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Author Topic: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church  (Read 12502 times)

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 05:20:07 PM »
Quote
And where in the NT do we find the universal church referred to as an abomination of the earth?  There aren’t even any verses that show the universal church is ever called an abomination unto God.  Not even the dead church in Sardis (Rev 3:1), yet we find in the OT many such references to abomination being committed in Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

The woman is drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.  This is why Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees (Jews) that they, not the universal church are responsible for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.  Does it sound like Christ is speaking of the universal church here?
 

Oh, really?  Before I response, tell me Sandy, do you believe that the prophecy about Babylon the Great of Revelation 18 is only apply to Old Testament Israel?  How did she fell for ONE HOUR?  Who were the ten horns upon the beast that attack whore at the end of old testament era?  How did they rule with Beast for one hour after they never had a kingdom?  If you believe that Babylon fell before NT church started, then what happens?  There is no Babylon the Great in the New Testament and she won't be judged by God right before Second Coming of Christ?

I am waiting to hear that.

Peace,
Erik



"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2007, 09:44:16 PM »
Greetings Erik,

If you were arguing that the apostate church is depicted in Scripture as Babylon like, or abominable unto God, then there would be some truth to what you say.  But this is not your argument.  Your argument is that every church in the world becomes literally Babylon, and therefore every church in the world comes under the wrath of God.  This is what you cannot prove through Scripture. 

On the other hand there are so many verses showing us similarity between Babylon and Jerusalem that the only way one would not accept the two are one and the same is to deny the ABUNDANCE of Scriptural proof. 

CHRIST SAYS THE JEWS REPRESENTATIVES OF JERUSALEM ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MURDERING ALL THE RIGHTEOUS OF THE EARTH.

Mt 23:34  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Lu 11:49  Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Lu 11:50  That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Lu 11:51  From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

CHRIST TELLS US THAT BABYLON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF ALL THE RIGHTEOUS UPON THE EARTH.

Re 16:6  For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 

Re 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Re 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Re 19:2  For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

JERUSALEM IS CALLED A GREAT CITY.

Re 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jer 22:8  And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city?

La 1:1  How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

BABYLON IS CALLED A GREAT CITY.

Re 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Re 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Re 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Re 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Re 18:16  And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Re 18:19  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate
Re 18:21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

JERUSALEM IS MADE DESOLATE.

Mt 23:38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mt 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Lu 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Lu 21:21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Lu 21:22  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Lu 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Lu 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Isa 64:10  Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

La 5:18  Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.

Eze 12:19  And say unto the people of the land, Thus saith the Lord GOD of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and of the land of Israel; They shall eat their bread with carefulness, and drink their water with astonishment, that her land may be desolate from all that is therein, because of the violence of all them that dwell therein.

Da 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Da 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Da 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BABYLON IS MADE DESOLATE.

Re 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Re 18:19  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

We can’t look at Rev 17 & 18 in chronological order.  If we do that then we would have to wonder how Babylon can even exist in 17 & 18 since there is no more history after chapter 16.  In chapter 16 all the vials have been poured out, there has been the battle of antichrist with Gog and Magog in Armageddon, and great Babylon has been in the winepress of the wrath of God.  Shall we also look at the wrath of God toward Babylon in Rev 16 as the end of time?  Babylon is no more?  Very obviously we cannot view chapters 17 & 18 chronologically.   Both of these chapters are simply giving more detail for something that has already happened.  Much like we find in Genesis 1 & 2.

We find Jerusalem described as Babylonian in character (Sodom and Egypt) in Rev 11 where she persecutes the witnesses of Jesus.  Again, we read of her fall in Rev 14:8  “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

The vision of the fall of Babylon in Rev 17 & 18 is much like the prophesy Christ spoke to His disciples.  Just as His prophesy includes events that take place in the near future of the disciples, also much of His prophetic words will be fulfilled throughout the NT church era, and the end of time.  What we see in Rev 17 & 18 is a description of the literal destruction of Jerusalem, but also sure promise that every abominable harlot in the world, everyone who is owned by Satan will meet with the same wrath.  The literal destruction of Jerusalem symbolizes the destruction that will come upon all the unsaved of the earth whether they be in an apostate church, a faithful church, or in the world.  Just as the NT disciples were warned by Christ to flee to the mountains when they see Judea surrounded by the armies, so they heeded the warning to “come out of her my people” so too Christians are warned to flee from harlotry, and abomination wherever it may be found.  We are constantly reminded in Scripture to be wise, and keep ourselves pure, and undefiled by the pollutions of the world all around us.

