RC Church, and won't try to justify any of those doctrines. In fact, to the extent that the RC Church maintains that all its sacraments are necessary for salvation, and there is language to that effect in many RC statements, it's wrong. Let God be true, and every man a liar. But you're not advancing your argument on false claims that such and such a sacrament is necessary for salvation. No, you want to keep at the main theme of your tradition, which views any doctrine of salvation that recognizes any action or response by man to God's call as "salvation by works." That's a man-made addition to the gospel: the gospel doesn't define a view which leaves space for free will as heretical. But that's your spin, and refuting it requires an understanding of what is meant by "works of the law" and "work" in the negative sense you see in Romans and Ephesians, for example.    

So I'm not moving so fast, since the discussion of "works" is important, and since you have this beam in your eye that you ignore – because of your traditions, traditions of men in the Reformed school – that you pass off as the gospel in condemning Arminians and those who believe man can freely respond or not to the gospel. You told me that the RC Church was heretical because it believed in salvation by works, and I'm not letting you move off of that topic, because your view of the gospel is wrong. Work or works does not mean man's voluntary response to the gospel, and to hold that those who teach it are teaching a false gospel of salvation by works is a totally off the wall reading of what "works" means. If I had your broad view of heresy, I'd call it heretical.

Two of your favorite proof texts on this point are Romans 11:6 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Of course, you look at each verse in isolation, and while you quote other verses in isolation to support your view, you ignore your own precepts of letting Scripture interpret Scripture, and totally ignore context and clearly obvious passages that directly bear on the issue. You have your man-made interpretation, and your tradition, and you stick to it. Whether that makes you a heretic, I leave it to the King to judge - since I don't have your broad view of heresy.

There are a number of directly related passages that make it clear that the "works" spoken of are not man's faith or belief or the "works" of applying faith with a living application (spoken of in James) but the ritual performance of the Mosaic code and the belief that the "law" provides the means for salvation. The "boasting" referred to in Ephesians 2 has nothing to do with a man's saying "I believe," and performing "good works" with that belief,  but with the boasting of a privileged position based upon one's relation to the "law" and one's professed adherence to the "law" code. Look at the discussion in Romans 2 (below), where even the same verb is used ("boast"). It is the type of "boasting" the Jews would make to the Gentiles – those outside the "law" - of Paul's day. I quote the relevant passages, thus hoping that you let Scripture interpret Scripture, and cast off your "tradition."    

Romans 2:17-23

17.  Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18.  And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19.  And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20.  An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21.  Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22.  Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23.  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 3:20-31

20.  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 21.  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
 22.  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 23.  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 24.  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 25.  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 26.  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 27.  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
 28.  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
.
 29.  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
 30.  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31.   Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 4:13-16

13.  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14.  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15.  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16.  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 9:31-33

31.  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32.  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33.  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Ephesians 2:18-22

8.  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9.  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10.  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11.  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12.  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13.  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14.  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15.  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16.  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17.  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18.  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19.  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20.  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21.  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22.  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The "works" being spoken about in Romans and Ephesians is the works of the law, the whole system of circumcision, sacrifices and dietary laws instituted under the Mosaic law to make one right with God. Look at Galatians again, and particularly chapter 2 and the censure of Peter for  withdrawing and separating himself, refusing to eat with the Gentiles when the visitors from Jerusalem were around. What Peter is engaged in is described as a "work of the law."  And those "of the law," the boasters, are not those who say that man is free to respond to the gospel, but those who claim a special role by virtue of their status as heirs of Abraham, children under "the law" of the old dispensation – as God tells pretty straightforwardly in those portions of His Word set out above.  And as is also made clear in the gospels.

Matthew 3:9

9.  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 8:31-39

31.  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32.  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33.  They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34.  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35.  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36.  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37.  I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38.  I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39.  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

The "we are the children of Abraham" attitude is  the "boasting" referred to in Romans 2, and also in Ephesians 2.  We are saved by the grace of Christ, who has wiped out the "wall" between those of the law (Jews) and those not (Gentiles). All are one in Christ. The Jews' claims that they were the seed of Abraham, their special claim to prominence by virtue of having the law and following the law, is null and void. It all comes down to each individual, Jew or Gentile, and their faith in Christ.

The "deeds of the law" which are being contrasted to faith are also explained in Hebrews.

Hebrews 7:12-19

  12.  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
 13.  For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
 14.  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
 15.  And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
 16.  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
 17.  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
 18.  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
 19.  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.  


Hebrews 9:8-10

 8.  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
 9.  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
 10.  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.    

The "deeds of the law," the "works of the law," are the "carnal ordinances" spoken of in Hebrews,  which includes the rite of circumcision and the dietary laws Paul chided Peter about in Galatians 2.  You want to read "works of the law" to include the "work" of man in responding to grace, but that's a misreading born of your tradition, and used to attack other Christians as heretical. If you let  Scripture define the faith/works distinction, you wouldn't have your misleading definition of works.  

