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Author Topic: Fearful Sights and Great Signs  (Read 8537 times)

Chicago Bear

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2017, 06:53:37 AM »
Maybe both. What I am saying is that they may be related. When I see the confusion going on in the church, I see the same confusion going on in the world. Blindness in the church, blindness in the world. Seduction in the church, seduction in the world. Hatred in the church, hatred in the world. Delusion in the church, delusion in the world. Even the verses you quote about the church, the same could be said of the world. There is the same reviling, lying, leaders with false teachings, persecution of those who are good, disdain for good Samaritans, so I say it may be both.  Look at the way Christians are thinking. Just like the world. Justifying evil, rejecting truth, rationalizing sin. You think that's coincidence?
Either the Bible will Keep you from Sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible

Reformer

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2017, 03:42:33 AM »

I also think they are related, but the scriptures "upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity" I believe refers to the nations God speaks about in Revelation 20 which Satan was bound so he couldn't deceive them during the millennial reign, but after when Satan is loosed they are deceived to come against the faithful church.

Re 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I believe this is the distress of nations and their perplexity references Jerusalem, the church.

upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity

Melanie

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2017, 01:19:28 PM »

I believe this is the distress of nations and their perplexity references Jerusalem, the church.

upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity

Not sure I follow all the way through. How specifically does distress of nations reference the church? Thanks.

Stan Pat

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2017, 12:53:49 PM »
 :Goodpoint:

Reformer

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2017, 07:15:10 PM »
Not sure I follow all the way through. How specifically does distress of nations reference the church? Thanks.

Melanie, because the nations reference the New Testament church.

 Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The nations not deceived are the church. The distress is in the churches, a great tribulation.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2017, 09:05:27 PM »
Quote from: Reformer
The nations not deceived are the church. The distress is in the churches, a great tribulation.

I thought so, Reformer. Thank you.

I am having a hard time convince some people that the "distress of nations, with perplexity" actually refers to the fall of new testament church. But they were like, "What? What about all the crazy things in the world? Don't you hear all the terrible things in this nation lately? I think it is a sign of Christ's coming."  They thought I must be crazy to even suggest that God's church, not the world, is being judged.


Think this is what Christ warned about in the ten virgins parable? One who can see the true signs while the others do not see and still go to church to buy and sell for oil.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

George

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2017, 12:12:08 AM »
The nations not deceived are the church. The distress is in the churches, a great tribulation.

 :Say_what: Are you joking?

George

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2017, 12:15:11 AM »

I am having a hard time convince some people that the "distress of nations, with perplexity" actually refers to the fall of new testament church. But they were like, "What?

 :Say_what:  What?

    There's two of you?

Tony Warren

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 03:51:26 AM »
The nations not deceived are the church. The distress is in the churches, a great tribulation.

 :Say_what: Are you joking?

Christians don't joke about prophesy. Granted, it's a difficult concept so here's the overview for anyone interested. The passage quoted of Revelation chapter 20 holds one of the keys to understanding this. Note it specifically said that Satan was bound so that the nations/gentiles would not be deceived for this 1000 years, which is the millennial period that the New Testament church reigns on earth until Satan is again let loose. The "critical" and pertinent question for Amillennialists is specifically how have the nations/gentiles not been deceived from the time of the cross until Satan is loosed?

Isaiah 2:4
  • "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
  • O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD."

When Christ bound Satan He brought Peace to the nations/gentiles who were at war with God. In His Spirit they turned their implements of war into implements of peace signified by the pruninghooks for the cultivation of the good ground.  We know Satan was bound at the cross so that the Lord could spoil (take by conquest) those he held captive of the nations/gentiles. When Christ went to the cross He cast Satan out of the kingdom so that His church could be built of the nations/gentiles.

Luke 10:17-19
  • "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
  • And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
  • Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

By His death on the cross and resurrection to life Christ gave us the power over serpents (Mark 16) that they could not hurt us, and the Serpent of course is Satan. Satan falling from heaven is synonymous with saying that Satan would be cast out of the Kingdom of heaven so that Christ could seal the 144,000 from the nations, redeeming the house of Israel in building His church. It is Christ who brought the nations perpetual peace, harmony, and blessedness. This is the same portrait as Revelation 12 where God says Satan, the deceiver of the world, was cast out of heaven by Michael and His messengers. Not literal/physical Heaven, but it is symbolic of the Kingdom of heaven. Again, consider what is truly being said concerning this Serpent, the deceiver Satan. The deceiver of the world or nations was cast out at the cross.

