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Author Topic: The End Of The Church Age  (Read 36299 times)

Reformer

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2005, 05:03:57 AM »
Quote from Reformer:
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So there really is an end of the Church age? And perhaps it is time to come out of the Churches.

Man--made slogans such as 'end-of-the-church-age' should never be substituted for Scriptures which, in this instance, doesn't convey the exact same meaning and is based upon false premises.

I almost hesitate to reply to this post because like the messages concerning politics, it always seems doomed to wild emotionalism rather than rational biblical thinking. Nevertheless, I'll jump in the deep end of the pool because I think the issue is important.

The phrase "Church Age" is a legitimate description of the period when the Lord's church is going forth and people are being saved through it. I don't see any reason to get bent out of shape because someone uses it. Phrases like the trinity, the rapture, infant baptism, or any of the other phrases Christians use are not specifically mentioned in scripture, but they are useful phrases. When Christ established his church, he established the church age or the church period. When there is no more oil, as in the parable of the 10 virgins, it will be the end of the church age. No one else will be saved during this period.


Quote
Those who claim that "all" churches will fall, find that it serves their purpose to ignore the clear conditions/qualifiers that Scriptures provide that describe and define which churches will surely fall. 

That's not true at all. If we take away all the emotionalism we can see very clearly that all Churches will fall and salvation will end. I am not ignoring anything. But if we don't want to hear it, then we just shut off our ears to it. Revelation chapter 11 clearly says the Church will fall and all the saints will be dead in the midst of it. Have you read Tony's study of Revelation chapter 11? Even in Revelation chapter 7 God clearly says that his plagues on the earth will not start until all the elect are saved. And the plagues come when Babylon falls and we are to come out. 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 clearly says that there will be a falling away from God that the man of sin will rule in the church. Not one Church, but the Church. Both Christ and Satan cannot rule in the same church. Matthew 24 clearly says that the abomination of desolation will stand in the church, the holy place. Not in one church, in the church, and the true believers are to flee. And so on and so forth.

You talk about how it serves our purpose to ignore the clear scriptures, I see it as just the opposite. I am facing these scriptures while the church is ignoring them. They are blindly ignoring the O-so-many scriptures like Revelation 17 and 18 that clearly show the fall of Babylon, which is the church, as a catastrophic event. So we can go on an emotional tirade about certain people we think are ignoring scriptures, but I'd much rather address the scriptures in a calm rational reasonable fashion.

 Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Isn't this why the servants of God are sealed before God pours out his plagues as told in Revelation chapter 7? Clearly, the church will fall and it will be the end of the church period or age, and the saints are told to come out that they don't receive the plagues God pours out.

 

Reformer

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2005, 05:23:55 AM »
The way I see things, I dont believe that every literal buildings of the church have to fall in one literal day in order to have THE Great Tribulation here. It is a GRADUAL thing.

Gradual or not, the Church eventually falls. Not like some people think that it will still be functioning and saving people when Christ returns. That is not possible, according to the scriptures that I read. Babylon will fall, and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. And Babylon is the Church.

Do you disagree that Babylon is the Church?

Reformer

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2005, 05:35:03 AM »
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The above scripture is clear that when it is the Temple of God, it talks in totality.  No local church is spared.

God Bless,

DSOUZAANTHONY


 You are correct Anthony,
   There is no question about it. God is not prophecying about one of the local churches falling, or a fall like that of the Roman Catholic Church years ago, he is prophecying of the fall of his holy temple. The fall of Baylon where the saints must come out. The Lord's coming won't happen until there is this great event, that is what God is saying. It's not a great collection of churches falling away, that has happened many times before. But it is Babylon falling. The antichrist sitting in the holy place causing it's desolation. I don't see how anyone can miss or deny this. In revelation chapter 11 we see the Church as the two witnesses. Look what it says.

 Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually

They are killed in the church all of them. And as the church rejoices over their death, they ultimately come to life and leave the streets of that city where they laid, ascending to God. And Babylon comes into remembrance. The Church falls. This is the church in totality falling, because all except the two witnesses who were killed will have been maked of the beast.


bloodstone

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2005, 10:46:25 AM »
Reformer, unfortunately, I ran into the same type of emotional opposition when I attempted to discuss the possibility of the Church falling. No matter what scripture I submitted, it would always get swung around and end up about what some individual teaches, rather than the scripture I was talking about.


Revelation 17:16
 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."


This is one question I'd like addressed. If the whore is the Church, and she is made naked and desolate, isn't that the end of the church age? Scripture says she will fall and never rise again. To me, that signals the end of the church.

Any "biblical" rather than emotional comments are welcomed? Particularly from you Erik. Because I always thought you understood these scriptures to say this. But it sounds like you maybe have changed your opinion about the church being overrun.


bloodstone

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2005, 10:58:46 AM »
Judy,

I believe Christians have been getting sealed and will be sealed up until the day Christ returns.  I believe the 144,000 is not a literal number but the number of the complete church including all members throughout time.


 Impossible. Revelation chapter seven tells us that the sealing will end long before Christ returns, and the plagues will be poured out on the earth in the meantime.


Quote
Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Raybob

 Sealed unto the day of redemption does not mean people are sealed up until the very day of redemption. It means sealed unto or sealed for the day of redemption. In other words, we are sealed and that seal secures us to the day of redemption. We can't be lost.

 Ephesians 1:14
"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory".


So many people here are using scriptures in the wrong way in order to support a bad conclusion.


judykanova

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2005, 04:35:22 PM »

Man--made slogans such as 'end-of-the-church-age' should never be substituted for Scriptures which, in this instance, doesn't convey the exact same meaning and is based upon false premises.


I almost hesitate to reply to this post because like the messages concerning politics, it always seems doomed to wild emotionalism rather than rational biblical thinking. Nevertheless, I'll jump in the deep end of the pool because I think the issue is important.

The phrase "Church Age" is a legitimate description of the period when the Lord's church is going forth and people are being saved through it. I don't see any reason to get bent out of shape because someone uses it. Phrases like the trinity, the rapture, infant baptism, or any of the other phrases christians use are not specifically mentioned in scripture, but they are useful phrases. When Christ established his church, he established the church age or the church period. When there is no more oil, as in the parable of the 10 virgins, it will be the end of the church age. No one else will be saved during this period.

Quote
Those who claim that "all" churches will fall, find that it serves their purpose to ignore the clear conditions/qualifiers that Scriptures provide that describe and define which churches will surely fall. 


That's not true at all. If we take away all the emotionalism we can see very clearly that all Churches will fall and salvation will end. I am not ignoring anything. But if we don't want to hear it, then we just shut off our ears to it. Revelation chapter 11 clearly says the Church will fall and all the saints will be dead in the midst of it. Have you read Tony's study of Revelation chapter 11? Even in Revelation chapter 7 God clearly says that his plagues on the earth will not start until all the elect are saved. And the plagues come when Babylon falls and we are to come out. 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 clearly says that there will be a falling away from God that the man of sin will rule in the church. Not one Church, but the Church. Both Christ and Satan cannot rule in the same church. Matthew 24 clearly says that the abomination of desolation will stand in the church, the holy place. Not in one church, in the church, and the true believers are to flee. And so on and so forth.



Reformer,

I don't think that the use of the term "Trinity" is on par with the slogan "end-of-the-church-age' for reasons given -- namely the conditions/qualifiers the Bible describes which result in apostasy.  Moreover, this slogan does not address the fact that the Bible has never rescinded the command to assemble together "especially as the day draws nigh", and the roles/gifts God established for the edification of the body of believers.  It also does not address the contradiction of "fellowships" (or whatever name one choses to use) which biblically speaking is still an assembly of believers -- i.e. a church.

