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Author Topic: Hyper-Calvinism  (Read 1529 times)

ZeroCool

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Hyper-Calvinism
« on: April 20, 2017, 08:00:38 AM »
Is Hyper-Calvinism a form of fatalism?

ZeroCool

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2017, 12:35:55 AM »

Anyone have any opinion on this?

Melanie

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2017, 01:30:03 AM »
Zerocool,
I think Hyper Calvinism (in effect) teaches that God is the actual author of sin because he ultimately controls all aspects of one's life where man is just a puppet in God's hand,or chess pieces on a board to be moved around by God. I think that really makes man responsible for nothing because ultimately God is pulling all the strings. It takes predestination to absurd and unbiblical heights by intellectualizing and over thinking the issue.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13"


I do believe that Hyper-Calvinists conclude that not only does God predestinate and move us to salvation, but also predestinate and moves the wicked to be damned so that God can glory in that. This is a half truth, which means it's a lie. It contradicts God's word I just quoted in James that not only can God Himself not be tempted to sin, he tempts or moves no man to sin. Not for His purposes or anyone else's. From what I read of hypercalvinism, it's wrong. In my opinion Hyper Calvinism is a form of fatalism in that it basically teaches that whether to sin or to righteousness, God is responsible for both in double Predestinating and pre-authoring our actions. But God only says he pre-authors our move to obedience that we would be saved, not to disobedience or sin that we would be damned.

Joe Johnson

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2017, 08:18:05 AM »
I do believe that Hyper-Calvinists conclude that not only does God predestinate and move us to salvation, but also predestinate and moves the wicked to be damned so that God can glory in that.

But that's what all you calvinists believe. It's called double predestination. So isn't there a contradiction there in your theology? On the one hand you say god moves no one to sin, and on the other you say god predestinates the wicked to damnation. You can't have it both ways.

Melanie

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 09:46:03 AM »
But that's what all you calvinists believe. It's called double predestination.

I'm not a Calvinist, nor do I believe in double predestination. I'm reformed, and I believe in God's sovereignty. If you don't know the difference, I can't help you. Maybe this Jamieson, Fausset, Brown commentary will enlighten you.

Romans 9:21
      21. Hath not the potter power over the clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour?--"The objection is founded on ignorance or misapprehension of the relation between God and His sinful creatures; supposing that He is under obligation to extend His grace to all, whereas He is under obligation to none. All are sinners, and have forfeited every claim to His mercy; it is therefore perfectly competent to God to spare one and not another, to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor. But it is to be borne in mind that Paul does not here speak of God's right over His creatures as creatures, but as sinful creatures: as he himself clearly intimates in the next verses. It is the cavil of a sinful creature against his Creator that he is answering, and he does so by showing that God is under no obligation to give His grace to any, but is as sovereign as in fashioning the clay" [HODGE]. But, Second: "There is nothing unjust in such sovereignty."

John

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2017, 04:30:22 PM »
There is Biblical Soteriology, which is the true understanding of God's salvation program and then there are perversions of it.

The Arminian perversion exchanges the sovereignty of God and transfers His power to fallen man.

The hyper-Calvinist perversion removes the responsibility of man in salvation and transfers all responsibility to God.

Arminianism makes man god and God a powerless but concerned by-stander.

Hyper-Calvinism makes man a puppet and God the author of sin.

Arminianism holds that everyone is commanded to repent and believe, therefore (using human logic and ignoring Scripture) all men must be able to repent and believe, on their own. Therefore, the decision to believe or not resides within each person, God is helpless and cannot interfere with human sovereignty (called "free will", meaning free of God acting upon men). In the Arminian world, God must love everyone, Christ died for everyone, redeemed everyone, was the propitiation for everyone, removed the sins of everyone, made everyone "qualified" to enter heaven -- if they will accept the work done by God, else that one sin (apparently unpaid by Christ in some manner) puts them into hell. Thus, it is only the sin of rejecting (the Holy Spirit) that sends anyone to hell, or so they believe.

Thus, Arminianism is a schizophrenic soteriology, the Arminian claims Christ took away the sins of everyone, then claims some will be in hell for sins not removed. They have Christ's atonement accomplishing nothing and the work of reprobate men in "accepting" Christ of their own free will, accomplishing everything via the power of man to activate the atonement. Thus, Arminianism is more than just confusion, more than just a lie, more than just not knowing what the true gospel is, it is blasphemy and a damnable heresy.

