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Author Topic: Fearful Sights and Great Signs  (Read 7898 times)

Frank Mortimer

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2017, 06:36:48 PM »
  More or less, yes.

Matrix

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2017, 06:18:43 PM »
For Premillennialists this is no problem, because they amazingly don't think Satan was bound at the cross. But for Bible believing, Reformed, Amillennial, Postmillennial and Preterist Christians, this should be understood. Because they all believe Satan was bound at the cross. So when Satan was bound  by Christ, clearly the nations (political and foreign governments and lands) were still under deception. But the verse says that's the reason Satan was bound, so they wouldn't be. And so it's clear that can't mean nations as most people today understand the term. Almost by it necessity for us it has to mean Gentiles. That's my thinking on this. Anyone but Premillennialists should understand this as the bringing in of the Gentiles into the New Covenant.


Tony Warren

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2017, 12:38:39 AM »
>>>
It doesn't say Gentiles, it says nations.
<<<

Nations and Gentiles are both the "exact same words" with the exact same meaning in Scripture. In Revelation it applies to any group of non-Jewish people. i.e., Heathen (nonbelieving) people who didn't know the God of Israel. With this event described in Revelation 20, their blindness is lifted so that they would now have this knowledge and not continue to be deceived by the great deceiver, Satan. That's what the language of the nations no longer being deceived illustrates. Salvation went to the Jew first, and now with the fall of Israel it is going to the Gentiles/Nations.

Isaiah 42:1-3
  • "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
  • He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
  • A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
  • He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."

This prophesy refers to Christ and the bringing judgment to the Gentiles/Nations refers to His bringuing the law and Covenant to them in the New Testament/Covenant dispensation, as is also quoted from and confirmed by Christ Himself in Matthew

Matthew 12:15-21
  • "But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
  • And charged them that they should not make him known:
  • That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
  • Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
  • He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
  • A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
  • And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

Showing judgment to the Gentiles/Nations is synonymous to bringing God's law and revelation to them that they are not deceived. The same illusteration of Christ, the Messenger of the Covenant, that we see in

Revelation 20:1-4
  • "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
  • And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
  • And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  • And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

It's the same scenario. The Messenger come down from Heavebn to bind Satan and bring judgment to the Gentiles/nations is Christ Jesus. Natiopns and Gentiles refer to the same group of people.

It's like the Greek word [agelos], that "means" messenger, but is also translated angel by many translators. The same with the word [ethnos], meaning a group of people, specially non-Jewish, is also translated nations because the Gentile or non-Jews are foreign peoples or nations. Just as in the Old Testament it's the Hebrew word [gowy], used the exact same way. Gentiles/nations. Revelation 20 is what is spoken about in the prophesy of Isaiah, where judgment is given and the Gentiles/nations flow into the great city, which is spiritually the Lord's house. This is salvation unto the Gentiles.nations and judgment upon national Israel, which came with Christ's death and resurrection.

Isaiah 2:1-4
  • "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
  • And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
  • And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
  • And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

And all nations shall flow unto it is pointing to the great commission where Christ told us to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, and the nations/gentiles flowing into it are the fruits of these labors in Christ Jesus. This started at the cross and ends when all Israel is Sealed unto the day of redemption. We can't get hung up on the word translated nations and start thinking like the the evangelicals, of the nation of Israel and other physical nations, that's not what God has in view. political Nations aren't saved or kept from being deceived by satan, individuals are saved and they come into the "Spiritual Nation," and become "Spiritual Jews" and  are brought "Spiritual Peace" and comfort in the "Spiritual" Israel of God (Romans 2:28-29, Ephesians 2:11-22). These nations in Scripture contrast the Jewish perop[le, i.e., meaning non-Jews. e.g.:


Galatians 2:15
  • "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,"

One group contrasted with the other. The word you see translated Nations is the exact same word you see in this verse translated Gentiles, and of course this [ethnos], clearly means here the non-Jews or what Scripture calls Gentiles. These were the Foreigners from the commonwealth of Israel and the vcovenants. Galatians 2:15 contrasts the Jewish people with the non-Jewish people by the use of the word (Gentiless/Nations).


Quote
>>>
I believe that when God says the nations won't be deceived, then it literally means the nations won't be deceived.
<<<

That's a overly simplistic approach, with only one problem. God didn't say (or inspire written) the nations won't be deceived, He inspired written that the [ethnos] wouldn't be deceived. The word translated nations is an "ethnonym," or a name applied to a ethnic group that is foreign to the Jewish people--which is why it is also translated Gentile. This truth can be clearly seen in passages such as Romans 3:29 where the Jew is evaluated or measured against the [ethnos] or Gentile.

Romans 3:29-30
  • "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
  • Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."

Here God is measuring the Jew in relationship to the non-Jew or [ethnos], the same word you see in Revelation 20 translated Nations. "Is He the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Nations?" Clearly, the word measures the Jew with the non-Jew as both under one God. It's not measured Jews against nations, all throughu Scripture the Jews were a nation also. It's saying not only the Jewish nation, but the Gentiles as well.

