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Author Topic: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church  (Read 12501 times)

Anne

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2007, 09:24:14 AM »
>>>
What if Babylon in Revelation 17 and 18 is the nation of Israel, not the true Israel of God?
<<<

In answer to that I would say, what if the two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two specific Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mark and Jeff?

The point being, What If is never a legitimate retort or basis for belief, faith, interpretation or exegesis, unless accompanied by pertinent/relevant scriptures. Rather than "what if," we should say "this is why" I believe what I do. Or this is why I don't believe such and such.

I agree Tony. When I disagree with someone's interpretation I say "This is why", or "this is why not". But "what if" does nothing but speculate, which is never a legitimate way to come to truth. What if Elephants had wings? Well, we'd have winged elephants. But how does that help me understand Elephants? From reading a lot of what these new comers post, it seems to be mostly scripture out of context or speculation, personal opinion and unsupported doctrines. I hope that we can get back to a more biblically rounded forum.

As for old testament Jerusalem being the whore babylon, I can't think of a more un-thought out idea.

 Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Anne

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2007, 09:42:41 AM »
The home page of this web site seems to lead others to believe that this is a site teaching on the Eschatological view of Historical Amillenialism.  Now, Amillenialism may be what is believed (meaning - Rev. ch. 20's 1,000 reign is not literal but symbolic of a long period of time, and Christ's Kingdom has come, not will come in the future).  However, the teachings here are not from a Historical (Historicist) view.  The Historical view would line up with the Reformer's teaching.

I doubt that very seriously. First, the false doctrine of Historicism is often more in line with 7th day adventists and Premillennialism than historic Amillennialism. Let no one mistake the different flavors of Historicism with Amillennialism. Or be put off by the disdainful label, futurist. Go to any historicist website and check these people out yourself. You will find their eschatological doctrine hardly biblical.

Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2007, 04:14:26 PM »
Greetings Anne,

You said:  "When I disagree with someone's interpretation I say "This is why", or "this is why not"."

Then you also said:  "As for old testament Jerusalem being the whore babylon, I can't think of a more un-thought out idea."

You forgot to say "why" or "why not" when telling us that OT Jerusalem being the whore Babylon in an "un-thought out idea."  Posting Rev 17:15-18 does not help me understand your reasoning.  Could you please elaborate? 

Many Blessings,
Sandy

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2007, 08:33:55 PM »
Okay,

I'm going to need some help, not on what to answer, but HOW to answer.  Example given as in the scenario of "what if"?

I just want to offer any response according to what is expected on this site.

Perception.

In Ex. 12:48, "And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it: AND HE SHALL BE AS ONE THAT IS BORN IN THE LAND..."

Am I to clearly understand that in the covenant provision that God entered into with Abraham, that only the Jew had access of relationship to God?  Yet this verse shows that ANYONE of ANY other nation (Gentile)...COULD BECOME...as one that was...born in the land (Israel/Jew).

So we see that Israel was the sole source for all mankind (..waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues), for covenant relationship with God.

This provision would permit Israel to exercise dominion over all the Gentile nations, by virtue of being entrusted with the oracles of God (Rm. 3:2).

That is the relationship the whore has upon the waters.

She also would be drunk with the blood of the saints AND the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

She was apostate and therefore committed fornication with the kings of the Earth. 

Exactly the opposite of (2 Cor. 11:2), "...for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to
Christ, and (Rev. 14:4), "For these are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins".

Perspective of these events as they relate to the opening statement of:  THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

Dan       

Tony Warren

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2007, 09:31:01 AM »
>>>
I just want to offer any response according to what is expected on this site.
<<<

Then you will be one of the few.  Thanks!


Quote
>>>
Yet this verse shows that ANYONE of ANY other nation (Gentile)...COULD BECOME...as one that was...born in the land (Israel/Jew).
<<<

Sure. A forerunner of the later explained truth that God is "no respector of persons."  Something that is difficult for some people to understand.


Quote
>>>
So we see that Israel was the sole source for all mankind
<<<

The only Israel that is the sole source for all mankind is Christ, The true Israel of God. The nation Israel was merely the earthly representation of the children of God. Which is why Gentiles could become a part of them. i.e., they could become part of those representing the body of Christ. The nation was not the source, it was the vehicle.