1Jo 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jas 3:17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Babylon doesn’t fall FOR one hour, she falls IN one hour.  This is symbolic, describing the literal fall of Jerusalem as coming very quickly.  So too at the end of time the wrath of God will be poured out quickly upon the earth. 

Ro 9:28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

It’s very obvious that God used the Roman Empire to bring Jerusalem to ruin, but even though Rome ruled, and had authority over Jerusalem, still Jerusalem had her vassal kings.

No doubt there are, and always have been counterfeit churches in the world.  These commit harlotry and are an abomination unto God.  These will experience the same wrath of God we see literally poured out upon Jerusalem.  But these do not represent all churches in the world, and never will.  Ezekiel gives us a picture of a biblical harlot. 

Eze 16:8  Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
Eze 16:9  Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
Eze 16:10  I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
Eze 16:11  I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
Eze 16:12  And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
Eze 16:13  Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
Eze 16:14  And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 16:15  But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Eze 16:16  And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
Eze 16:17  Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
Eze 16:18  And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.
Eze 16:19  My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 16:20  Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
Eze 16:21  That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
Eze 16:22  And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

Surely these words give us a detailed description of the harlot church, the false church, the counterfeit church.  That doesn’t surprise us.  The devil establishes a counterfeit kingdom, so naturally he would establish a counterfeit church.  This is a picture of Babylon, the great whore through God’s chosen people who have turned to harlotry, and those under the power and authority of the devil.  But this is most assuredly NOT a description of the faithful church, or faithful believers in the world.  Satan doesn’t stop at only a counterfeit church, he uses every institution God has placed on earth for his own evil purposes.  So why single out even the apostate church to call Babylon the great whore when Satan in truth is the ruler of the whole unsaved world?  The great whore commits fornication with all that dwell in the world. 

Re 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 

Re 17:12  And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The seven heads show that the beast has total power or authority, and the ten shows the fullness of time the beast is given this authority to rule.

Many Blessings,
Sandy   

Reformer

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2007, 11:01:35 PM »

On the other hand there are so many verses showing us similarity between Babylon and Jerusalem that the only way one would not accept the two are one and the same is to deny the ABUNDANCE of Scriptural proof. 


  The Church is the Jerusalem of the New Testament! The Judah and the Israel too!

Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2007, 11:36:43 AM »

On the other hand there are so many verses showing us similarity between Babylon and Jerusalem that the only way one would not accept the two are one and the same is to deny the ABUNDANCE of Scriptural proof. 


  The Church is the Jerusalem of the New Testament! The Judah and the Israel too!


No, Jerusalem represents the great whore, Babylon, also Judah, and Israel.

Reformer

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2007, 01:33:28 PM »
No, Jerusalem represents the great whore, Babylon, also Judah, and Israel.

 I see O' Learned one! Israel and Jerusalem is the whore babylon?

 Isa 44:26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
 27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
 28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

So the whore turned from her whoredom and Christ has built up this whore?

You are so confused Sandy! Christ doesn't build up a whore, so the Jerusalem that he builds up is not the whore, is she? It's the church, and the Temple is the one built with the foundation stone that the original people rejected.

Do you ever, ever, ever, ever harmonize scripture? Let it interpret itself? Or do you always speak without study?


Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2007, 08:31:55 PM »
No, Jerusalem represents the great whore, Babylon, also Judah, and Israel.
 
You are so confused Sandy! Christ doesn't build up a whore, so the Jerusalem that he builds up is not the whore, is she? It's the Church, and the Temple built with the foundation stone that the original people rejected.


Help me understand what your saying here.  Christ doesn't build up a whore, so Jerusalem can't be the whore?  So, the church, which Christ builds up is the whore?  Hmmmm

Elect Lady

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2007, 10:18:32 PM »
No, Jerusalem represents the great whore, Babylon, also Judah, and Israel.
 
