[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Gun Toting Ministers?  (Read 3663 times)

Melanie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
  • Gender: Female
  • Psalms 52:8
Gun Toting Ministers?
« on: December 15, 2015, 08:20:41 AM »

I am more than dismayed about the latest trend in some Christian communities, which is Ministers not only carrying loaded guns into their churches under their robes, but also encouraging their parishioners to bring their guns to church. I know that Christianity is changing, but isn't this way over the top? I talked with some Christians on a different forum and they have mixed feelings. Needless to say, I am shocked. It certainly doesn't promote the cause of Christ and I believe it sends the wrong message about Christians. Am I wrong and this is something fine for Christians to do?

Peng Bao

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 09:58:31 AM »

I've not heard that, but it does seem strange if true. The church is the sanctuary, not the fort.


Wayne

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 07:34:48 PM »

I've not heard that, but it does seem strange if true. The church is the sanctuary, not the fort.


Yeah, but sometimes you have to stand tall, if only to secure the sanctuary. You can't let people walk in and slaughter you.

Curtis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2015, 06:14:34 AM »
I'll add my two cents to this one. I think it really depends upon where you live and how you were raised. If you were brought up in a state like say,Texas, you're likely to be more predisposed to accepting guns in church. If you were raised up in California, you're not as likely to feel that way. I think it boils down to parenting and learning certain behaviors. I'm not sure that has to do with education, except that poorer states have less educated people. But Texas is not a poor state I wouldn't think. Grandparents teach the parents and the parents teach their children. Isn't that what God said? I forget where it is written, but doesn't God say something about training up your kids, and when they grow old they will stay trained? That's what's involved here. Not education but training. If you've been trained that getting a gun is like getting a new suit, pair of shoes or car, you will always feel there's nothing wrong with carrying it with you to church.

Fred

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 07:20:41 AM »

I am more than dismayed about the latest trend in some Christian communities, which is Ministers not only carrying loaded guns into their churches under their robes, but also encouraging their parishioners to bring their guns to church.


Nothing wrong with that. With all that is going on in the world today, we have to be prepared to defend ourselves. What if some anti-church crazy came into your place of worship brandishing a firearm and started shooting people? It has happened. Wouldn't you want to have a weapon at that point to defend your family? Praying to God won't stop today's lunatics from killing you and your kids. You need a gun for safety.



Drew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2015, 08:00:53 AM »
Why Some Pastors Bring Their Guns to the Pulpit

    Josh Sanburn @joshsanburn

Advocates push for firearms in church following shooting in Charleston

When associate pastor Brian Ulch is preaching at Trinity Lighthouse Church in Denison, Texas, he’s armed with a Glock. It sits on his right side just under his suit jacket or dress shirt. And when he’s not preaching, he’s training other churchgoers around the state to protect themselves and others.

“We feel like we owe it to our congregation to engage any type of threat,” Ulch says. “If people aren’t willing to combat a threat, then they’re making themselves vulnerable.”

Since the shooting at a historically black church in Charleston, S.C., that killed nine people Wednesday, gun control is once again in the spotlight. But this time, some gun control advocates have focused on a lack of security at many places of worship around the country.
 
 
Concealed weapons are often banned at church, and some—most recently GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee—are calling for more security and more armed pastors and churchgoers. At least one business owner in Tulsa, Okla., has offered free gun training to local pastors.

Many pastors argue that arming congregants goes against religious teachings of non-violence and that guns have no place in a place of worship. Many states, including South Carolina, specifically prohibit guns in church. “The presence of a cross in our sanctuary reminds us that God’s response to violence is never greater violence,” Pastor Baron Mullis of Atlanta’s Morningside Presbyterian Church told WGCL-TV. “This is a place of peace. … This is not a place for guns.”

But increasingly, churchgoers are able to pack heat in the pews if they wish. A number of states have recently passed laws allowing concealed weapons in churches, including Arkansas, Louisiana, Illinois and North Dakota. Bryan Crosswhite, president of 2AO, an organization that advocates for Second Amendment rights, says that roughly 25 states allow concealed carry weapons in churches. But after the shooting in Charleston, his group is pushing for more states to open up their churches to firearms.

“Churches are often gun-free zones,” Crosswhite says. “That makes them a major target for those who go to worship. In most churches, the congregation has their back to the doors. People could walk right in and shoot so many people if you don’t have a plan in place.”

Several organizations specifically work with churches to arm congregants that volunteer to provide security. Chuck Chadwick, founder and president of the National Organization for Church Security and Safety, says that his organization has worked with thousands of churches since the group’s founding in 2005, including churchgoers who attend security seminars and pastors who go through gun training. “We train men and women to run toward the sound of gunfire,” Chadwick says.

NOCSSM has worked with churches around the country, but in Texas, where the organization is located, Chadwick says his group has trained hundreds of officers who are now deployed throughout the state. Since the Charleston shooting, Chadwick says he’s been getting flooded with calls from churches looking to boost their own security.