My last post provides ample biblical support for my views -- which you have chosen to characterise as "emotionalism" instead of simply addressing the Scriptures given, and showing where you feel I may have misunderstood them. 

Like you, I also think that this is a very important issue, so I would greatly appreciate if you or bloodstone, or someone would address all the Scriptures I presented in a straigt-forward manner, instead of ignoring them while insisting that all churches will fall regardless of anything.  Unless/until you do so, you can't possibly claim that your view harmonizes with all the Bible. 

With regards to the parable of the 10 virgins, it seems to be that the 5 wise virgins can be viewed as a faithful congregation and the 5 foolish virgins could be viewed as an apostate congregation.  How, for example, can you rule out an assembly of like-minded individuals who are all saved,... however small or wide-spread such groups may be?

Mat 25
1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4  But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.


Would you agree that verse 1 is describing the entire covenant NT church?
I don't think that this depicts an 'us' against 'them' picture -- (remember Paul said God's judgment must frist begin "with us"). It instead seems to depict a division within the church of those who (in this case) are "wise" (faithful) and those who are "foolish" (apostate).

1Pe 4:17 
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


And please don't confuse my view with those who deny God's judgment on apostate churches, or with those who deny the command to 'depart out' of such churches.

Thank you for your consideration of these concerns.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

Chris

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2005, 03:02:47 AM »
Man--made slogans such as 'end-of-the-church-age' should never be substituted for Scriptures


Judy, for those of us reading this debate, it would be nice if you actually addressed the scriptures he put forth showing the church will fall. For example, revelation 17 and 18 of babylon falling. You seem to get a little murky here. I don't consider myself an expert, but it does seem to me he makes a good point as I see those scriptures.

Also, Bradley, John, Tony and Kenneth, you guys are awefully silent on this issue. Can you "please" weigh in on the question of the Church falling. I respect you guys opinion (along with Judy) so I would like to hear your views on if you think the whole Church will fall and if Babylon represents the Church.


Reformer

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2005, 11:22:12 AM »
Reformer,

I don't think that the use of the term "Trinity" is on par with the slogan "end-of-the-church-age' for reasons given

But that's all your emotionalism that you don't "like" the term, because why else would you raise such a stink over it? Because "Trinity" is a term that simply means one God in three persons, and "The Church Age" is a term that means the new testament church period. There is nothing sinister in it until you imagine something sinister about it. Like the trinity, there is nothing sinister in it until certain groups imagine in their mind it means three gods. But that's their problem, not mine.

Personally, I suspect that the reason "none" of the more biblical posters are commenting on this issue is that they understand that there is an end of the church age. Or at least they understand the very biblical rationale for such a belief. It's not like it doesn't have any foundation. Some think the church end comes gradually, some think it comes more quickly, others think it is a creaping apostasy like a cancer, but to deny it out and out I believe is to totally ignore the scriptures.


Quote
this slogan does not address the fact that the Bible has never rescinded the command to assemble together "especially as the day draws nigh"

It's not my slogan (as you insist on calling it), it's a very appropriate definition of the end of the church. I don't know any other way to say the Church comes to an end, but to say the end of the church age. It obviously gets on your nerves somehow, or puts you on edge for some mysterious reason, but it's a simple declaration of my views in a concise manner.

And I'll be happy to address your scripture or question. Assembling together is not a covenant Church. Any biblical pastor will tell you that. Don't get bent out of shape over this, quite clearly the old covenant congregation ended, yet the saints continued to assemble together outside of it in a different manner. One might ask, why didn't God just get rid of all the unbelievers in that congregation instead of destroying it and starting another? Because the congregation had to fall. It was in God's plan. And so is the judgement of that whore babylon, which is the church.

 Tell me where I'm fabricating or abusing scripture here?

Reformer

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2005, 11:34:11 AM »
Impossible. Revelation chapter seven tells us that the sealing will end long before Christ returns, and the plagues will be poured out on the earth in the meantime.

