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Author Topic: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy  (Read 4923 times)

Erik Diamond

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Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« on: December 12, 2012, 01:30:42 AM »
I am starting to hear more and more people asking me why national Israel, despite its miracle rebirth in 1948 and beating all the odds, cannot be part of Biblical prophecy? I realize about Roman 8/9, but why did God allow Israel become a modern nation again? What purpose will it serve? For the Church? 

While Israel will not play any role in bible prophecies, do you think God will allow current events in the middle east (eg. to destroy Israel) to gauge the spiritual condition of the Church today?

Can anyone answer some questions?

Thanks

Erik
 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Chris

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 02:18:51 PM »
I am starting to hear more and more people asking me why national Israel, despite its miracle rebirth in 1948 and beating all the odds, cannot be part of Biblical prophecy? I realize about Roman 8/9, but why did God allow Israel become a modern nation again? What purpose will it serve? For the Church? 

While Israel will not play any role in bible prophecies, do you think God will allow current events in the middle east (eg. to destroy Israel) to gauge the spiritual condition of the Church today?

Can anyone answer some questions?

Thanks

Erik

Current events? Have we fallen to following the false TV prophets who divine by the current events? I thought we were past that. The question itself is  illegitimate. National Israel "is" part of  Biblical Prophecy.  That's the part that these political minded worldly Christians don't grasp because they only look at what they can see in the world, instead of reading what is in the Bible. So Israel is a nation, the better to deceive Christians who can't take their eyes off the world.

 "I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation. His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither is there any to deliver them. Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance. "  Job 5:3-5

Israel takes root, but it is in vain. Her children are far from safety and Christians are so dense they can't see that this is no blessing from God. I don't see any miracle, nor mystery. I see delusional Christians who still do not understand the concept of a people without a Saviour being a people without God. It's amazing to me Christians can't figure this out just by scripture, but keep looking at world events as some sort of prophesy. The nation is cursed, no fruit will be there again ever, they will never again represent the Kingdom of God, which is God's people. Yet Christians all over are claiming these are God's chosen people, ignoring scripture and common sense.

"And when even was come, he went out of the city. And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."  Mark 11:19-21

Christ came to Israel for fruit first, and then to the Gentiles. They rejected God, killed his son, and now National Israel is cursed in God's eyes until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever! And presently the fig tree withered away."  Matthew 21:19

Israel is the fig tree that has been cursed, the nation where no fruit will grow in it forever. Do you see any fruit of Christ in Israel? I guess Christ knew what he was talking about. There is no fruit in Israel, no turning to Christ, nor will there ever be.

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:11-12

There is no restoration of national Israel, there is only the delusion of Christians who follow after preachers instead of the Bible. Who see the foolish take root and mistake it for God's hand upon them for good. Unbelievable!

"I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation. His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither is there any to deliver them. Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance. "  Job 5:3-5

David Knoles

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 08:28:49 PM »
I am starting to hear more and more people asking me why national Israel, despite its miracle rebirth in 1948 and beating all the odds, cannot be part of Biblical prophecy?


Give it a rest Erik. Israel is the Holy land according to the Bible, so it has to have a biblical prophesy.


Quote

 why did God allow Israel become a modern nation again? What purpose will it serve? For the Church? 


To bring the people back to God. Haven't you been listening to the bible. God will return the captivity, after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. That's why it became a nation, because they are forever the holy people and must have a place to build and plant and sacrifice.


Quote
While Israel will not play any role in bible prophecies,

Why? Because you say so? God fights for Israel because they are his people.


Quote
do you think God will allow current events in the middle east (eg. to destroy Israel) to gauge the spiritual condition of the Church today?

Israel can't be destroyed, though many anti-semitic Christians and Muslims have tried.


Quote
Can anyone answer some questions?

Thanks

Erik

People answer but you don't listen. You don't want to believe that Israel is the holy land, the Holy people, the covenanted chosen of God. Your replacement theology won't allow you to accept the Holy land. But if you are an enemy of Israel, you are an enemy of God.


Wanda

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 11:13:20 AM »
Article for you David.


