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Author Topic: Gun Toting Ministers?  (Read 3059 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2017, 12:29:37 AM »
Quote from: Peter
Luke 22:36
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". Why is Christ telling his Disciples to sell their coats to but a sword? That seems very counter productive to his other teachings. I see the sword back then as equivalent to today's gun. If this is correct, what is the message here if not sell your clothing to buy a gun?


I believe that Tony Warren explained it earlier on this thread that you should check it out. 

Cheers


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Sojourner

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2017, 05:31:08 AM »
That's easy!


That's ridiculous interpretation George. Whatever reason that Christ had for instructing his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords, it certainly was not to instruct them in violence against, or killing of their enemies. What Christ have you been reading about because it certainly is not the Christ that I have read in scripture. Use scripture as your guide and authority  rather than politicians. First off, when Peter actually used a sword that he was carrying in a defensive manner, Christ not only very sternly scolded and rebuked him, he plainly told him to put the sword away and that those who live by the sword would die by it. How plain is that?  He also healed the damage that had been done by Peter’s sin of using the sword to defend him.

Matthew 26:50-52
"And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword".

So whatever the reason for Christ saying buy a sword (and I don't know the reason), it was not to promote his disciples to practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Christ never taught that, he taught against that and doing so would make him contradictory.

Matthew 5:38-39
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also".

He didn't say you should defend yourself and resist evil taking an eye for an eye, he said just the opposite. A teaching that the radicals would like you to completely ignore as if it's not even in the bible. Even when Christ was put on trial, He told Pilate that since His kingdom was not of this world, His followers would not fight to defend him.

John 18:36
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

We are also of Christ's kingdom, and we don't react as the world reacts with violence and vengeance, demanding an eye for an eye. Obviously, if Christ had wanted us or his Apostles to use the swords or guns to defend themselves against enemies of God he would not have said all these things or told us not to resist evil. That's the job of governments, not Christians. Christ clearly taught, and his Apostles knew after learning from the rebuke of Peter, that he did not want them to use their swords for violence.

George

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2017, 02:18:18 AM »
Sojourner, guns don't kill, people kill. Ban people, not guns.


Peter

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2017, 02:41:20 AM »
I believe that Tony Warren explained it earlier on this thread that you should check it out. 

Cheers


Thanks Erik, Yes I read that, but was hoping Tony or someone could elaborate on it so I understand a little more and it sinks in. Like should police or soldiers.

Sojourner

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2017, 07:13:27 AM »
Guns in the governments hands, police or soldiers is totally different from God blessing gun toting ministers who want to arm their flock. These are two entirely different issues. Church vs. State. I think we all agree God ordained governments to rule over us. Or most all I should say, maybe not John or Fred.

Tony Warren

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2017, 05:23:20 AM »
>>>
To all concerned, first of all I think this idea of turning the church into an armed camp is insane with a capital I.
<<<

Thank God for sensible and conscientious Christians who know the difference between the way of the flesh, and the way of the Spirit. Because when we start to think just like the world, succumbing to the lusts or desires of the flesh, are we not yet carnal? I think that you are absolutely correct, we are under the government agencies "appointed by God" to wield the sword to physically protect us against the wicked. We most certainly don't turn God's house of prayer into an armed camp simply because we have succumbed to unwarranted and unchristian fear of someone coming into the church to cause death (Matthew 10:28). What kind of witness to Christianity is that? That is the epitome of Pharisaical hypocrisy, the epitome of living in fear (1st John 4:18), the epitome of trusting in ourselves rather than God for our lives and peace of mind.

Psalms 44:5-6
  • "Through thee will we push down our enemies: through thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.
  • For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me."

Fear causes anxiousness, anguish and has torment, but perfect love of Christ in us casts out fear. If we've made our calling and election sure, this type of dread should not exist to the point of turning God's house into an armory. There are two types of fear. The righteous and reverential fear of God that the Spirit brings, and then there is the unrighteous fear that the Devil brings to those who live for this life  because they are yet carnal. The fear that in their delusion, they actually believe with all their heart that they need guns in God's house for their safety. There is no doubt in my mind that this is a type of "spiritual insanity" when Christians are not thinking with sober or sound minds. This is the type of reaction that is usually seen in the spirit of the unsaved. A spiritual insanity that was "signified" when Christ healed the mentally ill man in the tombs. In the carnal mind is where mistrust, fear and sin starts, and the antagonist and adversary there is that spirit Satan. He loves to see professing Christians react with a spiritual insanity where they have a spirit just like the world (James 4:4-5), without the mind of Christ, but unsound and that lusteth to envy. When I hear of Ministers calling for guns in church and to have their members armed, I think of the spiritual insanity of the world.

