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Author Topic: The End Of The Church Age  (Read 37405 times)

Red

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2009, 04:46:55 PM »
I just want to say a big AMEN to Mr. Warren's reply back. I have always been feed, instructed, in a soberly manner by reading this dear bother's articles. The Lord has without question, giving him a special gift to be used for the saint's edification. This forum is bless indeed to have him. May he ever stay faithful to his high calling.

Red Baker
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, NO, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, (which could ONLY be true concerning his humanity) but the Father. Mark 13:32

"........Before that Philip callled thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW THEE." Christ's Divinity saw him.

George

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #151 on: November 13, 2009, 11:14:32 AM »
Red,
  First, your post is a clear violation of the forum rules. Read the guidelines. Second, please refrain from deifying Tony as he is not God. His teachings aren't perfect and he spiritualizes. You're not to get into personalities, so leave Tony out of this discussion. Third, the topic is the End of the Church age. So if you have nothing to say from the bible concering this topic, please don't post here. Abide by Tony's rules. Fourth, the topic at hand.

 1st Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 How can the pillar and ground of the truth end? Will truth end? then how can it's pillar and ground? You see, the bible speaks clearly concerning the Church.

Red

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #152 on: November 13, 2009, 04:00:25 PM »
Red,
  First, your post is a clear violation of the forum rules. Read the guidelines. Second, please refrain from deifying Tony as he is not God. His teachings aren't perfect and he spiritualizes. You're not to get into personalities, so leave Tony out of this discussion. Third, the topic is the End of the Church age. So if you have nothing to say from the bible concering this topic, please don't post here. Abide by Tony's rules. Fourth, the topic at hand.

 1st Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 How can the pillar and ground of the truth end? Will truth end? then how can it's pillar and ground? You see, the bible speaks clearly concerning the Church.



I apologize if I have broken rules of this forum. That being said, I never said that Mr. Warren was God or that he is even close to being infallible. I never said that his teachings are perfect, read my post dear sir. You must not like Jesus' teaching or Paul since they both used allegories when the scriptures demanded that they do so. Galatians 4:21-31 And our Lord used it to HID TRUTH from men. Matthew 13:10-17

Allow me to add this, since you mentioned to me.

ICAHABOD is written over MOST of the OUTWARD professing churches in our day. The man of sin is reigning WITHIN and the glory of God HAS DEPARTED. Most will NOT endure SOUND doctrine and they HEAPED to themselves teachers that will say to them WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR. They hate men who know how to interpret to scriptures., for they themselves DO NOT.

Red Baker


"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, NO, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, (which could ONLY be true concerning his humanity) but the Father. Mark 13:32

"........Before that Philip callled thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW THEE." Christ's Divinity saw him.

Red

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #153 on: November 14, 2009, 04:58:58 AM »
George,

You sound just like those of Jeremiah's days, who could NOT believe that "the pillar and ground of the truth" of the earth could possible go into captivity by the hands of a pagan king and nation. The Jeremiah's of our days (and there are only a few of them and they are very hard to find) are hated and rejected because they too are warning the people of Judaea to FLEE; the reason why, truth is fallen in the street and there are only a very few who have any love for it. Those who's eyes are open by the God of heaven CAN SEE the abomination standeth where he OUGHT NOT. The Jeremiah's of our days have been put to silence by strange children who's spots are NOT the spots of the most high.

George, these truths seem to be a prick to your spirit, that would concern me, if I were in your shoes! If you do not like the warnings concerning the fallings away of the churches that Paul and Christ PLAINLY said would happen, then quit reading your Bible, for they are in many pages of the scriptures. If you try to "penknife" those scriptures from your Bible, it will make no difference, they will still come to pass as the Most High said they would. Read Jeremiah 36!

Red Baker 
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, NO, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, (which could ONLY be true concerning his humanity) but the Father. Mark 13:32

"........Before that Philip callled thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW THEE." Christ's Divinity saw him.