 Sealed unto the day of redemption does not mean people are sealed up until the very day of redemption. It means sealed unto or sealed for the day of redemption. In other words, we are sealed and that seal secures us to the day of redemption. We can't be lost.

 Ephesians 1:14
"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory".


So many people here are using scriptures in the wrong way in order to support a bad conclusion.


 Yes, unfortunately, some people are predisposed to rejecting scripture that contradicts their point of view out of hand without even considering it is the truth. I learned that from Tony Warren over the years. It's just a fact of life.

 Revelation 17:16, 17, 18
 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth".

Yes, that would be "The Church". The same church people are talking about can't completely fall. I'm wondering if they know that Israel said that about their congregation too? Do they know that?


Bradley

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2005, 02:03:35 PM »
During the second half of the final covenant week the corporate church will be turned over to desolation and the true elect of God are commanded to come out and to separate themselves from this abomination.

Revelation 18:4
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This verse in 2 Corinthians speaks to more than just marriage between believers and non-believers.  We know that during the last half of the final covenant week the church will be turned over to darkness and the true believers will be forced to come out from the darkness.

Revelation 16:10
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

1 Thessalonians 5:2-5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

There is a time coming when all of God's elect will be sealed and the work will be complete.  At that time, God will give dominion to Satan for a short season and turn over all those not sealed by his Holy Spirit of promise to delusion.  At this time, when you see the abomination of desolation we are called to flee or to separate ourselves from the darkness.  This does not mean we will no longer assemble as believers, because this very website is a place believers can gather together to discuss the Truth of God's Holy Word.  We are still part of the true temple of God, but the visible representation of God's people will be deluded, and the will wage battle against all true believers to silence the Truth of Scripture.

Matthew 25:1-10
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.
3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Notice when midnight the cry was made, the foolish virgins had no oil (They were not marked by the Spirit).  They had to go to those who bought and sold (corporate church) to find oil.  They went out into the darkness without any light looking for oil and while they were gone the bridegroom came.  The virgins were separated when the bridegroom came.

Bradley

Raybob

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2005, 09:18:13 PM »
I wrote, "I believe Christians have been getting sealed and will be sealed up until the day Christ returns.  I believe the 144,000 is not a literal number but the number of the complete church including all members throughout time."

Bloodstone responds, "Impossible. Revelation chapter seven tells us that the sealing will end long before Christ returns, and the plagues will be poured out on the earth in the meantime."

Revelation seven shows the sealing of 144K but we don't see the 144K as sealed until Rev. 14. when they are shown singing a song with Jesus.  Revelation 7 doesn't mention when the sealing ends. 

The sealing of Christians obviously ends when Christ appears the second time.

As for the church age ending, it has no end, according to the bible.
Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Raybob

dsouzaanthony

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2005, 11:56:19 PM »
[i]As for the church age ending, it has no end, according to the bible.
Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Raybob[/i]




The above scripture is the absolute truth. But have u understood which church is being referred to?  It is the true church (invisible) of God's elect upon which the gates of hell will not prevail. This church which Jesus Christ purchased by His own blood, is for God's glory.

You have disregarded all other scriptures quoted by Reformer, Bloodstone, Bradley.
May God give u understanding.

DSOUZAANTHONY

Raybob

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2005, 12:12:44 AM »
Reformer wrote,  "Assembling together is not a covenant Church."  The only "covenant" church I know of is the one Jesus established at the cross.  As for the protestant corporate churches that meet on Sundays, I don't think they protested enough when they began.  They still have one man (pastor, minister, reverend) as their spiritual leader or go between for the lay people to get to God.  The religious aspects of most of these "churches" is very similar to the synagogues set up by the Pharasies.  If the church age mentioned is speaking of the corportate church, I don't know if God was ever fully into that to begin with.