Luke 8:35-36
  • "Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
  • They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed."

This portrait by Christ of insanity was illustrating that this man was unsaved, and then restored or made whole by the healing of Christ. Spiritual insanity is everywhere, and unfortunately that means even in the church. Anyone who thinks that this carnal "mentality" of arming the church members has nothing to do with arrogance, vanity and ungodly fear, is kidding (lying to) themselves. Whether these professing Christians are saved or not, that's God's business, not mine. But I do know that they are thinking carnally, with a spirit that lusts to envy just like the world, when they should be thinking as one "set apart" from the world.


Quote
>>>
I do have a question about the meaning of a particular verse I can't figure out. It's really difficult to understand.
<<<

It's difficult because it really is a spiritual portrait or picture of God's glorious and magnificent salvation program, and really has nothing to do with the well oiled myth that God is instructing His Disciples to arm themselves for physical battle, defense, protection or to resist evil by use of the sword. It cryptically has to do with God's salvation program and how Christ has to fulfill Scripture so that it "fits perfectly" according to what was written. Christ is using this imagery of food, money and sword to illustrate a spiritual truth about the gospel just as He ha done all throughout his ministry. i.e., sheep, bread, water, swords, ablutions, wolves, shoes, scorpions, etc..


(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)

The most basic fundamental flaw in most Christian's hermeneutics is in not understanding how God uses people or items as "types" which are signifying something far more important than the literal person, place or thing that God uses to illustrate the truth. Like when He speaks in future terms of some nation like Babylon, or of a plow, a ruler, a sword, a animal, a Temple, etc. Scripture interprets Scripture, so we have to consider the whole context, content and what God "actually" meant by it, rather than how we privately interpret it today. Like when the Scriptures declared the prophesy that Elijah must come first before Christ, it was actually a reference to John the Baptist who cam in the Spirit and Power of Elijah--and so on and so forth. In other words, let God define His own terms. Whether that is a man, fig tree, stones, wolves, serpents, sword, bread or gold. We ask, what is God addressing in this context and how is it gospel related, is it a historical parable, what is the spiritual signification of it, etc., etc.

Luke 22:35-38
  • "and he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
  • Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
  • For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
  • And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

The number two in Scripture illustrates the witness of truth (Numbers 35:30; John 8:17; Mark 6:7; Hebrews 6:18; Revelation 11:3) and the sword the word of God. The whole content of the passage, in context and in harmony with the rest of the Bible, will illustrate what Christ is talking about. It's about how when Christ sent them out as His two witnesses (two by two) with nothing, they lacked nothing even as they were sent as lambs among wolves (Matt. 10:9-16). In other words, they had no money, script or sword and yet they were Spiritually rich, Spiritually fed and Spiritually secure. That serpent Satan had no power over them. They came back to Christ declaring that the spirits and all power of the enemy was in subjection (Luke 10:17-20) to them. That's an important part of the equation. That's how Christ sent them out. But now Christ is illustrating that the tables are turned (so to speak). Something has changed. What could that mean and what has happened now.? Well, what has happened is that now Christ must go to the cross as it is the hour of darkness when His ministry on earth has been accomplished and He had to become the suffering Servant punished by God (Isaiah 53:10-11) on our behalf. In this hour of darkness Christ must stand alone, abandoned by all men where they "all" will "now" trust in their own sword and riches and script (a script is a food carrier) for their security. The point is, without Christ man is on his own. This is Satan's hour where Christ's people have "all" abandoning Him in His hour of suffering and death. Even Peter would deny Christ three times, just as was prophesied by the Lord, because he "HAD TO" go to the cross alone, without friends. He had to be forsaken by all, and this is signified by them "now" taking up their own sword, script and purse. They all had forsaken Him, according to what was written. There was none that stood with Him in the power of the Lord.

Mt 26:55-56
  • "In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
  • But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled."