Thus Revelation 20;3 is illustrating that the Messenger from heaven who laid hold upon Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit, setting a seal (security) upon him so that he should not deceive the Gentiles anymore, is the Lord Jesus Christ. Why does He do this? Because Salvation is "now" going out in a great way to the Gentiles also in the New Covenant dispensation.

Acts 13:46
  • " Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Again, salvation going to the non-Jews (Gentiles), as contrasted with it first going to the Jews. That's what the word of God is illustrating. Moreover, if Revelation 20:3 literally meant Satan could not deceive the physical nations anymore for 1000 years, that would be an automatic contradiction, because there will never be a time when all the nations of the earth are saved, and therefore there will never be a time when Satan is not deceiving the nations in that way. Obviously it doesn't mean Satan doesn't deceive literal nations, literal kingdoms or governments. It refers to the non-jews who were previously without the Covenants of promise that Israel had, now having Satan's power to mislead and delude them, removed.

Revelation 20:3
  • "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

The only people who Satan was bound so that he wouldn't deceive them is the elect gentiles who join the Holy Nation (1st Peter 2:9), those who the Spirit of truth has removed the scales from their eyes in New Testament Revelation. For example in Acts God says by Christ's work salvation is sent to the Gentiles/Nations.

Acts 28:28
  • "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."

That word ethnos here could just as easily be translated nations as it is in Revelation, meaning non-jew. It's the same word with the exact same meaning in contrast to the Jews. Because Christ vbound Satan, salvation is now going to the non-Jews, not to nations, kingdoms or governments as we understand the word nation. When God speaks about not deceiving the nations, He is talking about "these" Gentiles of Acts 28:28 to whom salvation is sent.


Quote
>>>
This binding of Satan will happen in the future and then all nations will turn to Christ.
<<<

All "Nations" will "NEVER" turn to Christ. At least not in the way you imagine. But in God's economy, the gospel has been preached to all the nations, and the elect of those nations have turned to Him. Salvation is on an individual basis, not on a national one. The nations will [never turn to Him because that's not God's plan, as the election that "God has chosen" from before the foundation of the world, is a vestige, a residue or remnant from the nations, not any whole nation, much less all the nations. Salvation had to be preached to the ends of the earth, and it was. After this preaching to the nations/gentiles of the earth, the end will come.

Acts 10:34
  • "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
  • But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

As far as Satan being bound in the future, if that were really true, then none of us of the nations that are living today or since the cross, would be saved. We'd all still be held captive in his house, not set free in Christ Jesus.

Mark 3:27
  • "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

If Satan wasn't bound at the first advent, then we are of all men most foolish and gullible to think that we have been set free from the captivity wherein he held us. But we Thank God that this is not true and that you are proven wrong by Scripture. Thus we already have been spoil for the devil and have already een redeemed or ransomed from is hand, and our eternity already fuully secured by the seal of Promise. We have the authority of the word of God to lean on, rather than the words of man's nullification and doctrines.

Jeremiah 31:10-11
  • "Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
  • For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he."

The strong man in Christ's teaching is Satan, and he was bound by Christ over 2000 years ago at the cross so that the Gentiles/Nations who knew not God, could be set free of the bondage they toiled under and have knowledge of Him. For us, Satan is like the destroyer that has been destroyed, but to those in unbelief, as a destroyer that goes forth as a raoring lion.

Hebrews 2:14-15
  • "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
  • And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

This salvation, this liberty from Satan, this ability to not be deceived any longer is already a done deal. When Christ returns, it will be for judgment, not to leave Heaven to come and reign on this sin cursed earth. He already has a kingdom, already has a reign, already has brought restoration to Israel, already has set the captivity free, already has brought salvation to the Gentiles, already had brought peace to Jerusalem. Many of the Jewish people missed it, and just as many Gentiles in their premillennial theology as well.

Luke 11:21
  • "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Do you know what that means? It means the strong man has already been bound and his spoil already taken.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

ZeroCool

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2017, 01:23:29 PM »

Tony. I just want to say that I love your patience with people, and the way you go about answering questions and explaining things in a way where you don't need to have a P.hd to understand. Thoroughly and with lots of scripture proofs backing up what you say. May the Lord richly bless you, and please keep up the good Lord's work.

Henry

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2017, 01:57:00 PM »
 :ditto:  I'm more of a lurker, but I've learned so much here also.

Nikki

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2017, 05:38:33 PM »
He already has a kingdom, already has a reign, already has brought restoration to Israel, already has set the captivity free, already has brought salvation to the Gentiles, already had brought peace to Jerusalem. Many of the Jewish people missed it, and just as many Gentiles in their premillennial theology as well.

Luke 11:21
  • "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Tony, Great explanations of how and when Satan was bound for the sake of the nations. I also read this on the commentary of the strong man and the spoil of his house by Barnes.


