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Author Topic: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church  (Read 12547 times)

Erik Diamond

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Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« on: January 19, 2007, 11:30:00 AM »
Hello,
 
Many of you agreed that Babylon the Great went back to slaying of Cain before she finally being judged by God near the end during the Great Tribulation Period. I have question:

Rev 18:24
  • And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


I understand that this harlot represents those who are unfaithful within the church (not the unsaved world), both in the old and new testament times. I can understand that she is responsible for the blood of prophets and saints.  But what I don't understand why she is also responsible for ALL that were slain upon the earth.  Does it means the slain of all the unsaved people in the world too?   

Or the word, 'earth' in verse 24 is actually represents corporate church like the beast coming out of the earth (Rev 13) or earth helped woman by shallowing the waters coming out of the mouth of Dragon (Rev 12)

Thanks,
Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2007, 11:50:17 AM »
Hello,
 
Many of you agreed that Babylon the Great went back to slaying of Cain before she finally being judged by God near the end during the Great Tribulation Period. I have question:

Rev 18:24
  • And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


I understand that this harlot represents those who are unfaithful within the church (not the unsaved world), both in the old and new testament times. I can understand that she is responsible for the blood of prophets and saints.  But what I don't understand why she is also responsible for ALL that were slain upon the earth.  Does it means the slain of all the unsaved people in the world too?   

Or the word, 'earth' in verse 24 is actually represents corporate church like the beast coming out of the earth (Rev 13) or earth helped woman by shallowing the waters coming out of the mouth of Dragon (Rev 12)

Thanks,
Erik


I think that this passage holds the answer.

 Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Note the wicked has their blood required at this unfaithful servant's hand. Same notice as saying that in her was found the blood of all on the earth. God is saying his unfaithful people are responsible because he gave them a commission and they had forsaken it. The unfaithful church has (just as the watchmen of Israel in Ezekiel), forsaken their calling to be a light unto the world. Therefore, God puts their blood on their hands.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 12:15:34 PM »
Quote
Note the wicked has their blood required at this unfaithful servant's hand. Same notice as saying that in her was found the blood of all on the earth. God is saying his unfaithful people are responsible because he gave them a commission and they had forsaken it. The unfaithful church has (just as the watchmen of Israel in Ezekiel), forsaken their calling to be a light unto the world. Therefore, God puts their blood on their hands.

Makes sense. 

Some people I know believe that Babylon the Great is secular empire or unsaved world such as Rome, etc.  But it is not true because the harlot was always 'within' church through false prophets over time.  Only that she is more manifest at the end during the Great Tribulation when God finally judges her to avenge His People. That is the only time that we are commanded to come out of her.  Yet I have struggled with people who insisted that Babylon the Great is some sort of secluar entities because of their mistreatments against the Saints.

Suppose not many people will accept the fact that church is Babylon and is falling. 

Erik

 

 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Reformer

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 12:33:31 PM »
Some people I know believe that Babylon the Great is secular empire or unsaved world such as Rome, etc.  But it is not true because the harlot was always 'within' church through false prophets over time.  Only that she is more manifest at the end during the Great Tribulation when God finally judges her to avenge His People.

The fall of Babylon cannot be the fall of any political empires, because scripture interprets scripture. Nations have risen and fallen countless times throughout history. But Babylon is a harlot, the unfaithful woman of prophecy, and when she falls she will never rise again, and is herself responsible for the blood of the prophets. That can only be the Church. Jesus said the same about the church in his day.

 Mt 23:34  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

The old tesatament church fell and will never rise again. Some say Israel will rise again some day to worship Christ, but they are dreaming. As the Pastor said in his article, "Jewish Dreams". It is the same with the new testament church. When it falls, it will never rise again. It is this babylon.


Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 04:08:05 PM »
Greetings Erik,

1Pe 5:13  The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Many historians believe that Peter was in Rome when he composed this letter to the pilgrims of the dispersion.  The uniform testimony of early church history is that Peter was in Rome at the end of his life, which is when it is believed that he wrote this letter.  There is no tradition that Peter ever visited (especially at or near the end of his life) Babylon, and in Peter's day historical records indicate that Babylon had very few inhabitants.  On the other hand, tradition consistently indicates that Peter spent the last years of his life in Rome.  As a center of idolatry, the term "Babylon" was an appropriate figurative designation for Rome (cf.  the later use of Babylon in Rev 17; 18).  Peter used other figurative expressions in this letter, and it is not surprising that he would do the same with Rome.  His mention of Mark (5:13) also fits this view because Mark was in Rome during Paul's first imprisonment (Col 4:10) 

If all this is true, and Peter was actually writing from Rome, then it would appear that Rome, or perhaps Jerusalem, which was under the authority of Roman Rule, or both, symbolizing anti-Christ, is referenced in symbolism by Peter as "Babylon."

