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Author Topic: Premillennialism / Literalism?  (Read 24942 times)

Bradley

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2003, 10:48:04 AM »
In other words when satan is really bound, there shall be no more war and the nations shall no longer be at odds with one another.

Isa:2:4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic:4:3: And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Bradley while I can see what you are saying on an individual level...I think George may be trying to hit on something bigger that has not yet been seen....yet still a very promise from God. Praise God!

beautyforashes,

All three of the verses you have provided are fulfilled at the time of salvation.  It is much more than just a personal view of salvation.  Before we are saved we are enemies to God.  We are fighting against the things of God.  When we are saved, we are given the Spirit of God, which transforms us into a new creature.  We are given a new heart.  A heart which is obedient to the things of God.  We are taught by the Spirit of God, and need no man to teach us any longer.  Once we are saved, we no longer war against God, but we become servants of God, working in the field, planting the Word of God, in the hearts of other people.

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34   And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God writes his law on our hearts when we are saved, and we become the people of God through the circumcision of the heart.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26   A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27   And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Romans 2:28-29
28   For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

2 Corinthians 3:2-6
2   Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3   Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4   And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5   Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

As to Isaiah 2:4 and Micah 4:3, you need to realize that we were enemies to God before we were saved.

Isaiah 2:4
4   And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:3
3   And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Before we are saved, we are an enemy of God.  We are against him.

Romans 8:7-9
7   Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9   But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ephesians 2:12-17
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14   For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15   Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16   And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17   And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Romans 5:10-11
10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11   And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

So, you can see, when we were enemies to God, we fought against him, but by grace we were saved, we were transformed, we were changed, by the Spirit of God.  It is all him, and none of us.  We have nothing to glory about.  

Upon that transformation, we no longer war against God, but we work for God.  We no longer need a sword of warfare, but we need a plowshare to use to plant the seed of the Word in otherís so the kingdom will grow.  All in all, we know it is God who brings the increase by his grace.

1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6   I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7   So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8   Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9   For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Bradley

beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2003, 06:03:21 AM »
Thank you Tony Warren and Bradley for your replies.

Quote
All three of the verses you have provided are fulfilled at the time of salvation.  It is much more than just a personal view of salvation.

Bradley, I believe when God says nations that He means nations?

I do understand the concept of satan being bound in our lives upon salvation and being redeemed from darkness to light.

I understand the peace, joy, and blessings that result in ones home and life after the chastising. Weeping may endure for a night...but joy!

Upon my own salvation I don't think the Lord considered me a nation. (I may have had a little weight to loose at the time...lol)

While it is your perogative to not believe the verses mean nations, it is also mine to believe that they do.

This is in no way carnal thinking. It is not about men but about His promises.

Hab:2:14: For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.



Chicago Bear

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2003, 09:27:43 AM »
Thank you Tony Warren and Bradley for your replies.

I believe when God says nations that He means nations?


Are you aware that the word "Nations" and the word "Gentiles" is the same word? Do you believe when God says Gentiles that He means Nations? It's the same thing because the Gentiles are the nations other than Israel. I would take their advice and study the scriptures.

Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2003, 10:20:20 AM »
Greetings Chicago Bear,

I am in study without advice to do so.

Hab:2:14: For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Can you tell me one inch of the sea that is not covered with water? Have you seen this covering of the knowledge of the Lord on the earth in your lifetime, or in history?

Please don't tell me that the earth now means an individual life.

Reading the whole chapter.... it is judgement and rebuke toward repentance. This will not be needed in the new earth or heaven.

Whether Gentiles or nations we as individual salvations can not be the meaning.

Do the waters of the sea cover one drop at a time? This is a full and complete covering.

Maybe you could help me understand?







Bradley

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2003, 02:50:08 PM »
>>>Bradley, I believe when God says nations that He means nations?

I do understand the concept of satan being bound in our lives upon salvation and being redeemed from darkness to light.

I understand the peace, joy, and blessings that result in ones home and life after the chastising. Weeping may endure for a night...but joy!

Upon my own salvation I don't think the Lord considered me a nation. (I may have had a little weight to loose at the time...lol)

While it is your perogative to not believe the verses mean nations, it is also mine to believe that they do.
<<<


I guess I'm not understanding your point.  Are you referring to Isaiah 2:4?

