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Author Topic: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?  (Read 27119 times)

jd@

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2003, 09:30:27 PM »
Quote
I have no problem calling myself a Calvinist. Of course I am a "Christian" first.

That reminds me of Rabbi Duncan saying he was first a Christian, then a Catholic, third a Calvinist, fourth a paedobaptist and fifth a presbyterian.  I like that.  They are all necessary (IMHO) but the order needs to be maintained - my Calvinism needs to be subjugated to my Christianity.  If that can be done, I don't think calling oneself a Calvinist takes away from the glory due to Christ alone.

David Knoles

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2003, 03:59:29 AM »
Tony,
  The next time you imply that me and my Dispensationalist brethren are stubborn and obstinate in holding to our church tradition over biblical principles, you might want to come back to this thread and read your Calvinistic brethren's posts again. ;)

Diane Moody

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2003, 05:23:33 AM »
I would say yes and No. Allow me to explain. I submit to you, the only time that I have had a hard time, is when I'm talking to Calvinists. And that is the truth. That is usually the only time that it becomes hard to explain, and seems complicated.

Wow, I hear ya! And I think that is evident by those in this forum who cannot seem to understand what you are saying. All Calvinists are protesting, not one that I know of who is not. Ironic isn't it. Didn't Jesus say that a prophet is without honor in his own country?

 Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

He that loves Calvin more than Christ is not worthy of Christ, wouldn't you say? And calling Christ's doctrines Calvinism doesn't glorify Calvin? What? Who are they kidding? Only themselves.


Diane Moody

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2003, 05:26:54 AM »
Tony,
  The next time you imply that me and my Dispensationalist brethren are stubborn and obstinate in holding to our church tradition over biblical principles, you might want to come back to this thread and read your Calvinistic brethren's posts again. ;)


Both obstinate yes. But the difference is, dispensationalism is a false doctrine, this is just a false label on a doctrine that is true.

iGreg

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2003, 09:42:24 AM »
Quoting Diane:
Quote
He that loves Calvin more than Christ is not worthy of Christ, wouldn't you say? And calling Christ's doctrines Calvinism doesn't glorify Calvin? Who are they kidding?
Speaking for this Calvinist, I certainly did not say any of that.

BTW, Christs doctrines are not Calvinist. Calvinist is a label used to explain Christs doctrines to others in summary fashion.

For example, TULIP, TULIP is not meant to be a superior label to Christian, yet it does explain some of the main principles of true Christianity.  

I would not say that those who believe TULIP is Biblically true are replacing Chrisianity with TULIPISM.
 ;)

Diane Moody

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2003, 10:18:17 AM »

BTW, Christs doctrines are not Calvinist. Calvinist is a label used to explain Christs doctrines..


I know, we've heard the rationalizing at least ten times already. No Thanks! I will explain Christ's doctrines by labeling them, Christ's doctrines, not Calvinism. It's the only label they need.
 Thanks

Dan

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2003, 06:17:09 AM »
Quoting Diane:
Quote
He that loves Calvin more than Christ is not worthy of Christ, wouldn't you say? And calling Christ's doctrines Calvinism doesn't glorify Calvin? Who are they kidding?
Speaking for this Calvinist, I certainly did not say any of that.

You didn't have to say it, the fact that you call it by Calvin's name and not Christ's name says it for you.


iGreg

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2003, 12:34:33 PM »
Quoting Dan:
Quote
You didn't have to say it, the fact that you call it by Calvin's name and not Christ's name says it for you.

Improperly representing the views of others is not a proper way to discuss or debate issues. Once again:

I am a Christian first. In order to differentiate myself from those who use the Christian label & yet are not adhering to the Bible I use the label Calvinist in addition to Christian to clearly show that I take the Bible seriously as the word of God. When I discuss the Bible with others who call themselves "Christians"(for example liberal "Christians" or Roman Catholic "Christians") & I identify  my  Christian theology as "Calvinist" they then know generally where I am coming from. They usually smile, snicker, or chuckle that I am one of those fundamentalist Christians who takes the Bible literally.

BTW, I also sometimes refer to myself as a fundamentalist Christian, conservative Christian, or even a Bible Christian to others (usually to those who do not know what Calvinism means). Our we to ban the use of fundamentalist and conservative as well in discussing the Bible? What other words shall we ban from discussion?

I have to presume this attack on Calvin is due to the belief (by some) that Calvinist theology is not Biblical. I do not claim to be an expert on Calvin & he may well be incorrect on some point somewhere, but overall I have found his understanding of the Bible quite Biblical. For those who say Calvin was not Biblical, lets hear where you think he is wrong.

Tony Warren

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2003, 02:15:37 PM »
>>>
saying he was first a Christian, then a Catholic, third a Calvinist, fourth a paedobaptist and fifth a presbyterian.
<<<

..and I know a guy who is a Christian first, then a Evangelist, third an Amillennialist, fourth a Sunday school teacher, and fifth a Baptist. What does all that have to do with calling Christ's doctrines after the name of another Man? It has nothing to do with it. Apples and Oranges.