 Overcome with carnal fear, they all abandoned Christ where no one stood with Him in these things. i.e., with Christ they had nothing and yet lacked nothing, and now without Christ they were back to needing purse, script and sword. No one stood with Him so that it could go as it was written. The picture here is that mankind without Christ is trusting in their own sword, food and money and it is a "type" illustrating that not one man stood with Christ. They didn't trust in Christ, they trusted in their own bread (script), they abandoned His riches for their own (purse), and they forsook the Word of God to live by their own sword. Where they didn't have these things before and yet lacked nothing, in this hour of darkness they now had to trust in their own Bread, Purse and Sword. They were without God, as scattered sheep without a Shepherd.

Mark 14:27
  • "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered."

Just as Christ uses sword and script, He here uses shepherd and sheep. This is cryptic imagery revealing they "all" abandoned him and were without Christ in the world as He had to go away in death so that when He came again they might live by His resurrection. Until Christ was resurrected bringing peace between God and man, there was the sword and warfare. With Christ having to go away, they had no power to prevail right up until their regeneration (from this death) to life at Pentecost, they were as scattered sheep without a Shepherd, as they all left Him alone.

John 16:7
  • "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

A comforter or an intercessor for what? To bring them back, to restore Israel, to assure them as a spiritual advocate illustrating their warfare was over wherein Christ Jesus they as the type need neither Purse, Script or Sword. They no longer had to live by the sword, but by the sword of the Spirit, the word of the living God. They have no need to fear hunger, for their script is filled. They no lover needed to fear poverty for they are blessed with immeasurable riches. They no longer need to fear the sword of their enemies, as now (as with the 70) they are sent out as two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-4) with power and a spiritual sword and who lack nothing. They are as the Spiritual City of Jerusalem comforted, the Spiritual Temple of God restorted. Whereas they abandoned Christ selling their covering to buy a sword, now they are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, now they have the script full of living bread, and now they wield the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

So this verse really has nothing whatsoever to do with God commanding His disciples that since He was now going to the cross they should take up physical swords for protection. That is a carnal interpretation, not a Biblical one. Actually, that's absurd if you really bother to think about it. That would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It was illustrating that without Christ, they would have to trust in the flesh, but with His sending the comforter, that warfare with God, and their seeking their own bread would all cease. Again, in cryptic terms, He was telling them that they had to fast without Him (He is the true bread) as He goes away, but soon their script would be filled with bread wherein they lacked nothing.

Mark 2:19-20
  • "And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
  • But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days."

This is the time when He was taken away that they are without Christ and needed their own script, wherein before they needed no Purse, Script or sword. Now when the bridegroom was taken away from them (as He prophesied), they were without the bread of life and in a fast. When Christ rose again, the true illustration of the Lord's Chosen Fast is made known in the Revelation that the true chosen fast of the Lord is in Christ Jesus, not in physically denying yourself food. And the result is that they become two witnesses who truly need no purse, Script or sword.

Isaiah 58:6-7
  • "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
  • Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?"

Not a fleshly or carnal fast, but a spiritual fast in the Lord. This is the chosen fast. A fast fulfilled in Christ Jesus where as two witnesses who received power from on high at Pentecost, feed the hungry, clothe the naked and give our riches to the spiritually poor.

Acts 1:8
  • "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

We should all consider that any understanding of the verses about swords construed to be Christ saying before they lacked nothing, but now instructing that they need physical swords, has Christ commanding, "Before you went out by two and lacked nothing, now pick up the gun (sword) and take up your money and get your own food that you lack nothing." How does that make any logical sense? That is antithetical to everything Christ stood for, and what He "stands" for. That was the whole point of His ministry, that we don't trust in these things, that we turn the other cheek, that we not give an eye for an eye, that we not resist evil, that we don't live by the sword, that we go forth as humble sheep among ravening wolves, that we be harmless as doves, and on and on and on. His point is, they lacked nothing while He was there, but a little while he will be gone where they had to use their own purse, script, and Sword, but a little while again and their warfare would be ended and they would be comforted, and they shall again lack nothing because of the power of His cross. He went to that cross defenseless with our sins and all against Him, but afterward, by His work there, we all (the election) shall forever never sin and lack neither sword, purse or script. This is indeed what was signified in His sending the 70 out two by two with nothing. That the Lord provides bread, treasure and security, script purse and sword, not the world.