Raybob

judykanova

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2005, 01:26:14 AM »
Reformer,

I don't think that the use of the term "Trinity" is on par with the slogan "end-of-the-church-age' for reasons given

But that's all your emotionalism that you don't "like" the term, because why else would you raise such a stink over it? Because "Trinity" is a term that simply means one God in three persons, and "The Church Age" is a term that means the new testament church period. There is nothing sinister in it until you imagine something sinister about it. Like the trinity, there is nothing sinister in it until certain groups imagine in their mind it means three gods. But that's their problem, not mine.

Personally, I suspect that the reason "none" of the more biblical posters are commenting on this issue is that they understand that there is an end of the church age. Or at least they understand the very biblical rationale for such a belief. It's not like it doesn't have any foundation. Some think the church end comes gradually, some think it comes more quickly, others think it is a creaping apostasy like a cancer, but to deny it out and out I believe is to totally ignore the scriptures.


Quote
this slogan does not address the fact that the Bible has never rescinded the command to assemble together "especially as the day draws nigh"

It's not my slogan (as you insist on calling it), it's a very appropriate definition of the end of the church. I don't know any other way to say the Church comes to an end, but to say the end of the church age. It obviously gets on your nerves somehow, or puts you on edge for some mysterious reason, but it's a simple declaration of my views in a concise manner.

And I'll be happy to address your scripture or question. Assembling together is not a covenant Church. Any biblical pastor will tell you that. Don't get bent out of shape over this, quite clearly the old covenant congregation ended, yet the saints continued to assemble together outside of it in a different manner. One might ask, why didn't God just get rid of all the unbelievers in that congregation instead of destroying it and starting another? Because the congregation had to fall. It was in God's plan. And so is the judgement of that whore babylon, which is the church.

 Tell me where I'm fabricating or abusing scripture here?



Reformer,

To answer your question, my dislike of the term "end-of-the-church-age' stems from the fact that it is frequently substituted for and treated as part of the Scriptures -- much in the same way as people read commentaries and equate what they read with what the Scriptures actually say.  

And, as a point of clarification, I said nothing against the use of "church age", although your post defends its use as though I have objected to its use.

I fully understand and accept that God's judgment begins at His house; so please don't mischaracterize my concern as "to deny it out and out I believe is to totally ignore the scriptures".  My concerns are based on the Scriptures presented, which you said you "would be happy to address".  I look forward to you doing so with Scripture, as I'm not interested in any pastor's definition of a church, (but find it interesting  that you should refer to "biblical pastors" while you deny the validity of the role).  

As I've said on this forum before, if we were to define a church based on how they conduct themselves,  then many local congregations today wouldn't qualify as a 'church'.  In other words they have abused and in effect abandoned the God-given roles/gifts to the church.  The 'end-of-the-church-age' camp,  has done the same only for different reasons, in an effort to distinguish their assemblies from a "local congregation".  But then again, it's not the roles/rules that got the church in trouble or that are inherently bad; it's the ungodly men who have been wrongly appointed to these roles...

Mat 20
25  But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26  BUT it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27  And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28  Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 3
2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
6  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. ...
7  Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
9  Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10  And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11  Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12  Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13  For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14  These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15  But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


In truth, I think these roles have not been well understood by even those in the 'end-of-the-church-age' camp, because the Scriptures' emphases is not on authority, but rather on service.  And their abandonment of them misplaces the blame to where it rightly belongs -- which is against ungodly church leaders.

So I ask myself... where in the Bible did God rescind these things.  Morever, if they were adhered to in the way intended, would that now be considered rebellion against God?  And why didn't God establish an "end-of-the-church-age' covenant -- a new set of rules/roles/commands whereby we would know how to conduct ourselves when assembled together, instead of  leaving us to come up with our own set of rules?  Maybe you don't think these questions and concerns are important, and maybe you don't see any inconsistencies or disharmony with the Bible as a whole, but I do.  If anyone can truly reconcile these things from the Bible, without the circular argument of "because it's 'the-end-of-the-church-age" I would gladly listen.