Quote
>>>
This provision would permit Israel to exercise dominion over all the Gentile nations, by virtue of being entrusted with the oracles of God (Rm. 3:2).

That is the relationship the whore has upon the waters.
<<<

 
Revelation 17:2
  • "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
Revelation 17:18
  • "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."
The only woman that reigns over the kings of the earth, and that becomes a whore to fornicate "WITH THEM" is the corporate church. A church that has fallen and spiritually become as Sodom and Egypt "because" she has compromised herself with the rulers (kings) of the world. In the Biblical vernacular, she has left her husband God, and gone whoring with the world.

The two witnesses of Revelation 17 are eventually killed by this whore (most certainly not the nation Israel) and they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem (representing the church). First, we notice that the two witnesses are in the church. Second, that the Jerusalem in view is not the nation Israel, but the place (church) where the two Witnesses dwell (church). Third, the rejoicing in the streets of this city Jerusalem is not the city in the middle east, but in the whore Babylon, which is again this unfaithful church.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2007, 05:15:22 PM »
Quote
The two witnesses of Revelation 17 are eventually killed by this whore (most certainly not the nation Israel) and they lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem (representing the church)

Tony,

Two Witnesses of Revelation 17?  Did you mean Revelation 11?  They were killed by the whore?  Do you see the whore of Revelation 17 and beast of Revelation 11 the same? Eg. the beast with two horns like a lamb, Revelation 13? 

Thanks in advance for clarification.

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2007, 06:41:14 PM »
Hello,

Real quick, I was putting together a response and all of sudden I got "zapped".  All the info I was putting together was gone!

I don't know if it is going to show up some time or that it's lost somewhere in cyberspace.

Anyway, should an "incomplete" response show up, blame it on the "glitch".

Take care

Dan

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2007, 09:14:30 PM »
Tony,

I'm going to give this another try!

Thanks for the input, for the encouragement.

Thanks also for the correction.  I am agreeable to the term "vehicle" rather than "source".

However, even though your terminology is better, I believe we are on the same page.

I meant "source" to mean as the "place/process" where the answer could be found.  That is why Israel was forbidden to erect anything similar to the Temple. 

In "source" I meant it to be all inclusive of the provisions supplied Israel by God.  Yes, the complete "package" of atonement was to be found in Israel and their covenant relationship with God.

Yes, they were the fore runner of the "Church", those that were entrusted with the provisions of God.

Paul clearly speaks of the "types and shadows".  God did not present anything to OT Israel that would become "extinct" with the advent of Christ.  Rather those things given were "steeped" in MYSTERY (another title given her) until the revelation of Jesus Christ occurred.

The fulfillment, the completion of things in part, that were formerly hidden.

I am still back to the first verse of:  The revelation of Jesus Christ.

So I want these events that are recorded to be representative of: What, why, where and how they come about through the work, the ministry, the victory of Jesus Christ.

So even as in Mat. 21:41, "...He will miserably destroy those wicked men and will let out his vineyard to others, which will render him the fruits in their seasons", Christ speaks directly to the destruction of apostate Israel.

He speaks it in unison with the presenting of it to "others".  Same time frame.  This is how it refers to the "timeline" of his advent and his completed work on Calvary.

In Rev. 18:17, "For in ONE HOUR such riches have come to nothing..."

Christ speaks of similar time constraints in Matt. 24:27, "As the lightning comes out of the East and shines to the West", suddenly, without warning, in a moment, in an instant of time.

I know, I know, you'll say "context, context".

My point exactly.

Not only in Matt. but also in Luke Christ gives us Noah and Lot as examples.  When did it occur for them?  Suddenly!  In a moments notice!  Just as lightning would shine from one part of the sky to the other.

Yet what was the point Christ was stressing in using these two examples?  Why Lot and Noah?

Christ was speaking on the "judgment" of God.  Even as judgment came to the days of Noah and Lot, judgment was surely coming to Israel.  That in a moments' notice, without a hint of warning that she was on the verge, no different than yesterday had been, judgment was surely going to arrive.

So, for me, I don't see Babylon as being connected to the present day church.  Could be, but I just don't see it.
 