You enflame divisions between Reformed and Arminian, and other sects of Christians, with your false dichotomy of grace (which you say precludes any voluntary action on man's part) and "works,"as falsely defined by you and your tradition. At best you can argue Scripture permits your reading, but it certainly doesn't support a charge that the understanding of  Arminian or Roman Catholic on  faith or grace as  heretical.  

So when you argue that the RC Church is heretical because it believes in salvation by "works," you're wrong if you're referring to the RC belief of an individual's freedom to respond to the gospel call. The distinction between faith and works drawn by the gospel is that between a dispensation of salvation that includes all with a saving faith in Christ that is backed up by a living application in good deeds against one that precluded a whole class of people (the "uncircumcised" Gentiles) and was based upon a special status under, and observance of, "the law," a dispensation of salvation under the old Mosaic code, one "not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."


All Christian sects have added something or other to the gospel, made it gospel plus. And often condemning the views of other Christians in the process, like you do in judging those who do not share your definition of  "works"as including the voluntary response or not of man to the gospel, a definition that  requires you to do all kinds of fancy things with the word "faith," and even absurdly making "faith" itself a "work," totally missing the distinction made between "Abraham's faith" and "works"of the law, which "came four hundred and thirty years after." Galatians 3:17.

I would use the word heresy much more sparing then you. But I guess that's because I'm "dense" and devoted to defending the RC Church above the gospel of Christ. Anyway, I don't put much stock in your labels, since your definitions, if "works" is an example, are way off.  

Yes, don't chant peace when there is no peace, and there is "no peace" in a secular society that maintains that faith is simply a matter of personal choice of a religion without any connection with "truth," and that it is ultimately only about "being a good person." That doctrine denies the necessity of Christ crucified, and the gospel that I preach is "Christ crucified." 1 Corinthians 1:23.  A denial of the necessity of Christ as the only way, truth and light is the doctrine of man that we should be united in fighting against. There is no salvation apart from the Son.  

Rhetoric? Maybe. But a lot more, too.

And if you really want to argue heresy in the RC Church, you'd have a lot of ammo with what it's doing in the name of "ecumenism," which goes beyond brother and sister Protestants and is slipping into acknowledging all kinds of pagan and false creeds as a different "manifestation of Christ" . . . but that's another story.

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Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2004, 09:46:09 AM »
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Tony,
Give me a break! You go on and on about how "mouthing" the Apostle's Creed means nothing without talking the talk and walking the walk, then you cite words from the Council of Trent to the same effect (i.e., you can't be saved by mere faith without there being a real change in your will and action), and use that to show the RC Church is heretical.
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No, I use Roman Catholicism's own vaunted words (rather than my words) to avoid your "false charges" and to show clearly what their doctrines are, so there can be no rational denials. It shows that they in fact do have a gospel of works to merit salvation (not that anyone who is honest and has actually heard their doctrines had any doubt). And I show that despite your transparent and illogical objections, their doctrine is not in agreement with, but in Stark Contrast to the Biblical doctrine that our works are the result of Christ working in us. That you choose not to see the distinction is not surprising, since only the humble and honorable in the Spirit, those who surrender to authority of scripture, will see these truths revealed in God's Word.

Matthew 11:25
  • "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
  • Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."

ie, For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect (Romans 3:3)?


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James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
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That's exactly right. And do you know why? Because that is the word of God you are bearing witness to, not the Roman Catholic Catechisms. i.e., the work of Christ "in us," is what makes us "live" unto Christ, not our own works of merit. Isn't that obvious from all that scripture declares? Roman Catholicism makes a living off "ignoring" plain scriptures that prove its doctrines false, but it is revealed unto the humble. It is made manifest to the meek. The Children who receive authority of the Father. All scripture "in context" details whose works are in us, moving us, and making us do (work). Which makes our faith not dead, but alive. It is the work of Christ, the efficacy of the faith of Christ in us. Not our own. You don't really think these scriptures are out of context or that I am making this up as I go along do you? This is what God says, not what Tony Warren says.

Philippians 3:9
  • "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

The works of keeping the law would be salvation by my own righteousness, which cannot be. We're not saved by doing good works of the law in our own dead faith, but by the "finished work" in the "faith of Christ," which is a well water of life in us. So you may "parrot" the Roman Catholic line of our own meritorious works all day, but God unambiguously contradicts that doctrine.

Isaiah 26:12
  • "LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us."
Philippians 2:13
  • "For it is God which worketh in you BOTH to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Hebrews 13:20-21
  • "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
  • Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Ephesians 2:10
  • "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Colossians 1:29
  • "Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."

Shall I continue? Of course, if we happen to be of a religion that has no fear of God, no humility before Him, and routinely rejects the "authority" of scripture, then all these passages (and many more) simply become totally null, void and effectively meaningless. God calls this, having a "seared conscience," which is a lack of reverence for the authority of God's Word.