2nd Corinthians 10:3-5
  • "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
  • (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
  • Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

The world's weapons are of the flesh or carnal, but our sword is of the Spirit. Just because a myriad of professing Christians may not understand these deeper spiritual truths, doesn't mean that they are not true. Mankind needs to pull back on his arrogance and self-righteous assurances of the Godliness of trusting in his sword, gun or mamon.  ...it ain't necessarily so.

As concerning your other inquiry, just because I am reluctant to discuss scriptural passages with those who take an knee-jerk, emotional or political (rather than Biblical), adversarial and argumentative posting stance, doesn't mean I can't answer the questions. But I'm not going to dabble in the futility or uselessness of bickering with those who will not listen. There's a time to debate, and a time not to bicker.

Proverbs 17:27-28
  • "He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.
  • Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."

I've been studying these scriptures a long time and I don't say things that I cannot back up with scripture. When I say something, it's usually not a personal opinion (as in my humanistic reasoning, I would probably trust the gun also), it's because I have studied the issue and have come to the reluctant conclusion that it is not soundly based on scripture. I find this position of conservatives about guns to be based on man's humanistic reasoning, desires and the emotional (even self-righteous) and humanistic response to man's heinous sins. Many may certainly disagree with that, but I think it's pretty clear that it's an emotional reaction based in inherent anger and fear, rather than one carefully and Biblically thought out.

As for Old testament passages that were often brought up, they speak of the staff and Rod. Does our Pastors have one? It speaks of not mixing seeds in a field. Do we literally do that today? Are we going to Jerusalem three times a year, do we literally do that today? If your eye offends you, do you cut it out? Do we pick up serpents? Do we have any such delusion that if someone dropped poison in our Kool-Aid that we would not die like everyone else? Do we worship on the 7th day sabbath or worry about different types of threads in a garment? I think not! Because we understand that when God is using these terms He is not declaring that we do these things today, but that they were types and portraits or spiritual pictures illustrating something far more important than what type threads we weave, or whether we plow with certain types of animals together. Just as we are not a literal stone in a physical Temple building, and we don't literally lay hands on the sick and they miraculously recover, nor say to a mountain, be cast into the sea and it would slide right in. Mountains represent kingdoms. It's a matter of knowing what God is talking about.

The fact is, Christians make a conscious decision to choose to trust in guns, despite the fact that when Peter took up the sword Jesus said (and rather clearly) "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." That wasn't just for Peter because Christ was going to the cross (as some suppose), it was an edict and declaration for all of us. Christ said he that lives by the sword will die by it, not if Peter alone lives by the sword he will die by it.

But I'm getting long-winded again. So I'll repeat as I have always said. Whoever wants to go buy a gun and wait for someone to break in their house so they can dispatch them to meet God, they can do whatever they want. It's a free country and it's their prerogative. But as for me and my house, we will trust in the Lord, knowing that our security is in Him And our sword is His quickened word. And our purse is in the gold that was hidden in a field where all was sold to obtain it. Our script is full of the Hidden Manna, the living bread from heaven. So then, truly, truly, we lack nothing. God is sovereign and we trust in Him that we will not die amiss, or because He accidentally took His eyes off us for a second. That's not My God.

Daniel 3:17
  • "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up."

Now that's Christian faith! God is indeed able to deliver his servants from a fiery furnace, and He is indeed able to deliver Christians from a thief, burglar or murderer. But if not, then it is was CLEARLY not His will that we live one more day on this earth. We should not be in the mindset that God watches over the sparrows in the air but leaves "His People" to fend for themselves and/or to die when it wasn't their time? Not so, My God is a sovereign God, much different from the gods that many professing Christians worship today. He is a autonomous, self-determining, sovereign God where not one single hair of our head turns grey or perishes without His say so. Conservative and Evangelical theology notwithstanding. Sorry, I don't follow the party line, traditions of men, or what might seem right in my own eyes, I follow the word of God.

Luke 12:3-7
  • "Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
  • And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
  • But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
  • Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."