The real issue is a man John Calvin, not the word universal (Catholic), not an action such as Evangelism, not a doctrine such as baptizing children.

Why is it a necessity to call baptizing children, Paedobaptism? The "TRUTH" is, it isn't! The necessity is in men's minds! Only in men's minds is that word a necessity--Just like Calvinism.

The issue is the principle involved in taking upon ourselves the name of the man Calvin, and calling God's doctrines (the doctrines of Grace) Calvinism. I have no problem in saying John Calvin held the doctrines of God. I do have a problem saying the doctrines of God are Calvinism.  And NO it's not semantics! The issue is John Calvin's name usurping Christ's doctrines under the guise of distinctives. The point is preferring to call one's doctrines of Calvin, rather than of Christ, under the trumped up and false defense that it's a necessity. The point is, "the wisdom of doing this."


Quote
>>>
I like that.  They are all necessary 
<<<

No, they are not necessary. Boldly saying that doesn't make it so. That's called "proof by assertion." They are no more a necessity than my saying I am Supra-Lapsarian is a necessity. To claim it's a necessary term is ridiculous and quite frankly, spurious at best. And the absolute undeniable proof of that is that thousands upon thousands of Christians (both before and after Calvin) have existed, preached the gospel, and prospered in faithful doctrines among unfaithful doctrines without ever taking upon themselves Sir John Calvin's name. Untold numbers of Christians who didn't "think" it necessary, and they did fine evangelizing without it. There's a tree with fruit in it. That is what I call proof! Because if it was really necessary, they couldn't have done it. And they're still doing it. I'm living proof.

 Your continued insistence that Christians of necessity need to do this, is just another example of the dubious practices of some Calvinists so steeped in man-made traditions that they have grown to look at them as a prerequisite. It is not a necessity, it never has been a necessity, and it never will be a necessity, no matter how much you assert it is. To insist that it is, is pure Calvinist Tradition, Pride and Propaganda.


Quote
>>>
I don't think calling oneself a Calvinist takes away from the glory due to Christ alone.
<<<

Of course you don't. That's because, by your own admission, you are a Calvinist, and proud of it. A Catholic doesn't think calling his works doctrines a doctrine of Grace takes away from the Sovereignty of God either. Why? Because He's a Catholic, and proud of it.   No group thinks the dogma of their traditions are in error, else they wouldn't call themselves that name and hold to those tenets. That's a given.

Nevertheless, how one can take on the tradition of calling himself after "the man Calvin," and yet insist it's not to the glory of "...the man Calvin," is almost incomprehensible!! If it wasn't to the glory of Calvin, why not call it the doctrines of God's Sovereignty?  Why not call it "the doctrines of Grace?" Why not call it "the 5 points of the Doctrines of Christ?" Why not call it "The Doctrines of Predestination?" ...Why, Why Why? You want the truth, or are you content with more Calvinistic propaganda?

 The truth is, because, that would Not be to the glory of John Calvin, now would it? His "name" has to prevail on the doctrine, that he get the glory for the teaching of the doctrine of Predestination. It's not rocket science why it's called Calvinism.

2nd Corinthians 10:17
  • "But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
  • For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth."

What I think, is not the point. The point is, what brings glory to Christ is the elect taking on the name Christ-ians, not Calvin-ist. God IS a Jealous God. It's a Biblical principle in the simplicity of the mind of Christ, but one which (strangely enough) causes "Calvinists" much consternation. ..Which in itself is a caveat and strong witness against it. It's obviously more than just a name, it's seems more of a mini-religion in itself. If not, why such emotional and angry consternation over any thought of not using this man's name? No one said anything about taking away the doctrine, just the name. And that causes a war?

Christianity is complicated to explain using the word Calvinist, much less without it you say? Again, No, that's not true! Moreover, it's a trumped up excuse. Like I said, Christianity has been explained among false doctrines for 1400 years before Calvin. This man's name itself complicates Christianity, and causes strife and arguments over Calvin, and not Christ. It's the simplicity that is in the name of Christ that men cannot gainsay nor resist. It's men who make simple things like Christianity, complicated by introduction of traditions. When man loses sight of the fact that God is a jealous God, and loses his sensitivity, and kicks against the pricks, sin usually follows. We are not espoused to Calvin (at least I am not), we are espoused to Christ. His name is the necessity in true Christianity and biblical doctrine, not Calvin's.