Tony Warren

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #154 on: November 14, 2009, 03:47:38 PM »
>>>
 1st Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
<<<

This is a widespread misconception. But the truth is, Christ is the House of God which is the Pillar and foundation of truth. Thus, only the elect in Him, are the true witnesses of truth. Christ is the true House, the Israel, the Ground or base, the church, the Seed, the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Tent, dwelling place, etc., and the only true ground or basis of truth. We  (the elect) can be pillars of God only in the sense that we are built up a holy habitation of God in Him. The external Covenant church is not the foundation of truth, except in Christ. And that is why the church Has, can and shall fall. just as God does, you also have to distinguish between the corporate church body, and the indivisible eternal church in Christ. Else you can never understand the Covenant Promise to that church that it cannot fall.

2nd Peter 1:10[
  • "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Why would God be giving this warning to a church that cannot fall or fail? well, He wouldn't! He's saying that to a church that can fall. A church that can fail if they are not Elect. A congregation that needs to be warned of just this possibility. They are the church, but they are not the Pillar and ground of truth. The ground or foundation of truth is neither a building, an assembly of fallible men, or a congregation of the collective brethren, it is the House whose builder and maker is God. Except you abide in that house, your church can fall. The two witnesses come with the testimony of that truth in the corporate church, while the rest inside that church do not. And why not? Because they are not in Christ, the Pillar and ground of the truth. There is no other ground [hedraioma] and Pillar of truth wherein the saints do uphold truth. If you think that the Pillar and ground of truth is a church assembly or congregation of men, you are very mistaken. Like the Roman Catholics, you're not taking the whole Bible into consideration concerning where the truth is. eg:

Revelation 3:1
  • "And unto the angel of the Church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead."

Do you think God was telling this Messenger of the church that it was the pillar and ground of the truth that cannot fall? On the contrary. He was telling him the exact opposite. Just as God warned in Revelation 2:5 that the Messengers had to remember from where they had fallen, or else God would come and would remove their church out of it's place. This (God's word) is plainly contradicting man's word that the corporate church cannot fall, or that it is the Pillar and ground of the truth. Obviously it was and is not! There are churches that think they are the infallible foundation or ground of the truth, but they delude themselves. Without the Word of God (Christ) there is no ground or foundation of truth.


Quote
>>>
How can the pillar and ground of the truth end?
<<<

Exactly the point. Since the seven churches of Asia transgressed and all ended, then it is evident that they were not the pillars and ground or foundation of truth and they could be judged of God. The Pillar and ground of the truth that will never end, is Christ. If we are in Christ, we become pillars that will never end. ie, we "represent" the body of Christ, not that we physically are Him, but Spiritually. We come with His word of truth, not our own word. If the external or corporate church was the Pillar and ground of the truth, none could ever fall, apostasize or fail. Because, as you ask, How can the pillar and ground of the truth end?



Quote
>>>
Will truth end? then how can it's pillar and ground? You see, the bible speaks clearly concerning the Church.
<<<

...Yes, it does. It always has.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

John

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #155 on: November 15, 2009, 03:36:48 AM »

Quote
But the truth is, Christ is the House of God which is the Pillar and foundation of truth. Thus, only the elect in Him, are the true witnesses of truth. Christ is the true House, the Israel, the Ground or base, the Church, the Seed, the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Tent, dwelling place, etc., and the only true ground or basis of truth. We (the elect) can be pillars of God only in the sense that we are built up a holy habitation of God in Him. The external Covenant Church is not the foundation of truth, except in Christ.


Excellent post!  It is not some de facto ruler in the external Covenant Church that is the ground of the truth, as much as the Church would believe it to be so. Christ is the Truth, His Word is Truth, and He is the Foundation the Chief Cornerstone that elect are fitted upon and into. Unless the house pillars are firmly planted on that foundation, it is an unstable house that is ready to fall.