Hyper-Calvinism holds that all men cannot repent and believe apart from God, therefore (using human logic and ignoring Scripture) all men being unable are not required by God to repent and believe, God saves without evangelism. Using human logic, it would be unreasonable to ask people to accomplish a task (repent and believe) which God says they are patently unable to perform. The hyper-Calvinism fears stepping on God's sovereignty by demanding the unelected do something that God has no intention of doing (saving them). But, if God is truly sovereign (and He is), then there is nothing the preacher or evangelist can say or do that could upset or thwart God's redemptive plan anyway.

Arminianism fails because it rejects the Scripture truth that man is unable to repent and believe, that man is spiritually dead in sins. Man is a spiritual corpse, and cadavers do not repent and believe, they only rot. There is no free-will, man is not sovereign but rather enslaved to sin and in rebellion to the will of God. God is the only sovereign, He chooses and saves those He wills and those He does not save were not chosen to salvation and will not be saved. Because Arminianism rejects God as sovereign over His creation they find God's intention to NOT save everyone abhorrent and unloving. They fail to recognize that God is not required to save anyone, if God saved just one person from the penalty of their sins it would be perfect and just. Yet, He saves untold millions - and the rest remain in their sin to curse and mock Him.

Hyper-Calvinism fails because it assumes that God is unable to do two things: Regenerate (make spiritually alive) and bring the elect together to hear the evangelist's salvation message. The Hyper-Calvinist is making assumptions as if they knew the mind of God, which they do not. True enough, man does not have the ability to believe due to his spiritual depravity, but still God demands everyone to repent and to believe. It is a matter of reality, we are beings created in God's image, and such we are all called to believe what is true. God is not wrong to demand His creation see the right and do it. That they don't is judgement against them.

john
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yaboo

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 06:56:53 AM »
Only Melanie actually answered the question, which if you all forgot was, "is Hyper-Calvinism a form of fatalism?"   I would say, Yes, it is.Because it leaves people with the impression that they can't do anything to change anything in their lives.

ZeroCool

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 02:10:09 AM »
Hyper-Calvinism fails because it assumes that God is unable to do two things: Regenerate (make spiritually alive) and bring the elect together to hear the evangelist's salvation message. The Hyper-Calvinist is making assumptions as if they knew the mind of God, which they do not. True enough, man does not have the ability to believe due to his spiritual depravity, but still God demands everyone to repent and to believe.

Thank you all for your comments, I really do appreciate them. John, so in your opinion does all that mean that Hyper-Calvinism actually is a form of fatalism, or simply the doctrine that everything that happens is predetermined?

Diane Moody

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2017, 11:19:59 AM »

John

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 11:11:48 PM »
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...so in your opinion does all that mean that Hyper-Calvinism actually is a form of fatalism, or simply the doctrine that everything that happens is predetermined

Fatalism, at its most basic meaning is the belief that all events are predetermined and unchangeable. This could in its general sense be applied to God's predetermined ordering of the universe. There is nothing in yourself that can change the future outcome that God has ordained.

But fatalism carries the secular notion that, like determinism, the present is only an consequential cascade of prior event, which are not determined to any particular or needful end (not to glorify God) but are ordered by impersonal laws that people assigned to "Nature" or some other unknowable entity or thing, which has no goal or purpose.

So, Fatalism in that sense cannot be applied to God, as He has ordered all events for His glory, and out of history to save a people for Himself. True, events are pre-established before time and remain unchangeable, and each event necessarily must lead in a cause-effect relation to the next event, to include man's thoughts and actions, to included man's prayers and supplications. So that, en-total God orchestrates the universe to bring forth His predetermined and immutable plan. That isn't fatalism, it's a Decreed Order.

Hyper-Calvinism has taken the Decreed Order ordained by God and decided that what cannot be changed is consequently futile for anyone to attempt to change. Why waste effort to convert the lost when their destiny is certain and sealed by God? If they are to be saved, God will save, if lost, they will remain lost. This isn't fatalism either. But it is illogical to hold that events cannot be changed when God specifically and pointedly instructs His people to go into the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Is God requesting purposeless evangelistic toil for the sake of passing the time?

Obviously not! And obviously the Hyper-Calvinist has it wrong. Evangelism isn't something that exists apart from the Divine Decree. It isn't something that is applied against or in an external fashion to an immutable and unchangeable Plan, as if it were somehow a parallel and separate action that is outside God's purview.