 Why Israel is No Longer the Holy Land
 

Under the old covenant God set apart one nation on earth as His special people, His “holy nation” (Exod. 19:6).  Israel was the holy land, as God was present with them in a special way by virtue of the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem.  Jerusalem and Mount Zion were the city of God (Ps. 46:4; 87:3).

Today most churches teach that Israel or the land of Palestine in the Middle East continues to be the Holy Land.  However, such a teaching runs contrary to the teachings of Scripture and the New Testament.

It is true that the Old Testament prophesied a future for Jerusalem and Israel.  Thus, many churches today claim that the reconstitution of Israel as a nation in 1948 marked the partial fulfillment of this Biblical prophecy.  However, such an idea runs contrary to the New Testament’s teaching on the subject.

This paper seeks to explain why the earthly nation of Israel is no longer the Holy Land.

Let us begin by considering the Old Testament’s teaching on this subject.  Old Testament history shows Israel’s apostasy, spiritual adultery, and rebellion against God.  After exhibiting great patience and longsuffering with His wayward people, God gave the northern kingdom of Israel up to destruction at the hands of the Assyrians in 722-721 B.C., and later the southern kingdom of Judah was likewise destroyed and sent into exile by the Babylonians in 587-586 B.C.

During the days of the Roman Empire, Jerusalem was once again destroyed, as Jesus predicted, in A.D. 70.  The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the second Temple. 

Even before the people of Israel sent Jesus to the cross, with the people shouting to Pontius Pilate, “Crucify Him!  Crucify Him!,” while calling on Pilate to release to them Barabbas the murderer—even before this time, the land of Israel had become a profane place.  Jesus lamented, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!” (Luke 13:34; cf. Matt. 23:37).  Jesus told the Pharisees of His day that they were the “sons of those who murdered the prophets” (Matt. 23:29-32).

If we consider the Old Testament, we see in such places as Jeremiah 5, Ezekiel 10 and Ezekiel 14 that the once Holy Land ceased to be holy, as God departed from their land.  God had promised to dwell in the temple in Jerusalem on the condition that the people would faithfully worship Him there.  Yet, by their corrupt and false worship, the people had defiled God’s temple.

When Jerusalem was made a den of thieves, God justly departed from it, as is described in Ezekiel chapter 10 where the glory of the LORD departed from the temple in Jerusalem.  By means of a vision, God showed His servant Ezekiel that He had left the temple because His holiness could not be blended with the ungodliness of an immoral and idolatrous people.  The people were superstitious and engaged in false worship practices.

So if God left the once holy land and destroyed both the northern and southern kingdoms and again destroyed the holy city in A.D. 70, why should we think that the land still remains holy?

Although the congregation of God’s people was planted in Judea until the time of Christ, the Bible teaches us that God’s Church now has spread even “to the remotest part of the earth” (Acts 1:8 ).  Christ made both Jews and Gentiles “one” and “has broken down the middle wall of separation,” which once divided them (Eph. 2:14).  Christ made Gentiles (non-Jews) citizens of “the commonwealth of Israel” and members of “the covenants of promise” (Eph. 2:11-12).  Christ “abolished in His flesh the enmity” that long existed between Jews and Gentiles, creating “in Himself one new man from the two” (Eph. 2:15).  He reconciled “both” Jews and Gentiles “to God in one body through the cross” (Eph. 2:16).  Thus, “the Israel of God” now consists of both ethnic Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews) (Gal. 6:16).  In Christ Jesus, there is “neither Jew nor Greek” (Gal. 3:28).

The New Testament teaches that to be a Jew in God’s eyes is not an ethnic identity but a spiritual identity: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God” (Rom. 2:28-29).

The apostle Peter teaches that all Christians are “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, . . . the people of God” (1 Pet. 2:9-10).  Here we see one of the clearest expressions of the new reality that was hidden in the Old Testament but which the New Testament has made clear:  The church of Jesus Christ is “a holy nation.”  It is the new Holy Land, the new Israel.

As Christians, God makes us all citizens of the holy land, which is heaven (Phil. 3:20), when He grafts us into the body of Christ.  When we are grafted into Christ, we already in a manner possess eternal life and have become the citizens of heaven.