If the Church proper were the ground of truth, then we would have leadership committees and pastors determining truth for us rather than the Spirit of Christ leading us into all truth. But seminary degrees do not decree necessarily those of God’s choosing – the ones upon which God will write His name- a new name, nor the ones that are called the city of God - prepared as a bride. It is God's elect that are made sturdy columns in the house of God - which is Christ Himself. We each are metaphorically blocks in that house - and as part of Christ's body the eternal Church, we "shall not go out any more". We are secure in Christ.
 
Rev 3:11-12
11 --  Behold, I am coming quickly. Hold what you have that no one take your crown.
12 --  The one overcoming, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall not go out any more. And I will write the name of My God on him, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.


Who is the one overcoming - that is made a pillar in the temple of God? The one overcoming "shall in no way be harmed by the second death" (Rev 2:11), is given "hidden manna to eat" (Rev 2:17), and will eat of the Tree of Life (Rev 2:7). Only possible by the power of Christ who has made us abide in His temple – as living stones. As Christ is the pillar and ground of the truth we by abiding in Him, if we do have part in His nature, are to testify to that truth.

Plainly, the one who overcomes evil and defeats Satan does so by the Spirit of God - but overcoming is possible only "because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world" (1 John 4:4b). Whoever hangs their life on Jesus with God-given faith will persevere to the end - the saints of God cannot fail or fall - they are sealed and hidden in Christ and in God the Father.  While the elect are sealed and cannot fail – we have been warned that Satan will have his season to overcome the saints.

1Jn 5:4-5
4 --  because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world--your faith.
5 --  Who is he that overcomes the world, if not he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 
The church is composed of both precious jewels in God's eyes and worthless stubble fit to be burned. The stubble will worship the beast and trample down the saints - so the warning to overcome is real. Those who don't overcome, and fall into apostasy are like those in the temple of God composed of untested mortar - wood, hay, and straw.  It is like a house built on a foundation of sand (men) rather than on the Rock (Christ), and when the storm of testing comes - it collapses.

The elect cannot be spiritually killed (subject to damnation) for they are part of the spiritual body of Christ; they are unmovable building blocks in the eternal Temple. But physically they can be killed - and their bodily temple destroyed. Though the physical temple is destroyed easily enough, there remains a spiritual part that cannot be killed. Likewise, though the true Temple is Christ and we abide in that spiritual Temple - the physical external Temple is subject to destruction, and will fall.

1Co 3:16-17
16 --  Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 --  If anyone destroys the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 
Satan can destroy the external churches through the mechanism of carnally-minded unregenerate men. As he tramples the saints they will leave the churches to the unregenerate - until it becomes a synagogue of Satan and he rules over them. God's warning to overcome implies that the time will come when the church no longer will endure sound doctrine and thereby succumbs to Satan's lies. The spiritual Temple - God's elect - are still fixed solidly and fitted together in Christ - yet all the while the corporal churches are a wasteland inhabited by every foul and unclean thing.

Those who abide in Christ have Christ in them, and their names are written in the Lamb's book of life, having eaten of the manna, and partaken of the tree of life - these Satan has no eternal power over. He can destroy the physical – yet he cannot touch the relationship of the elect to Christ the everlasting Temple and collectively we remain Christ's body.

The temporal temple can be killed (the witnesses) and the external temples will fall (the churches) - thus ending the pillar and ground of the truth as it exists in its earthly context. Nevertheless in its heavenly context the relationship cannot be broken or altered - for Christ is the Pillar and Foundation of the unchanging truth that His elect subsist in an unending relationship to - never to be overcome positionally from our heavenly abode in Christ- though Satan rages upon its outward manifestation to his own destruction.

john
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Shirley

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #156 on: April 30, 2010, 07:36:46 AM »
One thing I am having a problem with. Why would God judge the whole Church for the sins of some of the people inside? Should the few suffer for the sins of the many?