You are so confused Sandy! Christ doesn't build up a whore, so the Jerusalem that he builds up is not the whore, is she?  It's the Church, and the Temple built with the foundation stone that the original people rejected.


Help me understand what your saying here.  Christ doesn't build up a whore, so Jerusalem can't be the whore?  So, the church, which Christ builds up is the whore?  Hmmmm

Hi Sandy,

You got it scripturally correct!

Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth, the woman drunken with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Revelation 17:5,6), is the "great city" which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucifed (Revelation 11:8), "the city" where our Lord was crucified and killed the prophets was, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...(Matthew 23:37).

Elect Lady,
Our Lord Jesus Christ,  is the blessed and only Potente, the King of Kings, and Lord of lords...

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom "no man" HATH SEEN, NOR CAN SEE:
to whom be honour and power everlasting. A'men. 1 Timothy 6:16

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2007, 04:41:59 PM »
WOW,

I'm new and I thought this would be as good a place as any to get my head handed to me!  HA!

I thought Christ indicated that "ALL" the righteous blood would come upon them (Mat. 23)..from RIGHTEOUS ABEL....

So, even though there was only Cain and Abel, how is it "they" get judged for it?

Could it have something to do with the "ungodly" persecuting/killing the righteous from the very beginning?

Something that was established with the "fall" of mankind?

So is it that all this aligns with the realms of good vs. evil, from the beginning to the end?

Just thought I would ask...........

Really good comments,

Bless,

Dan

Tony Warren

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2007, 05:05:09 PM »
>>>
WOW,

I'm new and I thought this would be as good a place as any to get my head handed to me!  HA!

I thought Christ indicated that "ALL" the righteous blood would come upon them (Mat. 23)..from RIGHTEOUS ABEL....
<<<

Dan,
 Flattery will get you nowhere.  Are you implying that Babylon is a pseudonym for the Kingdom of Satan, which is a very very common belief. Particularly among reformed theologians. If not, could you enlighten us on just what it is you are implying? Guessing just tends to take way too long. By all means, elucidate.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2007, 05:28:37 PM »
Tony,

Thanks for "pegging" me, right off the bat! 

I had seen give and take on "whom" she would be in earlier posts and the thing that puzzled me was that Babylon was being depicted as a "form" of the church.  Untrue believers.  Pretenders. 

But the thing that struck me was: If you're not a believer, then the only other option is to be lost.  While some may "play" with their eternal status, they are none the less lost.

So these that are portrayed as Bablylon, in defiance to obedience of God, are ungodly.

I want to say that the kingdom of Satan is certainly the overarching authority (Prince of the power of the air), over these "entities" (Babylon), regardless of how small or great a part they may play.  While playing a specific role, Babylon in no less the enemy of God and all his saints.

I probably dug myself in deep enough that someone will have to "pump" sunshine into me.

I've tried to be as unclear as possible.

Thanks for the response,

Dan

Tony Warren

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2007, 06:50:58 PM »
>>>
Tony,

Thanks for "pegging" me, right off the bat! 
<<<

You're certainly welcome!

  The "implication" being, you really have no idea who/what Babylon the great, fallen, is?


Quote
>>>
I probably dug myself in deep enough that someone will have to "pump" sunshine into me.

I've tried to be as unclear as possible.
<<<

Indeed you have, of that you have spoken truthfully. You've succeeded.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2007, 02:07:15 AM »
Quote
I've tried to be as unclear as possible.

Daniel, you have posted 7 messages for almost every topics within 2 hours between the time you registered today and the time of your last activity here. It seemed to me that you really have not take your time reading all the messages posted and think/study with your Scripture for a moment.  I suggest that you take your time reading the studies provided by Tony Warren on his Mountain Retreat website. Please do not jump around on the forum and tell us what you think with little or no Scripture backing. 

Oh, by the way, welcome to the forum.

Erik

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Tony Warren

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2007, 09:12:51 AM »
>>>
What if Babylon in Revelation 17 and 18 is the nation of Israel, not the true Israel of God?
<<<

In answer to that I would say, what if the two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two specific Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mark and Jeff?