The fact is, the Bible cannot contradict itself, and so it is plainly obvious that James is not talking about man's own works. Man's own works are dead from the start in Adam, because there is none that doeth good, no not one, as even our righteousness is as "filthy rags" without Christ (Isaiah 64:6-7). So while you are quoting James 2 "as if" it stands alone, or "as if" it shows that we merit something by our works, clearly the rest of scripture both precludes it, and "explains" what it means. Roman Catholicism may not understand whose work of faith is in us, but the Apostle Paul sure did. Because he understood the contrast between his works and God's Grace. He understood why his faith wasn't any longer dead, and whose works of life they were in him. But don't take my word for it, God, through Paul himself explains it. No need for rhetoric, just the plain unadulterated "Word of God."

1st Corinthians 15:10
  • "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: YET NOT I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Yes, faith without works is dead, because without the work of Christ, you have dead faith, not saving faith. We're saved by His work, not because of our efforts or love for Him, but because of His love for us. We merit "nothing" except through Christ. So, as the parable we read before of he who "builds his house upon a Rock," blessed are those who not only read, but who also spiritually hear what they read.

2nd Timothy 1:9
  • "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

How much clearer can it get. God says unambiguously that He saves us [color=ff0000]Not[/color] according to our works, but according to His purposes. Here again, a "direct" contradiction to the gospel of Roman Catholicism.

Titus 3:4-5
  • "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
  • Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

But it seems that no amount of God's Word is sufficient to break the grip of Roman traditions "without" the Spirit of God thinning the dense heart that holds it.


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..your statement that it is heretical because "[t]he gospel is the 'good news' of unconditional unmerited salvation," and the view that the RC Church is heretical because it taught a doctrine of salvation by works.
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That is just one of its heretical doctrines. And though you seem perturbed by my quoting of Romans 11:6, the fact remains, "..if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Christians simply cannot say that no one is saved until the Lord's return, and it not be a works gospel. Because the true gospel is that Christ has "already" paid for all the sins of those whom God called and chose. It doesn't take a Ph.D. to figure out that there cannot be salvation if it depends upon our good works in this world. It wasn't good enough for Israel, it certainly is not good enough for us. ..you see, it's that whole Grace/Works thing again!


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You didn't mention purgatory. Was I supposed to talk about purgatory in my response to your reply when you didn't mention purgatory? I don't think so.
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No, you didn't mention it. Yes I brought it up. And I did because "I thought" it was pertinent to the topic of discussion which is, "The Heresy of Roman Catholicism." Roman Catholicism is not made up of one heresy, there are many. And one of the worst is that Christ's payment for sin was insufficient, and must be supplemented by man's own penance, in this world, and the hereafter. That's an abominable doctrine! Say what you will, that alone makes Roman Catholicism heretical, and another gospel!


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But now you'd like to move the discussion to purgatory, priests, the Pope, whatever.  You point to those doctrines to support your claim that the RC Church is heretical. Fine. As I said, I'm not an apologist for the RC Church, and won't try to justify any of those doctrines.
<<<

I'm not looking for your justification of these doctrines, because there is none. I'm looking for the truth. That these doctrines (including Purgatory) are heretical doctrines is seen in the perpescuity of Scripture by anyone who bothers to examine them. I didn't expect you to justify them, because as I said, no one can. That's the "WHOLE" point! Unbiblical unchristian doctrines of Roman Catholicism.

All this other nonsense is simply rhetoric to avoid these real issues. You're not kidding anyone but yourself. Because you haven't given one scripture that proves any of these doctrines of works are justifiable. Sure, you've quoted scripture, I'll grant you that. But none that says, means, or implies that what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about works and how we are earning salvation in this world, is the truth. ..and therein lies the rub.


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In fact, to the extent that the RC Church maintains that all its sacraments are necessary for salvation, and there is language to that effect in many RC statements, it's wrong.
<<<

..It's wrong? How charitable! No, it's not just wrong, it's heretical. Saying someone must be immersed in water for a proper baptism would be wrong. Saying that it's a sin if we don't only sing Psalms in Church would be wrong. But these doctrines I'm talking about are not just wrong, they are Heretical. They deal with Salvation, sin, merit, authority, and works. It's a whole other ball park. We're talking about the methodology of salvation. Is Islam just wrong because it has another methodology of salvation? Is Judaism just wrong because it has another methodology of salvation? No!


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But you're not advancing your argument on false claims that such and such a sacrament is necessary for salvation.
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Ok, I'll agree that's heresy too. So how many heresies is that already?


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No, you want to keep at the main theme of your tradition, which views any doctrine of salvation that recognizes any action or response by man to God's call as "salvation by works."
<<<

That's false, I never said that. But as I said, it's typical of those who have no real defense against the truth of God's Word. So we're back to the proverbial "Straw Man" again. Or more rhetoric in a transparent attempt to cloud what I really did say. Or rather, what the Roman Catholic documents said, in relationship to what God's Word said.

The "FACT" is (as you well know I'm sure), we do teach that man has responsibility. That's why there is judgement. And as I have already given numerous scriptures proving it, any response to God's call, was God working in man to elicit that response. Those scriptures I gave weren't enough to convince you that God meant "exactly" what He said? It's the will of man that denies Grace. It is the "will of man" that just has to usurp some credit from God for doing something that God declares that "He Did." But the Apostles were not under any such prideful, vain or egotistical delusions.