Isaiah 2:4

4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

You are saying that this can only mean a nation of people and not individuals??  So you believe an entire nation will be saved at one time??  This is speaking about salvation to individual people who come out of nations, not entire nations at once.

Look at the following passage:

Genesis 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

With your interpretation of scripture, we would have to say there were entire nations in Rebekah's womb????  I don't think so.  We know there were two children in her womb, but we know they developed into two distinct nations.

Did Abraham really father many nations?

Genesis 17:5-14
5   Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6   And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7   And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8   And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9   And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10   This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11   And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12   And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13   He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14   And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Yes he did, in the sense that he was the father of the people of God.  People who are pulled from the nations of the earth.  A people who are separated by the circumcision of the heart.  They represent every tongue, tribe, and nation, but they have one thing in common:  they have all been saved by the grace of God.

Isaiah 11:1-12
1   And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2   And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3   And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4   But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5   And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6   The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7   And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8   And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9   They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10   And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12   And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Jesus Christ has been lifted up as an ensign to the nations and they have come in one by one in the kingdom of God.  To understand this any other way would not make sense.  Entire nations are not going to be saved in some glorious time of salvation.

Look in Revelation and we find many examples to help us understand this language.

Revelation 14:4-6
4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6   And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

The gospel has been preached to every nation and the elect of those nations have been translated into the kingdom of God, so that every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people are represented.

Revelation 17:5
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Revelation 21:24
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Zechariah 2:11
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

It's not that tough of language to understand, I think you are trying to force the scriptures to say something they do not.

Bradley



beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2003, 12:53:04 AM »
Quote
You are saying that this can only mean a nation of people and not individuals??  So you believe an entire nation will be saved at one time??  This is speaking about salvation to individual people who come out of nations, not entire nations at once.

Hab:2:14: For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

The above scripture says (not me), that the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord like the water covers the sea.

In reading the entire chapter it is concerning a rebuke to cause this all encompassed knowledge upon the earth.


Isaiah 2:4
4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:3
3  And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


The above scriptures say (not me), that the Lord will rebuke nations causing them to stop their violence.

This is in no way forcing something to say what it doesn't.











Bradley

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2003, 11:40:07 AM »
Hab:2:14: For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

The above scripture says (not me), that the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord like the water covers the sea.

In reading the entire chapter it is concerning a rebuke to cause this all encompassed knowledge upon the earth.


You are taking one verse and trying to force this to mean there will be nations saved at one time in some glorious time of salvation.  That does not line up with the rest of the Bible.

Isaiah 11:9-10
9   They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10   And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

When did the root of Jesse stand up for an ensign to the people?  When was the knowledge of the Lord given?

Jesus Christ is the root of Jesse and the knowledge of the Lord has been given with the Holy Spirit.  We come back full circle.  The kingdom is now.  The knowledge is now.  The earth is filled with the knowledge of the glory of God now, and the nations (gentiles) are the ones brought into the kingdom through this knowledge.

Romans 15:7-13
7   Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
8   Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9   And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10   And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11   And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12   And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13   Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 4:5-6
5   For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6   For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:17-20
17   That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18   The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19   And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20   Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Complete harmony with the Word of God!!!

Bradley


Tony Warren

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2003, 03:15:51 AM »
>>>
Hab:2:14: For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Can you tell me one inch of the sea that is not covered with water? Have you seen this covering of the knowledge of the Lord on the earth in your lifetime, or in history?
<<<

This is the language of God's judgment as the glory of the Lord is revealed. To look at this chapter as speaking about Satan as totally bound, and the literal nations are becoming righteous is to totally ignore the context, which is just the opposite.

Habakkuk 2:12-15
  • "Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and stablisheth a city by iniquity!
  • Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
  • For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
  • Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"

You have taken the middle verse "out of its context." Hardly a prophecy of the nations (as you understand them) becoming righteous or Satan becoming bound (as you understand it). It is the time when David's righteous Branch has come to earth and set up the kingdom. It's a time of judgment. A time when the gospel (the knowledge of the Lord) is going out to all nations (filling the earth), not just the Jews. That makes it Christ's first advent where He established His kingdom and reign, and we (His People) have now been translated into it. One cannot be translated into "the Kingdom of Christ" as scripture says we have been, if Christ hasn't yet come to set it up, or established it. That would be a contradiction. The Apostle John understood that He was a companion of the brethren in this kingdom of Christ.