The point being, What If is never a legitimate retort or basis for belief, faith, interpretation or exegesis, unless accompanied by pertinent/relevant scriptures. Rather than "what if," we should say "this is why" I believe what I do. Or this is why I don't believe such and such.


Quote
>>>
What if Revelation 17 and 18 are describing the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.?
<<<

How would we know that except we trust what the reprobate Josephus decalred occurred as biblical fact. But in what chapter of scripture does it say that interpretations belong to unbelieving historians like Josephus? It doesn't say that anywhere because Josephus is not the Lord's prophet to bear witness to or confirm God's word. In fact, he was not even a Christian. Why would anyone use his word to confirm God's word?

Hebrews 1:1-2
  • "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
  • Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

We need no proven unreliable witness to tell us what God means in His word, God's people have never needed that. We have the the Lord's prophets who teach from instruction in the word of God, and the infallible teacher (the Holy Spirit). "No batteries or Josephus Required!" God's word needs no secular confirmation today, the Spirit of Christ enlightening us to compare His word with His word is all the confirmation that we need. His holy word "ALONE" is sufficient to the task of interpretation. Because once you start bringing in historians from outside the camp, with extrabiblical interpretations, you bring in fallibility!

Genesis 41:15-16
  • "And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it.
  • And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace."

Interpretations belong to the word of God, not the words of Josephus.
 

Quote
>>>
These verses were spoken to the Jewish religious leaders (the scribes and Pharisees) and told that "Verily I say unto you, This generation (40 years) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matthew 24:34)
<<<

Who told you that a generation was 40 years? You mean that a single 40 year "generation of evil" was responsible for all the blood shed from Abel to Zechariah? After that generation passed, was the slate clean and there no more generation of evil responsible for shedding the blood of God's prophets? That is the untenable conclusion we would have to come to if we understood this generation as you suppose we should. But that is an unbiblical conclusion. Rather, we should define a generation by scripture and let God tell us what generation He was referring to. Was it not the generation (family or children) of evil, who shall not pass away from this earth until all is fulfilled? That generation in contrast to the chosen and holy generation whom God has called out of darkness into His marvellous light (1st Peter 2:9)? Again, only if we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and not Josephus, church tradition or the vaunted authors.


Quote
>>>
Was God's judment poured out on the nation of Israel until 1948 when it became a nation again and Jews have been flocking back to their homeland?
<<<

In a word, ...No! That's the spin of the false prophets, but common/biblical sense precludes that a nation more opposed to Christ than ever would be favored and blessed of God in 1948, when they were blinded for the exact same thing. How Christians could possibly think that a nation that is as anti-Christ today as they ever were, could have somehow gotten right with God that his judgment was asswaged is the stuff of TV dramas, novels and the fables of men. Never again will the nation of Israel not have God's judgment rest upon it. It is perpetual! The Kingdom was taken from them and shall never be returned. The unpalatable truth is, Israel is the Fig Tree that was cursed, and Israel the nation will never again become the Children of God, out from under His judgment.

Matthew 21:19
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Matthew 21:42-44
  • "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  • And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

A blessed Kingdom produces fruit my friend.


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Not that God has any big plans for the nation of Israel in the future, in fact there are none from scripture. He is done with the Jews as a nation.
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But if He is done with Israel as a nation, why do people claim He blessed them by establishing them again as the nation Israel in 1948? It makes no sense. You claim the Jews are flocking back to their homeland, while I retort and witness that the Jews have been flocking back to their homeland for the last 2000 years. It's a Spiritual restoration, a Spiritual Jew, a Spiritual Jerusalem they reign in and a Spiritual Israel that god has brought peace to. Russia, Israel, Iraq, have nothing to do with Prophesy, except as the delusion used to deceive professed Christians into Dispensational-like beliefs. But you've said one thing right. "There is NONE from scripture!" Which begs the question, where then does all these ideas come from. Answer: They are extra-biblical. They are from outside of scripture, the imaginations of men. Just like the writings of Josephus used to (allegedly) confirm God's word.