God is holy.  Holiness is one of God’s perfections or attributes (Exod. 15:11; Lev. 20:26; Josh. 24:19; Ps. 99:9; Rom. 1:4; Eph. 4:24; Heb. 12:10).  Since God is holiness itself, any holiness that exists in the world, any holiness that any mortal creature possesses or any land or object possess, is derivative.  Only God has the power to declare a person, place, or object as holy.

True Christians are holy; we are saints (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2; 1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:10; Heb. 12:14).  The church (Gk. evkklhsi,a|, ekklesia) means “the called out ones”—those who have been called out from the enslavement of the sinful world, the flesh, and the devil, to serve God.  Christians are holy by virtue of their union with Christ.  We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus become God’s holy temple (1 Cor. 3:16, 17, 19; 2 Cor. 6:16).  The Lord sets us apart from the world and consecrates us unto Him.  Through justification, God looks on us as holy (sanctified) as a result of Christ’s perfect holiness and righteousness, which has been imputed (transferred) to us and received by faith alone.  As we mature in Christlikeness by the power of the Holy Spirit, we progressively become more and more holy, putting off sin, renewing our minds by God’s word, and putting on Christ’s perfect righteousness and holiness.  In our glorification, we one day will be made perfectly holy in heaven.

Only God can declare something to be holy or unholy; He does so through His revealed will, the Bible (Exod. 3:5; 12:16; 20:8; Isa. 44:8; 45:6, 21; Acts 10:28; 1 Cor. 7:14).  The Bible alone is sufficient for the church’s doctrine and nothing may be added to or subtracted from it (2 Pet. 1:3; 2 Cor. 3:5, 9; Rev. 22:18-19; Deut. 4:2; 12:32-13:5).

Churches, apart from God’s Word, do not have the authority to declare something to be holy.  It is sinful to declare something common (i.e., not holy), if God says it is holy.  Likewise, it is sinful to call something holy, which God does not call holy.

God never declared the modern nation of Israel to be holy or a holy land, and therefore it is a presumptuous sin for us to declare it to be so.  In fact, such a claim runs contrary to the clear testimony of the New Testament as to the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning Jerusalem and Israel.

The New Testament shows us that heaven, which the apostle John refers to as “the holy city, New Jerusalem,” fulfills the Old Testament prophecies concerning the future splendor of Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12; 21:1-4, 9-27).  God will rebuild His temple not in old Jerusalem in the Middle East, but in the New Jerusalem, of which “the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Rev. 21:22). 

The New Jerusalem contains all God’s elect from throughout the ages, both Jew and Gentile.  It includes those whom God saved and will save under both the old and new covenants.  This truth is seen in the fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates “and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.”  And “the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Rev. 21:12-14).

The New Testament book of Hebrews gives us this same teaching, there referring to the “heavenly Jerusalem”: “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).

Yet, perhaps most clearly of all, we can see why Israel is no longer the holy land through the symbolic contrast God gave us in Paul’s letter to the Galatians (4:21-31).  There Paul contrasts the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, and their mothers, Sarah and Hagar.  Sarah was a free woman and Hagar was a slave woman.  God says that the two women represent “two covenants” (Gal. 4:24).  Hagar represents the covenant “from Mount Sinai, which bears children who are to be slaves” (Gal. 4:24)  Sarah represents the covenant of Abraham, which is fulfilled in the new covenant, the covenant of Christ.  Hagar “stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children” (Gal. 4:25).  “But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother” (Gal. 4:26).

The apostle Paul continues in Galatians 4:28-31: “Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.  At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit.  It is the same now.  But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."  Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.” (NIV)

Among other things, Paul here teaches us that the present city of Jerusalem in the so-called “Holy Land” is the land of Hagar, the slave woman.  In contrast, Christians, who like Isaac are children of promise, are citizens of a “better country,” “a heavenly one” (Heb. 11:16).  “For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come” (Heb. 13:14).  Christians are the citizens of God’s new Holy Land, which is the Jerusalem above, the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22), the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2); she is the mother of us all.

By praying for the peace of Jerusalem (Ps. 122:6), we pray for the peace of Christ’s Church.  The Church is God’s holy land, for that is where His Holy Spirit dwells.  We are the temple of God.  God is no longer tied to any particular place or nation.  For man to declare any nation, city, or place as holy is sheer superstition.  God has declared that we are the new Jerusalem.