Revelation 1:9
  • "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Not a companion in a kingdom that has not yet be established, but one Christ already set up and sat down at the right hand of the father to rule in.


Quote
>>>
Mic:4:3: And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I can't believe these verses are speaking of a time in heaven because there will be no need of rebuke in heaven. This is speaking of a time on earth when satan is totally bound.
<<<

I don't say that this speaks about a time in heaven. Rather it speaks of the time when Christ went to the cross and established his kingdom, where the people will not war with God anymore, but have Peace with God (swords into plowshares) where they sow and plant. They will be servants of God sowing seed as they turn their weapons of war into tools for planting seed. It's s spiritual picture or figure of the turning to proclaim the gospel. If you are going to take that literally, I suppose you look at it as a time when all the tanks and guns of the world will be melted down into farm tools? That's not going to happen. There will always be "literal" wars, famine, and desease? They cannot be a sign of anything except man's fall and degradation.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2003, 02:32:58 PM »
Quote
This is the language of God's judgment as the glory of the Lord is revealed. To look at this chapter as speaking about Satan as totally bound, and the literal nations are becoming righteous is to totally ignore the context, which is just the opposite.

Who said they would all be rightous?

The scripture does not say they will be rightous but all the earth will know the glory of the Lord...like the water covers the sea.  Violence will be stopped.

It seems to me that the only one that would be upset with this promise would be the devil.

Quote
That's not going to happen.

Yeah...well many said the same sort things to Caleb.




Tony Warren

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2003, 04:34:15 PM »
>>>
Who said they would all be rightous?

The scripture does not say they will be rightous but all the earth will know the glory of the Lord...like the water covers the sea.
<<<

Then why equate the water covering the sea with Satan's total binding, and be so adamant about its total covering power as waters cover the sea (as you put it)? Think about i, it's totally Ironic that those who hold your view object when we say Satan "was not" bound totally so that all nations are righteous and are not deceived, but they also object if we were to say Satan "was" bound totally for the nations to make them righteous that they are not deceived. You can't have it both ways where they won't all be righteous, but it will not be a partial binding for some either. So which is it? Are the nations deceived or aren't they? If he's not bound so that everyone is not deceived, then you have come full circle to what Amillennialists believe--that being bound for the nations does not mean all the people in the world, but an election only.

The fact is, true to God's word, Israel was judged, and the gospel is preached in all the world as waters cover the sea, and all nations do call Him blessed (Russians, Mexicans, Canadians, Africans, Romans, the French, etc.) as there are Christians all over he world. All the world does know the glory of the Lord just as scripture prophesied. It is not just the hope of the Jews anymore, but it is the hope of the entire earth. Living waters indeed have gone forth from Jerusalem to water the whole earth. Selah.

Colossians 1:5-6
  • "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
  • Which is come unto you, as it is ]in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:"

I didn't say that, God's word says that. Indeed, all the earth, by the death and resurrection of Christ and His subsequent pouring out of the Holy Spirit, does know the glory of the Lord, like the water covers the sea. These passages affirms the wide diffusion of the gospel, and not the Christianization of political nations (as also some Postmillennarians believe). Because of Christ, the gospel, preached unto the ends of the earth influences all the world, as living waters go out from Jerusalem.

John 7:38-39
  • "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
  • (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

The question is not one of if the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea, but "how" the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. It's a question of "how" the nations of the world will be blessed, and of "how" the whole earth shall be filled with His glory. Not If, but how. Was it fulfilled as Premillennialism defines it, or as God defined it.

The truth is, all nations are blessed in Christ (to Him do the Gentiles / Nations seek), and the whole earth is filled with His glory by the promulgation and dissemination of the gospel from Israel to the whole earth by the work of Christ in binding Satan that the nations are also loosed from deception of the evil one. Like the mustard seed, starting out small, but spreading out as a tree whose branches cover the whole earth. It's not really such a mystery.