John 6:44
  • "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Hebrews 12:2
  • "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Philippians 1:6
  • "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
Ephesians 4:30
  • "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
1st Peter 1:5
  • "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

So you can call God's unadulterated word the "main theme of my tradition" if you like, so long as that so-called tradition is from the pages of scripture, rather than extrabiblical Roman Catholic catechisms. The scriptures are the "authority."


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So I'm not moving so fast, since the discussion of "works" is important, and since you have this beam in your eye that you ignore - because of your traditions, traditions of men in the Reformed school
<<<

Just one question.. What Reformer did I quote? You see this is another "Straw Man," and simply "More Rhetoric." Because as God is my witness, I've testified to the word of God exclusively here. The only time I brought up tradition is when I quoted the "Roman Catholic Catechisms" (traditions) so that you could not say I was just making up their doctrines as I go along. So please, try and at least appear lucid and rational. The only tradition being espoused here is yours. For future reference, when you see those words I type in bold print, like, Philippians, Titus, John, Thessalonians, Timothy, Romans, etc? That's the word of the Living God, not my "alleged" tradition. Please learn the difference.


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Work or works does not mean man's voluntary response to the gospel, and to hold that those who teach it are teaching a false gospel of salvation by works is a totally off the wall reading of what "works" means.
<<<

Despite your smoke and mirrors, I don't think I have to tell anyone what works are, or what Roman Catholic penance for bad works is. The Roman Catholic doctrine of works that merit salvation, their levels of good works (e.g., works of supererogation) and of sins (venial or mortal) and their ability to work off those sins, is well documented by Roman catholics themselves. So I don't know the purpose of this continuing rhetoric.

Roman Catholicism teaches that sanctification and justification arenít just one-time events, but are ongoing processes in the life of the believer. It teaches that if by your works you sin grievously, the life in your soul disappears, since it canít co-exist with grievous sin. You will then cease to be justified. If you die while you are unjustified, you will go to hell. Now how you can sit there (I presume) and make the untenable statement that this is not justification by works (a works gospel), is almost incomprehensible. Until we realize that it is only God who reveals truth and gives wisdom, and opens eyes, and softens hearts, we will never have all readiness of mind (Acts 17:11) to receive what is written.


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Romans 11:6
Ephesians 2:8-9
Of course, you look at each verse in isolation,
<<<

There is no verse that contradicts these verses. That's an impossibility. When you make such a charge, at least have the courtesy to back it up with more than words.

Ephesians 2:8-9
  • "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
  • Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The only way you would be justified in what you claim is if you could show that it indeed was of works. Or that grace indeed could be works. Or that man's works indeed could be grace. But that would make the the Holy Bible nonsensical.

You claim this is an isolated verse, name me a verse which contradicts it? Show me a verse that says we are saved by works, and that it is of ourselves, or else stop with this "out of context" nonsense. The context is "CLEARLY" that we are saved by grace through faith, and that salvation is not of ourselves, but it is a gift of God!!!!!!! Now what context are you seeing here that I don't? What are you reading into "this" context that is not here? There is no way to make this passage not say what it says, or not mean what it says. Nor Romans 11:6 that if it's by Grace, it cannot be by works. Those are Absolutes, not subject to Roman Catholic private interpretations. The first rule of exegesis is that no scripture is untrue or contradictory.

 
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The "works" being spoken about in Romans and Ephesians is the works of the law, the whole system of circumcision, sacrifices and dietary laws instituted under the Mosaic law to make one right with God.
<<<

There are not any other type works God requires of us "BUT" works of the law. His law book (The Bible) is our authority. Speaking of context, you obviously are not reading the context. Let me help..

Ephesians 2:8-10
  • "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
  • Not of works, lest any man should boast.
  • For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Works of the law? Indeed! And we were ordained to walk in them.

The works being spoken of are meritorious works "period." Any works of the law man may do in order to obtain salvation is false. What do you think doctrines of penances are if not works of the law? You can't define the law of Moses (or God's law), any way you choose in order to fit it into the doctrines of Roman Catholicism. The law of Moses is a synonym for the Word of God. The Old testament precepts "are" the Word of God. The whole Bible is God's law. When God says if you look at a woman to lust after her, you've committed adultery, that's not doing away with the Old Testament law of adultery, it's explaining "more fully" the law and how no man can keep the whole law. It's illuminating our real need for a Savior, and how we couldn't ever hope to be saved by merit of keeping God's laws. Christ didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. Unless we can keep the whole law (as defined by God -James 2:10) then we are under wrath of God. Any attempt to try and "pay" for sins by any work (like circumcision or animal sacrifices, penance or purgatory) makes us guilty of the WHOLE LAW, because man cannot keep the law by his own efforts. Any gospel teaching good meritorial works in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, is a heretical Church doctrine. The system of circumcision, sacrifices and dietary laws were types signifying the work of Christ is the "ONLY" way to enter into the kingdom, and REST from our own works. Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

Matthew 5:17-18
  • "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
  • For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