So, in sum, under the old covenant, the nation of Israel was a holy nation only as long as God’s glory dwelt there.  God’s glory departed from them as a result of their rebellion (Ezek. 10:18).  Under the new covenant, all God’s people, Jew and Gentile, are set apart as holy and are citizens of the holy land known as the heavenly Jerusalem, heaven itself (Phil. 3:20; Heb 12:22).  Wherever God’s saints are gathered together, that place is holy only insofar as they are God’s holy temple (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19), not because the building or ground where they are is holy. 


Pearson

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 09:45:14 AM »
I am starting to hear more and more people asking me why national Israel, despite its miracle rebirth in 1948 and beating all the odds, cannot be part of Biblical prophecy?

Give it a rest Erik. Israel is the Holy land according to the Bible, so it has to have a biblical prophesy.


[Soapbox mode on]


First David, the nation of Israel is not the Holy Land, the people of national Israel are not God's people (unless they are saved), and the modern state of Israel is not a “miracle” if one defines that as a divine supernatural event. At least not unless you are going to define every single unexpected event as a divine miracle. A baby surviving an earthquake in a demolished house, the creation of America, the Soviet Union splitting up, the Jets winning the Super Bowl, etc., etc. The fact is, the establishment of Israel is far from a miracle. The nation was founded by political human beings who did human work to make it into the place it is today. People call it a miracle only to try and help support their ideas about Israel still being God's people.

It is indeed surprising to me to think that some Reformed Christians, and many educated conservative Americans in the 21st century still talk about the “miracle,” of the establishment of Israel. They constantly speak of this as if they have no idea what a divine miracle is.

A Miracle is Moses parting the Red Sea, a burning bush that is not consumed, Christ walking on water, an Apostle raising someone from the dead, a man having the devil cast out of him or a person or feeding 5000 with a few fish. A nation coming into being by normal means of human beings is not a divine miracle anymore than the building of the tallest building in the world is. Now you may say, "But It had to be God's will." Yes, but only in the sense that Obama winning the election was God's will, the earthquake in Haiti was God's will, the sinking of the Titanic was God's will and the Twin Towers falling was God's will. But we can't arbitrarily call all these things miracles just to support a particular point of view.

The bottom line is, Israel was established by the laws of men and it was god's will that it be so, but it was in no way a miracle proving they are still God's people or that they will be restored to the kingdom. That is false teaching.


Just My two cents

[Soapbox mode off]

Jesse

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2012, 06:36:44 AM »
First David, the nation of Israel is not the Holy Land, the people of national Israel are not God's people (unless they are saved), and the modern state of Israel is not a “miracle” if one defines that as a divine supernatural event. At least not unless you are going to define every single unexpected event as a divine miracle.

Zionists are the ones who perpetrate this myth that it is a miracle. And Christians fall right into step like a parrot. Just as they do calling Israel the Holy Land. It is rare that Christians won't do both. That's because the majority of Christians are of the twisted Dipsy view.



David Knoles

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 03:44:21 PM »
Zionists are the ones who perpetrate this myth that it is a miracle.

Are you calling Erik a Zionist? :)


Quote
And Christians fall right into step like a parrot. Just as they do calling Israel the Holy Land. It is rare that Christians won't do both. That's because the majority of Christians are of the twisted Dipsy view.

Maybe the Premil view has so many Christians because it is the Church view, not man's view.

rufus

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2013, 06:42:06 PM »
I am starting to hear more and more people asking me why national Israel, despite its miracle rebirth in 1948 and beating all the odds, cannot be part of Biblical prophecy? I realize about Roman 8/9, but why did God allow Israel become a modern nation again? What purpose will it serve? For the Church? 

While Israel will not play any role in bible prophecies, do you think God will allow current events in the middle east (eg. to destroy Israel) to gauge the spiritual condition of the Church today?

Can anyone answer some questions?

Thanks

Erik

According to the following passage, national Israel will never be destroyed:

Jer 31:36-37
36 "If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
 "Then the offspring of Israel also shall cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

37 Thus says the LORD,

"If the heavens above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

NASB

And,

Jer 46:28
28 "O Jacob My servant, do not fear," declares the LORD,
"For I am with you.
For I shall make a full end of all the nations
Where I have driven you,
Yet I shall not make a full end of you;
But I shall correct you properly
And by no means leave you unpunished."