The completed work of Christ ushered in those events.

Thanks again for everything,

Watching prayerfully for the coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Daniel927 

   

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2007, 09:21:39 PM »
Tony,

I meant to include this on the last response, but naturally forgot.

I am only able to access your site, through the e-mail that I received from you for confirmation.  All I can get is the "log-in" screen repeating itself, not permitting me to "log-in".  I can't get past it to any of the sites.

Can you help?

Bless,

Dan

camter

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2007, 09:59:25 PM »
Greetings Erik and the others participating in this discussion,

I do not agree with Erik regarding his idea that the Harlot represents the only unfaithful within the Church or Sandy’s preterist concept relating the Harlot only to 70 AD Jerusalem. 

I can certainly understand the thematic undertones present that suggest a typology pointing to the Old Covenant but I think we avoid the obvious when we do not seek to understand specifically why God chose the term “great Babylon”.

Most of us are aware of the relationship to ancient Babylon (Daniel 4:30) and perhaps even how “great” Euphrates” relates to “great” Babylon historically through that “Thief in the night”, Cyrus (God’s shepherd in Isaiah 44:28-45:1). But even these relationships don’t completely explain the identity.

Babylon was apparently built upon the ancient site of the Tower of Babel.
Whether it was exactly built there is not as important as intentions of the founders to build upon the location of the ancient tower that represents man’s unified rebellion against God.

In my way of thinking exegetically while prayerfully seeking the spiritual meaning, the present era of mankind is defined by the Flood and will close at the next global judgment, which naturally depending on your eschatology leads to the Millennium (Pre-Millennial), or to the eternal state (Amillennial and Post-Millennial). Therefore, we do not need to speak specifically about pre-Flood people, although we cannot categorically exclude them either. The point is, we should not find a need to reference them specifically on this topic of who the Harlot killed.

The identity of “great” Babylon, the Harlot is tied into post-Flood events and locales. The first act of mankind after the Flood was to defy God at the Tower of Babel. Thus thematically, “mankind in rebellion to God” is as Babel or Babylon in the greater sense.  It could be individuals, the unfaithful in the church or world empires in succession.

The last act of mankind during the final apostasy (except for Post-Millennialists who believe we hand over the mostly saved world to Christ) will be another “tower of Babel”, also known as “great” Babylon, the idolatrous harlot that has been diverting true worship from God and killing the sanctified ones who give true worship to God. So one could say, as I do, that the Tower of Babel represents the bookends of this era of mankind.

IOW, specifically, the Harlot is responsible for every death of any person who sought to worship God in spirit and truth in the post-Flood era and secondarily since the Fall. After all, the Harlot is the contrast to the Bride. The Bride represents the sum total of the righteous and the Harlot the sum total of the wicked and the respective cities, systems and societies these people spawn.

Unfaithfulness does not suggest that the “Harlot” was once married to God. It simply means unfaithfulness in the true sense that created man should worship His Creator. (Rev. 14:7-8 and surrounding) It could apply to apostate Judah of 70 AD or 1970 AD.

Those who do not worship God in sprit and truth are the Harlot until they worship God in Spirit and truth thus becoming identified with the Bride.



(PS I concur with Tony Warren’s comments specifically regarding Josephus as not being a prophet and preterists rely to heavily upon him as a source.)

Heb 12:1  Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2007, 03:54:18 PM »
Greetings,

Reply #39  “Sandy’s preterist concept relating the Harlot only to 70 AD Jerusalem.”

I don’t believe that I’ve formulated a strictly preterist position at all.  My Reply #16:  “The vision of the fall of Babylon in Rev 17 & 18 is much like the prophesy Christ spoke to His disciples. Just as His prophesy includes events that take place in the near future of the disciples, also much of His prophetic words will be fulfilled throughout the NT church era, and the end of time. What we see in Rev 17 & 18 is a description of the literal destruction of Jerusalem, but also sure promise that every abominable harlot in the world, everyone who is owned by Satan will meet with the same wrath. The literal destruction of Jerusalem symbolizes the destruction that will come upon all the unsaved of the earth whether they be in an apostate church, a faithful church, or in the world. Just as the NT disciples were warned by Christ to flee to the mountains when they see Judea surrounded by the armies, so they heeded the warning to “come out of her my people” so too Christians are warned to flee from harlotry, and abomination wherever it may be found. We are constantly reminded in Scripture to be wise, and keep ourselves pure, and undefiled by the pollutions of the world all around us.”

