[ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]

Author Topic: Fearful Sights and Great Signs  (Read 8561 times)

Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2233
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« on: January 09, 2011, 04:44:41 PM »
Luk 21:9  But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luk 21:10  Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

The spiritual nation and kingdom against spiritual nation and kingdom. And we understand that famines and pestilences to be understood spiritually, where Word of God cannot be found in congregation of Israel and where there won't be no longer cure for spiritual sins. But exactly what is "fearful sights" and "great signs" from heaven?  Does it has to do with the signs in sun, moon of stars to be understood as judgment of the church like we read in verse 25-27: 

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Can anyone explain to us what does "Men's hearts failing them for fear" means? Does it mean that they have no fear of what's going on as they cannot discern the signs.  Am I right?

I have met with some people who believe that the phenomenons involved with dead birds and animals in parts of the world. They pointed to the shifting of our magentic poles, etc. etc. We even have some Christians talking about the return of Christ in 2011 or the secular belief of the end of the world in 2012.  They often used Luke 21:25-26 as a proof.  But I am not sure that is how we should understand it. 

Your thoughts? 

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Rick Reeves

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
  • Obviously I'm a Novice
Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 06:08:18 PM »

They are all signs that the end is near. Man is not paying attention to the signs, whether in the Church or the wickedness and sexual openness in the world that is looked at as normal these days. Dead birds, terrorists, 3evil spirits, life literally depending upon the food ffactories, the electric company and the water company and the mortgage company? Man can't do anything for himself anymore. We all depend on man. Where's God in all this?

 Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The fear is not of God, but of all these things coming upon man.

Yes, the end Is Near!!! And of course, as usual, the crowd laughs at such comments!

Erik Diamond

  • Affiliate Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2233
  • Gender: Male
  • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 08:55:15 PM »
Quote from: rick reeves
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The fear is not of God, but of all these things coming upon man.

Are you saying that Men in verse 26 are professed Christians (and the wicked) that they have no fear of God, only looking after "those things" which are coming on the earth. The question is what 'those things' for the POWERS of heaven shall be shaken.   Please explain.

Thanks,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Davis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 07:37:56 AM »

They are all signs that the end is near. Man is not paying attention to the signs, whether in the Church or the wickedness and sexual openness in the world that is looked at as normal these days. Dead birds, terrorists, 3evil spirits, life literally depending upon the food ffactories, the electric company and the water company and the mortgage company? Man can't do anything for himself anymore. We all depend on man. Where's God in all this?

 Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The fear is not of God, but of all these things coming upon man.

Yes, the end Is Near!!! And of course, as usual, the crowd laughs at such comments!


Rick,
  Unsaved man has always depended upon himself. The difference now is that Christians are joining that group and have lost that love of God. And that is their heart failing them for fear. Yes, one thing I agree with Tony Warren is that Christians are preoccupied with worldly things and issues. He at least got that right. I don't know that the end is near, but I do know that Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth is happening now.

matt205

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 10:54:23 AM »

 Dead birds?  It's all of God.

 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Matt 10:29

 Mock on!


Puritan Heart

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 01:12:07 PM »
Hello Erik,
From my own understanding, verse 26 of Luke 21 is not talking about us, the Elect of God, but rather about the wicked.  As we know, there are only two generations, the wicked of the world, and the Righteous Elect of God.

Secondly, I believe it to literally mean that mankind get's a ''sense of all not being right!''  Their hearts 'failing them' I also believe to literally mean just that: if not complete and outright heart-failure for fear of what they might expect to happen - there is confusion!  Furthermore, we cannot exclude the fact that man playing God through various modes of weather manipulation and modification, namely through organizations the likes of HAARP and DARPA might have much to do with this: namely the birds falling from the sky phenomenon:  there have over the last few years been numerous articles, however, mostly not in mainstream media, and too many to mention here, but more specifically, of the Chinese in Beijing creating snow, and Russians deflecting it, through their weather manipulation programmes.  There even exists a UN Weather Warfare treaty to which most major nations are signatories. 

Why do I tell this?  Simply that whilst we are to look at the signs ''out there'' I believe the greatest and most obvious signs (to most) are the signs of wickedness amongst professing believers, the apostate church!  THIS is where I would begin to look for the signs of Christ's soon coming.  I am of the personal belief, that if I understand it correctly, the 'abomination of desolation' is now firmly seated in the church!  THIS, if true, is SHOCKING!!

Also, as believers in Christ, we cannot allow media to manipulate us into reading the signs of the times!  This I am almost sure you already know  :)

In verse 28 we read: Luke 21 v 28: And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.   If we were counted amongst those whose ''heart fail them'' we would not then be able to ''life up our heads'' to see the Son of man coming in a cloud, with power and great glory.''  verse 27.