NASB

Do you recall when the Lord was very angry with the Hebrews in the wilderness and he wanted to destroy them, and God told Moses that he would make a great nation from him?  Yet, Moses pleaded on the behalf of his brothers and told the Lord that He should provide no opportunity for the wicked nations to mock the God of the Hebrews, who redeemed them from the Egyptians only to destroy them in the wilderness.  Of course, God relented on his threat to cut the Hebrews off entirely.  I believe that is what we have going on with Israel today.  National Israel is actually a testimony to God's faithfulness.  Do they have any special place in prophecy today?  I don't think so.  The New Covenant makes it pretty clear on where Israel stands, soteriologically.  "All Israel", who are the children of the promise, will be saved.






Melanie

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 03:23:38 PM »

According to the following passage, national Israel will never be destroyed:

Jer 31:36-37
36 "If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
 "Then the offspring of Israel also shall cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

37 Thus says the LORD,

"If the heavens above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

NASB

And,

Jer 46:28
28 "O Jacob My servant, do not fear," declares the LORD,
"For I am with you.
For I shall make a full end of all the nations
Where I have driven you,
Yet I shall not make a full end of you;
But I shall correct you properly
And by no means leave you unpunished."

NASB


But in fact Israel (the Nation) was destroyed. Again and again they were destroyed because of their sins. In fact, the last time, they remained destroyed as a nation until 1948. So if we are to understand this the way you want us to (the Nation), then God made a mistake saying the nation would never be destroyed. In fact, it was destroyed. And Israel the nation didn't exist again until 1948. So people who use 1948 to prove Israel is God's Chosen people and there was never an end of the nation, actually prove just the opposite.

David Knoles

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 09:56:01 AM »
Melanie,
   You don't know what you are talking about. The Jewish people are entitled to the land based on their racial extraction. The promises in the passage of Deuteronomy chapter 30 are the scriptural basis for Israel's re-gathering. What those who spiritualize don't understand is that the blessing bestowed upon Israel's election of a promised land was unconditional. So God was at work bringing the Jews back to their homeland in 1948 because they had a Biblical right to reclaim their destroyed and ransacked nation (Palestine) as their own. The prophecy of Ezekiel foretold of the coming Messiah (Ezekiel 38), and the inauguration of the New Covenant when Israel would be restored. So get your facts straight. Because the antisemitic nature of replacement theology cannot stand. 1948 proves it.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 11:00:58 AM »
Quote
The prophecy of Ezekiel foretold of the coming Messiah (Ezekiel 38), and the inauguration of the New Covenant when Israel would be restored. So get your facts straight.

No, you are the one who need to get your facts straight, or in worst case, is being deceived by false doctrines. 

The New Covenant was already confirmed (or inaugurated) by Christ Jesus at the Cross with his Blood for His People, Israel, Daniel 9:27.  Not to be confused with national Israel or 1948/1967 Israel but COVENANT Israel with BOTH Jews and Gentiles as one people.  Ezekiel 38/39 was not prophesied about literal nations or empires that are planning to attack Israel in the Middle East, rather professed Christians under the influence of Satan coming into congregations of God to deceive those who do not love the Truth by spoiling the Gospel Truth.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 01:23:46 PM »
Melanie,
   You don't know what you are talking about. The Jewish people are entitled to the land based on their racial extraction.

 :Shocked_dead:  You've got to be kidding me?

 Ac 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


Melanie

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 03:23:37 PM »
David,
  What does it mean to you when God says he will treat Israel and or destroy Israel just like any other nation, if they are not obedient? Does that mean anything to you? What does it mean to you when God says he is no respecter of persons? What does it mean to you when God says there is neither Jew nor Greek, all are one in Christ?


Erik Diamond

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 04:21:15 PM »
Romans 11:25-26
[25]  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26]  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This blindness IN PART, or harness of Israel's heart lasted throughout the New Covenant period until the fulness of the Gentiles be coming in.  It means that there were some Jews actually got saved by faith along with the Gentiles. No nation Israel is needed for massive salvation program. 