Many Blessings
Sandy       

Reformer

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 04:18:36 PM »
True it is reformed "tradition" that Babylon is the Catholic Church, the great whore of Rome, but that's why we don't follow the tradition of churches. Be it Catholic or Reformed, historical or secular. We follow the Bible. That's why we don't come to the same terrible conclusions that others do. We believe the scripture interprets the scripture, not historians guessing about where Peter was.

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 06:43:43 PM »
Thank you Reformer.

I did explain to a friend of mine who is a pastor. His response is below:

Thanks for your thoughtful response.  You have given me much to think and pray about.  I appreciate your diligence and your desire for the truth, your knowledge of the scriptures and I more clearly understand the hermeneutic through which you interpret the scriptures--- “Scripture interprets scripture” is a fundamental reformed principle of exegesis—and a primary one.  I do not believe it is the only principle of solid exegesis however

Is it true that Scripture interprets Scripture is NOT the only principle of solid exegesis?

Erik
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2007, 08:04:39 PM »

Some say Israel will rise again some day to worship Christ, but they are dreaming. As the Pastor said in his article, "Jewish Dreams".


Reformer,

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but where did you obtain this information?  Is this from Scripture alone? 


Reformer

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2007, 08:15:14 PM »
“Scripture interprets scripture” is a fundamental reformed principle of exegesis—and a primary one.  I do not believe it is the only principle of solid exegesis however

Is it true that Scripture interprets Scripture is NOT the only principle of solid exegesis?

Erik


Well they have to say that. Otherwise, they won't be able to privately interpret it, and they can't revere the writings of reprobate men like Josephus, and they can't call Rome Babylon, or the nation of Israel God's Holy land today or the Locust of Revelation the tanks coming out of Russia. Their whole eschatology would fall apart if they had to confess God is sovereign to be the only one who can interpret His own word. That is why he has to say that.

 Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

These people seem to think God needs help interpreting his own word. But they are wrong. Scripture is the only interpreter of scripture. And that is the only reason why we know Rome is not the Babylon that is falling, and that there is no pre-tribulation rapture, and that man has no free will. Let God be true and every man a liar.

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2007, 08:31:45 PM »

Some say Israel will rise again some day to worship Christ, but they are dreaming. As the Pastor said in his article, "Jewish Dreams".


Reformer,

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but where did you obtain this information?  Is this from Scripture alone? 


 Of course, that's where we always get our information. You might try letting scripture interpret scripture someday, instead of your own beliefs and emotions.

 Lu 13:6  He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

 Mt 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

 Mt 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Sorry, but there isn't going to be anymore fruit growing in the nation Israel for ever! The kingdom has been taken from them, forever!  To this very day, that prophecy has remained true. Israel still hates Christ, and still is rejecting the stone.   But you can keep reading the left-behind books and pretend that man knows more than God about this if you like. See where that gets you.


Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2007, 01:56:29 PM »
Quote
Sorry, but there isn't going to be anymore fruit growing in the nation Israel for ever! The kingdom has been taken from them, forever!  To this very day, that prophecy has remained true. Israel still hates Christ, and still is rejecting the stone.   But you can keep reading the left-behind books and pretend that man knows more than God about this if you like. See where that gets you.

Reformer,

Can you show me where I have ever implied, or even outright stated that Israel, the nation, will one day once again have fruit growing?  Can you also show me where I have ever given the impression that the fictional Left-Behind series is where one might find true Bible prophecy? 