Evangelism is entwined with all the other cause and effect relations built into the Divine Plan from eternity past. It is not purposeless to preach the gospel to the reprobate, as this is the "means" that God has ordained in His economy to effect salvation. This means man is responsible to preach and the reprobate are responsible to hear and believe (even if spiritually they cannot). To "not" evangelize the lost because it would frustrate God's sovereignty, which Hyper-Calvinism is said to hold, would be equal folly. How does the creature frustrate the immutable plan of God? It's not possible.

So, while Hyper-Calvinism falls apart upon closer scrutiny, the same can be said for Arminianism. If the choice in salvation belongs solely to the person, and God's plan is immutable, then what choice is left for God? The Arminian would say God "saw" the future choice to believe and then God chose those who choose Him!?  Makes no sense if choice has any meaning.

The Arminian has God's immutable decree on the one hand AND man's sovereign, free-will, unencumbered choice on the other. Like the Hyper-Calvinist they have created a fantasy land where God's decrees don't apply - at least not to people. Or to say it differently, God's created domain is partitioned - He has total control over every aspect of His domain - except for the will of fallen men, to which He is powerless.

Fatalism doesn't apply to the Arminian position as they have carved out a separate universe where God is not allowed entry. The Hyper-Calvinism, to some degree, has limited God's access to man's actions, specifically the preachers, who must by their thought process have become useless third-wheels that aren't included as God is too powerful to need their input.

Arminianism has reduced God to a likeness in our image - powerless to effect change. Hyper-Calvinism has made God entirely other - with no need for man's work to sow and water the field. The Arminian has assigned the sowing, watering, and sprouting of the plant to the choice of the plant - regardless whether the soil is prepared (by God) beforehand. The plant to them is all powerful. The Hyper-Calvinist has God preparing the soil, the seeds scattered about by providence, and the watering by the hand-of-God via circumstances - with the farmers (elect) only tending the plants that sprout forth (lest they tend to seeds that are ordained not to spout).

Calvinism isn't fatalism, and only has a passing commonality with the truth that all events are foreordained and unchangeable. It gives Person-hood to the fatalists undirected cause-effect relationship. The Fatalist would say concerning a looming catastrophe, "a typhoon is coming and by all accounts should kill 300,000 people tomorrow - but why flee the storm, for you will die no matter if you flee or stay. For there is no escaping your fate".  The Christian says, "God has ordained the typhoon but you have a God-given responsibility to seek the greatest good of others - so rescue as many as you can and flee".  Fatalism leads to apathy. Christianity leads to empathy.

john



Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Dan

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2017, 12:54:21 AM »
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...so in your opinion does all that mean that Hyper-Calvinism actually is a form of fatalism, or simply the doctrine that everything that happens is predetermined

Fatalism, at its most basic meaning is the belief that all events are predetermined and unchangeable.


That's not fatalism, that's your twisting of the definition of fatalism. Fatalism is the belief that all events are predetermined and unchangeable so that you can do nothing to change your fate. And that is exactly what Calvinism teaches as they sit in their Ivory Towers and look down their noses on everyone who is not a Calvinist and treat evangelism as if it were the plague.  Just google Calvinism and evangelism and you'll read dozens of articles about the lack of evangelism by Calvinists, a lot of it by Calvinists themselves.

"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." II Timothy 4:5

I have yet to see a Calvinist go out and preach the gospel to anyone, they just write books and sell CDs talking about the finer points of dead men like Jerome Zanchius, John Calvin or John Knox. Where is the evangelism, where is the love, where is the concern for anyone besides those in its own little "dead Authors Club?"


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This could in its general sense be applied to God's predetermined ordering of the universe. There is nothing in yourself that can change the future outcome that God has ordained.


There is Christ in ourselves and that changes things through prayer. Your hyper Calvinism is fatalism personified.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

Prayer changes things, Calvinism says why bother, because it is a doctrine of fatalism.
 
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Fatalism leads to apathy. Christianity leads to empathy.

john

And that's exactly what Calvinism is, fatalism, because it more than any other group doesn't evangelize, but sits in its ivory tower proclaiming all is predestinated, man can do nothing. The fact is, if man could do nothing, God wouldn't command him to do something..

John

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 11:42:35 PM »
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Me: Fatalism, at its most basic meaning is the belief that all events are predetermined and unchangeable.
Dan: That's not fatalism, .... Fatalism is the belief that all events are predetermined and unchangeable so that you can do nothing to change your fate.

So, your definition is identical to mine (not mine - the dictionaries) yet mine is a "twisted definition". Good job. You're off to a great start.

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And that is exactly what Calvinism teaches as they sit in their Ivory Towers and look down their noses on everyone who is not a Calvinist and treat evangelism as if it were the plague.