The shooting in Charleston has already reignited the push to allow guns in church, but it could potentially have a lasting effect on people of faith who no longer feel like their churches are sanctuaries from violence. Ulch, the associate pastor, doesn’t see it that way. “Personally, I would not attend a church if it didn’t have armed security,” he says. “There’s no other place where everyone is welcomed and people can come and go freely without question. I believe every ministry owes it to their people.”

Nikki

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 05:52:50 PM »

I am more than dismayed about the latest trend in some Christian communities, which is Ministers not only carrying loaded guns into their churches under their robes, but also encouraging their parishioners to bring their guns to church. I know that Christianity is changing, but isn't this way over the top?

Amen Melanie,
I've been hearing a lot about this on the news lately also, but mostly it's unbelievers making fun of believers for being afraid and acting like that, which they think is not being Christ like.  As for me, I do not want guns in my church as the Sanctuary is just that in my view. We're supposed to be different, but the church gets more and more like the world every day. No weapons welcome and no weapons necessary is my view of the church. It's obviously a knee-jerk reaction by fear mongers and I wouldn't want that type pastor as a teacher or minister in any church that I attend.

laurenp

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 07:49:05 PM »
You said this is a recent trend. It's it because of all the ISIS stuff going on?

Nikki

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2015, 10:07:02 PM »
You said this is a recent trend. It's it because of all the ISIS stuff going on?

Who said this is a recent thread? I don't think Isis has anything to do with guns in churches, that started with an american bred crackpot shooting up a church, not anyone from Isis.

Joanne

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 04:22:30 AM »
You know what? I just assumed that we all could inherently recognize that it is inappropriate to bring guns into a place of worship. But I guess the church today is of a new mind and is changing so much, and not for the better. Or should I say the members of the churches are changing philosophies according to what happens in the world. I would think that to fire a gun in the house of God would give everyone reason for pause, but apparently not. :(

George

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2015, 11:26:24 AM »
What are we now, pacifists? Flower children? Tree Huggers? Hey, guns don't kill, people kill. That's the bottom line. Don't blame people with guns and don't blame the pastors for having the common sense when most of you liberals want to stick your heads in the sand. God gave you a hand and a trigger finger so when your life or the welfare of the church is threatened he could take action through you. It's a matter of our rights and freedom and the constitution. Nothing unchristian about that.

NoMass

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 49
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 07:06:08 AM »
Hey, guns don't kill, people kill. That's the bottom line. Don't blame people with guns and don't blame the pastors for having the common sense when most of you liberals want to stick your heads in the sand.

 &TY  When did this forum become taken over by liberals?


laurenp

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2015, 11:11:03 PM »
Hey, guns don't kill, people kill. That's the bottom line. Don't blame people with guns and don't blame the pastors for having the common sense when most of you liberals want to stick your heads in the sand.

 &TY  When did this forum become taken over by liberals?


When we realized that "Christian conservatives" are now worse off than liberals.

Granny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 06:19:46 AM »
If the Pastor in my congregation carried guns to church I wouldn't feel any more safe than I do right now. Better security is a myth perpetrated by gun owners. In fact, I think I would feel less safe if Christians brought guns to church. My own personal opinion is that I would leave such a church, because a pastor waving a gun wouldn't be my definition of Christian. So I would find being a member of a congregation that had a Pastor carrying a gun, or that allowed people to bring guns into the house of God, a violation of Christian principles and a stain on God's building. It would be inconceivable to me that these type people were conscientious God serving Christians. Rather, they serve themselves.

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2085
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Gun Toting Ministers?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 06:14:55 PM »
>>>
Nothing wrong with that.
<<<

That's debatable, I'll leave it at that. I don't presume to be the end-all or final word on anything, but my belief is that there is something wrong with Pastors carrying guns with them to preach Christ in church. Pretty sure I'm in the minority of conservative Christians, particularly in the Reformed community, but I see no biblical warrant to say anything less. The solution for what ails the world (and the worldly church) is not more guns in God's people's hands, but more Christ in their mouths. You don't become just like the world in order to win the world or claim rights and liberty. On the contrary, you set yourself apart as those who march to a different drummer. It is surely the carnal nature that tells a minister to bring a gun into the house of God because that's the only way to protect his flock. The Spirit tells us that is the way of those who will perish, because their trust is in the wrong place. Always has been, always will be.

Matthew 26:51-52
  • "And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
  • Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Christ is our example. What do you suppose He meant by "all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" in relationship to Peter's actions to protect Him? Think about it.


Quote
>>>
With all that is going on in the world today, we have to be prepared to defend ourselves.
<<<

With all that is going on in the world today, you think that the answer is to become just like them? Angry, fearful and anxious? Do we, who are supposed to know the sovereignty of God, believe like they do--that our fate is in our own hands?

Psalms 59:16
  • "But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble."