Revelation 21 v 8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I am sure you noted: ''the fearful'' are counted amongst the many who will not enter the New Jerusalem, thus we are NOT to be fearful in these days that lie ahead, instead I believe, our very greatest comfort is that which many of us have been eagerly reading, learning and studying, posting and talking about, for as long as we all individually have been, that JESUS CHRIST IS INDEED COMING BACK, and whilst we cannot tell the exact time, we must ''WATCH AND PRAY WITH REJOICING!''

Luke 21 v 26:  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Before I end, I confess this is all very new to me, yet I feel I too can add my comments in the hope that as and where I am wrong, I too will benefit through being corrected 

Erik, ''look up, for our redemption draweth nigh''  HOW WONNNDERFUL, yes??  :D

Alexandra
Habakkuk 3: 17 - 19

Tony Warren

  • Administrator
  • Affiliate Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2085
  • Gender: Male
    • The Mountain Retreat
Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 01:30:21 PM »
    >>>
    We even have some Christians talking about the return of Christ in 2011 or the secular belief of the end of the world in 2012.  They often used Luke 21:25-26 as a proof.  But I am not sure that is how we should understand it.

    Your thoughts? 
    <<<

    Well, to be honest, I don't read anything about dead birds, crabs, fish (well, maybe fish) as something preceding the end. And seeing as I believe that we interpret scripture by scripture, not by secular world events, I think that the interpretations of these passages are less world drama, catastrophe and disasters and more Church drama, catastrophe and disasters.

    Luke 21:10-12
    • "Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
    • And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
    • But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

    Scripture interprets scripture, not the evening news. While I admit that it is possible physical/worldly tragedies near the end might in some ways mimic the spiritual, I believe this is pure "speculation" and probably more assumption because of world imbalance than substance.

    This whole scenario and prophesy is of what takes place after the beginning of sorrows. It mostly deals with the fallout from the apostasy in the Church and the fall.

    I know you didn't ask about all the verses, but I'll give a short synopsis of these passages for anyone else interested.

    #1. The great earthquakes in diverse or different places is not ground movements, but the spiritual shaking in the Churches, that will shake it to its core. Men falling as if figs shaken from off a fig tree. Spiritually speaking, there is no longer a firm foundation nor stability in the Church that it should not fall when shaken. This shaking is the presence of God in judgment upon it. And that thing shaken shall fall. As for example, the great shaking of Ezekiel 38 with Gog and Magog attacking Israel.

    Ezekiel 38:18-23
    • "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
    • For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
    • So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    • And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
    • And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    • Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

    #2. The famine is the lack of hearing the word of God preached because Christians are more interested in worldly commiseration, prosperity, pity parties, politics, etc. Consideration "seriously" of God's word is an afterthought, as there is no love of God as it has grown cold. Christians want smooth words of nullification, not the pure word of law. Thus, the pure word is unheard. And this is God's judgment, that they should receive what they wanted most. To not have to listen to the word of God. even as illustrated in Amos 8.

    Amos 8:10-12
    • "And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
    • Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
    • And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it."

    This famine is not just something that shows up, but something the Lord Himself sends upon the house that is called by His name as judgment.

    #3. The pestilence is the spiritual sickness or disease that sin brings as it incurably permeates the flesh. A judgment of spiritual disease that God sends upon His people because of their rebellion. And yet for all that, they will not return to Him. Thus they are killed by these plagues just as He brought Judgment upon Israel.

    Amos 4:9-12
    • "I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
    • I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
    • I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
    • Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel."

    Likewise, God sends spiritual pestilence upon the Church, which represents Israel, and their pestilence, sores, disease is incurable. They will not return to Him, thus they prepare to meet their God.

    #4. The fearful sights are the Churches spiritually on fire as the Lord judges His people. A fire which only the elect can see, and only the elect will fear, and only the elect will stand far off from. For it is the fearful thing "that we see" of those who have fallen into the hands of an angry God.

    Hebrews 10:30-31
    • "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
    • It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

    Christ says, when ye shall see the abomination stand in the Holy Place, then flee to the mountains. This is the fearful things "WE SEE" coming upon the earth. Things which only the Elect see while the Church goes about their business as usual.
     