Hmmm, lot's of emotion dripping with bile ... have any facts to support your claim? I know plenty of "Calvinists" and none fit your jaded description.

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Just google Calvinism and evangelism and you'll read dozens of articles about the lack of evangelism by Calvinists, a lot of it by Calvinists themselves.

You'll also read articles on how Calvinism spurs folks to evangelize. But regardless of Google results - Calvinism or Sovereign Grace Theology IS the truth of the gospel message. It is how God's salvation program operates. Granted unregenerate people hate God's truth by whatever name it is called - hence Google is not going to speak highly of election, predestination, regeneration, conversion, depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, or the final glorification of God's people. As those concepts are the heart of God's salvation plan - which the world (and Satan) always seeks to silence or malign.

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I have yet to see a Calvinist go out and preach the gospel to anyone, they just write books and sell CDs talking about the finer points of dead men like Jerome Zanchius, John Calvin or John Knox.

There are perhaps fifty different denominations within miles of where I've lived in the last forty years. I've only had 2 Arminian Baptist church visits, many Mormons and JW, and perhaps 3 Assembly of God or Charismatic church visits. These each hold to a false salvation gospel - so what is the point? Is it gain to have evangelism from messengers of Satan?

But really, you have no idea who witnesses to whom in private. Some apostate churches have alter calls, "Decision Rooms" - there are street corner preachers shouting at people - these all are false gospels that serve only to ensnare the lost. Again, you have no knowledge of who is providing true witness. Do you know who is witnessing to a co-worker at lunch, or on a plane flight. No you don't. You are judging awry based on your personal dislike (read hate) for Calvinist theology.

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Where is the evangelism, where is the love..."

Calvinists love by witnessing to the truth. Even if you aren't there to see or hear it (actually, you are reading it right now). Arminians show "love" by telling a fairy tale story to deceive the lost into thinking they are saved. Which is more loving? Giving the truth or a lie? Having someone reject or accept the truth as God ordained from the foundation of the world - or to have someone accept a tasty sweet lie that tickles the ears (and then they die in their sins)?

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...where is the concern for anyone besides those in its own little "dead Authors Club?

A great many of those "dead authors" you show disdain for wrote the truth, far more deeply and richly than today's living authors. And as such they continue to be profitable for witnessing and training in righteousness. Yes, you can go down to the local Christian Book Store and get an armload of worthless books written by modern authors who haven't a Biblical clue and whose works deceive their readers to include the most blatant lies of Arminianism. You decide which is better.

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There is nothing in yourself that can change the future outcome that God has ordained.

There is Christ in ourselves and that changes things through prayer. Your hyper Calvinism is fatalism personified.

Really? I said there is "nothing in yourself that can change the future outcome that God has ordained" and you reply that prayer changes things??  How?

Do you think that prayer alters God's predetermined plan? It doesn't. You should go back and read again what I wrote (or better read what God wrote in the Bible), as you missed the point. Prayer is not outside or apart of God's salvation plan - it is just as much part of His plan as all the other ordered and ordained pieces that God uses as means. There is nothing we do that is autonomous or freely determined - everything is ordained and orchestrated for God's use - even the prayer of a righteous person or the rebellion of the wicked. It's all in the mix.

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Prayer changes things, Calvinism says why bother, because it is a doctrine of fatalism.

Ah, more groundless accusations against God's Salvation Plan. I'm dealing in Biblical truth and you're lashing out with anger and emotion. But even so, you'll be hard pressed to find Calvinists (or whatever people choose to call themselves) saying that prayer is useless and "why bother". We pray because it is our communication with God. We ask for things amiss, but God operate according to His will - not ours. When our will coincides with His will - which is the ideal - then our prayers are answered. Prayer is not to conform God to our will - but to conform our will to His. You should seek to understand this.

Again, fatalism is not Calvinism - because as the Bible teaches all events are under God's control and lead to the exact outcome God predetermined before the world began. This excludes nothing - there is no "thing" that happens apart from that Divine Plan - nothing.

Fatalism teaches that there is no plan - things are mere causalities that cannot be escaped. Avoiding a bad fate is the goal of many eastern religions, a works gospel. But God takes the weak, the despised, the outcast sinner and uses those to bring forth His Divine Plan. Fatalism is not part of true Christianity and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who teaches such an idea (aside from your ignorant assertions, of course).


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And that's exactly what Calvinism is, fatalism, because it more than any other group doesn't evangelize, but sits in its ivory tower proclaiming all is predestinated, man can do nothing.