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Why so much symbolism and spiritualizing of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, and Luke 21?
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John 2:19
  • "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

We could ask the same question of Christ. Why all the spiritualizing? Why throw the buyers and sellers out of the literal Temple, and then when people ask Him who gave you this authority, declare cryptically that He was the Temple that would be destroyed in three days? ...Why? Because it's not for everyone to discern, it's for those who have the Spirit of truth and the mind of Christ. In other words, for those who are spiritually minded, and not preoccupied with the physical, or the flesh or the carnal nations, desires and hopes. There is man's wisdom, and then there is Spiritual wisdom, where things are Spiritually discerned.

1st Corinthians 2:11-14
  • "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
  • Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
  • Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
  • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Why so much symbolism and spiritualizing? Because God's word is full of parables, symbolism, allegories and spiritualizing. Nothing more sinister than that. Christ spoke in parables because it was only for those who God enlightened to spiritually discern truth. I don't ask God why so much spiritualizing as you do, I embrace His methodology and receive His truths and am blessed by the hidden treasures. ...to "His" glory!

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
Romans 8:6-8
  • "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
  • Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
  • So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
1st Corinthians 2:14-16
  • "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
  • But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
  • For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
Revelation 11:8
  • "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Not that I expect all professing Christians to "GET IT," anymore than Christ expected all who heard Him speak in parables to understand it. Because as difficult as it may be to swallow, it's not for everyone to get. It's not palatable to all, it's not something everyone even "wants" to swallow. By Grace of God, His word of prophesy is like honey to the taste, and yet it leaves the belly bitter.


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Why can't these chapters on eschatology be literal?
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Matthew 24:21-22
  • "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
  • And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

It is a stretch, even for Praeterists/Preterists to claim that 70 AD was the worst time in the history of mankind for God's people, the Christians (since that is who Christ is talking about), those persecuted for His namesake. It was not so bad that if God hadn't intervened, no flesh on earth would have been saved. Unless you are proposing that all the Christians in the earth were at Jerusalem in AD 70? ...or if you are proposing (gasp) that God is actually talking about the Jewish populace who hated and rejected Christ. ...that certainly wouldn't fit.


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Why can't these events have already taken place by 70 A.D. and not be events that will take place in the future?
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Because scripture interprets scripture, that's why. Not Josephus, God's word is the interpreter of God's word, and assumption is the mother of errors.

Matthew 24:26-29
  • "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
  • For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
  • For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
  • Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"/li]
Do we take that literally. Did Christ return in AD 70? Did Immediately after the great tribulation of for believers in those days, Christ came on the clouds of Glory with his saints? Answer your own question. The answer is, "THIS" is why these events didn't literally take place in AD 70. Because it would make a mockery out of scripture.

nosce te ipsum"
 
Peace,
Tony Warren
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Daniel927

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2007, 07:47:42 PM »
Tony,

The challenge often times is, when entering the middle of an "on-going" debate, exactly which point to begin with.

I thank you first, for you response to my initial post, it was very kind of you.

Like others on this site, I do have some give and take on who Babylon is.

However, in my attempts to understand various events in Rev., I am inclined to think that what all John was given to see involved events past, present and future.

The proper alignment of these events, with the correct tense, or time frame, is paramount to understanding correctly what was being portrayed to John.

This is the starting point for me:  THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST

While the verses do not specifically "name" who Babylon is, they go to quite an extent in giving details and characteristics involving her.

In 18:23 (for instance), "...the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee".

There is only one bridegroom, that is Jesus Christ.  It "speaks" of his voice no longer being "heard" in her (brides' also).

They were given and entrusted with the oracles of God, including the ministry of Christ, but it would all be taken from them due to their unfaithfullness. 

This would align with Matt. 23 and His pronouncement of "desolation" upon Israel.

In 18:14-17, it speaks of the "fruits, riches, etc".

Paul in Rms. 11:12 says, "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world...the riches of the Gentiles...?" 

Eph 1:18, "...riches of the glory of his inheritance"; 2:7, "...exceeding riches of his grace"; 3:8, "...the unsearchable riches of Christ", etc., etc.

What if this description of losing all these riches is "timed" to the completed work of Christ, his death, burial and resurrection?