In today's church that might be changed to, Be afraid of them that kill the body, and get yourself a very big gun. I think we've heard some of that here even. But in my thinking, it is foolish to think that our family will be killed, and God hath not allowed it. All lip service to "Sovereignty of God" aside, God is still on the throne and He is in control, and He still has the complete and total say over who lives and who dies. Those who are always preaching sovereignty of God and not loving worldly possessions are usually those most afraid of losing their lives, savings or possessions to strangers? But if God is truly in control, and your number is up, to be sure, you shall neither prevent it nor delay it by having a big gun at hand. If your peace of mind is truly determined by a hand full of steel, then there's definitely a Spiritual problem elsewhere. I would then say, "nosce te ipsum, Know thyself," and put your trust in God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39"


Tony Warren

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2017, 05:28:03 AM »
>>>
That's ridiculous interpretation George. Whatever reason that Christ had for instructing his Apostles to sell their clothes and buy swords, it certainly was not to instruct them in violence against, or killing of their enemies.
<<<

 :Goodpoint: That makes perfect sense to me Sojourner, but what do I know.  :-\

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2017, 05:35:04 AM »
>>>
Yeah, it kinda does seem out of place. Which means he is probably not telling anyone to sell their literal clothing for a literal gun. How does that extrude the gospel?
<<<

It doesn't, Which is usually a dead giveaway. We all sold our clothing because we all (mankind) were offended in Him where none stood with him as He became sin for us, and in a sense, He was crucified because of us. Thank God we are all forgiven.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

bloodstone

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2017, 10:49:02 AM »

Also, scholars say the Jewish ma'caira or sword of those days (what they normally carried) was not what we think of as a sword today (as used in the military calvery), but more a long knife.

I also can't imagine the meaning being that we should now sell our clothes to buy weapons. And if not, then there has to be another meaning. It's just reasonable to think so.

Reformer

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2017, 12:56:26 PM »

(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)


I remember the thread well. I loved that old forum. Has it really been 17+ years?  :o

Kenneth White

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2017, 02:38:50 AM »

(excerpted from my old 1999-2000 forum post)


I remember the thread well. I loved that old forum. Has it really been 17+ years?  :o


Reformer, you're showing your age. :)

It's a dwindling number, but there are still a few of us here who have not bowed the knee to Baal and that remember those days well.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dan

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2017, 03:27:55 AM »
Come on Tony, that is a highly allegorical interpretation wouldn't you say? This is why I can't buy into Amillennialism, because it doesn't take anything literally, and spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. We are the government and the Bible teaches that the government does not use the sword in vain, but to keep law and order. Guns are used to keep law and order. Why shouldn't a Pastor be allowed to do what all the rest of us are allowed to do.

Tony Warren

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2017, 01:38:41 AM »
>>>
Come on Tony, that is a highly allegorical interpretation wouldn't you say?
<<<

Of course it's highly allegorical, because contrary to Premillennial mythology, that's all Christ did was speak in metaphorical, figurative, highly allegorical language, and He interpreted the true meaning of some of this parabolic speaking to His disciples. i.e., interpretations belong to God, not men. Something Premillennarians usually don't understand is that Christ continually spoke in highly allegorical language.

Matthew 13:34
  • "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:"
Mark 4:34
  • "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples."

Why do you think Christ did that and then interpreted or explained the true meaning of the parables or allegories to "his people" when they were alone? Was their method to this or was Christ just seeking to confuse? A parable is a allegory, a story that must be interpreted to reveal a deeper spiritual or hidden meaning. And as that verse declares, Christ "continually" spoke to the people in parables, so why would any faithful Christian think it odd that the script, purse and sword He spoke about are to be understood parabolically. You are right, it is a highly allegorical interpretation, what you don't confess is that it was very "typical" of Christ. As He did to His disciples, perhaps someday when you are alone in your quiet room, he will expound all these things to you as well.

Galatians 4:22-24
  • "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
  • But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
  • Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar."

Do you think Abraham knew the bond woman and the free woman were a parable or allegory and actually represented two covenants of God? Do you think the Scribes and Pharisees knew about it and understood the interpretation of this historical allegory? Do you think the Apostles knew before the Revelation of Christ of the mystery and true meaning was related to the Covenants? Nevertheless, it was an allegory in Scripture and God had always intended it to be from before the time of Abraham. Man's blindness to it not withstanding. The Spirit of Christ revealing it to whom He will, and whom it won't, is blinded. So when you protest, "Come on Tony, that is a highly allegorical interpretation wouldn't you say?" ...I say "yes, I would say," just as God always intended.