"Verse 29. Or else, etc. He takes a new illustration to confute the Pharisees, drawn from breaking into a house. A man could not break into the house of a strong man, and take his property, unless he had rendered the man himself helpless. If he had taken his goods, it would therefore be sufficient proof that he had bound the man. So I, says he, have taken this property--this possessed person--from the dominion of Satan. It is clear proof that I have subdued Satan himself, the strong being that had him in possession. The words of else, mean or how. How, or in what way, can one, etc.
Spoil his goods. The word spoil commonly means now, to corrupt, injure, or destroy. Here it means to plunder, to take with violence, as it commonly does in the Bible."

Chris

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2017, 08:38:28 AM »
That was a difficult verse to understand, but you guys make it a lot more comprehensible and we thank you. A welcome and blessed break from the vitriol and bullheadedness of politics.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2017, 12:11:42 PM »
 :iagree:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Jon Thomas

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2017, 01:58:33 AM »
I'm Amillennial, but I must admit that I had wondered what this passage of Revelation 20:3 meant, including the phrase in verse 4 saying "and judgment was given unto them." This thread has been enlightening. Thanks to all.

Drew

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2017, 04:01:08 AM »
Erik,
  Why is the Church falling a fearful sight? It seems it would be a disappointing thing to see, but not a Fearful sight.

I agree. It seems literal to me. Beware taking things spiritually.

Tony Warren

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2017, 05:00:18 AM »
>>>
Erik,
  Why is the Church falling a fearful sight? It seems it would be a disappointing thing to see, but not a Fearful sight.

I agree. It seems literal to me.
<<<

Not Fearful? Scripture interprets Scripture as to what is fearful. And God's word says His judgment is indeed a fearful thing. And that's what this time of apostasy is. The wrath of God upon His people.

Hebrews 10:30-31
  • "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
  • It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

I'd say this time is very fearful, for the vengeance of God is the ultimate fear.

As far as it "seeming" literal? Of course it does. Most everything in the Bible seems literal. Didn't the Jews think Elijah had to very literally and physically return in order to fulfill prophesy? Yes, but they were wrong. When Christ said they had to eat His flesh, they walked away in droves. Because they presumed He was speaking to them very literally. ...which of course He was not. And they presumed He was talking about a literal Temple, when He prophesied they would destroy it. The list is endless. The point is, assumption is the mother of Biblical errors. As far as it seeming fearful, Scripture interprets Scripture.

Luke 21:11
  • "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

Erik's verse illustrates the verse itself is a model which itself demonstrates some of the fearful sights. They are given as Famines, Pestilence and Earthquakes, which throughout Scripture "points" to spiritual events. e.g.:

Famines

Amos 8:11
  • "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, b]not a famine[/b] of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

In other words, a spiritual famine, a shortage or hearing God's word, a scarcity, drought or absence of the true gospel message, which spiritually are the bread of life and the waters of life.

Pestilence

Revelation 18:2-4
  • "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
  • For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
  • And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

These thing spiritually are equated with Famine, with Pestilence, disease and plagues and with spiritual shaking or trembling. The fearful signs are not literal, but spiritual signs of famine in not hearing the word of God, spiritual disease of a spiritual plagues upon those of Israel who are not sealed (a spirit direct from the pit), and the spiritual earth shaking which shakes the foundations of the church, which is spiritually Babylon and was represented by that city. It's all God's spiritual judgments. Not God very Literally shaking heaven or literally shaking the earth, or stars literally falling from the sky to the earth (as if that's plausible) or figs literally shaken from a tree, but the spiritual signification of these things.

Earthquakes
Isaiah 13:13-19
  • "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
  • And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
  • Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
  • Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
  • Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
  • Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
  • And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."

Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, the "spiritual" condition of God's people when He brings judgment upon them. The children of the city will not be spared, everyone not having the seal are under the Lord's wrath.


Quote
>>>
Beware taking things spiritually.
<<<

Beware of taking things in Scripture "any" other way than the Lord intends them taken. Be it crooked roads, Sheep, valleys, Vines, Goats, Fig Trees, Olive Trees, Temple, City, Dragon, Bread, Jerusalem, fields, Virgins, Serpents, Kings, Mountains, Lions, wolves or anything else. Scripture interprets scripture, not our assumptions on what it "seems" like.

"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2017, 12:49:09 PM »
Quote
I'm Amillennial, but I must admit that I had wondered what this passage of Revelation 20:3 meant, including the phrase in verse 4 saying "and judgment was given unto them." This thread has been enlightening. Thanks to all.

Hello, you can read Tony Warren's study on Revelation 20 where he has explained verse 3 and 4.  Blessings.

Revelation 20: A Reign Before or After the Great Tribulation
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Halle

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2017, 09:12:19 PM »
Quote
>>>
Beware taking things spiritually.
<<<

Beware of taking things in Scripture "any" other way than the Lord intends them taken.

 &TY  The authority is not our own thinking, but the word of God itself. With examples too numerous to mention.

Halle

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2017, 09:17:19 PM »
Erik,
  Why is the Church falling a fearful sight? It seems it would be a disappointing thing to see, but not a Fearful sight.


Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That's why a falling church is a fearful sight. Christ is no more their sin bearer because they willfully have forsaken his word of truth. This is truly a fearful thing.

 


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