So while you are busy attempting to cover up Roman Catholicism's errors by saying it only spoke of "the works of the law, the whole system of circumcision, sacrifices and dietary laws instituted under the Mosaic law to make one right with God," God makes it clear that He is addressing any works that man would claim makes him right with God. Because evidently you do not understand that no works of man can make him right with God. That is "PRECISELY" why we needed a Savior in the first place. Because no one could get right with God by his own works. Thus the Lord's own arm brought Salvation to us.
 
nosce te ipsum"
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2004, 09:57:16 AM »
>>>
And those "of the law," the boasters, are not those who say that man is free to respond to the gospel, but those who claim a special role by virtue of their status as heirs of Abraham, children under "the law" of the old dispensation
<<<

Israel boasted they were saved by virtue of being Israel and keeping the law. Roman Catholicism boasts they are saved by being Roman Catholic (as you well know) and keeping the law (doing good works) lest they have to pay for their sins themselves (Heresy) in Purgatory or by penance. So it's half a dozen of one, six of the other. What's the real difference? None! Israel claims a special role by virtue of their status as heirs of Abraham, and Roman Catholicism claims a special role by virtue of their status as heirs through Apostolic Succession. It's all about vain genealogies and traditions, which Christ warned against. As said the preacher,

Ecclesiastics 1:9
  • "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Are we listening?


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>>>
Matthew 3:9
9.  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
<<<

Likewise we could say to Roman Catholics, think not to say within yourselves, that you have the One True Holy Catholic Church and Holy father: for God is able of these stones to raise up children unto the Holy Father. ..the one in Heaven, not the Pseudo-one in Rome.


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The "deeds of the law" which are being contrasted to faith are also explained in Hebrews.

Hebrews 7:12-19
15.  And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16.  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17.  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18.  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19.  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 
<<<

No, the "deeds of the law" or "works of men," which obviously (as stated here) couldn't save anyone and made nothing perfect, is being contrasted to the Work of Christ that makes us perfect according to the law before God, and will save. What you are talking about I do not know. But I do know that we keep the law "In Christ," not in our own carnal works of the flesh, which should gender fear because unless we keep the whole law, we are in deep trouble. But in Christ, we have no fear of the wrath of God because we understand we have been made "Perfect" concerning the law, not by our own works, but by the Love of God. It is by Grace that we may walk without fear in the day of judgments.

1st John 4:16-19
  • "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
  • Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
  • There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
  • We love him, because he first loved us."



 
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The "deeds of the law," the "works of the law," are the "carnal ordinances" spoken of in Hebrews,  which includes the rite of circumcision and the dietary laws Paul chided Peter about in Galatians 2.
<<<

Carnal ordinances in that man thinks that he can get to heaven by his own worldly, fleshly, or carnal actions in obedience of keeping them carnally. He can't keep them, because he is carnal! Just as man today. He thinks that he can get into the kingdom of heaven by his own good works. This is the essence of almost every false religion. In some way, man must "earn" his way into the kingdom by doing good deeds. You choose to relegate these passages to some unique old testament experiences, but God's Word was not written in a vacuum. By God declaring that "true" circumcision was of the heart, the new life in Christ, He is unambiguously explaining how that by works of keeping the law, no flesh on earth shall be saved. You cannot blot these truths out of scripture by osmosis. The word of God is the law.

Colossians 2:11-13
  • "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
  • Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
  • And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

The Old Testament law looked forward to it's new Testament reality, the only work that would truly get us into heaven. The Circumcision made without hands. The cleansing from sin, the forgiveness of sins, obtained without the works of our hands. We don't have to convolute God's Word in order that it conform to man's ideas of working for salvation, the truth suffices.


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You want to read "works of the law" to include the "work" of man in responding to grace, but that's a misreading born of your tradition, and used to attack other Christians as heretical.
<<<

That's dabbling in the theatre of the absurd. Good works are obedience to the law. Get that straight first. Because you are denying a basic truth that law is the "established rule of conduct" set down by God. That's the works of the law. Despite the teachings of Roman Catholicism, the works of the law are essential to "true" Christianity. But it is not the reason for Salvation, keeping the law is the evidence of Salvation. Obedience.

2nd Thessalonians 3:14
  • "And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed."
Hebrews 5:9
  • "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
1st Peter 4:17
  • "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Indeed, who is the man of lawlessness sitting in the Holy Temple (2nd Thessalonians 2) if the unfaithful works of man are not the works of disobeying the law? What are the faithful works of man if not the faithful works of the keeping the law? What is sin if it is not the transgression of the law?

1st John 3:4
  • "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

I'm sorry, but your idea that the "works of the law" don't include the "work" of man, does not have a leg to stand on. Tell God there is no works of the law, meaning the works of man. Because everything you've said thus far has contradicted some portions of His Word. For when God says love your neighbor, that's exhortation unto good works of the law. When God says do not bear false witness, that's good works of the law. When God says feed my sheep, that's good works of the law. I don't read the works of the law to include the works of man, "IT IS" the works of man. It's ludicrous to say otherwise. And when believers stand before God, they will be judged by the works of the law as one who is Perfect in Christ. needing no purgatory or penance.

2nd Corinthians 5:10
  • "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."