    #5. The great signs from heaven are the signs in the Church, as it is the representation of the Kingdom of heaven. the signs as portrayed in Revelation chapter 12, as the woman there and the stars being cast down. Signs which are not literal stars in literal heaven, or a literal woman floating there standing on the moon, but spiritual signs indicating the congregation of God. These great signs are the great abominations in the visible representation of the Kingdom of heaven. The Sun becoming dark and the moon not giving her light. These are the great signs in heaven. Not literal birds dropping dead or the moon literally becoming life's plasma. For example as God uses these images in Mica

    Mica 3:5-6
    • "Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
    • Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them."

    In other words, it signifies a spiritual darkness. It has nothing to do with the literal sun. it means they will no longer come with the light of the lord, but come in darkness or wickedness.

    #6. The failing of men's hearts is an ancient synonym (1st Samual 17:32) for "being afraid," an expression denoting one seeing something terrible.
     
    The people will be afraid for the Church because of what they see coming upon her. They fear for looking after those things because they see the judgment of God against the abomination of desolation, that the powers of heaven are shaken and the Church removed out of its place. Stars fallen. Moon turned to darkness. These are all terrible things to the Elect. Things that they have fear at seeing. Even as explained in Revelation 18

    Revelation 18:8-10
    • "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
    • And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
    • Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

    The elect stand far off in fear of the great terrors that have come upon her, and we mourn for her. For what she use to be, and for what bankrupt desolate shell it is now. Just as if someone was being tortured/tormented and we could watch and yet do anything about it. That is the scenario. We stand in fear of God's terror there, and mourn for the Church that was once God's precious bride. the last verses of this chapter in Luke confirm this is after the fall when we are told to flee:

    Luke 21:21-27
    • "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    • For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    • But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    • And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    • And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;p and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    • Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    • And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

    Clearly, this is speaking about the fall of the Church and its repercussions on those around it. There is a certain Godly fear for them, and for what is taking place, the great signs that they see.

    "nosce te ipsum"
     
    Peace,
    Tony Warren
    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

    Erik Diamond

    • Affiliate Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 2233
    • Gender: Male
    • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 02:55:23 PM »
    Thank you Tony Warren or excellent explanation. As you can see, I had some struggling understand what Luke 21:26 says:

    Luk 21:26

    Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    I thought God was talking about men (wicked) who do not care what is going on in the church.  So, Tony, verse 26 is talking about the Elects who is afraid of what they see in the church as God judges her.  Like what we read in...

    Rev 11:13

    And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    The remnant are the Elects who have fled to the mountain, mourning over the city as it is being judged.  They are affrighted because they see the signs of God's judgment, yet give God the Glory for He avenged us.

    I am afraid that we are seeing these signs now in many churches today.

    Erik
    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

    Trotter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 87
    • Gender: Male
    • "We are The Light of the World"
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 04:29:07 PM »

     Good synopsis Tony. Erik, you believe that the Church has already fallen?  Are you mourning now, see fire, and do you see the terrors in all Churches? That would mean the Church age is over, correct?


    Erik Diamond

    • Affiliate Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 2233
    • Gender: Male
    • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 05:29:05 PM »
    Quote
    Erik, you believe that the Church has already fallen?  Are you mourning now, see fire, and do you see the terrors in all Churches? That would mean the Church age is over, correct?

    Yes, Trotter. 

    Erik
    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

    David Knoles

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 238
    • I'm a llama!
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 05:58:36 PM »

     http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?129507-What-are-the-fearful-sights-and-great-signs-from-heaven

     Prophhecy is coming true. Famines and fearful sights. Very literally.


    Erik Diamond

    • Affiliate Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 2233
    • Gender: Male
    • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 10:28:14 PM »
    I would like to share one of many examples of "fearful sights" I am witnessing in many churches today, including my former churches.  The false prophets and christs, and their lying signs and wonders are the "plagues" that fall upon those deceived people.  Here you go:




    Whoopee Cushion Sermon Series, seriously?!?

    Tommy Sparger, pastor self-help guru of Northpoint Church in Sprinfield, MO has had an epiphany. Apparently, the good folks of Springfield have been wanting / needing an innovative church to combine God's word with the whoopee cushion. Yep that's right. For the next few weeks you can hear relevant and creative sermons with names like:

        Pull My Finger
        Silent But Deadly
        Blame it on the Other Guy in the Elevator
        He Who Smelt It Dealt It

    We can't wait to hear Tommy's justification for combining God's word with fart humor. Regardless, we think this idea does more than just stink.

    Source: www.alittleleaven.com.  

    Visit the site and it is part of the reason why the judgment of the church is taking place now.  

    Erik
    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

    Puritan Heart

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 325
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 07:41:59 AM »
    [Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

     So, Tony, verse 26 is talking about the Elects who is afraid of what they see in the church as God judges her.  Like what we read in...