Psalms 72:17-19
  • "His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
  • Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
  • And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen."

Interpretations as God defines them, Kingdoms as God defines them, the whole earth filled with His glory as God defines it.


Quote
>>>
That's not going to happen.


Yeah...well many said the same sort things to Caleb.
<<<

You're of course free to believe whatever you want. But the Scriptures are very clear that Satan was bound at the cross for the sake of the nations. But as it is also written, "...who hath believed our testimony?"

 Romans 10:16-18
  • "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
  • So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
  • But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Not all will believe the report or publication of these truths. Thus it is evident that the faith of the gospel is not common to all that physically hear the gospel. The hearing of the word is necessary unto faith, but faith doesn't necessarily follow the hearing of the word. Nevertheless, the "fact" is, Christianity as grown now all over the world from a starting point of 12 men in Jerusalem. The earth is indeed full of the knowledge of the Lord (2nd Peter 1:3).

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"



beauty4ashes

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2003, 10:31:57 AM »
Tony Warren,

It is hard for me to explain because it needs spiritual eyes to see.

Just because the nations are not decieved and satan is bound and stops the violence, does not mean that within the heart the nations wouldn't want war.

To be bound does not mean rightous.

As a matter of fact the rightous are totally free in Christ.

Yes, I am free to trust God's promises.

David Knoles

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2003, 02:20:02 PM »
Mister Warren,
  Would you like to continue the discussions we had about Premillennialism? I feel that I have studied the issue further and have much more ammunition in favor of this view, where it's less likely that you will be able to monopolize the discussion with scriptures that I can't address. For your information, there are answers to the questions you are always raising. You just have to ask the right people.
 

Tony Warren

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2003, 04:29:22 PM »
>>>
Mister Warren,
  Would you like to continue the discussions we had about Premillennialism?
<<<

Not especially, but if you have some new information that you would like to share, then by all means I'm open to hear it.


Quote
>>>
I feel that I have studied the issue further and have much more ammunition in favor of this view, where it's less likely that you will be able to monopolize the discussion with scriptures that I can't address.
<<<

It will be refreshing to read you actually addressing the scriptures ;)


Quote
>>>
For your information, there are answers to the questions you are always raising. You just have to ask the right people.
<<<

I admit that many Christians approach their understanding scripture that way, but I prefer asking God instead. And the only way to do that, in our day, is by the careful study of "His words" so that we correctly glean what "He" is saying. i.e., the Bible is its own interpreter, dictionary, and authority. So you ask the "right" people (if you can find right people), and I'll ask God through His inerrant word. That way I know the answer is God's infallible word, not someone else's.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

judykanova

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2003, 04:35:17 PM »
Quote
For your information, there are answers to the questions you are always raising. You just have to ask the right people.

David, perhaps you can actually begin the discussion by presenting Scripture you wish to have considered (as per forum guidelines)?

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

David Knoles

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Re: Premillennialism / Literalism?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2003, 09:34:47 PM »
Judy, I always present scriptures. Just because you interpret them differently doesn't mean anything.

Tony,
Ok, let me again go over the basics of the true Premillennial teachings to you. Anyone who wants to follow along should read the book about "Waiting for His Son from Heaven", By Dr. Dave Breese. It will show clearly how this goes. The Church is taken out of the world before the tribulation, and the seven years starts when the prince makes the covenant.

Daniel 9:27
 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

And the Jews will be enduring until the King returns. The seven years of the Tribulation will have now gone by. People have been martyred by the millions. People have also been converted by the millions to the Gospel of the Kingdom. God's purpose is to have all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4
 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

God's purpose cannot fail. What is taking place in the Tribulation, at the time of the return of Christ with His Christian Cavalry? The answer is, that the world has gathered its armies, in an attempt to overthrow the city of Jerusalem. Jerusalem, in my judgment, by that time, will be the last vestige of good religion in the world. It will be thought of by the Antichrist as a repository of faith, which must be done away with, so he can rule the world unhindered by anybody.

 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".

But he can't do it. And why? Because this cavalry from Heaven comes to rescue the city of Jerusalem and all the Jews that are in it. It will be a quite fantastic event. In the end, the Christian Cavalry will help deliver the Jews from the Antichrist.

 


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