Like David, the Dispensationalists were trying to rewrite verse 26 to read, "after the Gentiles be coming in, "THEN" all nation of Israel shall be saved." That is not what God said.  God clearly declared that it would be Jew first, and also the Gentiles.  And so, ALL Israel shall be saved. It means, once the last Gentile has been added to Covenant Israel, its all over.  Yes, Israel, making up of Elect from old and new testament, whom God intended to save has been saved. Then the End comes.  Not "The Jew first, then Gentiles, and then the Jew in Israel again" That is man's private interpretation based on false assumptions and misunderstanding about 'promises" concerning the land of Israel and physical temple and kingdom. 

Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Why National Israel is not part of Biblical Prophecy
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 01:31:51 AM »
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Melanie,
   You don't know what you are talking about.
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If she doesn't know what she is talking about, then how can you? Since it was you who (on several occasions) claimed that Israel became a nation in 1948. If they became a nation in 1948, then they weren't a nation prior (according to your rationale). Which means your whole premise that God claimed they would never cease to be a nation, is fatally flawed. Or you are wrong in understanding of what (and to whom) He actually Promised--whichever you prefer.

James 1:8
  • "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."

You can't have it both ways. In truth, she is actually correct. People who use 1948 to prove that the nation of Israel is God's Chosen people, fulfilling the promise that there will never be an end of the nation, actually prove just the opposite. Since by their own declaration that she became a nation in 1948, that proves that the nation did come to an end. Just another example of their disjointed understanding and misapplication of scriptures. It couldn't become a nation in 1948 "if" it was already a nation that couldn't be destroyed. And it couldn't have ceased to be a nation if God's actual promise "to them" was that it would never cease to be a nation. But it is this single-minded, illogical methodology, hermeneutic or system of interpretation that precludes Dispensationalists from coming to a scholarly, harmoneous, rational conclusion (considering the biblical facts).


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The Jewish people are entitled to the land based on their racial extraction.
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No one is entitled to anything based upon their ethnic or racial extraction. At least not when it comes to God. With high minded men, yes! But with God, man's ethnic makeup is immaterial to the choosn, Covenant relationship and inheritance of Israel. For we all ultimately come from the same stock (Adam), and are all one in Christ Jesus. If we are "Children of God," then we are the actual seed of Christ, our Messiah. You think God cares about the genetic makeup in a person's body? A body that will end up decayed or in flames and ashes anyway? Not at all. It's the Spiritual makeup that God cares about. Not self-righteousness, Elitism nor ethnic purity, because God truly is no respecter of persons. Jacob has He loved and Esau has He hated. And it had nothing to do with genetic makeup, they were twins. It had to do with whom "He Chose" to be His people, and whom He didn't choose.

Galatians 3:27-29
  • "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
  • There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
  • And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

What shall we say then? "Wrong God! There is a difference between the true genetic seed and the spiritual seed? No, the promise to Abraham was to His Seed, which is Christ, and all those in Christ are heirs of that Promise. I say we take God at His word concerning His Promise, Covenant and Promised land. In Christ, it doesn't matter if you are Jew or Gentile, you are the chosen sons of God, you are Jews and you are the Israel of God. That's the whole point and the mystery of which He spoke, and which apparently you do not understand.


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The promises in the passage of Deuteronomy chapter 30 are the scriptural basis for Israel's re-gathering.
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Are they? I agree that it is sometimes used as some sort of basis wherein Dispensationalists "claim" there must be a regathering or restoration of a political nation, but a closer look reveals no such prophesy.

Deuteronomy 30:1-3
  • "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
  • And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
  • That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee."

Dispensationalists generally see everything as a prophesy pertaining to the nation of Israel, when it is in fact pertaining to a spiritual nation, a spiritual compassion, a spiritual people in captivity who have been set free. Spiritually brought home to be reconciled with God. Moreover, the qualifier is that the prophesy is that when they return, they would obey God's voice according to all that He commanded them and their children, with all their heart and soul." To think that this occurred with God in 1948 is to dabble in absurdity. Clearly, a necessary condition for the re-gathering of Israel (according to the prophesy) was their returning to the Lord. That has not occurred in the nation. But it has occurred in the Israel of God because the restoration prophesied as coming from the Messiah, the freeing of the captivity, the building again of the tabernacle, the establishment of the kingdom, the returning unto the Lord, etc., etc., all took place at the time of the cross, not in 1948. And it pertains to the Covenant with Israel wherein Gentiles are also included in that Olive Tree, fulfilling such prophesies--as it is written. And when completed, thus (in this way) all Israel shall be saved.