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This is why I can't buy into Amillennialism, because it doesn't take anything literally,
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This is really not an Amillennial or Millennial issue at all, it's a hermeneutic and methodology issue. My methodology is never to take things physically that Christ never intended to be taken physically. Like, "when I'm gone, take up your sword and resist evil." Just as the prophesy of Elijah was not to be understood physically, or of the stones in the destruction or the building of God's Temple, or the ablutions, bread, taking up your cross, wolves, plows, sheep, hunger, scorpions, thirst, vines, mountains, lampstands/candlesticks, dragons, milk, serpents, sleep, honey, scripts, purse or sword, and on and on. I'm sure the Priests, Scribes and Pharisees also couldn't buy into Christ's teachings either, because they insisted His saying "destroy the Temple and in three days He would raise it up" was meant physically/literally. By your criteria, Christ also just didn't take anything literally while they took everything literally, thus they were "unaware" that they would indeed destroy the Temple and that He as God would indeed raise up in three days. Nor does many christians today understand the Temple prophesies with a myriad of Scriptures that absolutely relate to it. e.g.:

Luke 19:47
  • "And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,"

Even as Christ taught daily in the physical Temple, these chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people would indeed destroy Him, the Temple. Not in A.D,. 70, but at the cross as was always intended. Of course, they also couldn't buy into what this passage really meant because they couldn't understand that destroying Him was in God's definition, destroying the temple. Again, too much highly allegorical speaking in the Scriptures for them.


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...and spiritualizes what is so obviously literal.
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Malachi 4:5
  • "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"

Even as the Prophecy of Malachi was so obviously literal. So much in fact that there are many misguided souls today who still believe Elijah must physically come again before Christ returns to fulfill that prophecy. Why? Because they simply cannot believe that Christ spiritualized, what to them, is "so obviously literal."

Matthew 17:10-13
  • "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
  • But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
  • Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Elijah had already come first fulfilling the prophesy, but they didn't know him and thus did to him whatever they listed (chose). It wasn't that Elijah didn't already come exactly as Malachi prophesied, it was that they simply didn't know it because they were looking for all to be fulfilled physically and it spoke in Spirit and truth. Just as they missed the Messiah for the same reason, they were looking for a earthly or physical kingdom, reign, rule, freedom from the Romans, restoration of the nation of Israel physically, etc., etc. But God never intended it to be literally or physically Elijah. Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, we "know" that John the Baptist was the fulfillment:

Luke 1:17
  • "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

John came as a metonymy in the same Spirit and Power of Elijah, not physically as Elijah, but after the model. And that is what the Malachi prophesy always meant no matter what Israel's congregation leaders supposed. It doesn't matter that some people don't get it, that's what the prophesy always looked forward to. Christ interpreted the meaning of this to His disciples (Matthew 17:10-13; Luke 1:17) explaining it as referring to John the Baptist who came in the same "Spirit and Power" that characterized the prophet Elijah. As long as we interpret Scripture by Scripture and not by what "seems" right in our own eyes, or by book sellers, church traditions or by mimicing ideas of famous theologians, we can not go wrong. Indeed, following your logic, Christ spiritualizes what is so obviously literal. But it's not so, Christ spiritualized what God always intended to be spiritual and not physical/literal, and it is He that sent the Spirit of truth that these things might be made known or revealed to us.

John 14:17
  • "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Whether one sees these things or not is not in my hands, but in the power of the Spirit of truth that reveals its validity. As it did with the more noble (honest) Bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true or not. As Jews, they didn't simply follow the teachings of the religious leaders of Israel, they followed the word. Thus the believed Christ was indeed the Messiah prophesied in Scripture, and John the baptist indeed came before Him in the Spirit and power of Elijah. What I can say is the carnal mind that looks at things in worldly, carnal or physical terms of swords, script and purse does not see these things as truth.