    Rev 11:13

    And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    Erik
    [/quote]

    I too thank you Tony for the explanation  :)  I am however confused by Erik's interpretation of quote: Elects who is afraid of what they see in the church as God judges her.  end quote:  In the following verse we read that we are not to be afraid, as the heathen's will be:

    Jeremiah 10 v 1:  Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
    2 - Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.


    Jeremiah chapter 9 tells of God's pending judgement upon the house of Israel because of their disobedience! 

    Also, Revelation 18 v 20: Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    From the above I understand that whilst it is human nature to mourn the death and demise of a 'loved one', we are seemingly commanded here, to REJOICE over the fall of the apostate church, for God's Justice has avenged us, the Elect.  yes / no??

    Secondly, his reference to the following scripture of Revelation 11 v 13 in light of his interpretation is also something I do not understand:

    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    We read in Revelation 11 v 12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 - And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    If the two witnesses, being the Elect were ''called up hither'' that who might be the remnant of verse 13?

    Please help me to better understand this.

    Alexandra



    Habakkuk 3: 17 - 19

    Erik Diamond

    • Affiliate Member
    • ******
    • Posts: 2233
    • Gender: Male
    • We are to God the aroma of Christ. (Eph 5:2)
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 09:25:00 AM »
    Quote
    Also, Revelation 18 v 20: Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    From the above I understand that whilst it is human nature to mourn the death and demise of a 'loved one', we are seemingly commanded here, to REJOICE over the fall of the apostate church, for God's Justice has avenged us, the Elect.  yes / no??

    Yes.  That is why we read in Revelation 11:12;

    And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 - And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    The remnant are the Elects who have fled from babylon and standing afar off in the mountains mourn and affrighted by what they see the judgment of the city.  Yet they also gave glory to God for he has avenged us.  They also "know" that by the these signs, they will expect Christ's soon appearance in the sky. That is why we read in Luke 21:28-31:

    28 And ; for your redemption draweth nigh.when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads

    29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 

    We will know that Christ is coming because we "SEE" the signs of judgment upon the city.  Like when we see trees start to set forth leaves in the spring, we will "mentally know" that summer is near, so likewise, when we see the judgment of the city which the signs in sun, moon, and stars (and power shaking in the heaven) signifies, we will KNOW that Christ's coming is near at hand.  We, Elects are the remanent.

    Quote
      Secondly, his reference to the following scripture of Revelation 11 v 13 in light of his interpretation is also something I do not understand:

    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    The "same hour" refers to "one hour" of judgment of the whore in Revelation 18.  This speaks of the total fall of the church as remnant (Elects) are afraid or fear of God's judgment upon the city. 

    Quote
    We read in Revelation 11 v 12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 - And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    If the two witnesses, being the Elect were ''called up hither'' that who might be the remnant of verse 13?

    Many people are reading into verse 12 thinking it speaks of the rapture. Not so.  The spirit of life came upon Two Witnesses so they stood up (to prophesy again as judgment against the city) as they flee to to the "glory" (cloud) of God in the mountains for protection. It might be helpful if you read about sixth seal in Revelation 6. It speaks about the same event. It is NOT the rapture yet until the last trump (seventh trumpet).  The signs in the sun, moon, stars, earthquake (shaking of the kingdom) have to occur first for the wrath of the Lamb has come upon the city.  Yes, you are right to say that Two Witnesses (as well as kings of the earth of Revelation 6) are the Elects, and they are still the remnant in Revelation 11:13.

    Does this helps?

    Erik
    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

    Puritan Heart

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 325
    Re: Fearful Sights and Great Signs
    « Reply #14 on: January 12, 2011, 05:54:25 AM »
    Hello Erik,

    What I am still not sure about is that the remnant of verse 13 are the same as those of verse 12 - who are called from above and ascend up to heaven in a cloud.  I do realise this is not the rapture.

    Revelation 11v12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 - And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    I am not totally confused about this book since I have read and ''tried'' to study the book of Revelation, combined with some excellent information I found on the MR site.  The most marvellous discovery for me in these past months has been how scripture literally ''opens up'' when interpreting scripture ONLY with scripture.  I will continue to study and Trust Our Father to lead and guide through the Holy Spirit, and again, I thank God for this forum, for Mr Tony Warren, and for those, like yourself, who faithfully study and assist those like myself.  Thank you Erik  :)

    Your Sister in Christ 

    Alexandra
    Habakkuk 3: 17 - 19

     


    [ Home | Eschatology | Bible Studies | Classics | Articles | Sermons | Apologetics | Search | F.A.Q. ]