You won't find a Calvinist or Sovereign Grace evangelist/preacher who agrees with you. The Bible doesn't teach that "man can do nothing" and neither do true Christians. Anger and ignorance are your strong suit but they're a bad mix. You need to educate yourself.

God uses means to accomplish His salvation. This is the teaching of the Bible, and so it is the teaching of Calvinists (or whatever you call yourself - Christians). Man's preaching, teaching, and gospel spreading to all creation is how God warns, admonishes, and instructs the lost, educates the regenerated, and equips the saints.  No Christian who understand salvation would say "man can do nothing". All that we do is used by God - as predetermined in the council of His will - to bring about His desired goal. We preach to the lost and those that God has prepared the heart to receive - will respond (and no others).

Now an Arminian who holds to free-will and abhors the doctrine of grace taught by God in the Bible, well sure they'll mock the truth and erect Straw-men to knock down, as if they have accomplished something. But putting that foolishness aside, the true Christian will always evangelize their neighbor, co-worker, strangers - whomever they meet. I do it all the time - as God brings people into contact. The weaker brother or sister may be afraid to contend with some angry rebuffs - but we have not suffered to the point of blood. It is what real Christians do - especially as they learn and mature in the faith.

You seem to mock God's predestination of His elect - perhaps you'd like to explain what the Bible says about predestination?


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The fact is, if man could do nothing, God wouldn't command him to do something..

Exactly!  Which is why most all true Christians seek the lost. Yet, there are many, non-Christians sitting in churches everywhere who don't evangelize the lost - because they are lost themselves! You used a lot of straw to support your argument - a lot of hot air and unfounded accusations - but still true Christians are in the world speaking softly to the lost about what Christ has done for them. They may not fit your definition of evangelist, but though they are a meek minority, they are everywhere working to spread the true gospel.

You should be aware that if you move in the circle of the majority of Christians today you are dealing with people who don't understand God's salvation program, don't understand God's election, don't like predestination and reject it ... but do approve of free-will doctrines that inflate the ego. They like the idea of a 'gentleman' God who won't violate their supposed sovereign will (their sovereign pride).

Yes, a carnal gospel the lost can approve and applaud, even proselytize the lost into their error. But the truth is anathema (just suitable for angry mocking and throwing straw around). Despite the emotional grandstanding, the T.V. preachers, and cults running about giving false witness - there continues a tiny group of true Christians that still witness to the truth. I know quite a few of them.

john
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Dan

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 01:16:58 AM »
There are perhaps fifty different denominations within miles of where I've lived in the last forty years. I've only had 2 Arminian Baptist church visits, many Mormons and JW, and perhaps 3 Assembly of God or Charismatic church visits. These each hold to a false salvation gospel - so what is the point?

But no Calvinists huh? I think you've made my point. Calvinists wouldn't lift a hand to help anyone if they had four hands to spare. They are like the parable of the good Samaritan, only they are the bad Samaritans who walked on by. And most people know it. The point is, Hyper-Calvinism, which is nothing but strong Calvinism, is fatalism. As such, they don't feel the need to preach Christ to anyone, and discuss the finer points only among themselves. They sell CDs for themselves. They sell Christ to themselves. They author books about themselves, quoting themselves. They sit in their Ivory Towers with their minds on dead authors and sayng to hell with everyone else, I'm going to Heaven and only those who join my Calvinists Club can come.


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But really, you have no idea who witnesses to whom in private.

Who witnesses in private? Did the apostle Paul witness in Private? Did Christ? Calvinists don't witness in private, that's your excuse. Calvinists witness to themselves and no one else. God sees what you try to hide in darkness, which is a lack of evangelism. You can't hide that from God.

Matthew 10:26
"Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops".


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there are street corner preachers shouting at people

I would give these street corner preachers a better chance of getting into heaven than you Hyper -Calvinists who sit at home counting their coins and telling us Calvin knows best.

ZeroCool

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 02:01:04 AM »
Dan, Tony Warren is a Calvinist, and I've never seen or read anyone evangelize more than he does. So there is an example right here that shows that you are wrong. You should read his article, "what must I do to be saved?" It is a great example of the Calvinist gospel message and is very effective.

Fred

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Re: Hyper-Calvinism
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 03:03:32 AM »
Excellent call Dan. Hyper-Calvinism and double predestinaton are two sides of the same coin. There is a contradiction in the theology of Hyper-Calvinism. They claim God moves no one to sin, but then they claim God predestinates the wicked to sin leading to their damnation. Talk about faulty logic?  :Say_what: You can't have it both ways.

 


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