Revelation 12:7-9
  • "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
  • And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
  • And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Not a literal heaven, not a literal Dragon, and not literal stars on a woman's head, but symbolic. This heaven represented the Kingdom of heaven, just as when God said the Kingdom of heaven suffered violence (Matthew 11:12) where the violent took it by force, as He was speaking of the kingdom of God on earth, which was the Lord's congregation Israel in travail. There was spiritual warfare and Christ came to comfort Jerusalem (Spiritually) and bring peace. All these passages speak of this restoration of the Kingdom of heaven, but God's word declares first Satan had to be cast out and bound from deceiving until the millennial reign was over. By His cross, He cast Satan out so that He could set those of the nations/gentiles free of their captivity wherein they were "deceived" and lost. He didn't stop everybody of every nation/gentile from being deceived, it was the elect, those of whom He would build His church that were in view. That's who Satan was bound for the sake of "These" not being deceived.

Matthew 12:29
  • "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
  • He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

Those who were not with Christ were the messengers of the Kingdom (revelation 12) at war with Him. Those with Him the messengers of the Kingdom of heaven with Micheal, the chief or head messenger of the Covenant. He is the Michael who cast the Dragon out of the Kingdom and set those he held in captivity free. But FIRST He had to bind Satan (which is what Revelation chapter 20 cooborates) so that the nations/gentiles wouldn't remain deceived and these nations would come to Christ. Listen dutifully to what Christ says concerning this casting out and binding:

Mark 3:23
  • "And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
  • And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
  • And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
  • And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
  • No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

Clearly, the strong man is Satan, those he held captive in his house are the elect whom Christ set free, but Jesus explains "first" He had to bind him. In other words, it was Christ who cast out Satan, but first he had to bind him. And as Revelation 20 illustrates, only then could the nations/gentiles no longer be deceived.

Now, after this New Covenant church is fully built, after all 144,000 of Israel are sealed of the Spirit of promise, after all have received God's mark in their forehead who are to be marked, Satan will be loosed from this binding and shall THEN be allowed to deceive these nations/gentiles.

Revelation 9:4
  • "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

When Satan is loosed he cannot hurt those truly saved, truly sealed of God in their foreheads or minds, but only those who are pretenders. Those who have not made their calling and election sure. In this we can see both why He couldn't be loosed until all Israel were sealed (Revelation7), as well as how when he is loosed he cannot hurt those who were sealed. In other words, only those who are not truly saved will be hurt as these moved by Satan gather together against the camp/congregation of the Saints, where they shall fall even as Babylon the great fell.

Yes, these are difficult passages, but the real problem (as I see it) is that so many modern day Christians are yet carnal, and so they think carnally. That is to say, they think in terms of this world, its possessions, its politics, its literal nations, its government, its Kings, cities, Israel, its famines, earthquakes, floods. The read scripture of stars falling and they surmise that literal stars will fall to earth as surely as Israel surmised that Elijah would come back or that the Messiah would overthrow the Roman government. The truth is, God has something infinitely more urgent, essential, spiritual and important in mind than earthly governments, nations, physical famines and the literal dirt of the nation of Israel.

When Revelation speaks of the nations not being deceived, it represents the process of the  restoration of God's congregation Isarael by incorporating the nations/gentiles into the New Covenant. The reference to nations not being deceived there speak of the Spirit building of the church from the gentiles. And after the millennial reign and sealing process, Satan will be loosed and the gentiles/nations that were kept from being deceived, are then allowed to be deceived with this coming of Satan. i.e.:

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12
  • "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  • And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Why? ..so that all who had pleasure in or enjoyed unrighteousness, and who refused to believe the truth that His witnesses testified to, would be damned! So you see, God is not mocked. While the church today wants to excuse those who will not receive truth with a "don't judge," God is  more straight and to the point with them. false Christians will not go unpunished.