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We are the government and the Bible teaches that the government does not use the sword in vain, but to keep law and order. Guns are used to keep law and order.
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First, we are not the government, we elect officials to "represent" us in government. Else each of us would govern or rule ourselves and do pretty much whatever we wanted. That would be called anarchy, not government. We have those who rule over or govern us, either by military conquest, by being appointed, by succession, as representatives, by being elected, or by a inherited rule. Second, guns are used to keep law and order by the state or government, not by the church or every individual Christian. That would be called vigilantism. The church is one thing, the state is another entirely different thing. We are not given the right by God to personally go about to resist evil. On the contrary, as Christ "specifically" said (and you ignore) that we are not to resist evil (Matthew 5:38-39), so if we are hit on one cheek we are to turn to the assailant the other. Was His words in any way ambiguous or is that just something the natural man who professes Christ just doesn't want to hear deep in his flesh? This is one of those commands Christ gave that is often either ignored or twisted so that in the end it really has no meaning at all--if not meaning just the opposite of what it says. Third, there is no "Biblical Right" to bear arms, neither is there a state/government given right that all of are allowed to bear arms. The government doesn't allow a criminals to bear arms, and there is no God given right that they or anyone else have to. A government might allow one the right to bear arms, but there is no GOD Given Right to it. It's the government's job to take revenge on a assault, a robber, a murderer, not Christians. Which is why Scripture says we are not to resist evil and that the Government does not use the sword in vain.

Romans 13:3-5
  • ""For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
  • For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
  • Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

God said we are not to resist evil and that we are to 'be subject' to the government. The problem is, too many Christians don't understand what being subject means. Scripture says we must be subject not only because of their wrath (government punishment) against evil doers, but also as a matter of Christian conscience, our obedience and duty to sovereign God, because he has appointed them.

1st Peter 2:13-15
  • "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
  • Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
  • For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"

Submit because of conscience, submit for the Lord's sake, because they rule by divine appointment. Which (by the way) means we cannot decide to revolt or rebel against (being in subjection to them) those who rule over us--the Revolutionary Patriots of America notwithstanding. We are to obey our rulers in all things lawful. That means in all things that God's laws allow, not that we obey only what we agree is a just law and decide to revolt against what we don't think just. The government is ordained to be the revenger of God for good, and we cannot turn on the government by the sword because we don't like something they do. For then we are turning against the revenger that God has ordained for our good. Neither can we protect God (or need to) with earthly sword against evil, on the contrary, we fight "WITH GOD" with the spiritual sword, and He protects us. It seems that some Christians have learned "nothing" from the history of the crusades as they come with that same carnal spirit of resisting evil by the sword or gun.


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Why shouldn't a Pastor be allowed to do what all the rest of us are allowed to do.
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Because a Pastor, Minister, Shepherd, Bishop, is a leader, overseer or steward of God's people and as such should be blameless, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach, humble, not selfwilled, no striker, sound minded and not soon angered. Not even by news reports of crime.  He's an ambassador of God's kingdom and God's peace that passes understanding. He's not appointed by God to resist evil, it's the government's job to do that, or to go to war if necessary to keep the law and peace. It's the Christian's job (and should be taught) that we have a much more important and potentially fatal warfare and adversary to battle. We bear a different shield, helmet and sword against a different enemy. It's not just fancy words or a cliché or empty platitudes of Christ--it's law. We lift up a different sword that will save lives rather than take them, as that is why we were commissioned and why we were regenerated. It wasn't to live like the world with sword in hand, but to be set apart from the world living apart from carnality and fear.

Ephesians 6:10-17
  • "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.
  • Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
  • For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
  • Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
  • And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
  • And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

These are the words of God of not taking these things literally, but Spiritualizing everything again and defining terms as our Lord sees fit, rather than worldly theologians with their eyes not on Christ and truth but upon the nation of Israel, on Guns, on Temples, Physical and earthly reigns, earthly famines, wars and rumors of wars. Our war is not with literal men of flesh and blood, our battle is a spiritual warfare, and we go to battle with the sword that is the Word of God.

If we think Christ actually meant that we are now to take up the physical sword to fight for Christ, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. In our own ignorance, we will in turn perish with the sword. Just as the crusaders and those burning people at the stake in the name of fighting or resisting evil in the world for the sake of Christ. No, that was for the sake of their own flesh. We fight evil with the fire from our mouths (revelation 11), which is also the word of God, and the sword which is the word of God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Chicago Bear

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2017, 04:00:45 AM »
 :BibleRead:  &TY   :iagree: :Goodpoint:  :God:Bl-U:
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George

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Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2017, 08:42:56 AM »
First, we are not the government, we elect officials to "represent" us in government. Else each of us would govern or rule ourselves and do pretty much whatever we wanted.


 


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