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Author Topic: Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel  (Read 295 times)

Fred

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Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel
« on: April 14, 2017, 12:55:53 PM »
That's not the case since Israel ceased being the church over 2000 years ago.

Israel was never the church, and the church is not Israel.


Erik Diamond

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Re: Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2017, 02:07:57 PM »
Quote from: Fred
Israel was never the church, and the church is not Israel.

We have provided you with TONS of Scripture here and on other threads many times in the past that has refuted your position on the subject about the relationship between Israel and Church when you have RARELY actually defend yourself WITH Scripture.

Now do you HAVE a Scripture support where God clearly has declared that Church can not be Israel (IN CHRIST) despite what HE HIMSELF declared through His Apostles: Romans 10:12, Matthew 1:21, Romans 11:17, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-20, Ephesians 3:6-8, 1st Corinthians 12:13, Romans 11:24-26, etc. etc.  Study those Scripture carefully and receive them!

Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

David Knoles

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Re: Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 05:29:02 AM »
I would also have to agree with Fred that there is a separation of the church and Israel. There isn't one single scripture where God ever called Israel the church, or the church Israel.

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2017, 07:10:39 AM »
>>>
That's not the case since Israel ceased being the church over 2000 years ago.

Israel was never the church...
<<<

I must say that your ideas are contrary to what the "unadulterated" word of God declares. I'm sure many churches teach that, but the fact is, Israel "was" in fact the church or congregation of God in the Old Covenant or Testament, but has since lost that designation with their rejection of Christ in the New Covenant economy. You say Israel was never the church, as compared with God's word, which says they were.

Acts 7:37-38
  • "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
  • This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

Since God declares in this passage that the children of Israel were actually the church in the wilderness, your private opinions against this is once again proved both unbiblical and incorrect. The word church [ekklesia], simply means God's assembly, or those "called out" as His congregation. If God's word calls the children of Israel the church in the wilderness, then to Bible believing Christians, that's what it was. I realize that dispensationalism likes to keep a separation between Israel and the church, but in reality Israel has always been God's church, and always will be.


Quote
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..and the church is not Israel.
<<<

The New Covenant church may not be the Israel of man, but it most certainly is the Israel of God. Remember, He is not a Jew that is one outwardly in the flesh (or by heritage), but according to God's word he is a Jew that is one inwardly, in the spirit, whose praise is not of men, but of God (Romans 2:28-29). i.e., the true Jews are the true Israel of God, not those in the flesh, but in the Spirit of Christ. Why this is so hard for so many to comprehend is astonishing.

Ephesians 2:11-20
  • ""Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
  • That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the Covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
  • But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  • For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
  • Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[/l]
  • And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
  • And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
  • For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
  • Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
  • And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"

When we were formerly Gentiles with respect to circumcision, called the uncircumcision and being foreigners or aliens (non-citizens) of Israel, now we are brought to Israel in Christ Jesus. God declares that we are now no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God. How much clearer can it get?

Moreover, do you not know that the New Testaent (the New Covenant) is with Israel? If that is true, then as is so well illustrated in the above verses by God, the New Covenant church must of necessity be Israel. The word of God is unambiguous about these basic truths.

Hebrews 8:6-8
  • "But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better Covenant, which was established upon better promises.
  • For if that FIRST Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
  • For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:"

Who is the New covenant/Testament with Fred? Again, clearly the New covenant church is Israel. It is all those who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of national origin, Jew or Gentile, they are made fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, and partakers of the same promises of God to them. Indeed, Israel ultimately is Christ Jesus (Hosea 11:1,  Matthew 2:15), and so all those in Him would have to be the body of Israel. All those of Israel (the nation) are not Israel, because only those in Christ Jesus (Romans 9:6-8) are truly the Israel of God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2017, 07:43:34 AM »
>>>
I would also have to agree with Fred that there is a separation of the church and Israel.
<<<

Of course you would David, you both hold to the same inconsistent roots of Chiliasm doctrines that are unsound and have been demonstrated to be unbiblical and contrary to Christ's teachings. I've already shown that there is no separation between the Jews and the Gentile, the New Covenant with Israel and the Greek, the holy nation of God and the body of Christ, over and over again. As I told you before, it's up to the Word and Spirit of God to convince people of His truth, not I.

John 16:13
  • "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

The fact is, the Spirit reveals truth through he word. The word (quoted word for word) is not y word, I am not speaking of myself any new or unorthodox or independent revelation that is different from what Scripture says, I'm bearing witness to it. Righteousness is by the Spirit believing what is written. i.e.,  the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth (Ephesians 5:9). If that is the case, then why do you not accept that the church was in the wilderness with Moses long before the time of the cross? What fruit and what spirit teaches against what God says?


Quote
>>>
There isn't one single scripture where God ever called Israel the church, or the church Israel.
<<<

I've already given Scriptures, see my other posts.

Romans 11:17
  • "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

What does the Olive Tree represent and what are the branches of the wild olive tree that is "grafted in" among the Olive tree? Can you "honestly" answer that, since I've asked you many times and yo have refused to answer. Is your failure to communicate related to the fact that the Olive Tree Represents Covenanted Israel, and the branches grafted in represent the Gentiles, and they are grafted into Israel?  Need  say more?

I have given scriptures today, as well as many other times to you, but apparently some are unable to receive the truth.  Nevertheless, Christianity is a walk according to God's rule, according to His law, according to His word, not man's church traditions or deceitful doctrines.

Galatians 6:13-16
  • "For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
  • But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
  • For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
  • And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

This Israel of God is not after the flesh, among whom those teachers wanted to enroll them in their Old Covenant practice of circumcisions, but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:9,29) all those upon whom God would have mercy are the Israel of God. This peace, this mercy, this Israel, whose praise is from God and not from men (Romans 2:29), in Christ Israel, and not Israel in the cutting of the flesh. That never made anyone truly Israel, just as shedding the blood of Lambs never made anyone clean. It merely prefigured He who would do those things. The Israel of the New Testament or more accurately put, the New Covenant Israel, whom God has addressed and defined as the New Testament church again and again.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

George

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Re: Was Israel the Church and is the Church Israel
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2017, 05:00:30 PM »
Tony, Romans says we are Jews, it doesn't say that we are thee Jews.

 


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