Ultimately we need to ask ourselves many questions about the words of Revelation. Like who are the nations/gentiles hat are not deceived? Why and how were they "not deceived?" Who are the kings of the nations that God sends to fulfill His will? Why are they (after this millennial) allowed to be deceived, when during it they weren't?  Etc., etc. The nations/Gentiles not deceived are the New Testament church who receive a seal and protection for this 1000 years, and that was kept from being deceived so God could build this body up. And yet when Satan is loosed as judgment for their unfaithfulness in the end time church, they are deceived (Revelation 20) and by a strong delusion these kings of the nations assault the Saints. This deception is delirium, like a spiritual insanity which the Scriptures call "strong Delusion," and it is an extreme foolishness or irrationality of God's people (what the binding of Satan before prevented) to actually be offended at truth and stand against the faithful Saints. This is when the 2 witnesses of truth are spiritually killed of them because the time of their testimony unto salvation is over (all Israel having been saved). The synopsis of which is Revelation 11:7-10

Revelation 11:7-10
  • "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
  • And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
  • And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
  • And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

At this time the nations/gentiles have been given the court and have made the once great city, spiritually called Jerusalem, morally and spiritually equivalent to Sodom and Egypt, and have removed the true witnesses of Christ from the church. Thus there is famine, but not of literal food and water, but of the spiritual version (Amos 8 ) which is the word of God. Just as in the days of Israel's desolation and blindness:

Isaiah 29:7-10
  • "And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
  • It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
  • Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
  • For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
  • And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:"

Ariel is Jerusalem. So shall it be to this once great city when God brings judgment upon her exactly as He did upon Israel. Thus the the warning of God that the Gentiles/Nations (same word) cannot boast against the Jews (Romans 11) because they are no better and stand by grace, illustrates the Gentile congregation can fall and come under judgment of God just as easily as national Israel if they forsake their first love. The judgment of God is that their Candlestick will be moved out of its place, their light has gone out, they become delusional, spiritually insane, perplexed and in confusion. This is a portrait of spiritual night terrors. Where once perfect love cast out feat, now fear reigns, for their hearts are set on earthly things rather than spiritual things. This is what happens when the powers of heaven are shaken, the stars (messengers) fall to the earth no more to be reflectors of God's light. This is their judgment. The powers of the Kingdom of heaven are symbolically the Sun, Moon and Stars, representing the lights of God's kingdom. The same stars Revelation 11 said Satan cast down to the earth. This meaning these lights will be put out as God's judgment on the unfaithful congregation.

Luke 21:25-26
  • "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
  • Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

It's all a declaration of God's judgment upon the church, and by extension of diminishing light, the world.

Jude 1:13
  • "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

The apostasy and consequent judgment on the church is a prelude to the final judgment when the books are opened. Just as the nation of Israel in its foolishness thought it could never happen to them, so also the New Testament congregation is under the same delusion that it cannot fall. Yet it is written, Judgment begins at God's house.

Ezekiel 9:6
  • "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

There is nothing new under the sun saith the Preacher. Judgment must begin at the house of God, and the world's is not far behind. But Christians are so wrapped up in everyday affairs of this life, possessions, politics, that they neglect their first love and abandon their real commission. Which isn't to save the world (an impossibility) but to preach the gospel that some (the elect) might hear and be drawn. So many are offended at the truth at every turn, and reject God's word in favor of man's plans. Many so filled with anger, hypocrisy, hate and pride that they can't see the trees for the forest. With their eyes on houses, lusts, taxes, politics, nations, rulers, possessions and the pleasures of this earth they forget about the reason that they were redeemed, and the obligation of their stewardship.  These are the nations that are at war with, are offended by, and that destroy Jerusalem. It's not Russia, it's not North Korea, not China, it's the kings of the earth who are the wicked ruling and reigning within the New Testament church. And judgment begins there.

1st Peter 4:16-18
  • "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
  • For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
  • And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Indeed,  Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice, and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth (1st Chronicles 16:31).


"nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Stan Pat

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2017, 05:07:09 AM »
  :L-candle:  :BibleRead:  :God:Bl-U:  :L-candle:

Erik Diamond

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2017, 07:11:57 AM »
Thank you Tony and Reformer. It helps.   
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

George

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2017, 08:01:59 AM »
 :idonotagree:

Dan

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2017, 09:35:09 AM »

When Christ bound Satan He brought Peace to the nations/gentiles who were at war with God.

It doesn't say Gentiles, it says nations. I believe that when God says the nations won't be deceived, then it literally means the nations won't be deceived. This binding of Satan will happen in the future and then all nations will turn to Christ.

Frank Mortimer

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2017, 02:14:31 PM »
It doesn't say Gentiles, it says nations.

That's a translation Dan. They are both the same word.

Johnny

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Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2017, 05:29:56 PM »
 :hammerhead:  Wow, call me stupid, but I really didn't know that. So they translated it Nation or Gentile depending upon what the translator believed the context was talking about?

 


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