You see, I agree at core with this doctinre, but feel that it's carried to an unjustifiable extreme in its seemingly superficial attempts to distinguish their assemblies from a "local congregation", while presuming to act as  judge and jury of all churhes everywhere.  I don't think we have the right to make such judgments beyond the declaration of what the Scriptures say, which make a distintion between those congregations who do it God's way and those who do.  So, when considering these things, don't we need to take all these things into account, including the following conditions/qualifiers upon which God will base his judgments?

2Th2:10 ...BECAUSE THEY received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
1Pe 4:17  if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?  
etc.


Reformer, you gave the following passage and made this statement in one of your posts:

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Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually

They are killed in the church all of them. And as the church rejoices over their death, they ultimately come to life and leave the streets of that city where they laid, ascending to God. And Babylon comes into remembrance. The Church falls. This is the church in totality falling, because all except the two witnesses who were killed will have been maked of the beast.

Yes, I acknowledge these Scripture and God's pervasive judment agaiinst the church.  But please consider...  The 'two witnesses' actually represents the faithful church -- comprised of individuals and/or groups of individuals who may be associated with one another in fellowships/local congregations.   Once spiritually silenced, God raises them back up on their feet -- but this is not the end, for they continue giving testimony.

May point is simply that these two witnesses represent all true believers, who, if possible, are commanded to assemble together with like-minded believers  --albeit outside of the  mainstream apostate church that 'killed them', and are governed by denominational hierachies and doctrines of men, instead of by Christ and His Gospel.  It's they who are the 'whore' in the Rev 18 passage that you also gave, and whose judgment will be complete and without mercy.

So ... how many congregations will pass the test?   You say absolutely none.  I say, in that case, the 'end-of-the-church-age' camp must then include their own congregations, for I consider this to be a form of hypocrisy.   I further say ALL churches who "obey not the Gospel of Christ" will fall ,which may leave a remnant or even none; but that's not for us to judge.   And although I don't belong to a church, I also say God's judgment will first begin with "us" -- none here are excempt from God's assessment, for when all is said and done, it's boils down to the heart of each individual.

judy
'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'   Ps 119:89

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Re: The End Of The Church Age
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2005, 04:11:51 AM »
Revelation seven shows the sealing of 144K but we don't see the 144K as sealed until Rev. 14. when they are shown singing a song with Jesus.  Revelation 7 doesn't mention when the sealing ends. 

It most certainly does. It ends before the four angels are allowed to hurt the earth. But I know that there is a core group of people in the local unfaithful churches today who are never going to accept that the church can fall totally. So your position doesn't surprise me in the least. But I think it is because of a lack of deep biblical and spiritual knowledge, not because scripture doesn't support the prophecy. Revelation chapter seven says that the sealing ends before the plagues of God are poured out upon the earth to hurt it. And the plagues are poured out to hurt the earth before Christ returns. In any arithmatic that means the sealing ends before Christ returns.

Revelation 7:1-3
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads".


If we are following scripture, then Revelation chapter seven tells us that the sealing must be totally completed before these four angels are allowed to loose the plagues that will hurt the earth, sea and trees. It's very clearly written there.


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The sealing of Christians obviously ends when Christ appears the second time.

I don't know how you come to that conclusion. The scriptures tell us that God delays his judgment upon the earth until all his people are sealed. And after they are sealed, there is the opening the pit and loosing the evil spirits there as locusts that will hurt everyone who does not have the seal of God in their forehead.


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As for the church age ending, it has no end, according to the bible.
Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Raybob

This is another misapplication of scripture, just as your previous post contained scriptures out of context. If we took this to mean what you claim, the world would never end and Jesus Christ could only be glorified in the earthly church. But Christ is glorified in the invisible church, which is the only eternal church, world without end. You have to understood which church is being referred to. Because it is the true church of God's elect, not the local churches. God's talking about the church bought with a price for his own glory.

 


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