Robert

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2010, 11:05:32 AM »
In “the end of the Church post” Steve says:

     
Quote
Clearly, we can have much discussion about the validity and witness of much of the Church, but I am of the belief that when Jesus said that the gates of hell cannot prevail against His Church, (Matthew 16:18) He was fairly serious about that issue.
     I would certainly welcome further discussion with you and others to flesh out this topic.
Quote

Ad to that the Lord's sure words in Matt. 16:18-19 when He included what He would build; the “kingdom of heaven.” "…on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,".

   Here He said He would build His assembly (ekklesia) that is erroneously translated church, and identified it when He gave Peter the keys to the same kingdom of heaven that they had been offering. The gates of Hades has nothing to do with the present assembly of Christ, it's a prison for demons and lost mankind and has no communication with or power over the present church. What He was saying was, the gates of Hades could not prevail against Him building the kingdom of heaven assembly. It could not hold Him, because He would rise from the dead and yet build the very kingdom of heaven on earth that they all had been offering.

The end of the church age is as James and Paul pointed out.   

At the counsel in Jerusalem in AD 50 James says that at this present time God is now taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name. And then adds, “After this,” God will begin the rebuilding of David’s kingdom which has fallen down. Paul says the same thing in Rom. 11:25-26 that blindness in part has happened to Israel “until” the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Meaning this present age that ends with the rapture, and “then” all Israel will be saved. Here are James’s remarks.

“Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. “And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
   ‘After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord. Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the ‘Lord who does all these things’ (Acts 15:14-18).”

When James above says God is present taking out a people for His name and “after this,” he is certainly speaking of church saints from the beginning and the final and total removal of the church in the rapture. After which will begin the time of Jacob’s trouble when Israel makes make’s a seven year covenant with the Antichrist who breaks it at the middle of the seven years and sits himself in the temple as god (Dan. 9:25-27).


Paul says of the end of the present church age:

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The deliverer will come out of Zion, And turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:25-29).

   Of course the “all” is the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 that will survive the tribulation. When Paul says then “all Israel” will be saved, he is continuing his remarks from Rom. 11:5 where he speaks of even at that time a remnant was being saved, but then, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in through the church at the rapture, all Israel will be saved.

    Here it is plain that God intends to bring the church and present Dispensation of Grace to a conclusion before the beginning of the re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel. That time of rebuilding the kingdom of David is identical to Daniel’s 70th week and the 7 years tribulation period will begin immediately after the rapture when the cry went out to meet the bridegroom who is coming. But he was delayed. The delay is the seven years when God begins to rebuild the kingdom of David with the two witnesses preaching the gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 24:14, ending with His coming and the establishment of the kingdom when He comes. He said:

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30).

I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed (Dan. 7:13-14).

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15)!

In His grace

Robert

Terry

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #158 on: May 12, 2010, 01:13:15 PM »


The end of the church age is as James and Paul pointed out.   

At the counsel in Jerusalem in AD 50 James says that at this present time God is now taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name. And then adds, “After this,” God will begin the rebuilding of David’s kingdom which has fallen down. Paul says the same thing in Rom. 11:25-26 that blindness in part has happened to Israel “until” the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Meaning this present age that ends with the rapture, and “then” all Israel will be saved. Here are James’s remarks.

 Sorry, but that is a distortion of the text. It doesn't say that there, nor anywhere else in the bible. That is a man made interpretation. And saving the nation of Israel really isn't the topic of this thread.



Robert

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #159 on: May 12, 2010, 02:48:07 PM »
Hi Terry. You say:

Quote
Sorry, but that is a distortion of the text. It doesn't say that there, nor anywhere else in the bible. That is a man made interpretation. And saving the nation of Israel really isn't the topic of this thread.
Quote

What are you going to do with the text from Acts 15 and Rom. 11. that I included? I don’t expect you to take my word for anything. That is the reason I quote the Scriptures.