2nd Corinthians 11:1-3
  • "Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
  • For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
  • But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

I expect nothing less than blind tradition from those who, from their heart, blindly follow traditions. Be it Jewish tradition, Catholic tradition, Baptist tradition or Calvinist tradition. And note, this from a guy like me who is "from" the Reformed tradition. Because I have looked into the reflecting pool and seen the truth. The wise gaze into the reflection seen in the mirror of the soul and are educated by it. By contrast, those who never look deep into that reflecting pool of the soul, will never really know what it looks like, nor discern the true vision of wisdom.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2003, 02:21:37 PM »
>>>
Tony,
  The next time you imply that me and my Dispensationalist brethren are stubborn and obstinate in holding to our church tradition over biblical principles, you might want to come back to this thread and read your Calvinistic brethren's posts again.
<<<


Ouch!
   Touche'

  David, that may be the only thing I've heard you say that I think I fully understand.  :-[

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony Warren

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2003, 02:31:19 PM »
I know, we've heard the rationalizing at least ten times already. No Thanks! I will explain Christ's doctrines by labeling them, Christ's doctrines, not Calvinism. It's the only label they need.
 Thanks

This argument of differentiation has very little "real" merit at all. We're being redundant, but I don't need this label, you don't need this label, obviously many more don't need it, the early church didn't need it to differentiate themselves from the many antichrists by calling themselves "of Paul," or "of Peter," etc., etc.  And honestly, neither does anyone else. We are just a lot more creative in coming up with reasons why we do need to Re-name Predestination and Sovereignty, Calvinism. This is what Paul was saying. That we shouldn't say we are of Paul or of Apollos. We don't divide ourselves over labels based on men or sects following men's doctrines. That messages seems to be lost, or changed, or wrested in our day of holding onto the traditions of men. And that is my point. We don't need to say we are "of Calvin" anymore today than these Godly men needed to say that they were "of Paul" or Apollos to differentiate themselves from the many Antichrists that were present then. Selah!

 He who hath an ear, let him hear.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Mike Repass

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2003, 04:27:38 PM »
Main Entry: ism  
Pronunciation: 'i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: -ism
Date: 1680
: a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory

Calvinism = The distinct doctrine of Calvin

Main Entry: 1-ist
Function: noun suffix
Etymology: Middle English -iste, from Old French & Latin; Old French -iste, from Latin -ista, -istes, from Greek -istEs, from verbs in -izein -ize
1 a : one that performs a (specified) action <cyclist> : one that makes or produces a (specified) thing <novelist> b : one that plays a (specified) musical instrument <harpist> c : one that operates a (specified) mechanical instrument or contrivance <automobilist>
2 : one that specializes in a (specified) art or science or skill <geologist> <ventriloquist>
3 : one that adheres to or advocates a (specified) doctrine or system or code of behavior <socialist> <royalist> <hedonist> or that of a (specified) individual <Calvinist> <Darwinist>

Calvinist = He who follows the Doctrine of Calvin

JOHN  7 :16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.  

Are you sent of Calvin or Christ? Christ was sent of the Father and we are sent of Christ.

Kenneth White

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2003, 05:07:31 PM »

Calvinism = The distinct doctrine of Calvin

3 : one that adheres to or advocates a (specified) doctrine or system or code of behavior <socialist> <royalist> <hedonist> or that of a (specified) individual <Calvinist> <Darwinist>

Calvinist = He who follows the Doctrine of Calvin

Are you sent of Calvin or Christ? Christ was sent of the Father and we are sent of Christ.



Right on the button.

Excellent demonstration. Now who cannot understand that? It's so clear. But I'm sure that won't change any of the Calvinists minds anymore than anything anyone of us has said or will say. They are so blinded to this truth. I find it so disheartening that these people cannot understand these things which seem so clear and second nature. Even the unsaved understand this definition, but somehow Calvinists think everybody is wrong but them.
Proverbs 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

jd@

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2003, 10:56:07 PM »
Quote
No, they are not a necessity. They are no more a necessity than my saying I am supra-lapsarian is a necessity. To claim it's a necessary term is ridiculous and quite frankly, spurious at best.

You misunderstand me.  I meant that the beliefs were necessary, not the labels.


iGreg

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Re: Do You Call Yourself A Calvinist?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2003, 01:44:17 AM »
I am still a Christian first and foremost. I am also a Calvinist, a conservative, an American. It would absolutely be wrong for anyone to hold Calvin or anyone else, above Christ.

However, I ask again, would some of the anti-Calvinists please present evidence where Calvin is wrong in his understanding of scripture. I guess I should get with the aggressive tone here, and label as anti-Calvinists those critical of using Calvinist label as a means to debate theology. Are you folks more interested in criticizing theological labels or in discussing the truths of the Bible?

Also, I guess it would be wrong to call a church (putting the End of Church Age issue aside) anything but a Christian Church. For example, I guess it is wrong to call a church a Reformed Church, or a Bible Church etc.

This attack on John Calvin is starting to remind me of the Catholic Church's attack on Martin Luther and the dreaded Lutherans of the Reformation.

 


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