Then Babylon is being portrayed as apostate Israel.

It also answers one of the first questions I saw here regarding 18:24.

The beginning of the verse names the prophets and saints and includes "all" that were slain (understanding they were "all" righteous).

This is identical to Matthew 23:35, "That upon you may come "ALL" the RIGHTEOUS blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel...".   Abel was not a prophet, it may be argued that he was a "saint", but it is for certain that he was righteous!

So would this event in 18:23 identify with the "time-line" in Matt. 23 and therefore, again, the completed work of Christ?

In Mat. 21:33-41, "They" are portrayed as murderers from the beginning, culminating in the murder of Christ.  Here in the last verses Christ again makes the pronouncement against apostate Israel.

To me, this is Babylon. 

These are similarities between her and the historical Babylon;

1)  God ordained and instituted both "entities",
2)  The time came when it was used as a "refuge" for God's people, that they might continue to exist,
3)  In finality God judged Babylon, because of it's unfaithfullness, and destroyed it.

Strange how the natural somehow "mirrors" the eternal.

I know this is "off topic", but I do have one small question:  "If the church is "raptured" after the third chapter of Rev., how is it that Christs' birth, death and resurrection is portrayed in chapter 12?"  Sorry, I had to asik.

Bless all of you on that end,

Dan 

h sanford

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2007, 09:16:38 AM »
The home page of this web site seems to lead others to believe that this is a site teaching on the Eschatological view of Historical Amillenialism.  Now, Amillenialism may be what is believed (meaning - Rev. ch. 20's 1,000 reign is not literal but symbolic of a long period of time, and Christ's Kingdom has come, not will come in the future).  However, the teachings here are not from a Historical (Historicist) view.  The Historical view would line up with the Reformer's teaching. (meaning - Revelations can be  chopped into three time periods; 1. Some of Rev. was fulfilled during the times of Christ and the first church, 2.  Some of Rev. was fulfilled during the Reformation period with the Beast of Ch. 15 being the Roman Catholic Church and the False Prophet of ch. 15 being the consecutive Popes, 3. Some of Rev. will be fulfilled in the future, with the 2nd Coming of Christ.  The belief as a whole is that the seals represent the 1st church period, the trumpets (all but the 7th) represent the Reformation, and the bowls are future and represent the 2nd Coming of Christ. 

As far as I understand, this is not any view or teaching from this site.  This site lines up more with a Futurist view.  Dispensationalists beieve all of Rev. after ch. 3 is future and literal.  The only difference between a Dispensationalist and a Futurist then is that the Futurist says it is all in the future, but all of it is completely symbolic.  Both views hold that John was writing about a people and prophetic message that no one in his day would understand or see fullfilled for it is written about and to a people thousands of years in the future, hence their names Futurist or Dispensationalist (future Dispensation)

As for the Preterist view, there are two groups - the Full Preterist who believes all of scripture (including Rev.) has been fulfilled, including the 2nd Coming of Christ (blasphemy) and the Partial Preterist who believes that all prophecy has been fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD except for the 2nd Coming and Bodily Resurrection of the Saints. (all of Rev. fulfilled, except ch. 20-22 which prophecy of Kingdom reign of Chirst and 2nd Coming in unknown future)

I have found myself confronted with the questions I present to all of you.  Hernanuetically, do you believe that the Lord would not physically and literally judge the nation of Israel for crucifying His Son and not have prophecied this for all to know/show that Jesus is who He said He was, the Messiah, God in the flesh, the Son of God?  Do we not find that Deut. 28's cursings for the nation of Israel that God swore He would do to them if they did not obey Him, He fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel as a nation?  Isreal was always being disciplined by God. The whole Old Testament shows their wickedness, God's discipline, and a remnant's return to truth.  Then when the Son finally comes, the NT reveals His finality with the Nation as a whole, and His embracing of a people from all nations. 

How do we interpret the scriptures?  Do we not have to always remember that all of this was written to a specific people, in a specific time, and has only one interpretation? And to understand the interpretation (meaning of the scripture) we have to keep this in mind!  Although it only has one interpretation, its application extends throughout all generations.  Isn't this one of the reasons it is called the Living Word? 

 


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