If this is a preterist perspective how does it differ from the following assertions?         

Reply #39  “Thus thematically, “mankind in rebellion to God” is as Babel or Babylon in the greater sense. It could be individuals, the unfaithful in the church or world empires in succession.”

Reply #39  “The last act of mankind during the final apostasy (except for Post-Millennialists who believe we hand over the mostly saved world to Christ) will be another “tower of Babel”, also known as “great” Babylon, the idolatrous harlot that has been diverting true worship from God and killing the sanctified ones who give true worship to God. So one could say, as I do, that the Tower of Babel represents the bookends of this era of mankind.”

Reply #39  “It could apply to apostate Judah of 70 AD or 1970 AD.”

Reply #39  “Those who do not worship God in sprit and truth are the Harlot until they worship God in Spirit and truth thus becoming identified with the Bride.”

It isn’t necessary to rely on Josephus as being a prophet of God.  These truths are defined through Scripture.  I concur with the following statement, most pointedly that the church in time is not a picture of Babylon.  I would add that history shows many so-called churches can become Babylonish in character and purpose, thereby assuring they too will come under the wrath of Almighty God.       

From Reply #37:  “Yet what was the point Christ was stressing in using these two examples? Why Lot and Noah?  Christ was speaking on the "judgment" of God. Even as judgment came to the days of Noah and Lot, judgment was surely coming to Israel. That in a moments' notice, without a hint of warning that she was on the verge, no different than yesterday had been, judgment was surely going to arrive.  So, for me, I don't see Babylon as being connected to the present day church. Could be, but I just don't see it.  The completed work of Christ ushered in those events.”

Many Blessings,
Sandy

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2007, 06:07:54 PM »
Hello one and all, 

I thought I should take just a minute or two of your time, to let you know why I have "misgivings" concerning Babylon relating to the present day (since Christ) "church".

When I spoke earlier of Israel being the "sole source", and was informed that the more correct designation should be "vehicle" (AND it should be), I attempted to explain what it was that I meant by the term.  Going over my earlier response I think I was able to do that.

Now..............

The difference that I see between Babylon - Pre and Post Christ (if she is also "post") is this:

Mat. 23:2-4, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: So observe and practice all that they tell you..."; Lk. 11:, "Woe to you lawyers, for you load men with heavy burdens hard to bear, and you do not ease those burdens with one of your fingers".

I see the "position" of the Jewish system of worship to God - as the only "vehicle" that was available for man to be able to "come" through to God.  I also see it, as pronounced by Christ himself, as fully and completely corrupted (soon to be destroyed).

This would certainly be the situation, prior to the work on Calvary.

Now..........

Lk. 17:21, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold the kingdom of God is within you".  So, the true worshipper now serves God in spirit and truth, no longer needing the Temple (or that system) as the "vehicle" to God.

This is merely an illustration.......I am NOT advocating this,.............not by any means, so please do not think I have gone off the "deep end".

Knowing that God indwells (Holy Spirit) in each and every true believer, it is a relationship that cannot be "faked".  This is because God searches every mans' heart and determines if he is one of His own.  (not this part).

Say that there are a certain amount of believers, God knows, what happens if one of those believers decides to forsake God?  You have to imagine "broken relationship" (I am not looking to get distracted on the "once/always saved" debate, so please let's not go there).

As an "unbeliever" (non-believer, should I say "sinner?"), does this person have an adverse effect on the believer, who is still worshipping God?  I can't see why they would.

Now multiply this same situation to 50% of all believers "falling", again, does it adversely affect those who remain true to God?  I still think "no".

Those who remain true to God, are his people, they are the church, the true worshippers.

Continue to carry the scenario out, and regardless of how "many" forsake God and return to the "world", Gods' people, where his Holy Spirit dwells, is completely unaffected, even as the "true" believer is unaffected.