Flee as a bird to his mountain, the mountain retreat, the only true refuge against such wickedness. In the day of trouble, what better defense for the people of God than within the walls the of the faithfulness of Christ? We are set apart, a special kind of people, a people that are quite different from the people of the world? Is God still on the throne, or perhaps Christians today think He is sleeping? For me, the question is not one of "if the people of God should defend themselves in the house of the Lord," but how they defend ourselves.

Ephesians 6:12-17
  • "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
  • Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
  • Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
  • And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
  • Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
  • And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

This is the righteous defense of ministers of God in His building, not guns, high walls, chariots or canons. The sword of God, which is of the spirit, rather than the sword of man, which is carnality.


Quote
>>>
What if some anti-church crazy came into your place of worship brandishing a firearm and started shooting people? 
<<<

What if the Devil puts on angel's wings and flew over Arkansas? What if the building I am in catches on fire with all exits blocked? What if a Lion escapes from the zoo and mauls me to death as I walk in the park? The world is full of "what ifs."  But all these what if's don't answer any biblical questions, address any pertinent Christian issues or tell us what "is" the Lord's will concerning our mindset, our will or our faithful walk in this life. Only the Bible does. ...but what if I refuse to listen to it?

Matthew 6:25-26
  • "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
  • Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?"

Matthew 10:28
  • "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

What does today's minister retort? "Wrong God, we have to fear these people and bring in a gun to protect the body because it's our right and just common sense?" The "key" word there being common. That is the common response. The Christian response should be much different. Now to be sure, none of this means we tempt the Lord by not looking both ways before we cross a busy highway, or that we can jump off a cliff because the Lord will protect us. It means that we should not be anxious or overly concern ourselves with "what ifs" as if God is not able to keep you safe in your church, home or walk, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone. And honestly, the chances of someone coming into your church and shooting it up are so slim that to concern yourself over it is foolish. Christians should of all people not live in an atmosphere of fear. The chances are less than you getting struck by a plane. Frankly, I believe that a Pastor going out to buy a gun to keep in the church to shoot a intruders has much more serious life issues than any would-be church-terrorist. If you choose to sit around being anxious and worrying about "what if," it's your prerogative, but God's instruction on the matter is not to be careful or anxious over such matters.

Philippians 4:6-7
  • "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
  • And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

God's instruction, be anxious for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication, and with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God. God is able to secure you much better than any gun. It is peace with God that is the seal and dispel-er and deliverer of us from anxiousness and the cares of this life.


Quote
>>>
Wouldn't you want to have a weapon at that point to defend your family?
<<<

No...  The church is the house of God, a place of refuge, a place of peace, security, a sanctuary. No man coming in with a gun can change that anymore than those who took up rocks and stoned Stephen to death changed evangelism.


Quote
>>>
Praying to God won't won't stop today's lunatics from killing you and your kids.
<<<

You're not the first to not understand the power of prayer, and you won't be the last. But you're missing the point. Do you think that when the wicked mob attacked the prophet Stephen with stones, He was thinking, "Gee, if I only had a sword?" If you do, then you don't know about true Christianity and true servants of God. Did prayer help Stephen as He was being stoned to death by that mob of lunatics (as you call them)? Indeed!

Acts 7:59-60
  • "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
  • And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

My how Christians have changed over the centuries. Unlike professing Christians today, His thoughts were not of saving his own life by his own sword, but of the salvation of His enemies and the glory of God. You imply prayer is useless in such matters, praise the Lord that God's servant Stephen (and I) disagree. You can neglect the power of prayer, but I can tell you very humbly that prayer is more than ...just words. I only repeat that God's thoughts are not man's thoughts. His thoughts are that prayer to God is more vital than you believe. Again:

Philippians 4:6-7
  • "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
  • And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

Stephen did. His prayer was for God to forgive his murderers. It is prayer, supplication and the peace of God that will give us true peace of mind, not pistols under pious robes.  If we were doing as God instructed, we wouldn't have a mind that is anxious over these things, or be worrying about if a shooter might come into our church. The thought to go buy a gun to protect my family in case some crazy person comes-a-shooting has never crossed my mind. Not because I'm oblivious to the world around me, but because of the faith of Christ in me, where I take God's instructions seriously (Php 4:6) and so set my mind on things above, rather than on the things of this world, in the politics of earthly (carnal) fear. That doesn't make me many friends with conservatives, but Oh, what a friend I have in Jesus.


Quote
>>>
 You need a gun for safety.
<<<

There is no safety in the gun. There is only safety in Christ Jesus. Christians today have forgotten that this is not their home. As God's people we are strangers and Pilgrims here, just passing through. The only reason we are still here is for the promulgation of the gospel. Afterward, we'll be called home. And not one single second before our ordained and predetermined time!!!  Not one second too soon. That's what so many "professing" Christians today cannot seem to wrap their minds around in their head-long rush into anxiousness and fear.

Psalms 4:8
  • "I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety."

Believeth thou this? ...or do you believe this?  ...or is this "to you" ...just words?

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]