While it is true that Scripture does indeed interpret Scripture, it is not true that we cannot better understand many things written in the Bible by looking back (historical studies) at how the church defected from truth, and how she was infected by heretical teachings such as Gnostisim.  The Bible itself does not give us very much information to help us understand this particular form of heresy that was apparent in the churches even in the earliest churches.  But thanks to the writings of the early church fathers we can understand perfectly how this Gnostic interpretation of Scripture evolved, and why it was necessary for those early church fathers to come together to dispute this unbiblical doctrine, and show it for the heresy it is.  Many in this forum would be well served to research this herectical teaching because sadly a certain form of the Gnostic doctrine is very prevalent in this community.  Unless we learn from our past mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them...as is often stated here; "There is nothing new under the sun." 

Sandy          

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2007, 01:53:10 AM »
Hello Everyone,

While I believe that Babylon the Great represents corporate part of the church since the dawn of Man, not the World.  She is always a troublemaker inside church, both in the old and new testament.  But the question is when did Babylon 'BECOME" a habitation of the devils?

Rev 18:2-3
  • And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
  • For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Do you agree that 'become' the habitation of devils refers to Great Tribulation period when God gave up the corporate part of church (city) to Satan and his armies, per Revelation 11:2. This is when these people 'agreed' to rule with Beast for one hour and make Babylon like the world.

Peace,
Erik


"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Rose

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2007, 09:35:45 AM »

Rev 18:2-3
  • And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
  • For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Do you agree that 'become' the habitation of devils refers to Great Tribulation period when God gave up the corporate part of church (city) to Satan and his armies, per Revelation 11:2. This is when these people 'agreed' to rule with Beast for one hour and make Babylon like the world.


 I agree it's the fall of the church. But the language you use is different from the scripture.

 Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

 Who are they agreeing with? Isn't it with God? Is agree even a good translation?
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Sandy

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2007, 02:24:56 PM »
Hello Everyone,

While I believe that Babylon the Great represents corporate part of the church since the dawn of Man, not the World.  She is always a troublemaker inside church, both in the old and new testament.  But the question is when did Babylon 'BECOME" a habitation of the devils?

Rev 18:2-3
  • And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
  • For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Do you agree that 'become' the habitation of devils refers to Great Tribulation period when God gave up the corporate part of church (city) to Satan and his armies, per Revelation 11:2. This is when these people 'agreed' to rule with Beast for one hour and make Babylon like the world.

Peace,
Erik

Greetings Erik,

You will never discover when Babylon became the habitation of devils until you discover who/what Babylon truly represents.

In Rev 17 John is told he will see the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters.  This woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:  The woman is called MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.  This woman is drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

Where of the NT church can we find a description even remotely resembling this description of the great whore?  Instead what we find in the NT church saints being called the temple of God.  There is no description of the universal church being arrayed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold, and precious stones and pearls.  This is however EXACTLY what we find in the OT when we read the description of the OT temple.       

Ex 25:1   And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Ex 25:2  Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Ex 25:3  And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,
Ex 25:4  And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
Ex 25:5  And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,
Ex 25:6  Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,
Ex 25:7  Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
Ex 25:8  And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
Ex 25:9  According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

And where in the NT do we find the universal church referred to as an abomination of the earth?  There aren’t even any verses that show the universal church is ever called an abomination unto God.  Not even the dead church in Sardis (Rev 3:1), yet we find in the OT many such references to abomination being committed in Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.   

Mal 2:4  And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:5  My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
Mal 2:6  The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
Mal 2:7  For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8  But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:9  Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Mal 2:10  Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Mal 2:11  Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
Mal 2:12  The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.

Mal 2:17  Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

Christ condemns the covetous Pharisees, and calls them an abomination in the sight of God.  Are there any verses where God calls the universal church an abomination in the sight of God?   

Lu 16:14  And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Lu 16:15  And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The woman is drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.  This is why Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees (Jews) that they, not the universal church are responsible for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.  Does it sound like Christ is speaking of the universal church here?

Mt 23:34  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35  That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mt 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Many Blessings,
Sandy

Erik Diamond

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Re: Israel, Babylon, Jerusalen and the Church
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2007, 04:58:12 PM »
Quote
I agree it's the fall of the church. But the language you use is different from the scripture.

 Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

 Who are they agreeing with? Isn't it with God? Is agree even a good translation?

Rev 17:12  And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13  These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

For one hour, the ten kings, aka false prophets, will give their church to the beast. This is the agreement that God allows their kingdom unto the beast, so that kingdom shall fall into desolation.

Peace,
Erik
 
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 


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