So today's church, established by the work of Christ, can never become "apostate", as Babylon apparently is.  If there are those who "walk away", even as Paul noted in his day, they merely "fall away"----out of the church-----out of the body of Christ.

There can be none that is impure in the body of Christ.  To belong to the body of Christ, we have to be purchased by him, in relationship with him.

I'm not saying there are not "fakers" who make out as if they do belong to Christ, the only person that they are "fooling" is themself.  They can do nothing however to "withstand" the true believer in their relationship with God.  This is the pronouncement against Babylon.

This is why I have difficulty relating Babylon to "include" the present day Church.  I'm not saying that I am correct, not by any stretch, but I am saying this is why I struggle with that perception.

So, I hope that I have expressed that well enough that some might "enlighten" me as to where I am missing the "point, or correlation".

Thanks so very much,

God bless you all on that end,

Dan   

Pamela

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2007, 01:36:25 AM »
Hi Daniel927,

You know what the real church is right?  The True Israel of God.  It is the true believers, the elect.  What I believe you fail to realize though, is that "Babylon" is not only the true believers, but the "professing" ones too.  This is your "local" church.  Do you believe that there are only saved people in the local church?  Of course you don't.  So the effect will be on the "visible" or "local" churches as a whole.  I think that is where you are getting confused.  It was the same with the nation of Israel.  Not all were the true Israel of God.  The church has become the whore, because she has fallen into sin.  Can't you see this already at work in the churches today? 

God bless,
Pam





Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2007, 06:55:24 PM »
Pam,

Thanks so much for your response.  Obviously you can see that I do have an "issue" with Babylon also being represented as the NT "church".  Thanks for attempting to shed some light on it for me.

You are correct, I know that there are "professors" found in the present day church.  There have been ever since, Acts 5:1.

Just because they attend a "physical structure" and join us, that they are present in our "midst", however, does not "qualify" them as being part of the "spiritual" NT church.  That status is ONLY obtained through the experience that brings us to the "foot of the cross".

So, the question I ask is, "Knowing that they DO NOT belong to the church, but are excluded from being a part due to the "condition" of their eternal being, How can they possiblly "add" a condition of "unfaithful" to the NT church?"

That's my point.  They can't!  They can be caught up in all their whoredoms, it cannot adversely "reflect" on the NT church.  The unbeliever, the ungodly, the unregenerate - DO NOT belong to the NT church.

This is why I feel the pronouncement against Babylon, is confined or restricted to OT Israel.

Maybe the good Lord needs to "open" my eyes, but for sure I can't see it applying to the NT church.

Give it some thought and tell me "how" it can apply.

Thanks again,

In the tender mercies of Christ,

Dan   

dsouzaanthony

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2007, 05:04:42 AM »
Jesus was crucified around 33 A.D. Wars began between the Jews and the Romans in around 67 A.D. The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. Jerusalem was left desolate by 73 A.D. From 67 A.D. to 73 A.D. you have your 70th Week of Daniel. In the midst of the week, the temple was destroyed and therefore the sacrifices and the oblations ceased. The consummation that was determined was poured out on Jerusalem until it was desolate. (Daniel 9:27). These are not the words of Josephus; check out any history source other than his and you will find this to be truth. Other "tools" are not above the Word of God, but they can aid us in understanding what has already been fulfilled. Your spirit will bear witness to what the Holy Spirit is teaching you; even if it is through a history book. After all, God even spoke through a donkey, so why not through recorded events that have occured in the past. Just because we were not there to be eyewitnesses, does not mean events did not take place. Are we only living in the present and only believe what we witness with our own eyes and nothing in the past is believable or trustworthy? We live in a day and age where we have access to "tools" and knowledge that aids us in our studying of the Word of God. Not above the Word because the Word is the final authority!


I think referring to history books written by men in order to interprete God's Word is absolutely wrong. God's Word is spiritual and man's writing is always carnal.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God
.

No man can help us to understand God's Word, except by the Holy Spirit:

Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The natural man does not understand the things of God:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The only way we can understand God's Word is by comparing scripture with scripture (not forgetting it is the Holy Spirit who teaches):

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Scriptures are sufficient for our guidance:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Any other interpretation based on historical books written by men is to be rejected. 


DSOUZAANTHONY

 


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