Acts 15:14-17
  • "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
  • And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
  • After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
  • That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

You think that prophesy of Amos of returning the Captivity pertains to Israel in 1948, but Here God's word in Acts declares unambiguously that this prophesy of Amos was fulfilled at the time of the cross. Dispensationalism does this time and time again. Taking prophesies fulfilled and alleging that they pertain to some future event, some future kingdom, some future Messiah's coming, some future physical captivity set free by Christ.

Amos 9:9-15
  • "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
  • All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
  • In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
  • That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
  • Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
  • And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
  • And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."

Like Dispensationalists, the Jewish people would not believe that the evil would overtake or prevent them as a nation, and like Israel, they are wrong, and the prophesy declares it. Even though they would not believe that Israel would be destroyed, according to God, it was. The Kingdom was taken from them, and it wasn't returned in 1948. Clearly, according to Acts, Christ the Messiah only has one Kingdom. And the prophesy pertained to it. So was the prophesy fulfilled at the time of the cross as the text in Acts tells us, or is the return of the captivity in 1948 or even a future return? God or man, the question never changes on who we choose to believe. It's the choice between the sound hermeneutic of receiving God's word as the ultimate authority, or of receiving man's fallible private and personal interpretations.

The truth is, Israel (the nation) wasn't any closer to Christ in 1948 (or today for that matter) than they were in Christ's day when the Kingdom was taken from them. So how can we possible conclude that they returned to the Lord fulfilling that prophesy? As I say, it's absurd to think this passage confirms the nation of Israel's restoration to God, when they again became a nation. Only a professing Christian ignorant of the Biblical facts or predisposed and brainwashed into believing that, would even say this "remotely" qualifies.

Indeed, when did the Lord God reconcile or return His people to him? Was it not at the cross? And when did they start to obey His voice according to all that He commands, with all their heart and soul (as per the prophesy)? It was in Christ, through the obedience of faith. Because they were born again from the dead unto it.

1st Peter 1:22-23
  • "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
  • Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
Romans 16:25-26
  • "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
  • But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

The obedience of faith in Christ, and the secret now made manifest or revealed is that the Gentiles also were to be part of the Covenant with Israel. And in Christ would all the Israel (of God) be reconcile or returned to Him. In Christ would they start to obey His voice according to all that He commands with all their heart and soul. It was in Christ, through the obedience of faith. That is when the prophesied obedience of Israel took place and when the prophesied "return of the captivity" was fulfilled. As we were in bondage, in captivity to Satan. And Christ came to set us free. That is when He had the prophesied compassion upon Israel. That is when He gathered "His People" from all the nations as His lost sheep returning home. The prophesies have nothing to do with 1948 or the physical nation of Israel being repopulated by Jewish people. But as Christ was wont to say, "...if ye will receive it."


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What those who spiritualize don't understand is that the blessing bestowed upon Israel's election of a promised land was unconditional.
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Another well oiled myth that is revisited again and again by those who hold this doctrine. But the Truth is, God never promised the physical nation of Israel anything unconditionally. Obviously, since He judged the nation again and again and again! And unlike the Dispensational mantra, that's not rhetoric, it's unadulterated fact. Listen to God's word concerning the nation of Israel and see if it was promised to them unconditionally.

Deuteronomy 8:18-20
  • "But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
  • And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
  • As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."

Those are "conditions" by anyone's definition. I mean really? How much clearer can it get. God would destroy the nation of Israel, just as He did the nations before them, if they refused to be obedient to Him. And (as previously stated) the only way they can be obedient to God's standards, is in Christ. It's not even a question, it's as plain as day. Thus the Dispensational theory that God promised to never destroy the physical nation of Israel is found to be wanting. The conditions were plainly set, and God is immutable. It's not that God goes back on His word, it's that Dispensationalists are blinded to, or don't understand His word.