Would you please give us your understanding of the Scriptures quoted? As to a man-made interpretation, I don’t know of any other “interpretation.”

Concerning saving the nation Israel, the thread was about when the church ends, and I simply showed where it ends. That is, when God takes up the business of redeeming Israel, and to show that the church does not die, but will be removed.

I noticed you did not quote any Scriptures. If you disagree with me show me where from the Scriptures I am wrong.

The best to you Terry

In His grace

Robert

Erik Diamond

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #160 on: August 29, 2017, 03:06:12 PM »
Quote from: Tony Warren
Romans 11:2-5
  • "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
  • Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
  • But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
  • Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
A mere "TINY" fraction of the whole. Elijah looked around at all the abominations and without the help of Radio, Telephones, or the Internet, thought that he was the only true believer left alive. Well he wasn't right, but he wasn't far from wrong either. In other words, they were Scarce! I'm sure the other seven thousand scattered across the land probably felt similarly separated. That's the nature of apostasy, famine of the word of God, and judgment upon this people. There is not many, just a tiny remnant. And in the Great Tribulation, so few in fact that God declares if these days of tribulation weren't shortened, there wouldn't be any flesh left on earth to save.

Do you believe that God was talking about exact 7,000 head count of Jewish believers in Israel the moment God told Elijah?  This is what most people believe but I may disagree.  Being omnipresent, God is talking about the fullness of His Covenant Israel that Elijah is merely part of.  Elijah may think there are 7,000 believers in Israel, but God is talking about something bigger so He still has work for Elijah to do on behalf of Covenant Israel which the old testament congregation once represented.We know that the number 7 in Scripture signifies totality, and number, 10 and its multiples (100, 1000) signifies fullness of whatever is in view. So to me, 7 x 1,000 = 7,000 which could means totality and fullness of God's congregation.  Just like when we read in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

God is not talking about exact 7,000 men being killed in the city, but rather ALL and EVERY men without the seal of God be slain. I believe God talked about a totality destruction of unfaithful congregation.  Everyone within the unfaithful church, but only Remnant Elect come out and stand afar off to witness the fall of church.  That is why we mourned over them.

Likewise, when God told Elijah that He reserved Himself 7,000 who have not bow to baal, He was talking about His True Covenant Israel, ALL of ELECT, who have not worshiped the beast, his image neither received his mark, which Elijah is part of.

Agree?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Walt Lee

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #161 on: August 30, 2017, 07:15:14 AM »
God is not talking about exact 7,000 men

Agree?


No, I believe that when God;'s word says there were 7000 who have not bowed the knee, that's exactly how many there were.

Tony Warren

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #162 on: August 30, 2017, 09:02:05 AM »
>>>
Romans 11:4-5
"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

A mere "TINY" fraction of the whole. Elijah looked around at all the abominations and without the help of Radio, Telephones, or the Internet, thought that he was the only true believer left alive. Well he wasn't right, but he wasn't far from wrong either. In other words, they were Scarce! I'm sure the other seven thousand scattered across the land probably felt similarly separated. That's the nature of apostasy, famine of the word of God,

Do you believe that God was talking about exact 7,000 head count of Jewish believers in Israel the moment God told Elijah?  This is what most people believe but I may disagree.  Being omnipresent, God is talking about the fullness of His Covenant Israel that Elijah is merely part of.
<<<

I don't really know, but I tend to think it was both. In other words, the number 7000 is deliberate to symbolize the completeness of the Israel of God, as we see throughout Scripture. But also God, being Sovereign and Predestinating the elect, made sure there were literally 7000 elect remaining of the whole nation. Just as Christ made sure there were very literally seven loaves, and those seven loaves fed four thousand, and what was left afterward was seven literal baskets of crumbs. Just because the number has spiritual significance doesn't necessarily mean it was not literal. It simply means the number represents something spiritual.


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #163 on: August 30, 2017, 10:49:49 AM »
Okay. Thank you, Tony.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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