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If you let  Scripture define the faith/works distinction, you wouldn't have your misleading definition of works. 
<<<

I repeat, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. i.e., works of the law. The only faith/works distinction is that those who have been given the gift of the "faith of Christ," will respond with the works of Christ in them. They will have the saving faith that is not dead, but is within them a well of living waters unto salvation unto obedience (unto the law).

Colossians 2:13
  • "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

Not some, the rest being worked off by penance or purgatory, but all sins were washed away. There's our faith that is not dead, we having been quickened, or made alive in Christ!

The only misleading definition here, is your insistence that Roman Catholicism should not be defined as a "works gospel."


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You enflame divisions between Reformed and Arminian, and other sects of Christians,
<<<

Enflame divisions? No, rather I refuse to remove the boundaries that so many Churches have removed in our day, having brought about this this great apostasy in the Churches. Divisions when set down by God, are there for a reason. There were to be kept, not discarded for some misbegotten idea of carnal or humanistic love or unity.

Proverbs 23:9-13
  • "Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
  • Remove not the old landmark; and enter not into the fields of the fatherless:
  • For their redeemer is mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee.
  • Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
  • Withhold not correction from the child:"

The Spiritual landmarks of the Word of God may be moved by many in our day, but I shall not join in the movement. The boundaries are divisions, and are meant to be boundaries. You can label it inflaming these divisions if you like, I choose to call it faithfully adhering to the authority of scripture. ..removing not the ancient landmarks of the fathers.
 

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So when you argue that the RC Church is heretical because it believes in salvation by "works,"
<<<

..as I said before, "Learn" Roman Catholicism before attempting to defend it. Because you are arguing against their own doctrines, not what I say their doctrines are. Their own writings speak for themselves. ..including their  precept that one can be saved through their work of going through Purgatory to cleanse their sin. So you can play all the word games you like, but this is Heretical, and it's not even close!

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>>>

----- Snip to the usual Rhetoric ------

<<<


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I would use the word heresy much more sparing then you. But I guess that's because I'm "dense" and devoted to defending the RC Church above the gospel of Christ.
<<<

But the "Good News" is that Christ can break through any denseness, as He has with me, and thousands of other Christians who in their pride and arrogance fought against the Word of God. The Good news is that God is in the "Heart Softening Business." Nevertheless, the same Sun that softens the butter, hardens the clay. For to one the gospel is the savour of death unto death; and to the other the Savour of life unto life (2nd Corinthians 2:16). As it's always been.

Ezekiel 11:19-21
  • " And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
  • That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
  • But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD."


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Rhetoric? Maybe. But a lot more, too.

And if you really want to argue heresy in the RC Church, you'd have a lot of ammo with what it's doing in the name of "ecumenism,"  which goes beyond brother and sister Protestants and is slipping into acknowledging all kinds of pagan and false creeds as a different "manifestation of Christ" . . . but that's another story.
<<<


..A heretical Church is a heretical Church. Of course there are many ways that Roman Catholicism is heretical, but that only makes your insistence that we are all bad people "for saying so" even more disingenuous.

Ephesians 3:20
  • "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,"

Believe it! It is Christ which works in us "BOTH" to will and to "do" (Work). And that's not my rhetoric, that's God's unadulterated (Pure) Word quoted Word for Word. No room for rhetoric there.

nosce te ipsum"
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"


plowboy1534

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2004, 10:32:25 AM »
Tony,

As I think I've said in one of these posts, it appears to me that the weight of Scriptural authority supports the "faith of Christ" point on the issue of whose faith. And I've looked again at your article on that that point. But I don't much trust my conclusions, and am ever questioning. I look at so many "good" people, people better than I, who are Roman Catholic and/or Arminian on the issue of whether there is a response for which man is responsible necessary for Christ's atonement and work to become effective. I'm not talking "good people" who are Buddhists or Hindu or whatever, but people who believe in Christ, and that no one comes to the Father but through the Son. And when in my own reading and journey I read articles from both camps proclaiming the other side to have a heretical position, I scratch my head and say . . . is there not room enough for all of these Christians together?

So I see a verse like Romans 4:5,

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Who is the "him" there? The believer. His belief is not called a work. Again, it appears that the "works" contrasted is not faith or belief but something else, like following the "law."

I only pray that the Lord "give," yes, give me the saving grace of Christ. I am groaning in travail with the new creature that Christ is creating in me. Perhaps.

As to the RC Church, yes, you cannot square statements that baptism into it are necessary for salvation, and many others, with the gospel. As Christ instructed us not to let fathers, mothers, wives, children come between us and Him, i must deal with issues of my RC "connections." But I never considered myself an apologist for the RC faith.

Let us consider this my first admonition.

Can you perhaps pray for this brother on his journey?

Thank  you,

tornpage
Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Tony Warren

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2004, 01:44:06 PM »
>>>
I look at so many "good" people, people better than I, who are Roman Catholic and/or Arminian on the issue of whether there is a response for which man is responsible necessary for Christ's atonement and work to become effective. I'm not talking "good people" who are Buddhists or Hindu or whatever, but people who believe in Christ, and that no one comes to the Father but through the Son.
 <<<

Understood. But good people in whose eyes? Man's or God's?