There is a distinction between the Conditional Promises God made to the whole nation of Israel concerning the Physical promised possession, and the Unconditional Promises that God made to the Israel of God concerning the Spiritual promised Possession. One "represents" the Old Covenant in law, and the other the New Covenant in Grace. One is a temporal land, and the other is an eternal land. The problem is, you mix all these prophesies and promises to Israel (conditional and unconditional) into one jumbled goulash, and the result is there is no distinction. Thus all roads lead to where you want them to, not where God designed His paths.


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So God was at work bringing the Jews back to their homeland in 1948 because they had a Biblical right to reclaim their destroyed and ransacked nation (Palestine) as their own.
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First of all, you're contradicting yourself again. Because you just posted where you believe God said that the nation of Israel would never be destroyed. Now you're all but confessing that indeed the nation of Israel was in fact Destroyed and ransacked, and it wasn't until 1948 that they were restored. Moreover, can Israel be destroyed and God has not done it?

I understand perfectly why you make these confused statements. It's because when truth meets fiction, one of them has to give way. To any rationally thinking person, if God had truly meant that the Nation of Israel would never physically be destroyed, then the nation of Israel would have never been physically destroyed. Visa'vis, God didn't mean that. This is a Dispensational interpretation of the text that has to either be incorrect, or God was lying. Which do you say it is? Yes, the people remained alive, but the nation was fully destroyed. I say (Dispensationalism notwithstanding), God never declared anywhere in scripture that the nation of Israel would never be destroyed. ...since it was.

As someone already told you, 1948 is a testament to all rational people that God never made such an unconditional statement concerning the nation. It is decidedly NOT a testament that He made.


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The prophecy of Ezekiel foretold of the coming Messiah (Ezekiel 38), and the inauguration of the New Covenant when Israel would be restored.
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Israel has been restored in Christ. Not as Dispensationalism defines it, but as God defines it. And He defines it as giving His people a new heart of obedience, that His laws are spiritually written within them, where they have the Spirit to actually be God's people. Rather than just give lip service to being God's people, even as many (Jews and Gentiles alike) do today. A new Covenant with Israel wherein His chosen can approach the throne of grace, having been restored in the image of Christ to approach in righteousness. What does scripture tell you? A Covenant of continuing laws that condemn, or a new Covenant of Grace.

Hebrews 8:7-10
  • "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
  • For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
  • Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
  • For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

How could they have returned to the Lord and He have written His laws in their hearts when they continue to reject the Covenant, the Christ and the only way to remission of sin? It makes no sense! In order to be Covenant Israel, they have to go through Christ, who is the Covenant Messiah. For there is none other name.

Hebrews 10:16-20
  • "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
  • And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
  • Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
  • Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
  • By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

It's not the same old Pharisaical / Dispensational backward thinking of physical kingdoms, lands, freedoms and prosperity, but a new spiritual deliverance and opulence in Christ Jesus. No more holy Temple buildings in the middle east, but a Spiritual Temple not made with hands.


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So get your facts straight. Because the antisemitic nature of replacement theology cannot stand.
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Witnesses of the truth of God's word cannot be Antisemitic. For then they would be opposed to their own Savior. It is actually Antichrist that cannot stand the truth. And the fact is, any nation (as opposed to individuals) who is anti or opposed to Christ, by definition cannot be the Covenanted nation of God, the chosen of God, nor the Israel of God ruled by Him.

Hebrews 10:16-17
  • "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
  • And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

Hebrews 13:20-21
  • "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
  • Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

The blood of Christ is what is confirming the Covenant with Israel, with God's chosen, with God's elect Holy people, restores a people to God. Without being in Christ, there is no restoration of Israel, no promised land nor everlasting inheritance. But to a remnant from national Israel, and a remnant from the rest of the nations, there is.


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1948 proves it.
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What 1948 proves is that 365 days passed after 1947. What scripture proves is a different story indeed.

Matthew 21:19
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

If you want to prove that the nation of Israel today is God's people, you would have to prove that the nation has returned to the Lord, are not adversaries of Christ, and that Christ was wrong in His judgment that those who reject His Messiah-ship, are not children of God.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

 


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