1st Samuel 16:7
  • "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."


Man judges by his eyes, but God judges righteously. He judges "by the Word of God" rather than assumptions based upon what we perceive. We're finite, but God is infinite. I might appear to man to be a good person, but to God I might be seen as an evil reprobate hiding horrible sins in my heart. Or to man I might appear to be an evil reprobate, but to God as a righteous man doing His will. Because God doesn't judge like man (whatever seems right in his own eyes), God judges perfectly, justly, righteously. Man's judgments have never been righteous and unbiased. Without God's intervention they've always been humanistic. e.g., just because I might perceive all my family are relatively good people, doesn't mean that they truly are, or that they all deserve to be saved. All it means is that I'm human and judge according to the flesh. Mercifully, God doesn't give to us that we should have to pass such judgments on who is saved and who is not. That's His business, not ours. We look on the outward appearance, but God on the inward. And He can tell the difference between soul and spirit regarding things which we can merely hypothesize about.

Hebrews 4:12-13
  • "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
  • Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

The intents of the heart is something no man knows for sure, and God alone judges. But we do know heretical doctrines, and we are commanded to judge what is and is not the doctrines of Christ. We "are" to try the spirits (1st John 4:1).


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So I see a verse like Romans 4:5,

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Who is the "him" there? The believer.
<<<

Yes, it is the believer. This is again proving what I have been saying. i.e., that it was never "EVER" about the works of following the law which no one could sufficiently do, but about the Saving Grace of God. Even with regards to Old Testament saints who practiced these ceremonial rituals. The old Testament/Covenant works of the law saved no one, they were all saved the same way as we are. By the "faith of Christ" in them. This is the context of what's declared here. Doing doesn't get anyone one step closer to the Kingdom of heaven, "faith alone" justifies.

Romans 4:3-6
  • "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
  • Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
  • But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
  • Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"

Those who think that they can get to be saved by their efforts in this life, are making salvation a "debt" that God owes man rather than Grace. Again, it's an untenable doctrine. God is saying here that Grace cannot be works, or else God is the one who is indebted to man, rather than vice-versa. Sure it's the law.

The "him" in that verse that "worketh not," is the believer who does not rely on his own good works in this life for his justification (as Roman Catholicism teaches) but upon the Grace of God. A reward "not" because God owes it to us by our works in this world (dept), but a "Free gift." An unmerited reward of God's favor.

The he is him that doesn't depend upon His own works. It is He who doesn't rely on his ability to conform to the law for his justification. It is the he who seeks to be justified in some other way. The "true Christian" plan of justification, God's unconditional favor.


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>>>
His belief is not called a work.
<<<

Agreed! Because it's not "his works" that foster belief, it is the work of Christ. Therefore is it counted unto him for righteousness. The reason why his belief was counted for righteousness was because it was by the "Faithful" promise (or Covenant) of God. Remember the scripture, "God is both the Author (starter) and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Thus if we truly believe this, we must ask ourselves, How then could Abraham not believe if God is both the Author and finisher and will see it through to it's completion? He was not only foreknown, foreordained, Predestinated, and called, but he was a Chosen vessel "unto belief." All that was left for Abraham to do, was the same thing that is left for us to do. Give thanks to God for His work in us. Consider wisely:

2nd Thessalonians 2:13
  • "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth[/u]:"

Abraham was sanctified and believed because God chose him unto that purpose. Not because of his own merit or works of the law.

1st Peter 1:20-21
  • "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
  • Who by Him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."

God is not talking to the haughty spirit here, or the spirit of arrogance thinking that they deserve some credit, He is talking to the meek, the humble, those with the child-like spirit who will "receive" the love of truth and surrender to the authority of their Father. Those who finally have Peace with God as their warfare is accomplished (finished) and iniquity pardoned. Again, as in all these verses I have been witnessing to, God is illustrating that we should rest on what God, and not what man has done. That's what Roman Catholicism ignores in their church tradition.


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 Again, it appears that the "works" contrasted is not faith or belief but something else, like following the "law."
<<<

Yes, the works contrasted is following the law. Sure! That's what Good works are. Being obedient. Doing what Goid wants. Whether that be sacrificing an animal, or keeping a candle (lamp) burning,  or sprinkling water in baptism, or not committing adultery (ever looking upon a woman with lust). It's all the work of the law. God is saying we will never ever be justified by keeping all His laws (Romans 7:15-20), because no one can keep it wholely faithfully. Not You, not I, not Abraham, not even John the Baptist. That's the whole point that is being made in this context. Man cannot be justified by his own works, but by the faith of Christ.

Romans 4:4-5
  • "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
  • But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

In other words, unto him that worketh not, or who does not depend on his own good works for justification, but Christ, that man is accounted righteous. He's counted as having kept the law through the atonement and righteousness of Christ! ..atonement for what? our continual violations of the law.

So unless I am missing something you are saying here, clearly this demonstrates that the Roman Catholic doctrines of good works of the law (the law being, deeds in obedience to the word of God), no man can keep. Not Abraham and not David. David was a murderer, but in Christ he had no sin, was moved to repentance by God and was counted righteous. No good works required, no penance for bad works, no purgatory, just God imputing or crediting Christ's righteousness to him. As indeed the context also shows.

Romans 4:6-7
  • "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
  • Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."

Good works were not necessary, God imputed Christ's righteousness to him "without" works. Thus once again, Roman Catholicism fails when compared carefully with the "authority" of scripture.


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>>>
I only pray that the Lord "give," yes, give me the saving grace of Christ. I am groaning in travail with the new creature that Christ is creating in me. Perhaps.
<<<

Amen! And the good news is that God says that those who ask of Him (on His terms) He will not turn them away. Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, anyone. But that's the key. RECEIVING what God says unconditionally. We can't say I'll receive the word only if Roman Catholicism is in agreement with it (Not saying you have), as many in practice do. That's what happened to Israel. They wanted a Christ, but not the Christ of the Bible (they had an 'authority' problem too). They wanted a Messiah of their own making (liking), who would come and set them free from Roman rule. But they sought "another Christ," (and to this day do) not the Christ of scriptural prophetical record. The scriptures not being their authority (John 5:39), they rejected Christ, no matter what they protested they were not of God. And unfortunately, in a sense, that is what Roman Catholicism has done also. Gone after another Christ that agrees with them (not vice-versa), another gospel, another doctrine of works in salvation based upon their own efforts and traditions (Matthew 15:2-3).


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>>>
As to the RC Church, yes, you cannot square statements that baptism into it are necessary for salvation, and many others, with the gospel.
<<<

Agreed! Works! I guess I'm making too many comparisons with Israel, but there are just so many mistakes that Israel made, that the Roman Catholic church has repeated, from leaning on succession or genealogies, to authority, to ritual, to dress, to traditions, on and on, the list seems endless. Lest we forget, the vast majority of Israel would not hearken to the authority of the Word of God, only a "remnant" received the truth, the rest were blinded. The Apostle Paul didn't chide God for that decision about his kinsmen, He thanked God for the mercy He had shown to the remnant and said, "Thy will be done, not mine." That's our example!

Likewise, there is a remnant come out of Roman Catholicism, and we can Thank God for that. But those who do should not be as Lot's wife, and look back, or spiritually reminisce about that they have left. They should pray with a heavy heart for them, and ask understanding of His laws.

Psalms 119:26-30
  • "I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.
  • Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
  • My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
  • Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
  • I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me."


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Can you perhaps pray for this brother on his journey?
<<<

Too late, already done. That's one thing that we all could use.

1st Timothy 2:1
  • "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;"


nosce te ipsum"
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"



plowboy1534

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2004, 02:29:43 AM »
Tony,

This fittingly ended after your reply. Forgive me for not having thanked you for your prayers. And thanks are due you for your toiling for the kingdom on this site. I know you are a humble man, and do not desire praise from men. But gratitude and acknowledgment are in order, and it is right i think to give them where they are deserved. So i thank you, as i marvel over the  exegetical wonders that the Holy Spirit has performed through the vessel of Tony Warren.

It has just occurred to me how much i just sounded like a Pharisee there. Mark 12:14. God forbid! Again, I just wanted to thank you and fulfill that obligation that i owe you.

This site is a wonder, and i know of no other place where one can go to get a sound Biblical discussion of the things that matter most.

Thanks,

tornpage
Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Dwight

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2004, 03:21:42 PM »
Tony,
 So i thank you, as i marvel over the  exegetical wonders that the Holy Spirit has performed through the vessel of Tony Warren.

This site is a wonder, and i know of no other place where one can go to get a sound Biblical discussion of the things that matter most.

Thanks,

tornpage

 DITTO for me. I came here a few months ago got a breath of fresh air, and haven't left since. I have learned so much. As the name implies, this is a mountain retreat for people who are weary of the same old liberal christian ideas and philosophies. I started out as an antagonist, and ended up as a supporter of this doctrine. It just goes to show, God is a great God that changes men.

 3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
 5 Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
 6 Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:


Tony Warren

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2004, 11:21:42 AM »
I just wanted to thank you and fulfill that obligation that i owe you.

I do appreciate your kind and charitable words. No thanks to me are in order. I can assure you that any "truthful" insights that have been brought to light through this site, was done so by the Spirit of God. That is where our thanks should go.

As for sounding like a Pharisee, I'm sure we all sounded like a Pharisee at one time or another as we grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Melanie

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Re: The Banner of Roman Catholicism
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2011, 01:59:29 PM »
I do appreciate your kind and charitable words. No thanks to me are in order. I can assure you that any "truthful" insights that have been brought to light through this site, was done so by the Spirit of God. That is where our thanks should go.

  I wish we all that this spirit, unfortunately, that is not usually the case. Roman Catholicism, and every other false religion, should never be treated with benevolence or good will. Some Christians just feel the need to feel sorry for and defend every false way. I don't know why, but they do. We are to love our enemies, not our enemies religions.

 Numbers 16:26
  "And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins".



 


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